Post by: surfcowboy on March 13, 2017, 12:57:28 PM
Thanks to supUK for convincing me to start sanding, to Pono for his matching love of science and disregard for good sense, and surffoils for reminding me that a bodyboard is a lot easier to fall off of than a SUP. ;)
This thread sponsored by Wile E Coyote.
Now, let's get into it.
Yes, I know it's huge. I can always cut it but adding wood is so much harder. It's scientifically designed by having a piece of wood this size. About 24" X 12". I wanted to see if the fore/aft stability of 12" would work with a body board but I'll be taking a bolt on fuselage and tail to stabilize it at the beach if this doesn't prove wide enough front to back to balance on.
I can also move it up and back as my board is a wood paipo so that should make on the fly adjustments at the beach easy as well. (Taking a buddy to assist, hold tools, and maybe film in case America's Funniest Home Videos or Red Bull, depending on the success or failure, is paying.)
The mount will likely need some beefing up and I'll also probably want to be able to stabilize it fore and aft so I can adjust the angle of attack. I'm thinking of using a threaded rod near the tail between the board and wing with nuts to adjust the AOA. I'm just sealing it with polyurethane for the tests so I can hack it up if/when I mod it.
I'd assume that after the first session I'll be cutting this down to about 6" and using the fuselage, but this rig will also accommodate a wider disc if I want to make one for single foil testing as we have discussed on the surffoils thread but this is sort of a mashup of his ideas, Terry Hendricks and then the GoFoil stuff if/when I add a tail.
The last shot is a mock up, I'm going to cut down the Paipo and then play with my balance point til I find a starting place.
What are you waiting on boys? Quit reading and start sanding!
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll197/cowboysurf/cowboy%20foil/44664A78-213B-49D1-A2CD-442597884145_zpssagwmnwg.jpg)
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll197/cowboysurf/cowboy%20foil/39B86AC4-053F-4DCD-AB92-4D00429CE621_zpsnc3hbyqi.jpg)
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll197/cowboysurf/cowboy%20foil/3423403D-B0FB-4B50-9902-C652AA1E74C5_zpsqys3xaoo.jpg)
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll197/cowboysurf/cowboy%20foil/929698B8-D76E-4F25-B3AF-43EFD76DBDEE_zpswcgf91gg.jpg)
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll197/cowboysurf/cowboy%20foil/01355CC6-F566-4580-8463-C5644E7DB140_zpsbuyrylxn.jpg)
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll197/cowboysurf/cowboy%20foil/9CF9D74B-6CDF-407B-B14B-0C8D7627CA04_zps9a45edbu.jpg)
Post by: SURFFOILS on March 13, 2017, 02:57:54 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on March 13, 2017, 03:44:12 PM
Also looking for more aluminum to make a longitudinal foil set as well. I'm curious as to how small I can go on those.
Post by: SURFFOILS on March 13, 2017, 04:26:18 PM
Keep the supports in the middle of the chord and set itparrallel to the hull, no extra AOA needed, you'll find it's easier to control if the foil and hull are the same angle.
I mount with the TE 2-3" short of the end of the board for safety.
You will have great fore/aft balance becuase you feet will provide stability.
Looking forward to hearing how much you love it.
Post by: surfcowboy on March 13, 2017, 05:44:26 PM
I have a buddy who's a blacksmith so I'm going to get him to help me make some thicker aluminum struts so I can have a nice set in time.
I'm gonna go cut that Paipo down now and see if I can get this thing mounted and stiff enough to surf.
Post by: supuk on March 13, 2017, 06:00:55 PM
You can, should, willfoilcrash :P on that easily, no problem.
Post by: SURFFOILS on March 13, 2017, 06:10:20 PM
Even on waves that don't break you'll still lift up, it's about the area and the speed so you could paddle for knee high ripples and it will work.
For years I used this 2 mm Al flat plate struts up to 4" high and 3mm for up to 8" high just like in the pic below and 3/4" wood screws. Don't even need to foil the struts, just take any edge off.
You don't need 'bulletproof',Go light and cheap and the shorter the struts the less dynamic forces on them.
Post by: PonoBill on March 13, 2017, 07:07:41 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on March 13, 2017, 07:38:29 PM
Pono I figure I over did it but you know the deal there, I can always tune down. Also wanting to not have to get into too hollow of a wave to test.
I'm working on a safety feature that will need some collaboration I'm sure as well. I think I have a way to cut down the "tomahawk effect" of the wing foils.
Can't wait to see the GF2. That may be the down wind machine that finally makes LA fun.
Post by: Admin on March 14, 2017, 09:36:55 AM
Will you use bodyboard fins?
Post by: surfcowboy on March 14, 2017, 03:08:40 PM
But seriously, I swim in the surf a good bit actually. When it's too big at a beach break for me to SUP or surf even I'll throw on fins and go play in the waves. I also have a couple of buddies who I bodysurf and bodyboard with at least once a month in the summer.
My testing protocol will be:
Drag/swim that thing just outside.
Point it straight in.
Kick like hell.
Hang on and explore fore/aft balance which mostly means trying not to go over the bars and having to make use of my helmet.
I might try to take a bolt on fuselage and tail to see if that changes anything (Hey, while I'm out and wearing a helmet kooking it up anyway might as well gather some data.)
Then I'll probably grab a longboard and try to salvage some of my dignity at my local break before I roll out my next project...
Desert Camo Surf Mat! (Yeah, I'm starting one of those too, waiting on my glue to get here.)
I'm a late bloomer, I have to make up for lost time by surfing literally anything. If I make it to Maui this summer I might even get on a surfski with Headmount. I've clearly lost my mind.
Post by: Admin on March 14, 2017, 03:41:01 PM
You have an impressive start there.
I was asking about the fins because it seems like the tops of the fins would/could still have water contact when foiling at that height and would act as your trim controls.
Post by: surfcowboy on March 14, 2017, 06:10:39 PM
I will say that I'm not sure my brackets will hold (that's tonight's project) so I might add a central flat piece of something to hold the foil at the flat AOA. If I do that, it and the 2 brackets should be pretty strong "fins" to keep it running straight.
I think turning this beast may be impossible but that's ok, I just want to see if I can lift off and then I'll move to the next test. Hoping to have this thing in the water this weekend.
Post by: Admin on March 15, 2017, 03:55:13 AM
(http://mypaipoboards.org/hydrofoil/JOEL2.JPG)
Post by: Bean on March 15, 2017, 11:18:56 AM
Post by: SURFFOILS on March 15, 2017, 11:57:02 AM
Turning it will be easy,it's only a single foil and will pivot around that COG easily, in fact without your feet dragging it will be quite unstable in yaw.
If take the fins for extra kick into the wave and becuase you're new to foiling,if you kick outta some point and kick into the foil you won't be happy. Consider the fins to be safety equipment.
Even at a low speed , that's a foil with big lift.
Post by: surfcowboy on March 16, 2017, 12:47:29 AM
The aluminum is also more than strong enough when screwed into the board and wing. I have just over 7" to the water. I'm sealing it up with some spar varnish and hoping to test this weekend if I can get a buddy to assist/film/laugh at, me.
I'll shoot pics in the am if I can.
Post by: SURFFOILS on March 16, 2017, 02:32:55 AM
Even at low speed you're going up in the world !!
You'll be bustin' a move like this up the beach after !!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=otCpCn0l4Wo
Maybe wait until you get home...
But it feels like this especially the speed when you're prone, you really are flying.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zsXCs41DkWs
Post by: stoneaxe on March 16, 2017, 06:17:33 AM
Post by: surfcowboy on April 02, 2017, 04:35:02 PM
I added a stabilizer up front ( thank you DW) but I'm pretty sure I don't need it.
Caught a couple thigh high mushy waves and like Dave Kalama says, pushed the nose down and it went. I could steer and went down the line into the unbroken face. Super stable.
Mods for next trip. Cut the wingspan down so I can paddle with my arms. Get more padding on the deck and wax it up again to make some speed before the wave tosses me into it.
Work out my hamstrings. Wow I haven't swam with fins for months.
Finally, test without the stabilizer and yes... get some pics.
I fully kooked it with a full face motocross helmet for safety. But I don't think I need it going forward, the foil stays in the water pretty well and if you let go, as you know, you can fade into the wave pretty easily. Still, glad I did it for the inaugural run. I'm doing it for boat training when I get a taller foil.
I also checked in with the lifeguard since I was alone and let him know that while I was crazy, I wasn't that crazy. He was pretty stoked and curious. We talked after and he encouraged me to get it into bigger waves so it could really get going.
All in all, a moderate success and yes, it doesn't take much to get foiling. Btw, my stabilizer is a flat aluminum plate.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170402/a386aef4a301b66915b97719315b0d41.jpg)
Post by: SURFFOILS on April 02, 2017, 07:44:03 PM
Told ya ! So easy and you don't need all the carbon, just a piece of ply will do.
So glad that you had fun and experienced foiling, I think you can ditch the canard and the helmet.
Because of the way a foil is shaped it doesn't want to keep going once you've fallen but I always hang on to a prone foil. It can't get you if you're on the other side of the board !
You can cut the foil down to 16 inches wide, even more once you've graduated from The Foil Academy.LLC. 8)
And that ply looks about 1/2 in thick, But you can go to 6mm with glass on both sides and it's superfast.
If you take a leap of faith and try a longer foil say 24 long by 13 wide you'll see how the change in dimensions changes the performance.
Once again, I'm so glad you had fun at a reasonable price. It's a blast isn't it ?
Post by: surfcowboy on April 02, 2017, 08:45:41 PM
I'm gonna hack on it a bit to get it a bit more narrow and also get a more buoyant board.
Also gotta get a trip to the metal yard to find more bracket material. I'm thinking there are some longitudinal foils in my testing future as well.
Thanks for the help señor foils, uK, Pono and all the guys who pitched in.
Now, what to mount under a SUP?
Post by: PonoBill on April 02, 2017, 09:09:30 PM
Post by: SURFFOILS on April 03, 2017, 12:49:42 AM
No 1 board is a standard bodyboard with painted ply strips top and bottom with thin bolts holding them. The wooden strips are an easy way of screwing struts to the board and moving them back and forth.
Board 2 is a 1 inch thick wooden paipo with 20 mm foam floor tiles glued on.
Board 3 is an EPS epoxy prone board with fin boxes to hold the struts.
Board 4 is a snapped surfboard with fin boxes.
If you're thinking of making your own all of these versions work equally well.
Post by: Admin on April 03, 2017, 05:16:01 AM
Well Boys. It works.
Awesome. This is fun to watch.
Post by: Bean on April 03, 2017, 06:07:09 AM
Post by: stoneaxe on April 20, 2017, 09:27:28 AM
Post by: surfcowboy on April 26, 2017, 03:59:24 AM
Can't wait to get back to the garage and the ocean. I have my padding and a plan to cut down the wings which should get me a better (well, at least different) result..
More to come.
Post by: surfcowboy on May 06, 2017, 10:01:08 AM
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Post by: blackeye on May 06, 2017, 12:12:04 PM
Ok it's raining.That's my then 5 year old's logic! She couldn't go swimming because it was raining out! Yeah, getting wet when in the water sucks. ;) We all had a good laugh about that.
I know what you mean though.
Post by: surfcowboy on May 06, 2017, 03:08:30 PM
But I got the sides cut down so it's 12" X 18" now and I can paddle with my arms to get I earlier. Also put a grey shop floor foam deck pad on it just so it floats a bit more and so no one will think I'm fancy. ;)
Next trip I gotta get some footage of this thing.
Post by: blackeye on May 06, 2017, 06:21:09 PM
Oh man, out here it means, poop in the ocean from runoff. People ruin everything.Ah, cultural/geo differences. Didn't think of poop. I envy your sun. I don't have poop concerns. Except in False Creek. Probably should in Deep Cove and Eagle Harbour when its super warm.
Post by: surfcowboy on May 13, 2017, 06:43:43 PM
Ok I cut it down to 18" wide. It's still 12" front to back. Works great and I can paddle to get into the wave.
I learned something today about why surffoils video looks like it does. When you are in the whitewater on a wave the foil doesn't lift as much and so you are flying, you can feel it, but you are really just barely off the water. When you're in the green part of the wave you lift off fine and man is it fast. I outran the wave a couple of times.
I'll be out with friends soon and get some video. I suspect it won't be staggering since you're laying in the water, but the feeling is super fun and way smoother than a boogie board. No bounce.
Next step is to try with no stabilizer. I'm pretty sure I don't need it with my legs dragging to keep me balanced.
Post by: surfcowboy on May 27, 2017, 02:29:57 PM
Here you go. I understand now why surfoils shots are hard to understand. With 6" of lift it's hard to see the space but that board is 1" thick so it's not out of that wave due to buoyancy. I'll try to get some video up later but I wanted to get this up for all the guys who've been asking. 12"x18" lifts pretty well on a knee high wave.
Post by: TallDude on May 27, 2017, 03:24:03 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170527/061a17aff3ae99398f106c07354e4af6.jpg)Looks like fun Cowboy. I think you're onto something that could replace the boogie board.... Something a mom could fold up and put in her beach bag, but the kids will want. Of course the dads will need a dad size version.
Here you go. I understand now why surfoils shots are hard to understand. With 6" of lift it's hard to see the space but that board is 1" thick so it's not out of that wave due to buoyancy. I'll try to get some video up later but I wanted to get this up for all the guys who've been asking. 12"x18" lifts pretty well on a knee high wave.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Post by: surfcowboy on May 27, 2017, 09:33:30 PM
Maybe one of those oval foils that's flat instead of foiled? But also I sort of need to get to work on a Clearwater kit.
Post by: supuk on May 28, 2017, 03:26:34 AM
Post by: SURFFOILS on May 28, 2017, 03:31:03 AM
Post by: supuk on May 28, 2017, 03:52:35 AM
Post by: SURFFOILS on May 30, 2017, 03:42:02 PM
One of the simplest foil arrangements is having a canard style where the smaller font section sets the height for the rear foil. It's also how to get a foil that carves on a steep wave face at any speed. I don't think ive every gone over 25 mph, if you measure out 8 yards or metres it's a lot of ground to cover. I focus on the 5-20 mph range.
Post by: surfcowboy on May 30, 2017, 11:28:56 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on October 09, 2017, 09:55:02 AM
I'm thinking the Clearwater is probably fine for behind a boat but I can't get info or video of anyone flying one on a wave. They simply look too thin to fly at slow speed.
I considered adding a layer to the bottom, like Pono, only for thickness as well as chord length but then I kept hearing UK tell me to just get some materials and start chopping, so here goes.
Starting with those of you who know such things, I wanted to ask about the thickness towards the ends of my foil. Should I thin it out more or keep the thickness more to the ends to maintain lift when turning? Should I buck the trend to test something for us?
Here are the 2D drawings I'm starting from, again, these are rough but looking at the profile to see if I should keep that thickness further out or not. What says the peanut gallery?
The red line on the template is my guess at the thickest part of the foil.
Also included is a layup to lam up some 3/4 birch plywood to get a piece thick enough for the anhedral. Again, just showing the theory, not an exact scale drawing yet. Might make them all full thickness and then cut the arc with a series of circular or table saw cuts to get the wood out of there quickly and save an hour of grinding. I'll link a YouTube video of a guy doing that.
Post by: surfcowboy on October 09, 2017, 09:58:27 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE49vhNcMK4
Also, I can get 1" plywood here, should I maybe go to a 2" thick foil or 1 3/4"?
Post by: supuk on October 09, 2017, 10:54:27 AM
Post by: surfcowboy on October 09, 2017, 05:30:49 PM
I was concerned about being able to glass it heavy enough. If I got a little carbon in there, what would you consider a decent layup schedule?
Post by: Blackrat on October 10, 2017, 02:22:44 AM
If I may add my 2c :-)
I'd recommend keeping the wing flat with no dihedral , firstly as it's a more stable platform and secondly it's much easier to keep your profile shape consistent along the span
Id also use a profile with a small amount of camber this is great for low speed
A profile with about 13% max thickness will be great
Post by: surfcowboy on October 10, 2017, 05:38:25 PM
So flat foil, let's say 24" with an 8" chord.
Does the 13% refer to the distance of the max thickness from the leading edge?
Also, on the camber, should I just shape that in with a round sander maybe? Like the rear bottom 3-4"?
I'm a fan of simpler to start but I was worried about the lack of anhedral making it weird when it turns. Ias a beginner I wanted easy to learn on. 'm assuming that you are pointing out that I likely won't be turning anytime soon lol. ;) but thank you. That's worth a lot more than .02
Post by: surfcowboy on October 21, 2017, 10:21:43 AM
Pono, I'm going to see if I can find some Sintra or order a test piece. I'm using closed cell polyurethane sculpture foam, easily had here in film studio world for my tests now. With the really strong layup I'm not sure that pink Home Depot foam wouldn't work since it'd be hard to delam that thick of a skin but better safe, for now.
Starting with set of naca guides to cut an 8" x 24" x 1.5" flat wing to learn to cut. I'll glass anything that looks passable. I'm working on a weird template idea to get a decent rough curved shape out of a hot wire cutter that could then be sanded a little. Trying to move the home builders forward a little where I can.
If that works, I'll post up and start a mast. Probably
If not I'll keep an eye on the tests of the Clearwater and just make something to drag behind a boat and learn on.
Post by: blackeye on October 21, 2017, 11:46:41 AM
Q: Can your tools be used to cut polyurethane foam? (sold as upholstery foam and “poly foam”)
A: Polyurethane foam should not be cut with hot wire tools. It needs a ton of heat, gives off toxic fumes, and leaves a lot of melted plastic wherever it is cut. We recommend that the polyurethane foams only be cut with a blade or saw.
Post by: PonoBill on October 21, 2017, 03:00:08 PM
Best way to cut a long blank like a wing is with two people, each holding a handle. nail a plywood template to each end and go smoothly. Pretty easy to do with two reasonably attentive people. I tried it once with my wife and it was horrid ("Don't yell, you're going too fast, my end isn't on the template, you keep pulling down"), but almost anyone else works fine. I have a four foot bow, but I prefer the two person method.
Post by: supuk on October 21, 2017, 03:12:28 PM
Post by: jrandy on October 21, 2017, 06:18:12 PM
There was also a posting on Sway's where the blank was stood on end so the shaper could cut the rocker solo with gravity assist.
Post by: surfcowboy on October 21, 2017, 08:08:17 PM
Need a bigger PSU for sure doing some googling now on that.
This is what I have, it's not like a surfboard blank for sure, way lighter.
https://foammart.com/p-1201-sculpture-2lb.aspx
Post by: PonoBill on October 21, 2017, 09:00:42 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on October 21, 2017, 09:04:21 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on October 22, 2017, 02:05:45 PM
8" chord and about 1.5" thick. Here are some options. The first is a straight by the book Clark-YM from airfoils site that is 1 1/4" (1.25") thick.
I'm favoring B which is that one blown up to 1.5 with the thickest part moved slightly forward. C is also 1.5" but with a little concave in the back (which I don't really want to shape into anything but a flat foil due to complexity.
Thoughts on B? as a starting point?
Post by: surfcowboy on October 22, 2017, 04:51:22 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on October 26, 2017, 09:09:10 PM
Made templates tonight and a sanding/shaping jig that, if it works, I'll post up pics of. Hot Wire seemed too much hassle to get right so I used the principle, a jig that guides the wire, to make a sanding jig that guides a 3' long flat sanding board with 1' of aggressive sandpaper (50 grit?) in the center. You can slide the sandpaper back and forth to cover the 24" span without either side coming off of the jig. The foil templates make up the sides and guide the sanding board.
If it doesn't work, it'll make a good Hotwire guide... or firewood.
Next up, design mast templates and layup. That should be interesting too.
Post by: supuk on October 27, 2017, 02:37:15 AM
Post by: surfcowboy on October 27, 2017, 08:13:06 PM
Side question, did your wife also know, like mine, that she'd be called upon to help with random projects? Mine has sprad resin, pulled cloth and all sorts of surf-related stuff. Now looks like she'll be pulling a wire cutter too.
Post by: supuk on October 27, 2017, 11:53:37 PM
Post by: blackeye on October 28, 2017, 01:29:04 PM
Sorry I forgot to post the picture of the hot wire jig, this way is great for cutting multiples or if you want accurate cuts but you can just nail them straight to the blank. If you put markets on each template at 1/4 1/2 3/4 it helps judge your speed at ether end and it's a lot easier with two people. You can set up a pivoting arm that pulls everything through at the right speed but they can be a bitch to get right and no point for quick 1 off things. For your hot wire just use some nicrome wire and a 12v car or bike battery and resistor if you need to adjust the temp
I see you must do top and bottom surfaces separately with two templates. I used one complete foil template, but yeah, the transition between top and bottom was tricky, even with two people.
I'm trying to visualize your process. The cut-line of your two templates must hover above a standard reference point, so that when you attach the bottom template after doing the top, it aligns correctly. Or do you just eyeball the lower template such that it lines up with the leading and trailing edges already cut from the top? You must have to allow for the kerf on the bottom one, which I have found to be wire temperature dependent. You could make a convex bottom template, mate the top section with its cut-off scrap, flip it over and wire with no worries about the kerf. Then imperfections you could sand away rather than have to fill.
The alignment with my method was by dead reckoning: I squared up the blank as best I could, then measured and marked my pin-holes from the edges. I pinned the templates to the foam with 2" deck screws. I cut about 4 pairs and was happy with 1. I cut them long so I could cut them in half and get symmetrical Port and Starboard sections. My foil wasn't tapered except for the tips.
I found that I got the best cut by starting in the middle and cutting towards the trailing edge, then repeat towards the leading edge, flipping it over and doing the other side the same way. The imperfections in the cut from starting the wire are easier to smooth out over the flattish areas of the foil rather than the edges. I see your method provides a lead-in / run-out from the template, which would be really handy.
Cowboy - as for A, B, or C, if it comes out generally resembling one of those, or an amalgam of all of them, be thrilled!
Post by: surfcowboy on October 28, 2017, 09:30:25 PM
I actually need to post a pic of mine. I mounted the templates with an overhang. The bottom trailing edge is flat so I just hung the first 2" over the edge of the board so I can go around the front.
I'll post up in the am.
Post by: supuk on October 29, 2017, 01:10:23 AM
Post by: surfcowboy on November 05, 2017, 05:50:46 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171106/dab6e6daa40918f0a98452d91ad9678d.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171106/b0ef8ad47a80ec34d3f17ee145bc9b6d.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171106/8782a4d38760a963ac2a751ebb050717.jpg)
That's just a demo piece of EPS but tonight I made a prototype out of the sculpture foam.
I'll post that up if this works.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: surfcowboy on November 05, 2017, 06:08:30 PM
Here's the idea for any who want to make a flat foil.
Put a 24"x8.5"x2" piece of foam in and roughed it in with a saw blade.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171106/7d291c43dc712dd387a52db2e37123f6.jpg)
Here you can see the sanding block. I stiffened a 1x4 with a vertical stringer of 1x2.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171106/4122546718a9ba1b459c6480180856fd.jpg)
There's just over a foot on each end so it rides on the foil templates.
Sand a little holding the foam in place on a rubber no slip mat and you get this.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171106/e2c00d1d3eb11ebb1b339b226217b85f.jpg)
The only challenge is that the sculpt foam bows up (the wrong way sadly or I'd keep it lol)
I think I'm going to get some 2" EPS this week and knock one out.
In good news, if I want anhedral it'd be easy to glass this over a form and get whatever bend I want.
At 1.5" thick (38mm) thus thing should fly sloooow.
Now, to design and cut my mast and fuselage and do some glassing tests.
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Post by: supuk on November 06, 2017, 01:30:05 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on November 06, 2017, 06:14:39 PM
This will be my first bagging so I want to make it simple to start.
One thing I'm working out is the mount of the wing onto the fuselage and since I'm not 100% on the angle I'm thinking I'll glue on some foam and route a flat spot into the top of the wing with a jig so I have a flat place to bolt the fuselage onto. I'll do the glass fibers and epoxy fill so I can drill and bolt through the wing. That'll let me add shims if I need to get it level as I'm not really sure what "level" is on a wing.
Do I call the flat bottom level or use the straight line from the airfoils site? That seems imprecise to me.
By the way, the rest of this forum needs to start building some foils. It's just you and me now that Pono has gone to Maui. Some of you inland guys need to make some for next summer behind a buddy's boat!
Post by: supuk on November 07, 2017, 03:06:55 AM
For the mount between wing and fuzz you have a few options but you want it to be solid! The torsional stiffness is the key. The 3d printed tubes I have been using bonded into the core and glass over has worked a treat and means your not relying on just the bolts.
you want to take your airfoil centerline from the center of the leading edge to the trailing edge. set the fuz parallel with that and then with a inverted foil on the rear about +2deg incidence on the rear wing.
Post by: surfcowboy on November 07, 2017, 08:20:40 PM
As to the mount, I hadn't thought about the 3D printing idea. I might also go check my buddy's industrial hardware store for some sort of metal coupler that I could glass in to standardize the mount. Or carbon tubes or rod like a paddle handle might be a way to go with bolts through them. I'd need to reinforce most tubes I'm betting, but it's an idea and would fit nicely. Hmm.. time for some googling here.
Post by: supuk on November 07, 2017, 11:57:55 PM
I would also think about your fuz at the same time and what you are going to do with that to get the torsional stiffness to translate from the board all the way to the front wing. Its is just as important to get the connections between the components solid as it is them selfs's. even a .5mm tolerance at the connection of the wing right in the center translates into a large amount of movement at the wing tip so make it a good fit.
Post by: surfcowboy on November 08, 2017, 12:46:39 AM
I'm going to use thin plywood as they mention in the seabreeze article, 3 layers if I can get good quality 3mm. Then use glass (or carbon?) between the layers. Then, after shaping it down, some 45° and 0° carbon on the outside with a few layers of glass over that.
One thing I'd considered as well is to route 2 or three channels into the inner ply, maybe like 1cm wide, which would give me some channels to laminate in so that the glass/carbon would have "U" channels like people do on the rails of a board. I figure that those carbon channels would help stiffen the laminated unit. You think that's overkill or something worth doing?
That's the weird thing about the Clearwater kits. I can't see that mast being stiff enough to not be a bit loose from twisting with just wood and glass.
Post by: supuk on November 08, 2017, 01:38:21 AM
Post by: surfcowboy on November 08, 2017, 07:59:48 PM
I think I have a plan to mount the wing with some carbon tube salvaged from a cheap paddle. Slide the smaller tube over the front of the fuselage and embed the larger tube into a routed channel in the wing with the glass and some bog. I can then bolt bottom to top through the tube and wing. (I'm doing your epoxy fill for the bolt areas on the wing and to tie the top and bottom together.
Post by: surfcowboy on November 09, 2017, 08:19:31 PM
The inner slide will go over the front of the fuselage to make sure it’s strong enough to hold.
I’ll drill out bolt holes and fill the area around them with epoxy and filler and fibers to tie the top and bottom together and give me 2 or 3 strong points to bolt it all together.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171110/6926197de5dc9dc35fe3aeb99d32edf2.jpg)
Post by: surfcowboy on November 10, 2017, 06:17:34 PM
I cut my profiles out rough and I’ll finish them with a sander and/or router after laminating it together.
Seems like 3 ply with glass between and carbon and glass on the outside is the idea for now. Should get stuff enough. I also chose to make the mast and fuse all in one now to hopefully add some strength and avoid one more joint.
For the fuselage I’m adding 2 more plies. I think that’ll get me to about 1.5 inches with the carbon and glass laid on.
Now, I’ve got to see about a bagging rig for a single project. (UK don’t try to sway me into a big real rig, I’ve got way too many tools as it is lol.)
At least this will let me test some stuff and materials are pretty cheap at this size.
Hoping to cut an eps wing this weekend.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171111/fe00a6c501bb39bde3418c018b732db2.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171111/bcdaa8576eec22752fbaff203d475769.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171111/4a733738adab6297ff99b83ab06ce44e.jpg)
Post by: blackeye on November 12, 2017, 02:02:25 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on November 12, 2017, 06:56:42 PM
Yes, but just a layer of 4oz. You think resin only will be as stiff? I really don't want flex.
I have carbon at 0° and 45° for the outside with glass over that for sanding
Post by: TallDude on November 12, 2017, 10:10:26 PM
Looking cool Cowboy!
Post by: supuk on November 13, 2017, 12:09:44 AM
Post by: surfcowboy on November 13, 2017, 07:45:23 AM
Post by: blackeye on November 13, 2017, 10:19:49 PM
Thank God you posted, I was beginning to think only U.K. Could see my posts. Lol
Yes, but just a layer of 4oz. You think resin only will be as stiff? I really don't want flex.
I have carbon at 0° and 45° for the outside with glass over that for sanding
I'm a bodger compared to most on this site. The last tube I made is a grotesque mess. I came up with an inquistional device to free it from its mandrel and largely destroyed both pieces.
I did manage to help a friend rebuild his sailboat's rudder. I proposed a scheme, he ground out the damage, we applied carbon goodness, vac bagged, he sanded, and the pintles fit back on beautifully. Couldn't believe it. My reputation somewhat elevated.
2x4 oz layer on the inside of plywood layers will do about nothing. 1x4 on each outside a whole lot more with the same weight.
Post by: surfcowboy on November 15, 2017, 06:07:04 PM
I think I have my bagging setup decided on as well so probably do a test wing layup soon as well.
Post by: surfcowboy on December 02, 2017, 11:18:53 AM
That’ll get me pretty close to flat (at least in shim distance) and maybe perfect when I’m paddling.
Thoughts?
Also, stay flat to bottom or try to flatten it in my sinking the front a bit more? I’m thinking flat and shin if I have to for simplicity.
What say guys?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171202/e1a1b4eac168a29fc9f9311ef4c7601b.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171202/30c284ab8468e18f7621c669bef1e8eb.jpg)
Post by: supuk on December 02, 2017, 01:18:51 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on December 02, 2017, 02:03:11 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on December 11, 2017, 09:13:11 PM
Got my mast pieces all cleaned up. Made one solid one and then used a trim router to make the others match. I made an extra one so I can keep the template and make others if this one works well.
Time to glue these up and grind em to shape.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171212/ec9c88f5a78f7faf1ad9293a71806780.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171212/2758d716477187cec2a2c379879f2359.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171212/abc8f43bf6ed8c8ddba8d4493d5486a8.jpg)
Post by: supuk on December 12, 2017, 11:41:29 AM
Post by: surfcowboy on December 12, 2017, 07:14:19 PM
I was considering 24" x 8" (61cm x 20cm) but now seeing all the giant wings I'm wondering if I should go wider? I do have a really thick profile (almost 4cm) 1.5 inches so I think it'll be fine at slow speed for me.
Think that's wide enough for learning on a flat wing? I guess I should just keep it simple and build it lol.
I don't think I can surf this weekend so hoping to shape and maybe start to laminate the wing.
Post by: clay on December 12, 2017, 08:03:36 PM
I'm digging your diy foil build, and taking studious notes so I can jump off the fence and start building some.
Post by: surfcowboy on December 12, 2017, 08:08:12 PM
The good news is that if I build one that works at all, anyone can do it because I'm taking the low tech approach for this one on principle. If I can do this for $200 and some nights and weekends then more folks can foil. If not, it'll still be spectacular lol.
I do think that U.K. Is pioneering some cool stuff with the 3D printing too. We are really holding down both ends of the tech spectrum.
I was wondering if anyone was watching this "paint drying" pace build lol
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: blackeye on December 14, 2017, 11:08:53 PM
I was wondering if anyone was watching this "paint drying" pace build lol
I am. keep it up.
I've got a project that's 3.5 years in so far. Not public yet and might never be. Other things and ideas intercede. And work, and kids, and...
My latest obsession is that I want to build a proa. A harryproa. One of these http://harryproa.com/?p=1751 or one of these http://harryproa.com/?p=1755 . But he has moved on and is developing something super cool but out of my league: http://harryproa.com/?p=424
Post by: surfcowboy on December 15, 2017, 12:22:15 AM
Post by: supuk on December 15, 2017, 03:13:34 AM
Post by: blackeye on December 16, 2017, 10:06:06 AM
Supuk have a look at the Hobie Trifoiler - way ahead of its time. Ketterman solved the foil AOA issue with those little skis out front. And what's cool with his system is that the leeward side lifts and the windward one pulls down for flat cornering at 25kn plus.
Question: Why don't kites use two-way foils so they don't have to tack or gybe the board? I would think the barrier to getting into foiling would be lower and it would suit your average joe kiter.
Post by: supuk on December 16, 2017, 12:49:03 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on December 16, 2017, 01:52:01 PM
I'm playing around with my ghetto bag system and learning about leaks ;).
Next up is to route the bottom of my 7'5" Simmons to take the foil.
Like I thought, a bruised toe does wonders for my builds.
Post by: surfcowboy on December 17, 2017, 05:56:22 PM
Got the keel foiled today and a wing made out of EPS. I’m ready to seal the wing and get my mount set in.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171218/c3138ca92e98b974732ea1cae19ac733.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171218/cee3805f30255e44f7140f2c50e996b7.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171218/deb9a73a95e2933655ce01e18be91cde.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171218/80ec3c2638c3a0435dc9b1281324ec2b.jpg)
Post by: supuk on December 18, 2017, 12:04:14 AM
Post by: surfcowboy on December 18, 2017, 06:45:51 PM
The fuselage is def getting rounded but I wanted to get the front wing mount sorted. I'll also taper it a bit towards the back as well. I have to say, I'm impressed with the stiffness of 3 layers of 1/4" ply. Not stiff enough, just yet but I'm now convinced that a couple layers of carbon and some glass will make it able to handle a wing.
Every step makes it easier to do the next for sure.
Post by: surfcowboy on December 23, 2017, 08:11:57 PM
Took the fuselage down around the edges too. I’m curious about my mount idea. The post part that will go into the wing will slide over the front of the fuselage. I’m going to cut it down to as close to the inner diameter so it’s solid. Then I’m going to fill in the extra with an epoxy putty/bog to make it solid.
On the wing I’ll have a receiver tube cut from a carbon paddle and I’ll reinforce it as I mount it into the top of the wing. I’m drilling holes top to bottom and put bolts in. I’m worried about stressing the bolts so I’ll probably add a thin layer of epoxy to the insert and sand it just til it’s tight to help share the load with the bolts.
We shall see. If not, it’s only fiberglass and I got more epoxy. ;)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171224/b6004781b47a4d83d6f5f60114fd9a42.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171224/b6c1679f539c509b624bee2df2e66a50.jpg)
Here’s the wing tips. I think I’m leaving them blunt for safety. I almost foiled them today but then I remembered the Crazy Foils and decided to go with this.
Again, for this foil I’m trying to prove that you can build a simple foil. Another step in testing my discussions with Surffoils. (If this works I’ll also likely make a dead flat one just for research when I make my “good” wing later.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171224/56bc7b8fcfd3e68971a66a33eea8da2d.jpg)
Final thought. 24” x 8”. Should I go wider or will this get me moving? I could shape a second one and stick them together to make a 30” or 36” wing.
Post by: supuk on December 24, 2017, 05:28:55 AM
Post by: surfcowboy on December 24, 2017, 07:46:27 AM
Post by: surfcowboy on December 27, 2017, 06:39:39 PM
Wing is sealed with epoxy and micro balloons. Check the line. Is this the correct “flat” point to get zero angle of attack?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171228/e5f69b5442bf4923c7e804c748daba88.jpg)
And then I cut my paddle tubes to mount it.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171228/acaa0bc00832a789c1aca07ee42d7d37.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171228/e02738ed920ec0675d392c2393ce24f9.jpg)
Thanks Charlie for the idea of the 45° cut. It works perfectly.
My only concern now is that I’ve had to cut the fuselage down in front to fit inside the tube. I’m assuming that a couple
If layers of carbon and some glass will keep it strong enough. I’ll also fair it in with some bog to smooth it and glass over that so I’m probably good. If not, it’ll make a great story.
But looking at the aluminum fuselages, they seem about an inch square so should be good.
Post by: supuk on December 28, 2017, 01:44:12 AM
Post by: surfcowboy on December 28, 2017, 08:48:03 AM
I'm hoping this proves strong enough as it'll make creating new wings much easier. I'll know soon enough.
Post by: surfcowboy on January 01, 2018, 06:08:33 PM
Then I turned my attention to the fuselage. The front wing mount section of the fuselage wasn’t round so rather than add a bunch of bog and risk weight and alignment issues, I figured I’d add strips of carbon down the flat sides to make it stronger and round it out. 6 layers from 1/2” down to about 1/4” and it’s almost an inch in diameter and more than strong enough. In fact, I’ll probably cut the back part a bit thinner now too. 1 1/4” will be bulletproof for the back wing support and will look much sleeker.
I’m going to wrap a layer of carbon and glass on it, sand it a bit and then epoxy the paddle handle tube on and fill the gaps with epoxy mixed with chopped fibers.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180102/5731818b1be1f9ec98003fdd602f896f.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180102/59df1067d35e2a782bb06cc9ccbaa38b.jpg)
Then I routed out my board, just did the outline and took it down to 1 3/8” deep and then cut and picked out the center with a blade and a thousand little cuts. (Is there a great way to route out a giant box like this? Need to start a thread in the shape shack. Then I sanded the bottom flat with some blocks and got the insert very close. I’ll fine tune it one night this week and then maybe glass it in next weekend. This install is sooooo easy. I can’t even imagine doing one without the kit. Do yourself a favor.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180102/dda6c8f6ed8eda8b71e7e7531b86e0ac.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180102/a8d096c80874490bd7b56a78366d27b2.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180102/51585a1c18d2e2f56e25f4f0c034527e.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180102/fbcaa1e3d3211df010a3d9b28731412e.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180102/6f9af8c0f0a2aa691cc5fe43d9d665c8.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180102/cae6fc87b627ce9f96428f021ec77fc1.jpg)
Post by: TallDude on January 01, 2018, 07:14:04 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on January 01, 2018, 07:39:09 PM
That epoxy can stay sticky a loooong time in winter.
I'm guessing another month, which is hilarious. I think in the summer you could do one of these in a couple of weekends once you had the plan together. Like my first board, there's been a lot of standing around staring at the problems. ;)
Post by: supuk on January 02, 2018, 04:28:52 AM
Post by: jrandy on January 02, 2018, 06:50:44 AM
I would have tried to patent some sort of cross-sliding jig using a top-guided bit.
I do not see an issue epoxying foam-to-foam as you have a clean rout, insulation, and regular exotherm in your favor.
If the rout was sloppy I would worry about pooled resin going runaway exotherm and melting foam. All this is based on the epoxy components being stored indoors and the resin side heated to lukewarm before mixing.
Enclosing are some pics of my heat lamp setup for keeping small bits of fiberglass lukewarm until cured. I patched my longboard this last week during the cold spell in the Midwest.
Post by: jrandy on January 02, 2018, 08:10:20 AM
Post by: supuk on January 02, 2018, 09:23:36 AM
I will do some drawing and see if I can make it so it can be relatively for people to diy a jig if they want.
Post by: supuk on January 02, 2018, 02:01:32 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on January 02, 2018, 06:48:23 PM
I did a combo where I chipped out pieces but I think a multi tool would have made quick work of it.
Jrandy, thx for the advice. Yes, I'm going to seal the foam in that bow with a slurry, then I'll be dropping that cassette in with 4oz glass around it overlapping onto the bottom of the board so the resin should stay in. And foam for the corners is already ready to go.
Hadn't thought of a heat lamp, gr at idea, especially with all these small parts getting glassed. Thank you for that.
I need to sand a bevel into the surrounding glass before I drop that thing in and then it'll all get a nice big PonoPatch of 6oz carbon with 6oz glass over that so I can sand it down.
Post by: blackeye on January 03, 2018, 11:41:44 AM
Yo, Let's start a home made tools thread.
Hadn't thought of a heat lamp, gr at idea, especially with all these small parts getting glassed. Thank you for that.
I need to sand a bevel into the surrounding glass before I drop that thing in and then it'll all get a nice big PonoPatch of 6oz carbon with 6oz glass over that so I can sand it down.
I use a heat strap, with some layers of aluminum foil to spread the heat, then an old synthetic duvet over top. No matter what you use, check it often. Smoke is a bad sign, but it gets bad before smoke.
How about also tying in that unidirectional carbon with a unidirectional patch with a bit of overlap?
Post by: jrandy on January 03, 2018, 08:09:10 PM
I use a heat strap, with some layers of aluminum foil to spread the heat, then an old synthetic duvet over top. No matter what you use, check it often. Smoke is a bad sign, but it gets bad before smoke.
How about also tying in that unidirectional carbon with a unidirectional patch with a bit of overlap?
Blackeye, yes-letting the smoke out is bad. I am only trying to get initial cure going faster at 80 or 90 degrees F (opposed to my workspace being 65 or 70 F) with the heat lamp.
Around 120-125F the epoxy is at HDT, 135F is post-curing, and above 160F you are damaging any nearby EPS.
I saw that uni strip too...yes, it seems like a good opportunity cosmetically and structurally.
Charlie, nice looking jig. I like the stepped approach. Like you said, it can be hard to justify some tools for some jobs but sometimes a 'nice bit of kit' makes all the difference, prime example is the Futures one-pass setup with a compatible router. I have the kit and I have a homemade one but the homemade is clumsy in comparision.
B-a tool thread would be fun. I am spoiled in that my little CNC is perfect for small wooden projects like router jigs.
Post by: surfcowboy on January 03, 2018, 10:37:49 PM
Final thing, the back has a pretty serious V so that'll have to get shaped down, blended, and covered. I'm just going to lay the black carbon over it since I won't be able to color match the aged epoxy.
The patches will be diamond shaped so as to not create a stress/break point anywhere.
Post by: jrandy on January 04, 2018, 03:48:00 AM
Post by: blackeye on January 04, 2018, 09:48:35 AM
I use a heat strap, with some layers of aluminum foil to spread the heat, then an old synthetic duvet over top. No matter what you use, check it often. Smoke is a bad sign, but it gets bad before smoke.Blackeye, yes-letting the smoke out is bad. I am only trying to get initial cure going faster at 80 or 90 degrees F (opposed to my workspace being 65 or 70 F) with the heat lamp.
Around 120-125F the epoxy is at HDT, 135F is post-curing, and above 160F you are damaging any nearby EPS.
I should have added that I work in a carport where it's 0C to 7C in winter, up to 15C spring and autumn.
An incandescent lightbulb with a tent of foil and an insulator over top works too. A cardboard box lined with foil makes a decent low-temp oven.
If the purpose of the longitudinal carbon tape was cosmetic, then never mind. A carbon patch would obscure its replacement. But if it is structural, it should be replaced with the same or higher spec fibre in the same effective orientation. By putting a strip of the same tape overlapping the old tape you would be assured of matching the weight and orientation of the existing fibre.
Post by: surfcowboy on January 04, 2018, 08:54:30 PM
I'm assuming the carbon patch will do it up. I will mention that I've been following the foil box thread and this one will be set with glass underneath wrapping up onto the deck and then carbon and a layer of 4 oz glass over the top so it should make a really solid unit. I'm assuming that I'll make the carbon patch go pretty much side to side as I believe in spreading that stress way out across the board.
I am stunned at some of the small patches I see, including the little one on Kai's surfboard. I guess that this stuff is stronger than we know, but I don't wanna find the limits.
Post by: supuk on January 05, 2018, 06:34:18 AM
So I drew this up. I have done two different options for the slider, one for use with a large router and the other for use with a trim router that normally have a smaller base plate, this version would require you to flip the plate over to get the opposite side. If anyone has any suggestions to add to it I will happily try and include it and then publish a pdf that can be printed and cut out for the diy'er.
I have now made the pdf file for this so if anyone wants it just drop me a message
Post by: surfcowboy on January 06, 2018, 06:36:24 PM
It went in a bit below the level I want so I added a layer of 6oz under it but it's still a bit low so I'll probably drop a layer of 6oz on top to bring the top up to level with the skin and then put the carbon and glass over that. I love additive processes, you can always add a little more.
The front mount goes on tomorrow and then I'll start aligning the wing and get that all glassed. It seems like it will never end but they all feel like that about this time in the project. But it's starting to look like "a thing" now.
Hilariously a friend today asked me where I got the plans from and I realized that I just have been winging it (pun intended). I told him, "I know these guys on the internet and there's this guy from England who kinda tell me what to do."
As I said it, I realized that it must sound crazy to him but this has been a blast.
Post by: supuk on January 09, 2018, 12:57:27 PM
So I drew this up. I have done two different options for the slider, one for use with a large router and the other for use with a trim router that normally have a smaller base plate, this version would require you to flip the plate over to get the opposite side. If anyone has any suggestions to add to it I will happily try and include it and then publish a pdf that can be printed and cut out for the diy'er.tested the jig today, I machined it out of a peace of ply but it would have been better in good mdf. My intension is that when cutting it out by hand you do it in two layers of wood so you have a nice smooth surface for the plates to slide on. At some point I will probably do a nice one in ali but ether way it made cutting the pocket very easy and a lot less dangerous than my previous jig.
Post by: surfcowboy on January 09, 2018, 06:31:19 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on January 09, 2018, 11:36:04 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180110/a7fac0dc31da7bdbb4dd89f059fd7759.jpg)
The cassette is in, need to add a couple of layers of 6oz to bring the level up to the deck of the board and then I’ll bag the carbon over it all this weekend if I can stay off the beach after this stormy week.
Hoping to get the wing mount aligned as well so I can glass and bag my wing too. The fuselage mount worked great. If this works I’ll have a poor man’s Armstrong mount, though I’m now investigating Square carbon mating pieces as well for my next rig if I don’t just settle into a Liquid Force fuselage for the next one.
Seems like 3D printing an adapter like UK did for the LF fuselages might be a good idea for future systems. Might even buy the masts and mounts.
Though now that I’m in it, I’ve come to see that a carbon mast is the way to go for stiffness and strength. This project has opened my eyes to structural carbon fiber reinforcement. So if I can make a mast that works I’ll consider staying with those. If I can 3D print the plug I think that’s the way to go for a bombproof mast but still, it’s hard to justify the time when the LF aluminum is so cheap and you can just get another if you tweak one. Lots to consider.
Post by: surfcowboy on January 13, 2018, 05:09:40 PM
Bagging with aquarium pump, putty weather stripping, and spare plastic.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180114/29ed504e36f04a17c60d15e976515063.jpg)
And then the result. I wouldn’t do a full board with this but I’ll never do ding repair without it again.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180114/d0c90750e646e905c0d508d69f8b434f.jpg)
Boxes are in, not much to sand and everything is tight to the sides. I love it. No wonder you guys do this. Sooo easy.
Oh and check the angle of attack thread for some shots of testing my angles. So. Many. Angles.
Post by: jrandy on January 14, 2018, 06:10:57 AM
I like to cut a slit into the glass (long ways down the taped opening with a little V on the ends) over the boxes to allow it to go into the corners and release air bubbles a little easier. Same goes for installing side fin boxes.
If you liked this, try some peel ply or perf ply over the resin next time and you'll end up with an even smoother surface as extra resin can go through the ply.
Post by: surfcowboy on January 14, 2018, 08:08:46 AM
Also, hilariously, I have peel ply and stretchalon but got into this one and only realized I should bag after the resin was on lol.
I grabbed this plastic from my plastic bin where I keep stuff to use for bench protection and made it happen last minute. I can see now that the real stuff is going to be amazing. But this was a low risk way to test as there is more cloth coming over the top of this.
I'm thinking that I'll cut the top carbon and glass the way you describe for sure.
Post by: jrandy on January 14, 2018, 10:05:13 AM
I have done a couple capped ones where the box gets trimmed to height first before the fabric is lammed.
I have yet to do a carbon fiber cap over a fin or mast box. If others have tips I am all ears as well.
I think I did one where I used a panel trim bit on a router to open the box.
Nice job on switching to vacuum mid-lam and pulling it off with common materials.
Your project is getting me inspired to go after some of mine.
Post by: supuk on January 14, 2018, 11:04:41 AM
Post by: PonoBill on January 14, 2018, 01:50:17 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on January 14, 2018, 02:43:36 PM
I'm waiting on some real sealing tape to do the carbon layup.
Jrandy, it's funny, when you're new, there's never enough time before the resin kicks. Once you've done these a few times (and the temp is not too high) you can be calmer and adapt as you need to.
Post by: jrandy on January 14, 2018, 03:45:31 PM
If I want to trim a box, I tape off the area and cut the excess off to about 1/32" [.8mm] proud using a hand saw (Japanese pull or flush-cut) or multi-tool (angled up) riding on the tape. Then I remove the tape and begin sanding it flush with the 7" hard backer and 80 grit.
Looking forward to more progress B. The bagging mastic is a superior product to masking and duct tapes.
Post by: surfcowboy on January 14, 2018, 10:01:59 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on January 20, 2018, 06:06:01 PM
First, I drilled some holes to fill with resin and then drill again for bolts or inserts to keep the wing from twisting. (More on that later. )
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180121/dc072a6468922329c27d5c40a483db19.jpg)
Then I got down to business laying a 6 Oz carbon and 4oz S glass patch on top. (Anyone think I need more than that here?)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180121/7b4939a8966671e62ec4969e3eeb52a4.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180121/d025cb0095ca1003ba8d4725f4477ebd.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180121/d0b088d639702ac4bc0cfb92467ebca9.jpg)
As you can see, I got stretchon
film and the good tape. Note, they only had the grey, not the yellow. Seems fine.
Put some foam to keep film out of the hose. As you can see, I just taped it in.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180121/b6f6d48f8debdafc5028a3816f4ef059.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180121/398b4fed8673bd9ffad52f1b461c4574.jpg)
It pulls down tight, Jrandy, I forgot to cut the carbon and glass in my excitement to bag it all, but it sucked down fine I think. I’ll pull the film later tonight.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180121/c6e57868de2ddd82322809e14c97b2e7.jpg)
And there’s my $20 pump. I was all set to have to do a ton to this thing and I’ll be dammed if it didn’t have intake ports that fit the aquarium hose hiding inside. I drilled 2 holes in the top and ran the tubes out and joined them with a T.
It will do fine for these parts. Not sure I’d do a board with it but it’s great for foil building and since it’s magnetic instead of an impeller, it can’t really burn out. I just let it pull and it runs cool for hours.
Hope to make my plate and back wing tomorrow so I’ll be ready to bag the wings this week.
Post by: surfcowboy on January 20, 2018, 09:02:52 PM
UK, DW, Pono, Jrandy, why didn't you make me get a bagging setup sooner?! lol. It's really unbelievable.
I'll never fix a ding without bagging again. So much better.
Post by: TallDude on January 20, 2018, 10:11:57 PM
Post by: PonoBill on January 21, 2018, 12:30:28 AM
Post by: surfcowboy on January 21, 2018, 08:25:17 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180121/083e4eea95617767579050141e90cd06.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180121/e747778b2586aba8eae836f08c95a08c.jpg)
I’d heard “no sanding” and couldn’t believe it. But it’s true. Crazy.
Post by: surfcowboy on January 29, 2018, 09:15:07 PM
I didn't full coat it with white pigment so I just did the hot coat and it's sort of a milky effect but it keeps things cool which was my concern.
Hoping to carbon this thing up next weekend and start making it look like a foil.
Post by: surfcowboy on February 02, 2018, 06:10:52 PM
One small mistake that I'm not worried about but others should watch out for. I went too deep with my cassette and had to fill in. Ended up adding a pound or so of weight I didn't need. Live and learn.
Put in my threaded brass inserts today and they are curing now. I'll melt out the wax tomorrow and test my bolts.
Trying to get the mast plate and rear wing done this weekend but now it's light after 5pm again so work will speed up. Ready for summer foiling?
Post by: surfcowboy on February 03, 2018, 11:35:01 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180204/1e6c05fad5b1f00ff317b4d7e33e53a9.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180204/cb02a341e63bcbc8d46897b3f19487d0.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180204/4f1602fff93d658bcb7e2f013f2ef893.jpg)
Got a few wrinkles but overall I’m happy with the bag job. For those who are wanting to try it, it’s easier than it seems. Just do it.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180204/ec823c17f23b1e7a0daa808b55bc25dd.jpg)
If any of you guys have some advice on getting my corners better, let me know. Should I try to wrap them up in the bag when putting them in? Maybe masking tape over the peel ply? I’d love to get the rounded front corners to lay a little better instead of just sanding them down. Thoughts?
I got a lot of edges to trim for sure but getting it out of the bag while still a little soft was great as I cut most of it off with an xacto.
Mounting the wing was easier but stressful. Getting all the angles right was a challenge for sure.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180204/0a8b7aa1d478ce4340f2f5a4d77cacae.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180204/77c8334326374d75808c9848164a4f9f.jpg)
I’ll go over this with a few layers of glass in the am and then bag another 3 layers of 4 Oz over the whole wing. Hoping that 20 Oz of glass is enough. We shall see.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180204/4879a7f01d7ea00cee6e1c9c7aa7270f.jpg)
Have to mark those top holes so I can find them once the glass is laid on top too. That is an interesting challenge as well. Next time I’ll just wait and drill the whole thing out after the wing is done. Live and learn, right?
Post by: surfcowboy on February 04, 2018, 07:26:28 PM
I beefed up the area over the mount point and that's curing now. I think things will move quicker now, this was the hardest part of the project.
Even if this thing flies like a dog, it's been a great learning project. Just getting bagging skills will change my board building forever.
One tip, for bagging wings I've been using the stiffer tube but it doesn't really conform to all the surfaces. From now on I'm just going to make my own out of the stretchalon so I can get pressure on all the nooks and crannies. At least formthese small parts.
Aquarium pump is working absolutely perfectly but the way. I can't believe it.
Post by: jrandy on February 04, 2018, 08:00:12 PM
Glad to hear your system is working. Looking forward to seeing the rest of yours and Opie's pictures.
Post by: surfcowboy on February 05, 2018, 07:02:48 PM
I should get the back wing cut this week and that with the mast plate will start to make things look more like a real foil. My goal is to hotcoat the wing this week. Hoping to glass the mast next weekend but that might take a few sessions.
Post by: surfcowboy on February 06, 2018, 06:52:42 PM
I have some wrinkles in the 4 layers of 4 oz that I bagged on (got to work next time to pull it all tighter before bagging.)
Anyway, when I sand them flat I get small holes where the wrinkles were that sometimes go to the foam. The largest is 1/4" by 1/2". Others are maybe 1/8" wide tops. Rather than sanding further and trying to fill them with glass I'm considering putting resin with chopped fiber in the holes. Note that this thing is rock solid with zero flex after 24 oz of glass so I'm not worried about structural integrity.
Is this ok or do you think I need to try to sand a bigger hole and lay 6 layers of glass in? I think I know my vote. ;)
Post by: surfcowboy on February 10, 2018, 06:28:24 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180211/12200aeebfaf3a68a8eece87a39369e5.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180211/81c4195b8c7b45daabc303ec0206bfbb.jpg)
Had to post some of the mess here.
Also got my plate and rear wing cut and shaped. I like it. Next up, glass and mount.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180211/f82271644eb5fe2a3c3f03bcf00d7c60.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180211/4544703ceafd3f26c7ce9eb239ee4b49.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180211/ceada7151be62dc83e130c24198c5ca6.jpg)
Hell, I might fly this thing next month!
Post by: surfcowboy on February 11, 2018, 12:43:41 PM
Rear wing and top plate getting a layer of carbon to stiffen things up before really getting serious.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180211/625b5aaf0d58b3f114a029596f46544e.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180211/f390bd9170baba8dfe052d15c4f6ced3.jpg)
Post by: surfcowboy on February 11, 2018, 07:13:43 PM
Got my holes epoxied. I like hiding a splash of color in places.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180212/d8027af894f27823ec00049e62f23a79.jpg)
That thing is backed with a layer of carbon and I'm stunned at the stiffness.
And I managed to get a pretty good lam on my rear wing. That's 3 x 6 oz glass layer wrapped around and a 6 oz carbon and a 4 oz glass under that on the bottom for extra rigidity. Should be able to just sand and hotcoat this one.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180212/8aa686363ceb8e35a1e3a1fee94075f8.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180212/d2c040af22a201669f43911469b59db8.jpg)
I'm inspired to keep this pace now.
Post by: surfcowboy on February 11, 2018, 08:13:43 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180212/d7a8569980b49053271d2f717bb326a7.jpg)
Post by: opie on February 12, 2018, 04:42:45 AM
Post by: surfcowboy on February 12, 2018, 08:25:10 PM
Now I gotta get that mast and plate into a giant bag. Wish me luck!
Post by: surfcowboy on February 17, 2018, 02:32:18 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180217/6c6cfbc7dcea4c308bdf25a0a57491d9.jpg)
If you look closely I routed a little section that I could fill with epoxy and chopped fiber to set the mast in. Then I laid a single layer of 4 Oz to “glue” things together as straight and true as I can. That’ll hopefully make the carbon layup easier to manage.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180217/179965da3e84b701b7a6e9f6d632b55f.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180217/b88a3da5e665dc23f056f014f83b7c5c.jpg)
Now to nap til everything kicks.
Post by: opie on February 18, 2018, 08:18:40 AM
Post by: jrandy on February 18, 2018, 09:03:50 AM
I found myself disinterested in foiling but recent posts and pictures are making me feel otherwise.
Have I been sucked into the dark side known as DIY foiling?
Post by: surfcowboy on February 18, 2018, 09:36:31 AM
Is that a canard wing set up? I just had the thought that my next foil might be one of those. Thinking of printing some parts to carbon up and making that rig one of my tests once I get a good wing running. (Next project). With your skills you could kill it man. Like all of this stuff it’s practice and patience.
I got mine mocked up today. Don’t mind the wonky angles. None of this is locked down, just stacked up so I can see it all in one place finally.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180218/a64525307e6190ab521996a1a89e0f5f.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180218/6590bdee4c58f9b9df9d4d8269118f52.jpg)
Post by: jrandy on February 18, 2018, 10:09:39 AM
Still 'sussing out the fuselage, thinking I will adopt a bolt-on foil concept, perhaps compatible with mass-market types.
The foils shown are 'fakes', a couple splines extruded to make it look plausible. The front is negatively tapered giving it a little curve.
Once I have a better grip on the dimensions for the 'fuzz' I will probably start in on it.
Edit: Thanks again for the inspiration. Now back to our regulary scheduled Surfcowboy prorgamming...
Post by: supuk on February 18, 2018, 11:06:10 AM
Oooh. I’d say that all the guys near lakes should get a foil. It’s one of my thoughts should I spend the summer back near my folks. I can’t surf but I could hitch a ride with my skiing buddies all summer.
Is that a canard wing set up? I just had the thought that my next foil might be one of those. Thinking of printing some parts to carbon up and making that rig one of my tests once I get a good wing running. (Next project). With your skills you could kill it man. Like all of this stuff it’s practice and patience.
I got mine mocked up today. Don’t mind the wonky angles. None of this is locked down, just stacked up so I can see it all in one place finally.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180218/a64525307e6190ab521996a1a89e0f5f.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180218/6590bdee4c58f9b9df9d4d8269118f52.jpg)
nice not fare to go now!
Post by: surfcowboy on February 18, 2018, 05:38:39 PM
Got one sides 45° strips laid up this afternoon. Bagged it up and clamped it to a straight board to keep it from warping. Should have the other side done early tomorrow and hope to lay up the covering layer of carbon and glass and have the mast somewhat done. Fuselage should be less hassle being straight and consistent shape.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180219/57d10329b93d182f592cda42c75e8c88.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180219/0484a58af14376d5e368d2f6ed54c95b.jpg)
Post by: surfcowboy on February 18, 2018, 08:03:20 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180219/a17a4962094b138a97797eefd8badd17.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180219/8cc6bb137ec3b8ab7529348777f83e31.jpg)
I am loving the bagging now. It really does make laminating better. I get why people put up with the hassle and setup.
Post by: jrandy on February 22, 2018, 06:01:03 AM
What are your plans for a lamination schedule overall?
Will you be adding a fillet between the plate and mast?
-J
Post by: surfcowboy on February 22, 2018, 08:26:51 AM
I'm thinking that I'll wrap another layer of carbon at 90° and 3 x 4 oz glass around the mast for a total of 3, 6 oz carbon and 3, 4 oz glass. The first 2 layers were cut on 45°.
The plate has those first 2 layers wrapped up onto it. I'm going to add another layer of carbon and 3 of glass on the transition and to cover the underside of the plate. There are patches of carbon on the front and rear of the plate/mast connection too so that will all be covered with the top layers.
I'll top that off with a layer to lap the sides, probably laid on from the top of the plate.
I'm sure I'll put a little chopped fiber and resin to make a fillet but nothing too big. I set the mast in a little fiber and resin and so I hope all that will do me. The Clearwater kits don't have anything near that to my knowledge.
I'd love to hear from other folks on here as to what they think of this but I think I'm good with the built in structure of the ply under this all. I can always add glass on top if it's not stiff enough when I'm done with this.
The hardest thing is getting a little time each day to lay things up. I end up only getting to do like 3 layups a weekend. If there was more time after work and a little warmer weather I could probably knock this all out in a few weeks now. I'm anxious to do another one and see how fast it can go next time.
Post by: blackeye on February 22, 2018, 12:52:03 PM
I'm sure I'll put a little chopped fiber and resin to make a fillet but nothing too big. I set the mast in a little fiber and resin and so I hope all that will do me.
Great project so far.
I don't have real life experience on these foils, but the top plate join to the mast seems like the weakest link. Why not have a big fillet there? HD foam or wood, maybe 1" high/wide, maybe bigger, then your final layers. You could fair out the leading and trailing edges of this so it isn't to abrupt, but it will be far less drag than the leading edge of your plate.
Post by: TallDude on February 22, 2018, 01:05:29 PM
Post by: supuk on February 22, 2018, 02:03:31 PM
Post by: blackeye on February 22, 2018, 03:15:52 PM
That came out clean!
This photo of the plate makes it look like some liquid cooled super computer netflix server. Can you make me one? My netflix buffering sux.
(how come the photo doesn't come out in the quote? It was the one on the top of the previous page)
Post by: PonoBill on February 22, 2018, 08:30:43 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on February 22, 2018, 08:47:13 PM
Thanks for the idea on the fillet. Had I thought earlier I'd have done it out of wood but as it is I can mix up a strong bog with resin, microballoons and chopped fiber. Weight is not even an issue and I'm not that worried about drag. Those Tuttle to plate adapters are way bigger.
I'll lay on a big ass fillet before I do any more fabric for sure. You're right about the hinge. The bag makes those corners sharp. Good looking but not the best for strength.
I gotta say, it's nice to have the feedback. Thank you guys. For a while there it was just me and UK plugging away. I was feeling lonely. ;)
I can't wait to see what other builds come out of this forum.
Post by: jrandy on February 23, 2018, 03:45:27 PM
Quote from: surfcowboy
I gotta say, it's nice to have the feedback. Thank you guys. For a while there it was just me and UK plugging away. I was feeling lonely. ;)
I can't wait to see what other builds come out of this forum.
Teaser from the snowy Midwest...thanks for the inspiration!
Post by: surfcowboy on February 23, 2018, 08:17:07 PM
Post by: jrandy on February 23, 2018, 09:20:39 PM
After that it goes through Cutviewer for a simulation and then LinuxCNC to drive the router.
Fusion is also capable of generating G-Code but I have not tried it yet.
Post by: blackeye on February 23, 2018, 10:15:08 PM
I gotta say, it's nice to have the feedback. Thank you guys. For a while there it was just me and UK plugging away. I was feeling lonely. ;)
I can't wait to see what other builds come out of this forum.
I try to stay quiet because I'm a dilettante. I study and watch, learn and forget. You and Supuk are doing it. I've done repairs and wasted materials on some ideas that include foils.
Post by: surfcowboy on February 24, 2018, 01:12:46 AM
Jrandy that plate with the cutout is really what i needed to do. I did a smaller version of it but that's a solid start on a connection. I dug back into Fusion 360 this week and am about to get into exporting gcode myself with slic3r for some tests. Oh and I found a lock maker space with a laser cutter. Also hoping for a CNC but haven't been able to confirm that yet.
Building stuff by hand is fun but some precision would be nice too.
Post by: supuk on February 24, 2018, 02:19:54 AM
Yes, CNC. Designed in Fusion360, exported to STL, and then MeshCAM for generating the G-Code.
After that it goes through Cutviewer for a simulation and then LinuxCNC to drive the router.
Fusion is also capable of generating G-Code but I have not tried it yet.
Great job, you should try fusion cam as its only a click of a button to do and does the simulation also. Cam is like another art to learn there is just so much detail in doing it properly I haven't even started to scratch the surface.
Post by: jrandy on February 24, 2018, 11:59:22 AM
Hi Cowboy, I hope the maker space and other experiments go well. It's fun to watch parts go from mind-screen-machine-hands.
Post by: supuk on February 24, 2018, 12:41:41 PM
Hi Charlie, how long does it take to set up and feel comfortable with Fusion360 CAM?
Hi Cowboy, I hope the maker space and other experiments go well. It's fun to watch parts go from mind-screen-machine-hands.
to do something like that its very easy and fairly intuitive. There's a fare bit on you tube to understand the basics
Post by: surfcowboy on February 24, 2018, 04:08:57 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/19389047da915eb56c5d6d6161713299.jpg)
I did wanna show something I figured out for the new bag guys.
Pulling the bag away from the lower side of a shape let's you get a really nice lap instead of a flat plate at the bottom to sand off.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/5dcc465dff5d6233b84c68a576987691.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/d26b7e9332e5b196f1dcf24c31ed62cf.jpg)
Post by: 808sup on February 24, 2018, 10:15:52 PM
Post by: supuk on February 24, 2018, 11:30:55 PM
As I always preach, patience. But sometimes you just have to go surf. I had to leave before this set up well and it slumped so I'll have a little sanding to do and then fill the corner to get a nice fillet. All good. Stuff happens.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/19389047da915eb56c5d6d6161713299.jpg)
I did wanna show something I figured out for the new bag guys.
Pulling the bag away from the lower side of a shape let's you get a really nice lap instead of a flat plate at the bottom to sand off.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/5dcc465dff5d6233b84c68a576987691.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180225/d26b7e9332e5b196f1dcf24c31ed62cf.jpg)
Use cabosil in your mix it is designed as a anti slumping agent
Post by: surfcowboy on February 25, 2018, 12:28:02 AM
And 808, thx for posting. We should refresh that bagging thread and post up experiences. You did a great job on that install. Mine was a bit too low but you dialed the depth perfectly man.
I did my fuselage today and side one came out great so side two tomorrow. I've got a trip this week but I think I only need one more weekend to get this thing dialed.
Post by: jrandy on February 25, 2018, 07:05:21 AM
I am also jealous (in a good way) that you get to decide between projects and surfing. Good call!
I would dremel-tool away a little of the leading edge of the foot on top of the base plate, set the rig on the baseplate and tip the flat side of the mast 45 degrees towards the horizon, and then apply a drier/spackle-like mix of resin, microspheres, and fumed silica to the upward-facing joint. On mine I am considering laying in a piece of polyethylene tubing to help form the rounded part of the fillet. The idea there is to force a small concave and not (!) have the tubing glued to the rig.
My CNC misfired and ground a 4" s-shaped groove into the tail of my fuselage core yesterday. You can also see that I had to run the piece at 45 degrees to get a 28" x 3" piece to fit on a 23" square working area. I did get mast to base and fuselage core to mast assembled yesterday so it is starting to look like a unit. I am just trying to make incremental progress, a step or two a day. Today I want to design side pieces for the fuselage to tie in the mast joint and add some strength in the 'yaw' direction.
Post by: surfcowboy on February 25, 2018, 04:12:16 PM
I used to get random "misses" like that on my vinyl cutter too. So frustrating when it happens.
The laminated fuselage is a great way to handle the joint. For my next one I want one I can break down but I'll have to estimate the thickness of my lam so I'm going to do a test panel soon so I know what my 6 layer layup thickness is. (Looks like about 1/8" so far.)
Now I have a nice long work trip to do so I'm off for a bit. But I think another weekend or two will get me flying. Can't wait to see what you come up with.
Post by: jrandy on February 26, 2018, 05:01:11 AM
I oversized the hole in the plate 1/32" (.8mm) per side which is really easy to do in Fusion360.
I got excited to put it together so I skipped the wraps and just added cloth to the hole.
I cut 2" wide stips the length of the baseplate, taped everything off and wetted out the glass and the wood.
Then I put the strips over the hole and shoved in the mast.
I trimmed off the extra cloth after the resin had set soft but was not cured hard so I would not have to sand.
At three layers of 7.5 oz and one layer of 4 oz per side things were starting to get tight.
In retrospect I could have just wrapped the mast and waited to measure the skin thickness and just milled the plate later.
Had I been any larger with the hole it would have taken more glass and been more difficult to align.
Post by: surfcowboy on February 27, 2018, 01:59:33 AM
i've got a crazy idea to reinforce the inside of a carbon paddle shaft and make a fuselage out of that since the front/wing mount of my rig is already based on that. I'll also look at thicker wall tubing but I don't think I can get it at a good enough price. My idea is to put clips with a string on the end of wet out strips of carbon and glass (and a long party balloon like you make animals out of) and pull them through a tube, holding it vertically to keep the strips from sticking too badly. Then, turn the tube so the fabric lays down a bit, and then blowing up the balloon to hold the fabric in place while it cures. 2 or 3 times of that with 1" wide strips and you'd have a pretty well reinforced tube for a fuse. That fuse could bolt to the bottom of a mast that had a half round receiver made into it with a couple of stainless bolts. Or even just slide into and bolt up into a section of larger tube like my wing mount. The rear wing would unbolt to allow it to slide in.
Just working out ways to simplify and strengthen the build with all these attachment points.
In the end, solid carbon tube may be the way, I'm checking prices now. If not, then I'm molding like UK to get the sizes I need
Post by: jrandy on February 28, 2018, 08:22:12 PM
Charlie, I had another go with CAM in Fusion360. I got to the simulation and it being able to run much quicker this time.
Not much progress so far here this week. I managed to glue and clamp the two outer cheeks of the fuselage tonight.
Is there such a think as too many clamps?
Post by: 808sup on February 28, 2018, 08:37:06 PM
That method of using a bladder to inflate and pressure fit fiberglass is a good idea. In fact, it has been in use for several years to reline sewer pipes here in Hawaii as well as the mainland. It saves a ton of time and money. No need to tear up the streets to replace pipes. Just reline...Pretty sure the guys who invented the system are rolling in money 💰.
Post by: stoneaxe on March 01, 2018, 10:48:51 AM
CIPP (cured in place pipe) has been around since the late 70's. It's good tech when used in the right places and done properly. I've used it in designs a handful of times (i'm a process/piping designer). It shouldn't be too difficult to do something similar on a smaller scale. The guy that invented it did it to fix some pipes under his home if I remember correctly. Piping installs today are done mostly with inverted (turned inside out) liners that are unfolded by pressure. You may not have to stick it through 1st if you do something similar and turn the balloon inside out...problem is that the carbon your adding isn't a closed tube. be worth experimenting a little though...maybe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY_wE71GRyk
Post by: surfcowboy on March 01, 2018, 10:08:38 PM
I later figured out that I could just epoxy in a slightly smaller diameter of tube as well. More money, but way less hassle. Type first, think later is my motto here.
But Stoney I don't think a complete tube is necessary to stiffen it up. I have some layup experiments and they are pretty stron with even a U shaped in. I have a whole new respect for carbon after this project. I was thinking of just putting in strips on opposing sides to add a little extra beef. But if I can find a good deal on tube I think the inner sleeve would do really well.
Post by: stoneaxe on March 02, 2018, 05:43:15 AM
Sounds far easier.....and less messy..... :)
Post by: surfcowboy on March 02, 2018, 06:41:05 PM
Sounds far easier.....and less messy..... :)
Man, what fun is that? ;) I'm down in Texas headed to a rodeo tomorrow. This is going to be the longest build ever lol.
Post by: jrandy on March 02, 2018, 07:47:59 PM
Sounds far easier.....and less messy..... :)
Man, what fun is that? ;) I'm down in Texas headed to a rodeo tomorrow. This is going to be the longest build ever lol.
Nah Cowboy, not the longest. You're just being gracious and letting the rest of us catch up...
I rounded over parts of the fuselage and gave the back of the base 4x7.5oz+epoxy and a couple lams for posterity or at least one so I can remember what flavor resin I used. One layer is bias-cut and the first three were wet out on the table on top of heavy plastic film. Wet cloth applied to base, lams applied to cloth, more resin and cloth applied with a Bono spreader then trimmed to 1/4" (6.4mm) from wood while still wet. Cleanup with ISO alcohol (scissors, etc.) and Fast Orange (hands). I had already knocked a sliver off the base so it's good to have is glassed.
Post by: opie on March 02, 2018, 09:52:20 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on March 03, 2018, 08:10:41 PM
Post by: blackeye on March 04, 2018, 08:15:49 PM
My idea is to put clips with a string on the end of wet out strips of carbon and glass (and a long party balloon like you make animals out of) and pull them through a tube, holding it vertically to keep the strips from sticking too badly. Then, turn the tube so the fabric lays down a bit, and then blowing up the balloon to hold the fabric in place while it cures.
This guy shows us a cheap and cheerful way to make inflation bladders for composite layup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STj0eqDpafo
Instead of pressurizing the inside, if the bladder could be inflated to ambient pressure, ie blowed up and sealed, the whole assembly could be put inside a vacuum bag and it would achieve the same thing.
(I didn't actually read the application you were contemplating. tldr. The internet has wiped out my attention span. Hope this still applies.)
Post by: Surfside on March 05, 2018, 05:49:31 AM
Post by: surfcowboy on March 05, 2018, 07:24:39 PM
Blackeye, you've sent me down a YouTube hole with the bladder thing now lol. Thx for that link. I'm watching all that guy's other vids now.
Post by: Surfside on March 06, 2018, 03:55:49 AM
Post by: surfcowboy on March 10, 2018, 09:50:50 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180311/dcbdf650c6d0d168595198a4e9e6a5df.jpg)
It’ll smooth out with a little sanding and then I’ll start laying on the final carbon layers.
Post by: PonoBill on March 10, 2018, 10:02:54 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on March 11, 2018, 08:56:27 AM
Post by: jrandy on March 11, 2018, 08:21:56 PM
I forgot to consider twisting loads from the wing to the fuselage. I may end up with a couple 'big ugly' fillets too.
Post by: 808sup on March 11, 2018, 10:38:38 PM
Super rare. Picked it up out of the back door of Space X.That’s classic cowboy!
Question: Could you have used the fiberglass rope that they use for glassed on fins instead? Can use fingers to mold it in place. Or would that not be strong enough for this application?
Post by: surfcowboy on March 12, 2018, 10:19:58 PM
I just need to smooth it a bit with some sanding and then I'll lay carbon over it. It'll be pretty bombproof at least. But it's gonna look like I have a Tuttle adapter on it lol.
Like all things with this build, the next one will be smaller ;)
Post by: PonoBill on March 12, 2018, 11:05:05 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on March 13, 2018, 10:39:17 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on March 18, 2018, 05:22:47 PM
I've got the underside of the plate and the transition to the mast in the bag now. You know how you've got a good wife? She will help you get parts into the bag. You know when you have a really good wife? She knew to put peel ply on but didn't mention it and let me do what I was doing. Lol.
Probably losing a bag today but I know I married well. I also told her that I trust her enough that if she's sees me doing something goofier than usual to mention it. But minding your own business is a major part of staying married so God bless her.
If I have another bag, I'll try to get my mast layers on one night this week. It's light outside now after work so I've got no excuse to slack on my sanding. Pics coming soon.
Post by: surfcowboy on March 31, 2018, 06:52:15 PM
All I have left for glassing is to lay up the mast. Hoping to do that tomorrow, then it's off to Vegas for a week of work (Laird help me.) when I get back, hot coats and then finally, mounting the tail wing. Getting close boys.
Then, what next? ;)
Post by: surfcowboy on April 01, 2018, 11:04:08 PM
Haven't tweaked on it due to it curing but it seems bulletproof. I'm super proud of this thing even if it never flies, it's been a great build and I learned a ton. Patience pays off for sure.
Post by: TallDude on April 02, 2018, 07:21:24 AM
I'm having issues with Tapatalk so I can't upload right now. (Paging admin, I'm getting a server error.)
Me too. Tapatalk stopped working for me a while ago, but only with the standupzone. It says 'Server error'. I just blew if off and open TheZone in a web browser on my phone.
Looking good Cowboy!
Post by: opie on April 02, 2018, 02:18:05 PM
I'm super proud of this thing even if it never flies, it's been a great build and I learned a ton.
That thing will fly. :)
Post by: surfcowboy on May 13, 2018, 09:23:11 PM
I finally sanded the wings again tonight and got what I think is my last hotcoat on them.
Now just hotcoat the mast and fuse and mount the tail wing. It's coming.
Post by: TallDude on May 13, 2018, 11:11:24 PM
Ok, Tapatalk is still broken on the zone. I'm not posting pics til it's back. Too much hassle otherwise.Don't hold your breath. I have a feeling there's a reason it still doesn't work. https://androidforums.com/threads/tapatalk-is-being-discontinued.1125895/
Like the server error recommends, just view the Zone through a browser on your phone. You can upload pictures straight from your phone. You may need to resize them with a photo app first.
Post by: surfcowboy on May 14, 2018, 12:00:36 AM
Thx man. Oh, and ... the sanding... always with the sanding...
Post by: surfcowboy on May 21, 2018, 07:53:04 PM
Small issue, went to put my bolts in the wing mount and when I tighten them down they pull the wing out of square with the fuselage. Looks like my holes are a bit to one side. I'm worried about filling the side of the holes but I mixed up some milled fiber and epoxy and I'm trying.
As a fall back I might drill a hole all the way through the wing and the fuse to keep it from twisting but we will see. I have no idea if I'm over or under building this point but overbuilding is best when in doubt. Seems like a lot of foil parts break.
Otherwise just pushing through the end of this project. Got the rear wing set so it'll have a degree or two of positive angle which seems to be the idea (rear wing "fighting" the wing lift a bit.)
Let me know if you guys have thoughts on the wing, stabilizing the roll. I'm assuming there's a good bit of pressure there with the turning force so I don't want any play in there.
As always, I see a solution... on the next one I build lol.
Post by: container on May 24, 2018, 11:09:28 AM
i can 100% guarantee none of my foils have been square, level or true and they work just fine ;D
Post by: surfcowboy on May 26, 2018, 11:36:10 PM
I'm working on an alternate plan for taking out some of the slack while finishing the final gloss coat. I'm also already getting into designing mark II for sure.
In good news my wing and mast are seriously stiff so that's encouraging. Ready to get this in the water for sure.
Post by: surfcowboy on June 06, 2018, 01:29:05 AM
Put some pad enhancements on to place my feet. This is based on the Beasho / Pono measurements and should get me a way to start. I'm thinking I'll have to add more but until I figure out strap/no strap etc this should place me at least.
Getting a decent pic workflow started so watch this space. This thing is almost there.
Post by: surfcowboy on June 06, 2018, 01:33:05 AM
Just need to get the tail mounted and then a final hotcoat.
Post by: TallDude on June 06, 2018, 12:04:26 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on June 10, 2018, 11:49:37 PM
Still haven't found anyone with a 3D printer who can print me up a wing plug. Gotta get back on that and make myself a second wing.
Post by: surfcowboy on June 11, 2018, 08:11:22 PM
I might clean up the sides of that resin block, or not. I'm liking the "prototype" feel of this thing.
Other pic is of the holes I drilled, filled with resin and chipped fibers, and then drilled through the resin to prevent water infiltration. If I can find some 3/16 threaded inserts this week locally, I'll wrap this one in a few more "30 min after work" sessions.
Ok, now. Am I supposed to have this rear wing with its foil down? If flip it if not. Who's got some facts, or even opinions on this one? I need to hear from the peanut gallery. Is that tail lifting up or pushing down? Strangely I'm thinking it should lift up to counter balance the foil wanting to wheelie but I'm guessing (and hoping) that I'm wrong. LOL
Post by: kiwi on June 12, 2018, 12:59:50 PM
Better explanation here: https://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Kitesurfing/General/Some-Foil-theory?page=1
What foil profiles have you used for your main wing and stab?
Post by: surfcowboy on June 12, 2018, 10:09:49 PM
The point of this was to see if you could foil, for $200 and zero knowledge and we're about to find out. ;)
Thx for the info on the negative lift totally makes sense now.
Post by: kiwi on June 13, 2018, 03:39:36 PM
Going to post it up to the zone in a couple weeks
Post by: surfcowboy on June 13, 2018, 08:13:06 PM
Charlie SUPUK got the wing down after I started this. I want to try his method next. I'm stoked on my fuse and mast, I'd like to have them separate but I've not sorted out how to really make that tight just yet.
Also my wing mount has too much play. I'm trying a fix in the next day or so.
Got the tail mount inserts in tonight, I'll be able to screw that wing on tomorrow. Getting so close.
Post by: surfcowboy on June 22, 2018, 10:24:10 PM
Bought hardware from American Kiteboarding and that'll be here. Also have an O'Neil wakeboard vest coming from eBay.
Probably have to paddle this thing next weekend and then hope to get down to SD for some boat time soon as well. Pics to come.
Post by: jrandy on June 24, 2018, 04:10:24 AM
Post by: surfcowboy on June 24, 2018, 10:13:57 PM
If one side of the mast is pretty smooth, the other is a bit rough. If it works well, I'll probably take that side down and redo it. But I'm ready to go.
My only concern is the middle screw hole that was put in to stop the "slop." I filled it pretty well with epoxy and hopefully coated the inside well. We will see. I'm hoping to do the wing mount one better on my next try. I used brass inserts and I'm pretty sure I'll be installing stainless steel ones before long.
Otherwise I'm happy with it and excited to see how it flies. Already found a friend to print a plug for my next wing. So I'm hopping back into Fusion360 as well.
Ride report next weekend I hope.
Post by: opie on June 25, 2018, 04:32:55 AM
Post by: surfcowboy on June 25, 2018, 08:20:53 PM
Post by: SUPeter on June 27, 2018, 05:38:35 AM
Post by: surfcowboy on June 27, 2018, 07:44:18 PM
Post by: clay on June 27, 2018, 10:21:18 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on June 28, 2018, 07:06:07 PM
I bolted up my rig tonight and it looks pretty good. For having never seen one of these and not having plans other than a bunch of dudes guiding me via the internet it's the foil equivalent of the Apollo missions to me.
However, how stiff is this thing supposed to be when it's on the wing on land? My mast is rock solid but the wing connection has a bit of flex so when I'm holding it sitting on the foil on land I can rock the board an inch or two side to side. Beyond that it picks up the corner of the wing. Is this "good enough" or should I be worried?
I'm assuming its impossible to make one 100% stiff and I hear of aluminum masts bending so I'm assuming all foils have some flex when a board is tweaking on them, no?
If not, let me know lol I'm assuming I'll know if it's too much Saturday. 😂😂
Post by: surfcowboy on June 30, 2018, 05:32:44 PM
I'll post pics later and a full explanation of the failure. It was so fun to do and I am anxious to get back in the horse. Hoping to turn the fix around fast. Need to get off my but and into the shop.
But overall, despite the break, it was a success and I'm fairly sure this thing will fly. So I'm energized to try again.
Post by: surfcowboy on July 01, 2018, 10:21:36 AM
The above post about flex was from where the break happened. When I put that carbon tube on I had to put it over the plywood extension where the wing mounts. Instead of seriously limiting the amount of wood and running the carbon through it, I left off the thickest part of the carbon and ran it over the outside section that mated to the wing (where the 45° cut is. That left a weak spot at this critical juncture. I don't think I can use the paddle tube mount and am going to something more like the simpler flat fuselage over the wing or like the axis with a plate. Additionally I think I'll blend the top of this piece up to the front of the mast to make a brace as this wing will be holding 128lbs (in my case.)
Now that I understand where the load is and more what that load is, I can test on dry land. So that feels much better than guessing.
Now, the big question. Can I stand back the carbon and splice in a front piece without rebuilding the whole mast/fuse assembly? I think that if I cut the fuse and re-lay a full 9layers of carbon again I can get this strong enough.
Oh and a "you were right" to all the guys who told me that the strength was in the carbon. The plywood might as well have been cardboard when the force of the water hit it. The carbon is all that matters. Those of you thinking of doing this out of foam, go for it as I really think that if you went with a bit more carbon than I did you'd be fine.
I'll try to get pics up later and draw out what I'm thinking for the fix for you guys to review. I'm actually really excited again to build on this thing. Being in the water got my juices flowing again.
Post by: opie on July 03, 2018, 03:55:19 PM
Hopefully you can splice it back together and give some video of your first rides soon. :)
Post by: surfcowboy on July 03, 2018, 09:20:03 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on July 15, 2018, 04:26:36 PM
I'm so unmotivated I almost started a new fuse from scratch but it's now the principle of the thing so I'm gonna try to patch this one up and get it in the air.
Post by: surfcowboy on August 05, 2018, 11:08:33 PM
After that, you see me mocking up a cardboard piece to cut my plywood pieces. Then gluing up my new front piece and finally a shot of it glued into the cut out area of the mast. I’ll carbon the hell out of it, likely 10-12 layers. And then adapt the wing to match it. From now on, the wings will have a flat spot on top to mount up to the wing, or, there’s a chance I might attempt to wax up the front and make a receiving pocket on the wing. Depends on how I’m feeling when this mast is all layered up.
Even got some time in Fusion360 working on new wing design. Who am I?
Post by: opie on August 06, 2018, 01:48:48 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on August 06, 2018, 11:09:29 PM
Post by: surfcowboy on September 09, 2018, 08:27:42 PM
The last time, I set it to be level according to the chord line, meaning the line drawn from the fron tip of the foil to the trailing edge. This puts the bottom of the foil angled slightly downward, meaning the leading edge of the bottom of the foil is lower than the trailing edge.
Just checking here. Should the bottom be flat or angled up? Or is my neutral point along the chord?
I’m hearing that I should have 1-3° of positive angle but not sure where to base this on.
Should be able to get this thing mounted again before long but want to make sure I’m not doing this wrong. What’s up foil builders? Flat bottom or what?
Post by: kiwi on September 09, 2018, 08:42:12 PM
The tool in this video is creating a surface parallel to the chord to measure AOA off.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTCyag5N_vE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTCyag5N_vE)
Post by: surfcowboy on September 09, 2018, 09:20:50 PM
I’ve been on this so long it’s become comical but I resupplied this weekend and have my new mount design so I’m off and running again.
Also ran into “Pacificmeister” of YouTube efoil fame out at County and he was super encouraging which is often all you need when you are deep in a project.
He also cautioned me about yaw stability with flat wings so I may be adding a little tail stabilization once I test this thing. We will see. My fuselage is not round so I’m wondering if that may act as a bit of a rudder as well.
Post by: surfcowboy on November 06, 2018, 08:34:35 PM
The idea is to bolt from below the wing into inserts in the bottom of the fuselage to mount the wing. The bulb on the front of the fuselage is 2 3/8” (60mm) wide. Wondering if that will be enough leverage to hold it on. The new Neil Pryde are narrower than that but I could put a plate on it or extend the base just a little with carbon but am really trying to get this wrapped up. Thoughts anyone?
The fuse will have 4 bolts. 2 on either side of the bulb and then 2 further back in a line towards the mast. 4 x 6mm bolts into inserts in the wood and carbon core to hold things in.
Otherwise I think I’m going to follow Kiwi and Container’s lead and start another wing out of plywood to make the prototype quick. Really want a 36” wide wing with some anhedral. Probably make another tail wing too.
One thing is for certain, it will not break at the same place as last time lol. I think the fuse is solid, now just need to make sure my wing can take the strain. Carbon is my friend there until I get a plywood one prototyped up.
Here goes, what do you think of my repair? Just got the hot coat on it last night. More pics to follow.
Post by: kiwi on November 06, 2018, 11:37:02 PM
I think the only reason the fuz wing join on naish and neilpryde can afford to be so small is of how they are molded and basically locked together
My first wing join was 60mm wide and it worked plenty good for a bit until I really started to turn it but it was probably a combination of things really.
with that amount of carbon it should fly sweet as
Post by: surfcowboy on December 01, 2018, 05:48:28 PM
I’m also testing drilling out one of the holes I did and putting resin with chopped and milled fiber in there and putting one in that. That may be better.
Once again, God bless the Zone. I might finish this thing yet.
Post by: surfcowboy on January 13, 2020, 06:04:46 PM
Decided to wait to learn to foil on a commercial foil. Just bought a Gong (see other thread on that.) but once I get my skills solid I’m going to fly this thing.
Things I’ve learned:
You can make a mast at home that is as strong as a commercial mast. But I’ll test this one to see how many layers it takes to make something that works.
I was a bit behind on my wing. My big thick 24” span will be funky no doubt. Especially with yaw.
I was a bit ahead on my Stab. Small stabilizers are all the rage and so I’m curious to see if I can adapt this one onto my Gong too.
The jury is out on the fuselage design but I think v2 could be a winner.
Bagging, working with carbon, all the things I learned here were invaluable on my path to being a shaper and board builder. I’ll keep adding as I can and as I test.