Standup Zone Forum
General => The Shape Shack => Topic started by: clinto on February 07, 2017, 06:27:38 AM
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I got an older Michael Dolsey 10' single fin in a trade for an old kayak i never used. Im not really excited about the build quality of the Dolsey but its a good loaner board or shorebreak board that i can abuse and fix as needed. I finally got the pad stripped off and i must say that i used a few suggestions from other zoners and it was pretty easy. My method was to use a multitool to shave off the foam of the pad first. That only took maybe 30 minutes. Then for the glue and left over amounts of pad i used desolve it citrus cleaner heavily, covered the whole board with plastic so it could marinate and not evaporate. after sitting for 6 hours it scraped off super easy and i had a clean deck in less than 25 minutes. I have been dreading the removal of that pad but thanks to you guys it wasnt bad at all.
I now an ready for the actual ding repair and there are probably 10 areas that need it. It nothing too major except around the grab handle. I really dont want to get into removing and replacing the handle being that this is a beater board. the deck is recessed around the handle so it sits higher than the surrounding glass by no more than 1/32 of an inch. Can i just use extra resin or cloth around it so it will all flow or should i sand the handle down a bit to get it more level with the surrounding deck? The deck seems solid so im not real concerned with a spongy surrounding area or anything like that. See attached pics.
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I think you got a nice trade. Looking at the 8 tie downs on the board, this would also make for a nice little crabbing boards. Use two throw lines, with the ends attached to some chicken for bait, then on the other end of the throw line, tie one end to a tie down and you're ready to go crabbing.
Attach some bungee strap and criss cross it to make an "X" shape and then you have a place to store the crab dip net. To put the caught crabs in, take along a burlap sack. Padding along in a salt marsh with the opportunity to bring home a crab dinner is an added bonus.
Can't help you any info on the handle, but I know your project will turn out well in the end.
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Nice project. I have to do the same to my old starboard 12-6.
You're making me want to go crabbing nightwing.....used to have traps when I was a teen....now I'm allergic.... :P >:(
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I'm afraid that handle is going to need re installing properly you can see the dark area of bamboo were the water is traveling down inside the board. The issue is made worse by the fact it is very hard to dry the bamboo out and get anything to stick properly to it. The foam around the hand has most probably got completely saturated and started to brake apart which is why it is compressing. You are best off cuting the wet stuff out and replacing it then do a new install with a better handle.
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Thanks Nightwing... i am pletty happy with the trade as well. Especially since that kayak sat in my yard for 6 years and i never used it. Crabbing is big around here and that is not a bad idea at all.
stoneaxe... I would much rather be doing all of this on a 12-6 starboard. Thats next i guess.
supuk... so do you mean just the area immediately around the handle or all of the discolored bamboo? The board hasn't seen water in over a month and nothing seems wet, but i could be wrong. Don't want to do the repairs and install a whole new pad only to find out that there is still moisture in there.
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any were the bamboo is darker will most likely mean moisture, its a great indicator for that (but that's about all) the board will not dry out on its own, unfortunately water can get in very easy but once its in side the bamboo and polystyrene its very hard to get out, the bamboo acts as hundreds of capillaries and allows water to travel easily down the fibres under the glass. Any small dings just sand back to the bamboo and wash with some fresh water then leave to dry as best as possible and repair. larger areas like the handle will need to be removed and inspect the foam to see what condition its in and just how much water is in there. Most of the time in high traffic area when the eps gets saturated it starts to break apart and looses any sort of strength so its better of digging out the wet stuff and replacing the area with fresh dry foam, it sounds brutal but its a lot quicker than trying to dry it out and then fix the mess that the old foam can bee in.
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I'd take that multitool we now know you have and cut that handle out and see what's going on around it. Then get a much bigger handle, like the blue planet handle and install it. You'll have a watertight installation with a much better handle.
There are a surprising number of people in Oregon using SUPs for crabbing. You can launch almost anywhere and reach areas that would take hours to get to by boat. You put in a few commercial-size traps, and then visit them to rebait and harvest, but you leave the traps out in the best places--year round in Oregon. I know a guy who lives on the street my beach house was on that supplies all his friends with all the crab they can handle. He only brings his traps in for repair. If you don't want crabs you just don't bait them.
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what Pono Bill said - Blue Planet handle, you will know its it fixed properly and have a better grip.
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Taking all of your advise i cut out an area 4"x6" around the old handle and removed it all. There does not seem to be any moisture that i can detect. I do notice that the nose end of the hole has some spacing between the foam beads. I am assuming that this is what Supuk was talking about the foam breaking down. It doesnt seem to be anywhere else so i am going to cut the hole another couple inches towards the nose and see if i can get past the bad stuff. I dont have the time unfortunately to wait on a blue planet handle so i got an FCS non vented handle. It is a def upgrade from what was there. They also gave me some scrap foam while i was there so i can fill the void and start fresh. Surf Source supplies in Atlantic Beach, FL are awesome. They have a great website with everything for shaping too. Anyway now the fun begins. I took a few pics of the open hole so please let me know if anyone sees more that i need to investigate.
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What are you using to set the handle in place?
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just press some paper towel on the foam you will soon see if there is any water, your very luck if there is not and it has just wicked its way down the bamboo. Install the new bit of foam with foaming pu glue like gorilla or similar.
The fcs handles are a nice easy install just route it out nice and tight and drop it into a nice lot of epoxy and micro balloons and let it cure, you can run glass around under the handle and out the side but I have done a 100 or so without and never had one fail. Then just put 3 patched of 6oz over the top making sure you don't have any bubbles, if you cut a I shape pattern into the patch it helps or just run around the opening with a blade to remove the excess, then sand back, hotcoat, sand and job done!
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Great explanation supuk. That is the plan. I was glad to be able to get some foam so i can be assured i do it right. I have some gorilla glue as well so i will utilize it for the foam adhesion. How long do i need to wait for the gorilla glue to dry before i start the rest of the epoxy and glass work?
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If I'm done doing something large with foaming glue I leave it over night so it can fully stabalse. You want to make sure it has fully finished expanding before you go sanding it flush or glassing or you can end up with a big bump that wasn't there before.
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Over the weekend i made good progress on the repairs. No moisture in the foam around the handle so i won that battle. I used the gorilla glue, vinegar, baking soda concoction to set the new foam block in the hole where the handle was. Did not really measure much and just kinda added a decent amount of each item and it worked great. I weighted the foam block down and the glue filled all the gaps and foamed out the top. Trimmed the excess off with mutli tool and done. I don't have a router so the multi tool and a sanding wheel on my dremmel took care of the new handle hole. Actually worked well. I now have fill coat and glass/ cloth coat done and now just need to sand and hot coat. I did have one area i went ahead and did the hot coat on, and it was really wavy looking. Is that normal? i also had issues with bubbles in the epoxy during the fill. Both with and without the q-cell. It was around 50 degrees the first day and 65 the second day. How do i counter act the bubbles in the future? The repairs aren't pretty but they are strong. Any suggestions for the gaps between my pad? the repairs are very visible so i can just deal with it or paint the deck under the pad. not sure i really want to get into paint honestly.
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Looks great. Don't paint, the repairs are battle scars. Warriors don't smear foundation makeup on theirs.
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I have successfully finished the repairs. There were a lot more than i anticipated, but i have am happy to say i did it right. Even though it is a spare board i know everything is very tight and solid. The new traction pad is great looking and was only $54 from amazon. Its made by Thurso Surf. Good solid pad with 3M adhesive. Now for some waves so i can get out and try it. Thanks for everyone's advice. a few pics showing before and after. A new pad really changes the look and makes it feel new again.
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well done!
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Very nice! You can be proud of that work for sure.
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Very nice repair job.
Let us know how she does when you take her out for her maiden session with you.
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Sweet! nice to give and old board new life.
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It seems like all of my boards are needing repair at once right now. Good thing I'm figuring out how to do it better with each repair. My latest issue is on a laird Pearson I just picked up. There is a crack around the fin box on one side of the center fin. The previous owner didn't notice it so he recently took the board out. I figured it had some moisture and set it in the sun for hours to start the dry process. No moisture came out at all. I check regularly but nothing. The box is still solid and is square with the deck. It's almost like the box separated from the resin inside the board but the resin is still sealing the foam. I'm thinking about just injecting some epoxy in the crack so it over flows and sand it. Should I open it up if there is no sign of moisture?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170625/5d4254901445ff149127bd1e18a6cc9d.jpg)
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Injecting epoxy does next to nothing--it's just unsupported and when the deck works it cracks. Now that you've had a board open you realize how thin the fiberglass is on a surfboard, and how close to the edge of yielding the structure is to keep the board light. Squirting some epoxy in just creates a lump for the glass the break around. If you want to keep the board it's necessary to replace the handle, but that's a good excuse to install one of the handles from Blue Planet. Beautiful job on your last project by the way. My work doesn't look like that--my boards look like those old pictures of battered war veterans.
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Clinto, I would install a fin and put some side pressure on it to see if the crack expands and contracts. I bet it does, in which case PB is right, install a new fin box the right way. It's a fun project, and you are more than capable.
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Brain fart, I was thinking you had a handle problem again, didn't look close enough to see it was a fin box. Early Sunday morning is my excuse. Lots of stress on fins, so injecting is an even worse idea.
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You guys always kill my shortcut lazy plans. That's why I ask. I don't have a router but need one obviously. Should I pay a pro to router out the old box or do myself if I have never attempted it?
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So router or not I dove in head first. Taped it off around the box, multitool along the edges, multitool to cut box in half, and then hole saw on the drill for the ends. I then used pliers to rip it out in pieces while being careful not to damage the glass or foam. It's not the prettiest hole but I'm all set for a new box. I started to get nervous during the removal but it only took 45 minutes total. Should I add q cell or chopped cloth in with the epoxy when I set the new box? (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170625/25055af40bd8b6067e8a3267e021776e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170625/4117295b06a25a754df7af9230894981.jpg)
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Looking good Clinto! I would case the fin box with HD foam as long as you are 'in there' so to speak.(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=29922.0;attach=75858)
(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=29922.0;attach=75903)
(https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=29922.0;attach=75904)
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He pretty much needs a router to do that. Since you are attempting to do this without routing (nice job by the way) the big problem is going to be getting your fin box down far enough in the hole. A little cleanup of the bottom of the hole and some test fitting could get you close. If you're in the ballpark of flush you can grind the box down a little while you sand the paint and hotcoat off to get to bare glass so you can taper the patch. I go pretty wide on finbox repairs - 3 to 4 inches on each side, if you've got some S-glass this is a good place to use it. As JRandy says, a PVC cartridge is the best way to go, adds a lot of strenght to a critical area, but you can get away with gluing it in with chopped glass, or better yet, some chopped carbon. If you mix the carbon in really well it comes unwoven and turns into lose strands. These will actually lay thinner than chopped glass so there's less chance of having the finbox stand proud in the hole. If you use carbon don't use much. You're not trying to make a carbon paste, just some fibers to strengthen the glue.
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Thanks guys. All of the videos i have seen where a single fin box was installed shows a fin box with alot of extra lip on it that is sanded down or grinded down after the glass sets. Is there other options? I am heading to our local shaper shop on Weds to see what they have and plan to pick up some scrap carbon as well. Do i need a lap of of cloth on top of everything once the box is set in place? Also, any tricks to getting everything inline and straight when setting the box? i have seen where they have the fin in the box and tape over it once square.
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Also, any tricks to getting everything inline and straight when setting the box? i have seen where they have the fin in the box and tape over it once square.
You can pencil in a line right down the center with a flexible straight edge. I use a PLS laser specially on a very long board to give me the perfect center line. I then make pencil marks on the tape around the box repair area that correspond to the four corners of the fin box. Then insert a fin, use square to position the fin at a 90 deg and tape it rail to fin to rail.
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I was able to get the new box installed last night. There is already HD foam all around the box area so i used a few scrap pieces of EPS foam as filler and got it set. I am concerned that i installed it too deep though. The box has a lip around the top that requires sanding flush once all is dry. It is looking like that when i sand flush to the deck i will not be able to sand the entire lip off of the box. That will make the flat top part of the fin box recessed in the board around 1/16" to 1/8". I can upload a picture later. It wont look perfect i know, but will it effect the ride at all? Otherwise, its ready to sand tonight.
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You are planning on glassing over the box, right?
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Being too low/deep with the box should not too much of an issue unless you sport thickly-foiled fins. I often end up putting a layer or two of cloth underneath one or both ends of the box to 'tune' the install.
Rather than grind/sand the entire lip off the box, use you multi-tool to cut most of the lip off before sanding, then use the sander with a coarser grit to flush it with the bottom. You will save time and not heat up the box so much. I have also used flush cut hand saws for the same purpose. Routers can do this too but one needs a fixture and it make a big mess.
I try to glass over them too. I put flour in the box (Swaylock trick) and masking tape over the top so I can do a mini cut lap once the resin sets enough to handle.
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I just stuff them with foam and finish with modeling clay. But flour sound kind of cool.
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JRandy, we might wanna explain the flour thing. It goes inside the fin slot, not in your epoxy around the hole. That way if the masking tape over the top leaks you don't get a fin slot full of epoxy and you can just dump the flour out when you're done.
As he says, watch the epoxy set, I check every 15 min or so after 30 min until it's just barely tacky and not hard and you can cut the glass just inside the lip of the box. It's rock solid that way.
This is all after it's set in the hole and cut off and sanded down.
If you don't have a power sander, that's the best tool to have. Don't let these fancy guys fool you, for backyarders and garage hackers, Harbor Freight is fine.
You are a badass with that multi tool by the way.
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The flour thing is brilliant. I am definitely using that.
Pono, yes i plan to lay a layer of 6oz over it all before im done. After all of this i do not want anything cracking again.
i went and bought a belt sander to go along with my palm sander today so i am ready for action with that.
Thanks for the multitool props surfcowboy. It is my new favorite tool for sure. It is so easy to manipulate and control without too much risk if i slip a little. I dont know how i ever got through any of my previous projects without one of these things. Especially ding repair.
I have been on the road all day for work so i hope to get everything sanded down and ready for final glass tomorrow. i am anxious to get it all flush to see if it sits level with the deck or if its a little too deep. Either way, this will be a very solid fin box.
Then the real challenge starts. Will i be able to paddle it? I am stepping down 30L of volume and 4" of width from my other board. I have a 4 day weekend to figure it out i guess!
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When you do a layer of 6oz always lay some 4oz on top so you can sand without compromising your strength layer. I favor three layers. One to fair, one to blend, one to hold all the shit together.
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I got the box and few other minor repairs done over the weekend. It turned out great thanks to all the tips from you guys. It is a bit recessed in the deck but turned out just fine. It seems to be level and straight so i am good to go. I plan to lay on a layer of black paint in some shape around the box area to help clean up the look a little. But then again i may not. Depends on my level of enthusiasm now that it is ride able and water tight.
One thing i now understand better is too much epoxy in one place can cause heat and melting issues. I was also doing a good sized deck repair on my dolsey and noticed some smoke. I quickly wiped all of the epoxy out of the void and found that it did melt some foam. It made it rise up and turn rock hard. I am so glad i did the fin box in the laird slowly with 3 separate layers so i avoided this on that board. Im getting much better at this repair thing and feel like i can fix pretty much everything going forward. Now if i can just learn to take the time and fine sand, paint and polish like Edubz does. I likely never will.
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Looks good. I generally glass completely over the box and just open the slot after the epoxy partly cures. That puts a little more glass on top to combat leaks. Something to consider next time.
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Thanks Pono. That is what i did on this one. The flat top of the box is just below the surface of the deck because i set the box too deep so it only was able to lay on the lip like you see. It set well and connects all the way across. Next time i know that the tabs on the outside of the box go at deck level and not just below it like i did here.
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good job but just a note for next time, the fin box you have there is actually supposed to be installed post glass. the little tabs are there to sit on the top of the glass and to set it in level, you then grind the top down to the surface of the board. If you want to do a pre glass install go for the futures one shot box.
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Nice job, Clinto--Pretty cool to be able to do most of your own repairs. I learned kind of like you did--after dropping my board off to a number of ding guys who all seemed like they could barely form a complete sentence or dress themselves. Figured if they could fix boards, I probably could learn too. ;)
Only suggestion I have is, if you do paint the area, consider something other than black paint--especially around a fin box. In the event it does get exposed to sun, that's not a place you want sucking in too much heat as a little bit of distortion around that box could lead to more repairs down the line. I usually hit my repairs with a top coat of white epoxy spray paint (they have rattle cans at most hardware stores). Gives a good final layer that will also show you pretty quickly if there's any kind of cracking or leaking.