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General Category => Downwind and Racing => Topic started by: FloridaWindSUP on February 07, 2017, 04:30:06 AM

Title: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: FloridaWindSUP on February 07, 2017, 04:30:06 AM
Our local shop got a shipment of 2017 Starboards including a 14x23 AllStar and a 12'6x24.5 Allstar for demo. That brought more people than usual to our shop team practice last night. Some of us did the demos formally, as a speed test.

400 m one way. 1 minute rest. 400 m return. Take the speed average of the paired runs. Then take a longer rest, then repeat the test with another board. Make sure you redo the first board later to make sure you weren't biased by being fresher on the initial run.

These were my results:

Board                    SPM   KPH
SB 14x23 Allstar   63.25   10.14
14x23 RP 2017   64           10.24
12'6x23 Hovie GTO   63.5           9.38
SB 14x23 Allstar   64.5           10.13

I didn't have enough daylight and energy to include the 12'6 AllStar in the test. Anyway, I was glad that my Riviera RP was, by a small margin, #1. Being more familiar with it probably helped, though. The full strava data for me and one of my teammates (who did test the 12'6 SB) are here:

https://www.strava.com/activities/857808564
https://www.strava.com/activities/857828055
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on February 07, 2017, 04:43:18 AM
Interesting. But what were the conditions?

It would hardly be surprising if a flat water oriented board like the Riviera was faster in flat water than the All Star, which is an all-conditions board, so will necessarily have compromised speed in pure flat water.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Chilly on February 07, 2017, 05:21:26 AM
I recently got to paddle the 2017 All Star 14x24.5. Itís a big improvement in flatwater over the 2016. I donít have data but could see that it slices through the water better. Also one of the things I didnít like about the 2016 was that it tracked to good, but they moved the fin box about 6 inches forward on the 2017 making it more maneuverable. The only thing I didnít like was the increase volume on the nose.
 
How did the stability compare between the two and any side by side pictures?
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: FloridaWindSUP on February 07, 2017, 05:36:15 AM
Interesting. But what were the conditions?

Good question. Conditions were flat water near slack high tide in a narrow river / canal. Only bumps were from other paddlers' wakes. Staying in the center part of the narrow river and threading the needle through some bends and overhanging trees and shallow spots was the only challenge. That made it helpful to have a feel for the way your board tracked and steered. I think I could plan my curves a little better on my own board than the others.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: FloridaWindSUP on February 07, 2017, 05:53:25 AM
I recently got to paddle the 2017 All Star 14x24.5. Itís a big improvement in flatwater over the 2016. I donít have data but could see that it slices through the water better. Also one of the things I didnít like about the 2016 was that it tracked to good, but they moved the fin box about 6 inches forward on the 2017 making it more maneuverable. The only thing I didnít like was the increase volume on the nose.
 
How did the stability compare between the two and any side by side pictures?

The 2017 AllStar 14x23 was definitely not "too tracky". In fact it turned more easily than I was used to so I probably switched sides more when I was using it. I did not think the basic stability was any better than on my Riviera, and it may have been a little worse, which would make sense because the Riviera carries more width and flatness further forward. The other testers were split in their opinion's on the board's stability, but nobody thought it was miraculously more stable than the average 23 wide board. One area where I thought the AllStar's stability was good was when stepping back for a buoy turn. I'll try to get some side by side pictures.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: baddog on February 07, 2017, 07:54:31 AM
Looking at the 12'6" data, it seems impossible slow.  5 mph on my 9'5" surf shape would seem doable in a sprint.  Am I miscalculating somehow?
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: FloridaWindSUP on February 07, 2017, 08:34:01 AM
Looking at the 12'6" data, it seems impossible slow.  5 mph on my 9'5" surf shape would seem doable in a sprint.  Am I miscalculating somehow?

9.38 kph is 5.83 mph. It ain't easy to sustain that over 400 m on a 12'6, and do it again in the opposite direction 1 minute later. At that speed 400 m takes about 2 1/2 minutes, and my body is not really capable of doing a 100% sprint for more than 1 minute, so the test is kind of a combination of sprint speed and just "going hard" speed. Max speeds I hit on the 12'6 during the trial were 11.something kph (~7 mph), but obviously that wasn't sustained for the whole interval.

That said, I was kind of disappointed that my speed on the 12'6 was so much lower than on the 14s. I think not being used to the feel of the 12'6, and having to change sides more often (which is more costly on the 12'6 since it decelerates so easily) contributed to my relatively low speeds on it. I'd like to repeat this test with some more 12'6 boards, like the 12'6 AllStar and a 12'6x22 Riviera that the shop has.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: baddog on February 07, 2017, 09:13:30 AM
Looking at the 12'6" data, it seems impossible slow.  5 mph on my 9'5" surf shape would seem doable in a sprint.  Am I miscalculating somehow?

9.38 kph is 5.83 mph.

Whoops!  I meant the 12'6" x 24.5" All Star from the link you supplied for Matthew K.  His speed calculated out to 5 mph.  5.83 and I wouldn't have posted :)

I should also add, I'd be lucky to do that over 100m, let alone 400m x 2.  With a bit of a url hack, I see Matt did 8.344 kph / 5.15 mph on the 14 x 23 All Star and that makes the 8.05 kph / 5.00 mph on the 12'6" x 24.5" All Star a lot more meaningful.

Now, we need to get you on that 12'6" All Star!  Fun data, regardless.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on February 07, 2017, 09:18:10 AM
FWS - interesting test.  Normally my times increase a lot  - as more sprint runs are made.  Your 4th run on the AS23 shows that speed to be very consistent to run 1.  Did you feel maybe you were more comfortable on it the second time?  As well - how would the 2017 AS23 and your RP23 compare in say upwind in chop if you were to guess?  My 2016 AS23 handles small chop like it is not even there.  Just floats right over and is so efficient paddling.  Feels kinda like cheating the wind.  Very low resistance and drag with that cutting boof design.  Also did you like the 2017 triple concaves and chamfered edges better than the 2016 w/o?  I find my triple concave design to be already perfect - as it gives me something to stabilize on vs roll.  Granted my balance is pretty crappy in steep cross chop on that board.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on February 07, 2017, 10:13:47 AM

I would recommend testing boards at the speed a paddler themselves races at. Sprint stuff can skew a boards true ability. Also, I would recommend taking a systems approach and using a stroke index as the metric (stroke length x average speed) using a garmin or a speedcoach. Physiologically, taking the effort upto a point where its a struggle means you'll add a lot of error into the testing that won't occur in your racing.

I'm very curious to see what board manufacturers go next for 2018.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: FloridaWindSUP on February 07, 2017, 10:35:11 AM
Whoops!  I meant the 12'6" x 24.5" All Star from the link you supplied for Matthew K.  His speed calculated out to 5 mph.  5.83 and I wouldn't have posted :)

I should also add, I'd be lucky to do that over 100m, let alone 400m x 2.  With a bit of a url hack, I see Matt did 8.344 kph / 5.15 mph on the 14 x 23 All Star and that makes the 8.05 kph / 5.00 mph on the 12'6" x 24.5" All Star a lot more meaningful.

Baddog, you're getting goofy numbers somehow. :) I have that Matt averaged 9.2 kph / 5.7 mph on the 12'6x24.5 AllStar, and 9.5 kph / 5.9 mph on the 14x23 Allstar. Maybe you're using his total time instead of his moving time? Remember the test is a 2 x 400 m, with a 1 minute rest between the two. If you're counting the 1 minute rest as part of the time you'll be underestimating the speed. Maybe you have to be signed into Strava to see the right stats and stuff. Matt also was wearing a HR monitoring during the tests so you can see his HR zip up and peg at around 185 on each of his runs, but again, maybe you have to be signed into strava to see some of that. 
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: FloridaWindSUP on February 07, 2017, 11:20:24 AM
FWS - interesting test.  Normally my times increase a lot  - as more sprint runs are made.  Your 4th run on the AS23 shows that speed to be very consistent to run 1.  Did you feel maybe you were more comfortable on it the second time?  As well - how would the 2017 AS23 and your RP23 compare in say upwind in chop if you were to guess?  My 2016 AS23 handles small chop like it is not even there.  Just floats right over and is so efficient paddling.  Feels kinda like cheating the wind.  Very low resistance and drag with that cutting boof design.  Also did you like the 2017 triple concaves and chamfered edges better than the 2016 w/o?  I find my triple concave design to be already perfect - as it gives me something to stabilize on vs roll.  Granted my balance is pretty crappy in steep cross chop on that board.

Hi Eagle- Normally my sprint runs decrease too, but in this test I had relatively long breaks on shore waiting for my turn, which helped. Yes, I do think I was more comfortable the second time on the AllStar, which cancelled out my being more tired.

My Riviera handles conditions without much fuss, but I probably wouldn't describe its rough water upwind/downwind performance with the same superlatives I hear you using for the AllStar. I'll try to do some testing at the beach to see if there's any big difference. I didn't spend enough time on the 2016 AllStar to be able to tell any difference between bottom shape effects.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: baddog on February 07, 2017, 02:20:27 PM
Whoops!  I meant the 12'6" x 24.5" All Star from the link you supplied for Matthew K.  His speed calculated out to 5 mph.  5.83 and I wouldn't have posted :)

I should also add, I'd be lucky to do that over 100m, let alone 400m x 2.  With a bit of a url hack, I see Matt did 8.344 kph / 5.15 mph on the 14 x 23 All Star and that makes the 8.05 kph / 5.00 mph on the 12'6" x 24.5" All Star a lot more meaningful.

Baddog, you're getting goofy numbers somehow...

Must be.  When I go to Matt's Strava link the only data I see is .7 k for distance and 5:13 for the moving time.  That's how I calculated the speed.  His 14' x 23' data was .7 k and 5:02 and again that's what I used.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: yugi on February 07, 2017, 02:38:29 PM
Interesting. I'd be looking for more than a 0.01 Km/h speed advantage for the risk of using a narrow board and getting my hair wet.

What is your weight?

Surprised on the narrowest board you got most yaw. I'd expect it would be easiest to have a directionaly neutral (vert as viewed from front) shaft on the narrowest board.

Practice makes perfect. I suggest to ask the shop to loan you the AllStar x23 and x24.5 until xmas so you can get tons of milage on them and report back if those numbers change. Let the shop know thereís a world full of paddlers needing your scientific input.

Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on February 07, 2017, 02:48:57 PM
If you are on a board that is too narrow for you then you tend to introduce rail steer through minute wobbles, and this affects tracking. This is how narrow boards can track apparently less well than wider ones, I think.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on February 07, 2017, 04:03:02 PM
Hey FWS - yeah upwind that little AS23 just hauls.  Just move back behind the handle and crank - it will split the chop and ride right over.  Awesome for that.  DW not so much for me.  Much prefer my surf Bullet V2 for small DW.  That board is in its element for that vs the 23 a bit too narrow in anything over 15 kts.  My pay grade is pretty low.  Haha.

Here is a track of my AS using 2 different fins.  Fin make a huge diff on that board.  Would guess that if you had more time with that AS23 your times would drop.  Maybe also try the Sprint 21.5 vs 23 as well.  :)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: gzasinets on February 07, 2017, 04:41:07 PM
Well, I am the new owner of the 2017 carbon sandwich SB Allstar 24.5. Thanks Eagle for all your wisdom.  ;)
I was hesitating on 23 or 24.5 but my primary goal was rough water performance and somewhat faster flat water performance compared to my SIC Bullet V2. I demoed one for a while and decided on 24.5 since i felt confident I would use it for flat water/downwind/downbreeze conditions in the Gulf and Biscayne Bay when things get rougher. So today on the Gulf coast we had winds at 15-18mph with knee high swell/chop. Coming from bullet i know well my perceived effort and my average speed in upwind/downwind. But on Allstar i am about on average 1mph faster! In today's conditions my bullet average for a 1 mile downbreeze run would be around 5.6-5.8 but on allstar my average speed is 6.4mph. I think it has to do with narrower outline and different rockers. But I agree with Eagle that bullet definitely felt surfier than the allstar. I am just getting familiar with this new beast but so far i am in love. Yes and upwind performance is great too. So dialing in. Hopefully i will be completely comfortable doing any dw conditions up to 30mph on the allstar and keep my bullet for when Atlantic gets really angry.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on February 07, 2017, 05:59:38 PM
Well, I am the new owner of the 2017 carbon sandwich SB Allstar 24.5. Thanks Eagle for all your wisdom.  ;)
I was hesitating on 23 or 24.5 but my primary goal was rough water performance and somewhat faster flat water performance compared to my SIC Bullet V2.

Ha!  Major congrats gzasinets!  You will love that 24.5 for what you are looking to do with it.  Glad I could provide some assistance.  AS 24.5 and Bullet V2 combo is very solid.  Excellent speed increase over that surfy Bullet!  Enjoy!  :)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on February 08, 2017, 03:14:05 AM
If you are on a board that is too narrow for you then you tend to introduce rail steer through minute wobbles, and this affects tracking. This is how narrow boards can track apparently less well than wider ones, I think.

Mind you, you've also got the potential for a more efficient paddle stroke as the paddle is being stroked closer to the centreline. You'd hope that with the right fin, that would counter the tracking issues.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on February 08, 2017, 05:46:37 AM
If you are on a board that is too narrow for you then you tend to introduce rail steer through minute wobbles, and this affects tracking. This is how narrow boards can track apparently less well than wider ones, I think.

Mind you, you've also got the potential for a more efficient paddle stroke as the paddle is being stroked closer to the centreline. You'd hope that with the right fin, that would counter the tracking issues.
Yeah, but instability impairs your speed and tracking far more than an inch or two narrower can enhance it (through improving your stroke and less drag). There are a lot of racers out there who would be faster on a wider board. But the mantra of "narrow = fast" together with the ego aspect of wanting to be seen with a narrow board means that people often overlook the evidence of their own GPS, or blame some other aspect of the board's design.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on February 08, 2017, 10:48:04 AM
Yep GPS tracks and timed runs are always best.  Very hard to dispute over repeated set runs.  Def if a board is too tippy - that is a problem.  Case in point - the discontinued Race 25.  No hard edges made that board roll like a log.   ;)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on February 09, 2017, 02:28:19 PM
In this vid - you can really notice the depth of the cutting boof design quite clearly - plus see how deep the centre concave is.  Still not sure about the chamfered edges though vs w/o on the 23 version.  I have to test that out myself.  Am very looking forward to trying out a 24.5 with my wife.  Think that board would be perfect for her.  She now has our Dom dialed in - and is ready to move on to something faster like that 24.5 with the extra edges.  Will be interesting to test one out at a demo this year.  If we got another board though - would have to trim out and part with one or 2 for space.  Probs 4 boards is optimal for us.  2 boards each -> AS23 and V2 for me - and AS24.5 and M14 for her.  Yeah -> that sounds about right.   Hmmm?  ::)

https://youtu.be/MaOWyL7Mmqs
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on February 09, 2017, 06:20:08 PM
That's a lot of nose to be catching side winds...

Coming to a Starboard catalog soon: "For 2018 we have reduced the nose volume to aid with crosswinds, and rounded out the nose to prevent nose steer in downwind conditions..." blah blah blah
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on February 09, 2017, 09:02:02 PM
Haha!  Yeah - looks like SB added more vee as well vs the 2016.  But even so - for AW the ht and vol s/b ok for our use.  For real DW runs and festive conditions - we would just pull out the V2 and M14 weapons anyways.  My wife actually gave me the green light on this today after a quick discussion.  So if the stars align - we may pick up a demo or CL deal this yr or next or whenever.  But like all our boards - if it happens it happens.  No worries either way. 

With 5 board options right now -> we always have something that works pretty much spot on.  We were actually talking how unstable the Dom was for her when she first started on day one.  And she can now paddle the 23 on flat no probs.  She def has progressed a long way. That Touring carbon was the key board in her SUP progression for sure.  Her balance has improved a huge amount - and something like that 24.5 would probs be perfect for her.  She def is ready as that 25 was super easy peasy with no tippy feeling at all last year.  :)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: yugi on February 09, 2017, 10:23:02 PM
Man that guy in the video sure talked a lot and didn't say anything.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on February 10, 2017, 12:00:00 AM
That's a lot of nose to be catching side winds...

Coming to a Starboard catalog soon: "For 2018 we have reduced the nose volume to aid with crosswinds, and rounded out the nose to prevent nose steer in downwind conditions..." blah blah blah

Too great a frequency (or too dramatic a change) with a boards design says more about the marketing department than it does about its design one.......
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: yugi on February 10, 2017, 04:25:24 AM
Haha!  Yeah - looks like SB added more vee as well vs the 2016.  But even so - for AW the ht and vol s/b ok for our use.  For real DW runs and festive conditions - we would just pull out the V2 and M14 weapons anyways.  My wife actually gave me the green light on this today after a quick discussion.  So if the stars align - we may pick up a demo or CL deal this yr or next or whenever.  But like all our boards - if it happens it happens.  No worries either way. 

With 5 board options right now -> we always have something that works pretty much spot on.  We were actually talking how unstable the Dom was for her when she first started on day one.  And she can now paddle the 23 on flat no probs.  She def has progressed a long way. That Touring carbon was the key board in her SUP progression for sure.  Her balance has improved a huge amount - and something like that 24.5 would probs be perfect for her.  She def is ready as that 25 was super easy peasy with no tippy feeling at all last year.  :)

Of course 5 board options work, and maybe theres a need to have a “his” and a “hers”. However here’s just a thought.

Consider a 3 board quiver hyposythis (Allstar23, Rail26, M14) and that of the two riders  “A”  is slightly faster and slightly better at handling chop/more difficult DW than rider “B”.

Flatwater: The AS23 is the optimal board, give it to rider B who can handle it on flats.
A light wind picks up and it gets choppy: Simply switch and give rider B the Rail which is the optimal board
Easy downbreezer: give rider B the Rail which is the optimal board , A rides the M14 if higher winds can be expected, or the AS23 if you think it stays light.
Sturdier downwind: give rider B the M14 which is the optimal board , A rides the Rail.
Heavy downwind: probably rider B sits this out if it’s really honking. Rider A take s the M14. 

In short rider B always gets the optimal board and Rider A takes another. Which has an advantage of leveling the playing field. Rider B enjoys the advantage. Rider A probably enjoys the additional challenge.
 
As Rider B improves to be able to go out on on bigger DWs on the M14 also rider A improves  skills to ride the Rail.

You will be very surprised at how fast and enjoyable the Rail26 is on flats and how quickly it gains advantage over other more-race-type boards for chop. It's surprisingly close in stability to an Allstar24.5. A little bit slower for pure flats but not lagging by much, quickly equivalent for chop, much better for sidewind and for DW. If you aren't both racing than it's something to think about.

Advantage. Buy one board, sell a couple. Opens the door for you to buy new. Rail26 new is not much more than a 2nd hand very recent carbon Allstar.

I still can’t get over that you aren’t on the board that  Jimmy made for you. It's a beauty. (<- yet another plus)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on February 10, 2017, 10:27:22 AM
yugi - actually my plan A was hoping my wife could at some point ride our 2016 AS23 for AW -> and for me to get the 2017 AS23 or Sprint 23 or 21.5.  But thought that was too much of an ask.  So proposed a more conservative plan B.  Haha!

Will all depend on the demo and if those boards are available for us to test.  If our V2 fell off the rack and snapped - then might get a Rail 26.5 to replace it.  Am really quite amazed how versatile that little AS23 is handling rough water.

Trick now is -> to see if my wife can handle the AS23 in chop and cross chop.  Shhhh!   ;)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: yugi on February 10, 2017, 12:35:59 PM
^that'll come with time on it
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: FloridaWindSUP on February 26, 2017, 02:47:36 PM
Matt and I have had a few more chances to ride the 2017 AllStars and compare them to our usual boards. I used the 14x23 AllStar in a 9 km race yesterday and reported my comments in a blog post here:

http://jimbodouglass.blogspot.com/2017/02/sup-race-report-mark-athanacios-2nd.html

Here are excerpts where I talk about my impressions of the AllStar:

"Note that Matt and I were not on our usual 14x23 Riviera and 12'6x24 Hovie boards, respectively, instead having been encouraged by CGT 's owners to test out the 2017 Starboard AllStar boards that CGT recently got in stock. We had already done some testing of these boards in the Imperial River, but we wanted to see how they worked over a long distance in varied conditions (boat wakes, chop, etc.), since the AllStar model is billed as being a fast, all-conditions raceboard. We used the fins that came with the Starboards- 18 cm short "Natural Winner" fins. The 12'6x24.5 Matt rode is the full carbon construction, and the 14x23 I rode is the less expensive "Hybrid" construction."

"I was a bit unsteady on the 14x23 AllStar compared with my more familiar 14x23 Riviera RP. The finbox on the AllStar is in a deeply recessed concave section of the hull, which I think reduces its effective length and its ability to steady the side-to-side movements of the board. I also think that the stability of the AllStar (like many boards) is affected by how far forward you stand. The nose is narrow and rounded relative to the tail, so if you're standing forward the board may be more apt to roll side to side. Finding the optimal standing position on the AllStar could involve a trade-off between standing further forward to fully engage the nose and lengthen the effective waterline, but standing far enough back to get the stability of the flatter part of the hull."

"The other board testing thing I did was put a larger fin on the 14x23 Starboard AllStar. That seemed to dull down it's squirrely, side-to-side tippyness."

Summary- 14x23 AllStar speed is on par with other 14x23 boards but it's stability is not quite as amazing as the advertising implies, at least not with the stubby stock fin.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on February 26, 2017, 03:32:49 PM
You did ok on that AS23 vs the 21.5 Hovie.  That little 23 is quite a versatile AW board.  Try it next in 15 kts DW.  Major fun city.   :)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: JEG on February 26, 2017, 05:19:45 PM
Matt and I have had a few more chances to ride the 2017 AllStars and compare them to our usual boards. I used the 14x23 AllStar in a 9 km race yesterday and reported my comments in a blog post here:

http://jimbodouglass.blogspot.com/2017/02/sup-race-report-mark-athanacios-2nd.html

Here are excerpts where I talk about my impressions of the AllStar:

"Note that Matt and I were not on our usual 14x23 Riviera and 12'6x24 Hovie boards, respectively, instead having been encouraged by CGT 's owners to test out the 2017 Starboard AllStar boards that CGT recently got in stock. We had already done some testing of these boards in the Imperial River, but we wanted to see how they worked over a long distance in varied conditions (boat wakes, chop, etc.), since the AllStar model is billed as being a fast, all-conditions raceboard. We used the fins that came with the Starboards- 18 cm short "Natural Winner" fins. The 12'6x24.5 Matt rode is the full carbon construction, and the 14x23 I rode is the less expensive "Hybrid" construction."

"I was a bit unsteady on the 14x23 AllStar compared with my more familiar 14x23 Riviera RP. The finbox on the AllStar is in a deeply recessed concave section of the hull, which I think reduces its effective length and its ability to steady the side-to-side movements of the board. I also think that the stability of the AllStar (like many boards) is affected by how far forward you stand. The nose is narrow and rounded relative to the tail, so if you're standing forward the board may be more apt to roll side to side. Finding the optimal standing position on the AllStar could involve a trade-off between standing further forward to fully engage the nose and lengthen the effective waterline, but standing far enough back to get the stability of the flatter part of the hull."

"The other board testing thing I did was put a larger fin on the 14x23 Starboard AllStar. That seemed to dull down it's squirrely, side-to-side tippyness."

Summary- 14x23 AllStar speed is on par with other 14x23 boards but it's stability is not quite as amazing as the advertising implies, at least not with the stubby stock fin.

good review and also imo if you are looking at size 14 x 24.5 allstar you need be less than 82kg (180lb), say around 75kg or less (170-165lb) to enjoy the board in all condition and if you are a pro or have great sup skill then ignore my opinion.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on February 26, 2017, 05:54:40 PM
At last some level-headed opinions on the All Star's famed stability. Well done guys, thanks.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on February 27, 2017, 08:48:19 AM
FWS - your comments are spot on about the AS23.  The very deep concave is an extreme SB design approach.  My impressions are this helps with tracking and is supposed to help with release.  Helps to stand about where the handle is -> so the tail can release ok.  Any further back and it drags.  It is twitchy at first because of that.  If you have a narrow stance that helps stability a ton.  Were you standing close to the edge - or in say 3" on each side.

As a Riviera brand ambassador what pros did you find with the AS23 vs the Rivera 23 you race on?  And would you have placed faster or slower on the more stable 24.5 AS?  You seemed to place well on that AS23.  ;)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: FloridaWindSUP on February 27, 2017, 06:59:20 PM
JEG- I'm about 75 kg so I think I'm within the OK range for the 14x23 AllStar. I did demo the 14x24.5 in the fall, and it felt extremely stable but noticeably slower (more draggy) than the 14x23.

Eagle- I had seen some of the comments on the forum about trying a narrow stance, but I don't feel like I can put down full power unless I'm standing fairly wide, which on a 23" board is very near the edge.

As for pros and cons of AS23 vs Riviera 23 I'll give it my best shot.

Starboard AllStar Pros: 1) People seem to like the superman colors on the SB better than the "distressed mint" colors on my Riviera. 2) Very "corky" high volume nose made it simple to paddle upwind in chop when I did some rough water training on it last week. 3) It's true that it catches bumps easily and carries speed well going downwind in non-ideal conditions. 4) Nice stability towards the tail for buoy turns- it may be a little more stable when buoy turning than my Riviera is due to the concave tail on the SB vs. the vee tail on the Riviera. 5) Maneuverable for a 14; not overly directional.

Starboard AllStar Cons: 1) So far appears to be 0% faster than a Riviera, but is definitely 150-200% more expensive. 2) FCS mount for the speedcoach GPS is too close to your feet, so it's kind of hard to look at it and sometimes in the way when switching paddle sides. 3) "Twitchy" stability with the 7" stock fin; short fin box not compatible with some larger fins. 4) For the same price you could order a carbon custom from Riviera with whatever individual tweaks you wanted.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on February 27, 2017, 07:58:44 PM
Yeah - seems about right.  The 25 we tried a few times had a lot more drag and was extremely stable.  That board seemed fine with 200 lb riders easily paddling on it last year.  Was way too stable for us.

The narrow stance thing is very helpful on that AS23 because of where the triple concaves are placed.  When standing near the edge every weight change is dramatically emphasized -> whereas when about 3-6" inboard everything stabilizes.  My stance has narrowed a lot on that board which is now reflected on my other boards as well.  On my Dom - each foot is about 6-8" inboard making that board feel over the top stable.  Virtually impossible to fall off now.  The power transmission was less at first -> but now is the same but way more efficient and balanced.  On none of my boards my feet are ever placed near the edge - unless surfing down and across swells.

For price - the carbon new was kinda silly.  So got mine for 1/2 price CL from the same racer who sold me the Dom years ago.  Was pure fluke.  Haha.  Twitchy is normal because of those deep concaves again.  You need to tip onto a side concave for more stability.  The FCS mount never use.  So basically your review pretty much matches up with my real world use.  Well done.   ;)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on February 28, 2017, 02:53:15 AM
At last some level-headed opinions on the All Star's famed stability. Well done guys, thanks.

Agreed. I tried a 12'6 24.5 the other week and (at 200lbs) found it too tippy. I thought it was just me. This said, everyone else on this forum seems superhuman as they seem to be riding 23 inch wide boards without a care in the world. I can't imagine doing a crowded race start on anything near that narrow.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on February 28, 2017, 05:10:14 AM
It's not just you. I have a 14x23" and no way in hell would I race it. It's for training only, and is never really pleasant to paddle. I can't really get my HR fully up because the instability affects my cadence and ability to commit my whole body to the stroke.

As we all know, weight matters a lot. So does height. And age. Plus build and style of paddling. Some people who are light and slim need to concentrate on minimising drag since the power they generate at the blade is relatively modest. Whereas their more mesomorph colleagues may specialise in getting the power down so need a stable board to keep an even keel while doing so. So it just depends on your strengths and weaknesses I guess. Last year Larry Cain raced the 14x25 All Star rather than the 23 I think, for this reason.

There is also a bit of Emperor's new clothes stuff going on sometimes IMO, or at least, post-purchase rationalisation. And then there are others who just frankly like to brag about how narrow their boards are (often not mentioning actual race results..).

I tried a 21.5" wide board a few months ago. On my knees I could get it to go crazy fast. I couldn't believe the peak speeds I was getting. But once I stood up I did the slowest couple of miles I've ever done on a SUP! I think I was averaging about 3.5mph haha! At least I didn't fall in though... But even on my 23" wide board (or my 14x25) I'm slower over distance than I am on my 28.5" wide one. I think that for me the optimal width/stability ratio is probably somewhere around 26" wide. I'd like to try the 2017 14x26 Naish Javelin in flat water.

ukgm: in pure flat water, how much slower (if any) are you on the Naish Jav than the Maliko over, say, 5 miles? I see you had a recent race success in flat water on your Maliko.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Luc Benac on February 28, 2017, 07:51:13 AM
This said, everyone else on this forum seems superhuman as they seem to be riding 23 inch wide boards without a care in the world.

Not quite...
I got my BF 24" for flat water at a very good price (which helps the decision making).
With the multi-fins "it is stable".
I will justify the quote/unquote by saying that as of now but after less than a dozen paddle on it, I still struggle to paddle the board with power for more than 3 km without feeling like I really need a pause.
I am not sure why exactly, as the board does not feel "tippy", but it might be inherent to the width that simply taxes the legs without one realising it on the moment. So paddling on your own, you feel like it is OK to pack and go after 6 km instead than after 10 km.
Don't get me wrong the narrow width makes it very nice to stack shoulders and the board is faster and accelerate nicely.
That said I do not thing that even with time, it will be able to replace my 26" of the exact same design (they were made for one person that did not take the boards after-all) for anything out at sea.
It has however I think many useful purposes:
1) as a fun fast flat water board that I know, I will still be able to paddle back to base even if the conditions worsen (I probably could not do that on a Sprint 23")
2) as a "race" board for the friendly informal races we have off-seasons
3) as a tool to challenge the comfort zone that I have on my other boards without falling in the water every 15 minutes
So even with a design that is inherently forgiving, I do not see myself going any narrower.

Of course , there is the Sprint UL 17'4 x 23", I wish I could paddle such a toothpick, reality check not unless it comes with amas on both side....



Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on February 28, 2017, 08:28:09 AM
Seems much ado about nothing.  Some like wider some like narrower boards.  So what.  We have boards 23-30" and have no probs about width or who rides what.  Peeps that ride and race that 21.5 Hovie or 21.5 Sprint good on them.  Requires a lot of skill and balance.  Gives the average joe a sense of perspective and appreciation what pros are capable of when they win or lose on those.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on February 28, 2017, 12:49:25 PM
It's not just you. I have a 14x23" and no way in hell would I race it. It's for training only, and is never really pleasant to paddle. I can't really get my HR fully up because the instability affects my cadence and ability to commit my whole body to the stroke.

As we all know, weight matters a lot. So does height. And age. Plus build and style of paddling. Some people who are light and slim need to concentrate on minimising drag since the power they generate at the blade is relatively modest. Whereas their more mesomorph colleagues may specialise in getting the power down so need a stable board to keep an even keel while doing so. So it just depends on your strengths and weaknesses I guess. Last year Larry Cain raced the 14x25 All Star rather than the 23 I think, for this reason.

There is also a bit of Emperor's new clothes stuff going on sometimes IMO, or at least, post-purchase rationalisation. And then there are others who just frankly like to brag about how narrow their boards are (often not mentioning actual race results..).

I tried a 21.5" wide board a few months ago. On my knees I could get it to go crazy fast. I couldn't believe the peak speeds I was getting. But once I stood up I did the slowest couple of miles I've ever done on a SUP! I think I was averaging about 3.5mph haha! At least I didn't fall in though... But even on my 23" wide board (or my 14x25) I'm slower over distance than I am on my 28.5" wide one. I think that for me the optimal width/stability ratio is probably somewhere around 26" wide. I'd like to try the 2017 14x26 Naish Javelin in flat water.

ukgm: in pure flat water, how much slower (if any) are you on the Naish Jav than the Maliko over, say, 5 miles? I see you had a recent race success in flat water on your Maliko.

The javelin accelerates much better but I still haven't done the scientific testing on it due to the weather being awful or the wind being in the wrong direction at my test venue. I've decided to wait until late spring.

I've spent the winter on the Maliko (which I love as an everyday board) but whether that's the right one in races is a gamble I've decided to go with in my early season races. It does struggle to go north of 9.5kph for long periods of time under my steam but I'm counting on busy starts and large trains this year and it's a very predictable board to deal with that. I'd love to go narrower but naishs 24 widths are too low in volume for me personally in my view. One thing I will say is that it might paddle with plenty of splash at the nose but it's deceptively fast - I ink many say the same about the new all star. The 2018 offerings may well prove interesting...

I'll get more data this weekend as I'm racing at a river race this Sunday which is likely to result in a time trial for me.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on February 28, 2017, 01:34:48 PM
"I'd love to go narrower but naishs 24 widths are too low in volume for me personally in my view."

24 or 23 or 21.5 wide boards are very much designed for certain weight riders that have balance.  They are raced all the time at those widths round here.  So maybe try something like the Riviera RP24 FWS races on -> or Infinity BF24 that kayadogg is selling -

"Don't be intimidated by the width, this board is really stable for a 24" wide board. A buddy of mine who is in the 230-240LB range paddled it in open water conditions with no issues."

Most peeps that are deep into racing go 24 or 23 or 21.5 depending on the conditions that day.  They have multiple board choices.  Maybe look at another brand or go supuk custom.  Thank goodness racing is of little concern to my wife and I -> otherwise we would be training and racing all the time.  Instead we much prefer to relax on the water with friends and have fun -> then have a beer or two on the beach.   ;)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on February 28, 2017, 01:51:28 PM
ukgm - 9.5kph seems very good to me for a planing nose board. For how long are you able to maintain those kind of speeds?
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Luc Benac on February 28, 2017, 02:10:28 PM
ukgm - 9.5kph seems very good to me for a planing nose board. For how long are you able to maintain those kind of speeds?

Until the afterburners burn out :-)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on February 28, 2017, 02:57:42 PM
"I'd love to go narrower but naishs 24 widths are too low in volume for me personally in my view."

24 or 23 or 21.5 wide boards are very much designed for certain weight riders that have balance.  They are raced all the time at those widths round here.  So maybe try something like the Riviera RP24 FWS races on -> or Infinity BF24 that kayadogg is selling -

"Don't be intimidated by the width, this board is really stable for a 24" wide board. A buddy of mine who is in the 230-240LB range paddled it in open water conditions with no issues."

Most peeps that are deep into racing go 24 or 23 or 21.5 depending on the conditions that day.  They have multiple board choices.  Maybe look at another brand or go supuk custom.  Thank goodness racing is of little concern to my wife and I -> otherwise we would be training and racing all the time.  Instead we much prefer to relax on the water with friends and have fun -> then have a beer or two on the beach.   ;)

Current sponsorship doesn't allow that. However, in future seasons, who knows !?
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on February 28, 2017, 02:58:59 PM
ukgm - 9.5kph seems very good to me for a planing nose board. For how long are you able to maintain those kind of speeds?

Until the afterburners burn out :-)

In the recent technical race I did on flatwater, I could hold 9.3 comfortably. I didn't push to hold 9.5 for longer than a minute or two as the situation didn't warrant it. However, I could sense it wasn't sustainable for me for long. I have only had my race board just over a month so I need more racing miles on it to get the best out of it.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Luc Benac on February 28, 2017, 03:26:59 PM
on flatwater, I could hold 9.3 comfortably.

Sigh!!!!! One could only hope, I could never do that without a serious current behind me.
Your cruising race speed is about my top speed for a sprint, live can be unfair :-)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on February 28, 2017, 05:19:53 PM
Yeah averaging 5.8 mph on a board like that is excellent. You'd be into the 6s on the Jav I'd have thought.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: mrbig on February 28, 2017, 05:46:59 PM
Wow. Rocketmen. Am able to maxout on my 12'6" Starby Race at 5.8 mph for about 30 seconds. And then my HR alarm goes off.. ;D  ;D
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on February 28, 2017, 11:46:19 PM
on flatwater, I could hold 9.3 comfortably.

Sigh!!!!! One could only hope, I could never do that without a serious current behind me.
Your cruising race speed is about my top speed for a sprint, live can be unfair :-)

That was for a 45 minute race. It's bound to be less for one of the typical English distance races of around 80 minutes. Reality will kick in then and I can't paddle a narrow board like you guys. I'm hoping to average 9.1-9.2 in these. Our fastest guys in this country will be 0.3-0.5 faster than that.

As a comparison, I was racing the 12'6 30 inch wide Naish one inflatable class last year and typically raced distance races at around 8.7kph for an hour.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on March 01, 2017, 01:11:29 AM
5.4mph average for an hour on a 12-6x30 bag of wind? You are doing very well indeed. Bravo.

By the way, real men measure their speeds in mph not kph. I'll bet you don't use kph when you are driving. Everyone knows that people just use kph to make it sound like they are going faster than they actually are ;)

I'll bet that you find that the Naish Jav is on average around 0.2mph faster over an hour in flat water than the Maliko. That seems to be about the speed advantage that a displacement nose gives in my experience. Maybe 0.3 if the board really trims well for you. But of course if your principal strategy is just to draft someone faster then I guess a planing nose board could make sense. The inverted noses like on the 2017 Jav can be devastatingly fast upwind in small chop. If you have a Jav and aren't using it because there's a puff of wind near you, you should give it to
me for testing ;) I want to try one but I don't really want to spend a whole day driving to a race and then hanging around waiting to do so. Races depress me. The last time I did a big one I won my class but came home so completely demotivated that I felt like giving up SUP altogether. So I'd rather demo in another environment if possible.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: mr_proper on March 01, 2017, 04:30:18 AM
You guys are really fast  :o.
My fastest average speed was 8.6 kph for 8 km.
My fastest average at my home course was 8.4 kph. This course (Danube river) is 1km harvor, 4 km upstream, 4 km downstream and 1 km harbor.
All of this with the Jimmy Lewis Sidewinder last summer.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 01, 2017, 05:40:43 AM
5.4mph average for an hour on a 12-6x30 bag of wind? You are doing very well indeed. Bravo.

By the way, real men measure their speeds in mph not kph. I'll bet you don't use kph when you are driving. Everyone knows that people just use kph to make it sound like they are going faster than they actually are ;)


LOL ! It's just the journal paper pre-programming I have about having to use correct SI units all the time !

Power isn't something I'm lacking. My technical skills need major work and sadly, being 94kg isn't ideal in this sport...
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on March 01, 2017, 07:47:17 AM
5.4mph average for an hour on a 12-6x30 bag of wind? You are doing very well indeed. Bravo.

By the way, real men measure their speeds in mph not kph. I'll bet you don't use kph when you are driving. Everyone knows that people just use kph to make it sound like they are going faster than they actually are ;)


LOL ! It's just the journal paper pre-programming I have about having to use correct SI units all the time !

No excuses! SUP, as a surf-based sport, uses imperial units. We measure our boards in feet and inches, and our waves, and wind in mph or knots. So there is no excuse for using the wrong units when it suddenly comes to talking about your paddling speed. You've been busted! You are big enough and fast enough to use grown-up units, rather than pretending you are French to seem faster ;)

Using kph is plain unpatriotic and well as confusing for most people :) :) :)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Luc Benac on March 01, 2017, 08:00:06 AM
rather than pretending you are French to seem faster ;)Using kph is plain unpatriotic and well as confusing for most people :) :) :)

Or Canadian.....we still have the Queen for now but metric/decimal is the official measuring system....
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 01, 2017, 08:13:38 AM
5.4mph average for an hour on a 12-6x30 bag of wind? You are doing very well indeed. Bravo.

By the way, real men measure their speeds in mph not kph. I'll bet you don't use kph when you are driving. Everyone knows that people just use kph to make it sound like they are going faster than they actually are ;)


LOL ! It's just the journal paper pre-programming I have about having to use correct SI units all the time !

No excuses! SUP, as a surf-based sport, uses imperial units. We measure our boards in feet and inches, and our waves, and wind in mph or knots. So there is no excuse for using the wrong units when it suddenly comes to talking about your paddling speed. You've been busted! You are big enough and fast enough to use grown-up units, rather than pretending you are French to seem faster ;)

Using kph is plain unpatriotic and well as confusing for most people :) :) :)

I purely measure my performance based upon how many boards were in front of me, how many were behind, how stupid did I look and how many times did I fall in.......
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 01, 2017, 08:16:24 AM
I'll bet that you find that the Naish Jav is on average around 0.2mph faster over an hour in flat water than the Maliko. That seems to be about the speed advantage that a displacement nose gives in my experience.

I'd agree with this. Plus since I doubt (at my size and ability) that I'll ever be racing anything south of 25 inches, that's the limit I'll see.

It might seem a bit odd why I'm using the board I am for flatter races but its mainly based on the nature (and my needs) to deal with crowded starts of 200 paddlers this year in my biggest races. I felt it was a stronger bet. There are other reasons too but I'll cover those another time.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on March 01, 2017, 09:43:16 AM
Well, one reason is probably that the Jav 14x26 is only 251L., and that's the biggest one they do. The Maliko 14x26 is 261L and that's already a bit marginal for a powerful unit like you.

26" is a very comfortable width I think for the broader-shouldered semi-serious racer. So Naish got that right IMO. (As they did having a DJ-size Maliko at 28" wide.) But 26" wide does need to be accompanied by enough volume that the waterline doesn't get too out of kilter with the pitch and yaw of carrying a bigger powerful unit. Much like if you put a bigger engine in a car you need to beef up the suspension at the same time to cope with it. I suspect that if a guy of your build really put the power down on the Jav you'd either submarine that reverse bow or else sink the rear. I'm 10kg lighter than you but I'd still wonder about 251L: My 14x23 Sidewinder is 253L and it is a little too low volume for me I think. I wish Naish would make some raceboards for Chuck Patterson rather than just Kai and Caspar ;)

But I guess they must know their market. But I  suspect next year though we'll see a little increase in the Naish race board volumes and rail thicknesses.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on March 01, 2017, 09:45:47 AM
rather than pretending you are French to seem faster ;)Using kph is plain unpatriotic and well as confusing for most people :) :) :)

Or Canadian.....we still have the Queen for now but metric/decimal is the official measuring system....
Yeah, but pretending to be Canadian would be understandable, whereas an Englishman pretending to be French would be unforgivable. :) :) :)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: pdxmike on March 01, 2017, 10:42:46 AM
rather than pretending you are French to seem faster ;)Using kph is plain unpatriotic and well as confusing for most people :) :) :)

Or Canadian.....we still have the Queen for now but metric/decimal is the official measuring system....
Yeah, but pretending to be Canadian would be understandable, whereas an Englishman pretending to be French would be unforgivable. :) :) :)
I accused an Englishman of pretending to be French, and he said, "Moi?"
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Luc Benac on March 01, 2017, 10:44:28 AM
rather than pretending you are French to seem faster ;)Using kph is plain unpatriotic and well as confusing for most people :) :) :)

Or Canadian.....we still have the Queen for now but metric/decimal is the official measuring system....
Yeah, but pretending to be Canadian would be understandable, whereas an Englishman pretending to be French would be unforgivable. :) :) :)

Downward impossible unless you are Peter Mayle :-)
Just realized I am both Canadian and French, no redeeming features here.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Luc Benac on March 01, 2017, 10:46:30 AM
And slow paddling......  :o
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 01, 2017, 12:02:35 PM
Well, one reason is probably that the Jav 14x26 is only 251L., and that's the biggest one they do. The Maliko 14x26 is 261L and that's already a bit marginal for a powerful unit like you.

But I guess they must know their market. But I  suspect next year though we'll see a little increase in the Naish race board volumes and rail thicknesses.

Next year will be interesting. I judge boards on an annual basis these days.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 02, 2017, 01:27:27 PM
Solid pace ukgm.  SB bumped up the AS volume this year.  Maybe Naish will increase the 24 volume next year -> and make a 22 for Kai.  The volume for the 26 Jav and Maliko is pretty low for mass market consumption.

Can appreciate the wash and wake from a mass start.  A wider board will be more stable in that.  But a narrow board is so much easier to propel.  No doubt weight plays a huge factor.  Kai is much lighter and about my weight - so a narrow board works fine for lighter racers and paddlers.

But can understand that if too heavy you will have difficulty with proper float and increased drag on a lower volume board.  Maybe the new 14x24.5 would have been a better option vs the 12'6 you tried -> or the 2016 AS14x25.  Not many that have raced the AS25 like LC found that particular board to be too tippy.  At about a 2:1 ratio SB dream team riders race the 23 vs 24.5AS.  None race the 27AS.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on March 02, 2017, 01:49:24 PM
Well, he's not going to get an All Star unless Starboard sponsor him, is he? So it's a moot point. Unfortunately for a beefy unit like ukgm, he's sponsored by a brand that have gone all waif-centred since they gave the boot to Dave Kalama.

Mind you, personally I prefer boards to be as low volume as will get the job done. So I think Naish are along the right lines. Spare volume above the waterline is just baggage and windage. So I don't think Maish need much of a change. Just a mild tweaking, so that the 24" wide is about the same volume as the 26" one is now, and the 26" is around the 270L mark. I like the basic design concepts of both the Maliko and the Jav.

I think a tad more volume in the nose and tail for the Maliko might help its downwinding ability too.

Well, that's what I'd do if I were them, anyway. But I'm not, so who knows?
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 02, 2017, 01:57:55 PM
Yeah obviously got that memo.  But he did note he plays sponsors year to year.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: yugi on March 02, 2017, 02:21:59 PM
...
 The volume for the 26 Jav and Maliko is pretty low for mass market consumption.
Ö

Which is what is nice about them. Want boofy? Look elsewhere. Hope Naish doesn't go and bloat them.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 02, 2017, 02:47:06 PM
Def low volume is fine for lightweight riders.  Perfect actually.  We have zero probs with that.  But the mass market general population is around 70% overweight or obese.  So it makes sense in some ways to add volume for heavier riders.  Most riders are not lean and mean like Connor or Kai or any top shelf pros.  Personally boofy is a bit much -> but it is what it is.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on March 04, 2017, 02:02:47 AM
...
 The volume for the 26 Jav and Maliko is pretty low for mass market consumption.
Ö

Which is what is nice about them. Want boofy? Look elsewhere. Hope Naish doesn't go and bloat them.

I don't think that anyone is suggesting radically altering the design. Just a minor tweak. Low volume boards feel great in terms of handling, and in bigger DW conditions and for surf they are FAR superior to boofy boards. So if you are a recreational user then they make all the sense in the world. But if you are a racer who needs that extra 0.1% speed to make the podium, low volume boards have disadvantages. Low volume usually means thin rails, and although thin rails make a board easier to control, they also are prone to catching. Consider what happens when a 94kg person puts a large proportion of that weight on one side of the board, when the rail they are standing on is either around 4.5" thick or is 7-8" thick. The narrower rail will tend to present a sharper aspect to the water, introducing rail steer - and drag. And if the water is choppy, it will more frequently spill over into the deck of a thin-railed board, which adds effective weight to the board and slows it down.

In tiny ways like this, thin rails come with a huge penalty for overall speed, at the same time as they add manoeuvrability, stability, and surf ability. So for a board that will be used for general racing as well full-on downwinding, the design has to balance these features, and these features are likely to be quite sensitive to the weight of the rider. Naish have clearly done an excellent job in balancing the board for lighter weight riders. And this is not about width or stability since they have addressed this point well also. Instead, it's about the hydrodynamics of what happens when a thin-railed board is put into an edge by different weight riders. I don't know how the thickness of the rails changes according to the width of the different Maliko (or Jav) designs, but maybe it needed a slightly larger ratio increase. Maybe just half an inch or so, which would hardly be noticeable unless you measured it. But it might make just enough difference to make the board even more user-friendly for heavier guys, and increase general paddling speed especially in chop and downwind without ruining the great things about the design.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 04, 2017, 04:04:49 AM
Yeah obviously got that memo.  But he did note he plays sponsors year to year.


To be honest, I'm pretty loyal with sponsors as I'm not a world class or elite  athlete and if someone has made the outlay and kindness to throw me a bone, I'm going to stick with them (for example, ive been in the same sponsored cycling team for years - despite getting the odd better offer). However, I never compromise my equipment at all just for the sake of saying that I'm sponsored. If I can't deliver to myself or my sponsors, then I'll step out. It isn't fair on either of us.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on March 04, 2017, 05:37:08 AM
Looking at this issue of board thickness of the Maliko, I notice that all three widths of the 14ft Maliko (24, 26, 28) are quoted as the same thickness (16.2 cms) in the Naish catalog. In contrast, the four different width All Stars are all different thicknesses, which suggests that Starboard have done more than just make the same board in different widths.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Luc Benac on March 04, 2017, 06:52:10 AM
Instead, it's about the hydrodynamics of what happens when a thin-railed board is put into an edge by different weight riders. I don't know how the thickness of the rails changes according to the width of the different Maliko (or Jav) designs, but maybe it needed a slightly larger ratio increase. Maybe just half an inch or so, which would hardly be noticeable unless you measured it. But it might make just enough difference to make the board even more user-friendly for heavier guys, and increase general paddling speed especially in chop and downwind without ruining the great things about the design.

It almost look like if a brand with a proven effective design could keep that design for more than a year and provide sizing of the same model i.e S/M/L with the same overall size 14 x 26 but tweaking on the thickness and the width. A Large Maliko for Bryce would be 26.2" and 5.5" thick while a Medium Maliko for Luc would be 26" and 4.5" or anything like that....
This is a little bit what happen (or should happen) with a custom shaper that knows his boards and has built some experience.
I could perfectly see that if you leave at reasonable proximity and like the shapes, a customer can built a relationship that would result in the perfect board after a couple of iterations over the months or years
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on March 04, 2017, 07:49:05 AM
Yep. That's exactly what I'm doing with my custom UL DW board - ordering another that is a tweak in terms of width, thickness and rocker to achieve the perfect board for me and my conditions.

But most purchasers won't really know what is best for them I guess, so rely on the big brands to tell them, and SUP is such a new sport that has developed so quickly that there aren't many local shapers around who have proven experience. You really need to race/downwind/surf yourself to know what you are doing.

It would be interesting to see the designs that the various zoners would come up with, if we all had CAD skills. If you started with a basic design you knew you already liked, I'd bet some good boards would result. I do think that perhaps some of the big name shapers are treated as if they have some godlike magical insight that has been uniquely bestowed upon them, whereas many of the boards I have paddled over the last 10 years have made me think that they are often just grasping around for ideas in a fairly hit-and-miss fashion.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: burchas on March 04, 2017, 07:53:20 AM
This is a little bit what happen (or should happen) with a custom shaper that knows his boards and has built some experience.
I could perfectly see that if you leave at reasonable proximity and like the shapes, a customer can built a relationship that would result in the perfect board after a couple of iterations over the months or years

Totally agree Luc. Rider has to be very experienced as well to successfully convey to the
shaper what exactly he/she is after.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 04, 2017, 11:00:52 AM
Can see your dilemma Bryce.  You want a narrower board but more volume to handle your 94 kg big unit weight.  That makes sense as generally narrower boards have less drag.  But sounds like the custom option is not available with Naish if you plan to stick again with them next year.  That was why a supuk custom option was thrown in.  A custom would give you exactly what you want.  But thought at one point you were also racing SB - so put in the AS option as well.  The 14x24.5 should be able to float you easily.  But you did say the 12'6 was kinda tippy for you.

Robby said the 26 felt kinda like riding a 28 and was very stable etc -> and you need not be 140 lbs to be competitive using that Maliko.  Is the 24 too tippy or way low volume for you?  Max weight was indicated at 200 lbs.

In your non-elite class what are others racing on that are placing ahead of you?  Would have thought that most are racing on 25 wide boards or less.

https://vimeo.com/178277073
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on March 04, 2017, 12:04:27 PM
SIC FX 14x25 290L?

The guy reviewing it here isn't quite as heavy as ukgm (although he's no flyweight) but he does mention specifically that it feels like it has enough volume for him whereas some other boards do not.

https://youtu.be/S3nH5RazGaA
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 04, 2017, 12:46:30 PM
The guy in the vid said he was around 190 lbs and that the FX25 "feels really really stable".

Seems the Naish boards are very low vol vs other brands.  According to Robby -> the M24 is the board to be racing on for Kai and the crew.

But if the other guys around 190 cannot ride it fast enough - then the 26 is the only other option.

There seems to be nothing at all wrong with being a flyweight.  In many regards that is a huge benefit when it comes to race results using those types of boards.  Lean and mean is generally regarded as a good thing in most all aspects of life.  ;)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: mr_proper on March 04, 2017, 01:52:24 PM
so put in the AS option as well.  The 14x24.5 should be able to float you easily.  But you did say the 12'6 was kinda tippy for you.

Yes, the 24.5 AS floats 93kg ok.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 04, 2017, 03:37:53 PM
Yeah - look like plenty of float.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 04, 2017, 05:02:50 PM
"In contrast, the four different width All Stars are all different thicknesses, which suggests that Starboard have done more than just make the same board in different widths."

Last year when we tried the 23 - 25 - and 28AS -> each felt completely different than the other.  The 28 felt like a barge upwind - the 25 a good very stable all purpose board for the masses - and the 23 a full on race machine for lightweight riders like Connor and Zane etc.

The Naish boards like the very svelte M24 would be an excellent complement to the AS23 we already have.  Got my eyes wide open now for that one now.  ;)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 04, 2017, 08:45:07 PM
The top 10 in the 2016 M2O were all pretty much lightweight riders.  All probs have very high strength to weight ratios -> and very low amounts of body fat.  They all have exceptional endurance and balance as well.  The times reflect how much of variance there is between first and last.

Norm H raced in this a few years back and he beat Jeremy R.  But was nowhere near the top 3.  He was way back and I talked to him about this.  He told me he could not keep up at all to the lightweight pros.  No chance at all.  That told me how flippin fast those light lean guys are.  Asked another sponsored top local racer and he concurred.  No chance at all to keep up.  Lean and mean is tops.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: yugi on March 04, 2017, 10:31:53 PM
Yep. That's exactly what I'm doing with my custom UL DW board - ordering another that is a tweak in terms of width, thickness and rocker to achieve the perfect board for me and my conditions.

...

which direction you going?

remind us of the current dimensions. Is it fast on flat?
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 05, 2017, 11:02:45 AM
Can see your dilemma Bryce.  You want a narrower board but more volume to handle your 94 kg big unit weight.  That makes sense as generally narrower boards have less drag.  But sounds like the custom option is not available with Naish if you plan to stick again with them next year.  That was why a supuk custom option was thrown in.  A custom would give you exactly what you want.  But thought at one point you were also racing SB - so put in the AS option as well.  The 14x24.5 should be able to float you easily.  But you did say the 12'6 was kinda tippy for you.

Robby said the 26 felt kinda like riding a 28 and was very stable etc -> and you need not be 140 lbs to be competitive using that Maliko.  Is the 24 too tippy or way low volume for you?  Max weight was indicated at 200 lbs.

In your non-elite class what are others racing on that are placing ahead of you?  Would have thought that most are racing on 25 wide boards or less.

https://vimeo.com/178277073

I'd agree with Robbie. I'm not sure if its due to the nose area design up front but the 26 really does feel like a 28. Its an incredibly strong and stable base - it's probably why I found the AS 24.5 a bit tippy as I'd just finished a race on my own board and then hopped on a friends out of curiosity. I personally think the 24 would be an ideal all racing one quiver board for many (and I would have gone for it) but its purely that the volume was clearly set for guys 20kg less than me and your analysis of my situation when shopping for boards is spot on.

It's funny you mention what my competition are using as most are using 24 or 25's (some are moving back to 25 or 26). Then will be some major migration to the 23 SB sprint this upcoming season too from their UK team paddlers. However, I'm both taller and heavier than pretty much anyone else racing over here by a fair margin. Fashions come and go so it will be interesting to see where 2018 boards go. For what its worth, if I stopped racing today, I'd keep what I have as an everyday board. It's so forgiving to use in such a broad range of conditions and I really think it has been well thought out as a design.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 05, 2017, 01:21:43 PM
"I personally think the 24 would be an ideal all racing one quiver board for many (and I would have gone for it) but its purely that the volume was clearly set for guys 20kg less than me and your analysis of my situation when shopping for boards is spot on."

Yeah - that little M24 looks to be the perfect vol for both my wife and I.  As lightweight riders - we pretty much find any board we hop on works fine.  As noted when I put a 40 lb kid on my Dom - I could barely paddle that board.  The drag increase was massive vs what I was used to.

The AS does have a little tip -> so makes sense the flatter M26 sits more stable for you.  A lot of peeps say that board tips.  Hopefully things will work out for you better in 2018.  :)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 05, 2017, 02:06:57 PM
"I personally think the 24 would be an ideal all racing one quiver board for many (and I would have gone for it) but its purely that the volume was clearly set for guys 20kg less than me and your analysis of my situation when shopping for boards is spot on."

Yeah - that little M24 looks to be the perfect vol for both my wife and I.  As lightweight riders - we pretty much find any board we hop on works fine.  As noted when I put a 40 lb kid on my Dom - I could barely paddle that board.  The drag increase was massive vs what I was used to.

The AS does have a little tip -> so makes sense the flatter M26 sits more stable for you.  A lot of peeps say that board tips.  Hopefully things will work out for you better in 2018.  :)

I think it will work out pretty well this year. I'll get my answer to that when the big races start here in a months time.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: supuk on March 05, 2017, 02:39:08 PM


I'd agree with Robbie. I'm not sure if its due to the nose area design up front but the 26 really does feel like a 28. Its an incredibly strong and stable base - it's probably why I found the AS 24.5 a bit tippy
[/quote]

Wide nose wide tail and low centre of gravity plus rocker = increased stability but sacrifices flat water speed
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Luc Benac on March 05, 2017, 02:58:36 PM
Wide nose wide tail and low centre of gravity plus rocker = increased stability but sacrifices flat water speed

Life is hard for the SUPers. We always have to sacrifice something.......
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 06, 2017, 12:08:57 AM


I'd agree with Robbie. I'm not sure if its due to the nose area design up front but the 26 really does feel like a 28. Its an incredibly strong and stable base - it's probably why I found the AS 24.5 a bit tippy

Wide nose wide tail and low centre of gravity plus rocker = increased stability but sacrifices flat water speed
[/quote]

I don't think the tail is that wide. I do find that the paddlers standing position window is smaller than, say an Allstar (and that's probably due to lower volumes at the tail) but if you keep your feet positioned around the carry handle the release is incredibly clean. Mind you, this is a fault I've seen with several other boards with sharp or piecing noses (in that the entry is clean but the release less so). Hydrodynamically speaking, it's better to have a messier entry and clean release than the other way around. I believe this is why so many paddlers are getting on quite well with boof noses when they think the board shouldn't when they see loads of whisker spray up front.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 06, 2017, 10:10:58 AM
There is defiantly a few things I think that could be improved on fairly easily however it felt a lot better than some of the mega volumes boards I have paddled recently. Some one get me the cad files and let me have a tweak around.

most of the changes I would personally make are near or above the waterline so shouldn't effect flat water speed, just mainly improve handling and improve average speed as a result of that

What sort of things would you tweak near or above the waterline?  And have you ever paddled the Maliko 14x24?  Had the impression Casper and Kai did ok on the Maliko.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: FloridaWindSUP on March 06, 2017, 11:01:03 AM
I had a chance to demo the 12'6x24.5 AllStar yesterday after a local race.

It felt stable and efficient for a 12'6, and had an interesting way of keeping its nose level in the water even as the aft section of the board porpoised with each paddle stroke, helping to maintain a consistent waterline and a steady pace. Whiskers of water definitely whizz off the little tiki icons on the orange tip of the bow, almost as if the icons were intentionally placed there to be little peeing fountains. Only when doing a really hard sprint would the nose (and the rest of the board) rise up and the whiskers move back further.

We talk about the SB AllStar noses being "boof" because they're voluminous above the waterline, but I think the part that actually contacts the water is closer to traditional cutting-bow displacement designs. Especially when compared to boards like the Fanatic Falcons that have more nose rocker and less vee at the entry, and have less waterline in flatwater.

There were two brand new custom 14x23 Hovie boards at the race that demonstrated extreme ends of the flatwater vs. allwater nose designs. I have some pics and impressions in my blog report on the race.

http://jimbodouglass.blogspot.com/2017/03/sup-race-report-cgt-winter-series-race-6.html
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 06, 2017, 11:21:50 AM
Hydrodynamically speaking, it's better to have a messier entry and clean release than the other way around. I believe this is why so many paddlers are getting on quite well with boof noses when they think the board shouldn't when they see loads of whisker spray up front.

This Touring carbon has a piercing entry and very clean pintail release.  All Bryan S needed to do was make it narrower -> but he moved to LK.  Would have been a flat water race weapon at 25 wide if not targeted as a SB touring board.  C'est la vie.  Many peeps complained at the time this 30 board was tippy because of the pintail.  But this was not really so.

The current Naish Jav nose kinda reminds me of the old Touring nose design.  Has the same "destroyer" flow Robby talks about.  With the pin plus a narrowed width -> that SB would have been fast.  On my 5 mile ocean loop it is the same as my Dom in about 10 kts of breeze.

Even at 30 though -> still is a super fun board in 15-25 kts DW.  Comparatively the boof spray is a turn-off but is fast if the board is narrow and efficient on flat.  Our AS23 cutting boof design succeeds at this.  Some peeps do also complain the 23 is tippy though.  So stability is really a personal matter and can vary wildly when boards narrow down.  That is quite evident.  The M24 looks to be stable and fast for DW though.  Looks like a real fun board.

https://youtu.be/FDJZDn8zgv8
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 06, 2017, 11:34:10 AM
I had a chance to demo the 12'6x24.5 AllStar yesterday after a local race. It felt stable and efficient for a 12'6...

We talk about the SB AllStar noses being "boof" because they're voluminous above the waterline, but I think the part that actually contacts the water is closer to traditional cutting-bow displacement designs. Especially when compared to boards like the Fanatic Falcons that have more nose rocker and less vee at the entry, and have less waterline in flatwater.

Yeah - when you look at the underbody the AS has a rolled vee design at the bow.  It is quite deceptive at waterline like a few other boards.  But here is the perfect example of the rider variance in stability.  Both FWS and ukgm race fairly seriously.  FWS found the 12'6 stable.  ukgm found the 12'6 a bit tippy.  Granted they weigh different amounts.  ukgm is probs heavier.

Have not tried the Hovie.  Looks kinda interesting.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 06, 2017, 12:25:25 PM
I had a chance to demo the 12'6x24.5 AllStar yesterday after a local race. It felt stable and efficient for a 12'6...

We talk about the SB AllStar noses being "boof" because they're voluminous above the waterline, but I think the part that actually contacts the water is closer to traditional cutting-bow displacement designs. Especially when compared to boards like the Fanatic Falcons that have more nose rocker and less vee at the entry, and have less waterline in flatwater.

Yeah - when you look at the underbody the AS has a rolled vee design at the bow.  It is quite deceptive at waterline like a few other boards.  But here is the perfect example of the rider variance in stability.  Both FWS and ukgm race fairly seriously.  FWS found the 12'6 stable.  ukgm found the 12'6 a bit tippy.  Granted they weigh different amounts.  ukgm is probs heavier.

Have not tried the Hovie.  Looks kinda interesting.

94kg and 6ft 3 for me.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: supuk on March 06, 2017, 01:40:55 PM
There is defiantly a few things I think that could be improved on fairly easily however it felt a lot better than some of the mega volumes boards I have paddled recently. Some one get me the cad files and let me have a tweak around.

most of the changes I would personally make are near or above the waterline so shouldn't effect flat water speed, just mainly improve handling and improve average speed as a result of that


What sort of things would you tweak near or above the waterline?  And have you ever paddled the Maliko 14x24?  Had the impression Casper and Kai did ok on the Maliko.

No not paddled the 24 wide. I would like to play with the deck shape on the nose a bit and also with the chines on the rails up front along with the volume distribution in the tail half
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 06, 2017, 03:52:23 PM
Seems like no one has tried or owns one of those M24 boards at the moment.  ukgm - have you seen racers use the M24 last year?   
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 07, 2017, 12:05:07 AM
Seems like no one has tried or owns one of those M24 boards at the moment.  ukgm - have you seen racers use the M24 last year?

No. Naish didn't have as much presence in the UK on hardboards the last few years. That will change this year as we're about to launch the UK hard board team here. FWIW, most of them (male and female) have mainly opted for the Maliko 24, not the flatwater Jav (or either board in a 26).

By the way, back to the thread itself, here is a very unscientific but interesting read nonetheless on an Allstar comparison I found last night: http://supvelocity.com/race-sup-speed-tests-comparing-the-2016-starboard-all-star-to-the-2017-all-star/
The testing itself is poor but it was interesting what they said about the 2017's stability and the differences. Seems like the 2016 board was an 'everyman' kind of a board.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: burchas on March 07, 2017, 04:43:46 AM
Seems like no one has tried or owns one of those M24 boards at the moment.  ukgm - have you seen racers use the M24 last year?

You could ask off-shore, I'm pretty sure he did part of his usual DW run on M24 board.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: mr_proper on March 07, 2017, 06:55:30 AM
By the way, back to the thread itself, here is a very unscientific but interesting read nonetheless on an Allstar comparison I found last night: http://supvelocity.com/race-sup-speed-tests-comparing-the-2016-starboard-all-star-to-the-2017-all-star/

Thanks for the link 👍
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Luc Benac on March 07, 2017, 07:31:25 AM
Seems like the 2016 board was an 'everyman' kind of a board.

Don't say that - you are going to deflate any happy owner of the 2016 All Star - and put a big smile on Area10's face regarding the magic of Starboard marketing :-)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on March 07, 2017, 08:11:56 AM
Seems like the 2016 board was an 'everyman' kind of a board.

Don't say that - you are going to deflate any happy owner of the 2016 All Star - and put a big smile on Area10's face regarding the magic of Starboard marketing :-)
I thought that was meant as a compliment, wasn't it? The 2016 AS comes out of that comparison very well. It makes me wish I'd been able to buy one. I tried to, but the retailer was unable to confirm with me that the handle was in the right place (I knew someone who bought one that year and the handle was quite a way off, so wanted to know before I handed over a £2.5k GBP) because the distributor refused to unpack the board to check.

I think the 2016 AS is almost looking like a normal displacement nose board now, so I'm not surprised if it is a bit faster in pure flat water, also being a shade narrower. But in the comparison the distances paddled were very small, and they compared the rather heavy hybrid construction AS with the much lighter full carbon board, so the jury is still probably out. It would be interesting to compare the two boards in choppy ocean and beach race conditions.

Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Luc Benac on March 07, 2017, 08:26:20 AM
Seems like the 2016 board was an 'everyman' kind of a board.

Don't say that - you are going to deflate any happy owner of the 2016 All Star - and put a big smile on Area10's face regarding the magic of Starboard marketing :-)
I thought that was meant as a compliment, wasn't it?

It depends for you and me absolutely, but I know of a few people that purchased the AS because it was to be a board of exception with a Connor like aura to it (more certainly the price was making it very exceptional when it came out!).
It looks like when a good design is already done, the tweaking or changes become a bit of a zero balance affair. Add a lit bit of speed, reduce a bit the stability and so on.....and not necessarily the manufacturer claim that it is both faster  and more stable.....
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on March 07, 2017, 08:40:54 AM
Well, by any measure, I'd say that the All Star 2016 design was a success. It sold well, and the scores of team riders that Starboard have (surely at least three times as many as any other brand?) got lots of podium finishes (although whether they did proportionally better than they should have done given their larger number of sponsored athletes would be interesting to investigate).

So you'd have to be pretty mealy-mouthed to criticise Starboard for the AS design. And the cost is not substantially larger than many other premium brands. However, whether the quality of the Starboard construction (and therefore value for money) matches the quality of other brands is a matter for more debate IMO.

If I were offered a 2016 AS now and a 2017 one, I'd actually choose the 2016. But then I like stability and adaptability. If you race a lot of flat water (and most races in my country are essentially flat water ones) then I guess you'd choose the 2017. I expect that for 2018 they'll go back to a more all-conditions design.

But it's great that Starboard are evolving their designs these days rather than having a lot of "one year wonders" like they used to. Naish too. I want to buy a design with proven pedigree, not the product of a hit-and-miss experiment.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 07, 2017, 11:09:32 AM
ukgm - thx for that AS link -> the review seems pretty much spot on.  The 2016 as an "everyman" kinda board is very accurate.  The 23 is tippy enough already in open ocean conditions.  Apparently the 2017 chamfered edges do in fact have pros and real cons.  But please keep us updated how the M24 riders perform vs the competition throughout the year.  Would expect some to podium.

buchas - thx yeah do remember offshore swapping with a Maliko.

offshore - by chance have you paddled the M24.  It looked like on the beach a 24 could have been laying there - but was kinda hard to tell.

A10 and Luc - the small evolutionary tweaks to the AS and Maliko make better sense for sure.  But SB should stop the year over year exaggerated marketing bs -> as all it does is erode consumer confidence - degrade the brand - and increase skepticism.  Most peeps round here have a pretty good bs meter.

https://youtu.be/fRYMj3HvV0s
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 07, 2017, 11:13:40 AM
Seems like the 2016 board was an 'everyman' kind of a board.

Don't say that - you are going to deflate any happy owner of the 2016 All Star - and put a big smile on Area10's face regarding the magic of Starboard marketing :-)
I thought that was meant as a compliment, wasn't it? The 2016 AS comes out of that comparison very well. It makes me wish I'd been able to buy one. I tried to, but the retailer was unable to confirm with me that the handle was in the right place (I knew someone who bought one that year and the handle was quite a way off, so wanted to know before I handed over a £2.5k GBP) because the distributor refused to unpack the board to check.

I think the 2016 AS is almost looking like a normal displacement nose board now, so I'm not surprised if it is a bit faster in pure flat water, also being a shade narrower. But in the comparison the distances paddled were very small, and they compared the rather heavy hybrid construction AS with the much lighter full carbon board, so the jury is still probably out. It would be interesting to compare the two boards in choppy ocean and beach race conditions.

I wouldn't take much from their results. By using time as the metric and only one run, the results are all in the noise as far as i'm concerned - the placebo issue would be horrendous. You'll get more value from their anecdotes (which were useful). If i were buying a do it all board now, I'd opt for the 2016 board, not the 2017 version. Its a shame they've stopped making a wider version of their sprint board though.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Luc Benac on March 07, 2017, 11:25:39 AM
Its a shame they've stopped making a wider version of their sprint board though.

I could have gone for a used 2015 Sprint 25" - if one had existed and one had become available in our local used market -  as a flat water distance alternative.
But this might have be too similar to the Race 25" for Starboard to justify having this model I guess. In addition, it might makes sense from a marketing point of view to keep the Sprint as the elite model that only hard core racers use but then again I would prefer more sales....
So far I have been fairly lucky to have reasonable connections to the SUP scene locally and purchased all my boards from people I have paddled with at one time or the other.
I have to confess that it is a major deciding factor in my purchase as I can try the board and take advantage of the "winter" pricing.
So for me second hand availability of a board actually plays almost as important a role than a slight change in design. I just cannot muster the $$$ to buy brand new boards.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 07, 2017, 11:57:05 AM
ukgm - would agree 100% you need to read btwn the lines.  The anecdotes represent better the 3 boards.

Luc - the Sprint 25 that I was going to buy a few years back was a huge amount more stable than the Race 25.  If not for the crack on the bottom I would have bought it.  I tried it and the Sprint was stable in the ocean.  But the NH 25 Eradicator you had was actually more stable and probs the same speed.  The E25 was a better board than the S25 by a longshot.  But if you want a lightly used Race 25 though -> there is one still for sale locally at a very good price.

I was offered to buy it before I got the AS23.  Send me a PM if interested.  He posts on this forum and has a 2016 AS23 for sale as well.  Very nice guy and a very highly respected racer.

Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Luc Benac on March 07, 2017, 12:42:42 PM
Yes Mike has been trying to sell his Race 14x25 and is All Star 14x23 for some time, no big secret here. There were also a few others that had trouble selling the Race, mainly because of its twitchy-ness. Same reasoning while it is a fast board if it is going to be twitchy then you might as well go with a Sprint.
The 2015 Sprint I believe brought quite a bit of stability compared to the 2014 but then was only available in 23". There are a couple available second hand for quite cheap considering the fast board it is. But in 23" it is too specialized a board requiring too good conditions for me to get one even at bargain price.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 07, 2017, 01:01:36 PM
Yeah Mike is the man.  And a very close bud of Norm as well.

Our mutual acquaintance who sold me his AS23 -> purchased the 2017 Sprint 23 to race this year.  Will be interesting to see how he does on that board.  He told me that he raced Round the Rock on the AS23 - first time without ever paddling that board and had zero stability issues.  Crazy good balance and power.  You know his bro as well as he posts on here from time to time.  Both great guys.  You did a DW with them when I passed by with wifey in the Porsche heading up to Whistler in the summer.  Looked like a great DW day with a few of the lads.  The number of guys DW is mushrooming now with many racers buying dedicated DW boards and getting in on the fun.

Is kinda unfortunate for us average joe paddlers not having reasonable balance like those guys.  Am trying every day to get better though on the AS23.  But those guys kill it.  Heard that Mike can do a backflip and land it on a SUP.  Wow!   :o
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Luc Benac on March 07, 2017, 01:15:17 PM
Ha that is what Dwayne is getting, makes sense if the 2017 is really more stable - according to Starboard. He is a lighter but strong paddler.
He used his Sprint 2015 at Board the Fjord but the conditions were so bad (wind/chop) that he had a hell of a time. That is one reason I do not want the 2015 Sprint 23". If conditions changed then I would have a very bad day or worse. I am sticking with the BF 24" so that I can be sure to at least to make it back.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 07, 2017, 01:34:12 PM
Ha that is what Dwayne is getting, makes sense if the 2017 is really more stable - according to Starboard. He is a lighter but strong paddler.
He used his Sprint 2015 at Board the Fjord but the conditions were so bad (wind/chop) that he had a hell of a time. That is one reason I do not want the 2015 Sprint 23". If conditions changed then I would have a very bad day or worse. I am sticking with the BF 24" so that I can be sure to at least to make it back.

Bearing in mind we're now 6 months from the 2018 boards dropping, I'd personally hold fire for new offerings or go later on for a 2016 sales bargain.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Luc Benac on March 07, 2017, 01:41:48 PM
Ha that is what Dwayne is getting, makes sense if the 2017 is really more stable - according to Starboard. He is a lighter but strong paddler.
He used his Sprint 2015 at Board the Fjord but the conditions were so bad (wind/chop) that he had a hell of a time. That is one reason I do not want the 2015 Sprint 23". If conditions changed then I would have a very bad day or worse. I am sticking with the BF 24" so that I can be sure to at least to make it back.

Bearing in mind we're now 6 months from the 2018 boards dropping, I'd personally hold fire for new offerings or go later on for a 2016 sales bargain.

The friend we are talking about is an "early" adopter :-), I am the "bottom feeder".:-)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 08, 2017, 04:02:16 PM
"In terms of stability, the 2016 is clearly more stable than the 2017 with their respective stock fins. Iíve read several reviews indicating the 2017 is ďas stable if not more stableĒ than the 2016 ó none of us found this to be the case."

These testers weighed in btwn 176 to 185 lbs.  Mid-pack to front mid-pack racers.  What was surprising about the results were the 3 testers all timed really good on the narrow tippy 2016 AS23.  Even though it was the most tippy by far -> it looked to be fastest overall.  Still if the results say are a wash -> this reflects the tippy 23 is not really any slower which some have speculated.  This matches well to my testing vs the AS25 demos.

The AS23 feels tippy at first -> but still remains very fast oddly.  It kinda defies what one normally would expect.  Tippy is expected to be slow -> but on that board you can still put down good solid power.  Probs has to do with efficiency and low drag.  Def with more time on the 23 -> their times would probs drop.  FWS did fantastic first time riding the AS23 as well.  Only 4 sec out of winning that race on the heavier hybrid version.  Not tuned at all for him - but basically an out of box OEM demo.  He really did well.  Bravo.

So looks like the 2016 is more stable without the chamfered edges.   For that little extra bit of speed though -> the 2017 AS24.5 would probs be slightly faster than the 2016 AS25.  Should have slightly less drag.  But looks to really depend on rider balance strength and weight etc.  Like always.  Rider then the board.  ;)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 09, 2017, 12:05:48 AM
"In terms of stability, the 2016 is clearly more stable than the 2017 with their respective stock fins. Iíve read several reviews indicating the 2017 is ďas stable if not more stableĒ than the 2016 ó none of us found this to be the case."

These testers weighed in btwn 176 to 185 lbs.  Mid-pack to front mid-pack racers.  What was surprising about the results were the 3 testers all timed really good on the narrow tippy 2016 AS23.  Even though it was the most tippy by far -> it looked to be fastest overall.  Still if the results say are a wash -> this reflects the tippy 23 is not really any slower which some have speculated.  This matches well to my testing vs the AS25 demos.



Ignore the times. They are a wash and pretty much worthless. For field testing using GPS systems, its been stated in publications that a data variability (the 'coefficient of variation' which is calculated as SD/Mean x 100) of <5% max is deemed as 'good'. In my own testing I typically get 2-3%.Even if these guys could do more runs and had the same robustness as I did that, it could still mean a swing of 2-3 seconds easily - if not more..... and that's if their controls were good (which we don't know but its doubtful as they openly concede its not scientific). That's why you shouldn't use time as a metric alone.

The only thing I would even indicate from those is that the heavier rider struggled with the narrower board. That's not unsurprising and maybe greater familiarity with it could have changed the result.

The question will be whether Starboard will persevere with the chamfer edges or remove them in a bid to drive the market even narrower. That might make sense in the long run as I definitely see a bit of avoidance in the secondhand market as soon as a board is narrower than 26 inches.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on March 09, 2017, 12:40:27 AM
Yes, well the use of a board is different for current vs. ex-racers, at least in Europe. Few people would choose would to do the paddle that many or most European races are unless it was in the context of a race. It would be too boring. Most new boards are sold to current racers who think that the latest confection is going to make them faster. So when they sell them used, they are often selling to people who want to do different things with their boards, and are usually looking for greater flexibility. If we had more downwind races for instance, there would probably be a greater market for used boards. Who wants to buy a used board that is as tippy as hell and can only be used on a lake? Not many.

I would think that the used market for a Naish Maliko 26 or 28 would be pretty strong, for this reason. All Star used values are probably partially kept down by the fact that Starboard make boards that look cheap, even if they aren't. The fit and finish are not to everyone's taste. I bought an used Ace that had only been paddled for a season and a half, and it looked like I'd retrieved it from a dumpster. By contrast, I bought a used JL Sidewinder that had been paddled to hell and back (including the 11 cities race) and it still looks really good. Since Starboard currently sells about twice as many race boards as any other brand (at least in the U.K.) this probably affects the overall used board value, at least in markets where they dominate.

Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 09, 2017, 01:14:24 AM
Who wants to buy a used board that is as tippy as hell and can only be used on a lake? Not many.

I would think that the used market for a Naish Maliko 26 or 28 would be pretty strong, for this reason. All Star used values are probably partially kept down by the fact that Starboard make boards that look cheap, even if they aren't. The fit and finish are not to everyone's taste. I bought an used Ace that had only been paddled for a season and a half, and it looked like I'd retrieved it from a dumpster. By contrast, I bought a used JL Sidewinder that had been paddled to hell and back (including the 11 cities race) and it still looks really good. Since Starboard currently sells about twice as many race boards as any other brand (at least in the U.K.) this probably affects the overall used board value, at least in markets where they dominate.

I agree. Sales of secondhand 25-27 inch Allstars and Maliko's remains strong in the UK. It's not helped by the fact that the race board market is small and even if you can cope with something sub 25,  race boards are not an easy everyday board to live with. The depreciation of most boards in the secondhand market is horrific. I wouldn't advise anyone to buy the more expensive lay-ups brand new if they are looking to sell them on again and aren't looking to race.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Luc Benac on March 09, 2017, 07:50:06 AM
Who wants to buy a used board that is as tippy as hell and can only be used on a lake? Not many.
I would think that the used market for a Naish Maliko 26 or 28 would be pretty strong, for this reason.
even if you can cope with something sub 25,  race boards are not an easy everyday board to live with. The depreciation of most boards in the secondhand market is horrific.

Yes on all counts.

First priority is to buy an "all-around - do it all" decently fast board i.e. 26"

Second priority (for most aficionados) is to buy a specialised board just for the fun of it and that will be used in more limited conditions:
i.e.
Flat water race board if you have access to flat water <26"
Downwind board if you have access to bigger downwind conditions >26"

This is for people really into the sport. The sub $600 Walmart market is altogether different.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 09, 2017, 08:37:13 AM
Cannot dispute the fact that high end race board depreciation is horrific.  That is why Luc and myself and others buy second hand.  Every year there is a glut of high priced boards dumped at very deep discounts.  We like that as non-sponsored average joe riders.  But the AS23 being as fast as the 24.5 and 25 is hard to ignore Bryce.  As well FWS paddling that AS23 to a near win.

Those 4 paddling a 23AS that fast is amazing.  Especially FWS doing it in an actual race!  That 23 is a bit tippy the first time you hop on it -> and generally takes some time before you can work out the jitters 100% before putting down the hammer.  Kudos to those 3 mid pack to top mid pack riders paddling the AS23 that fast.  The writer states they "should be representative of the general SUP racing population".  176 to 185 lbs should be heavier than very high strength to weight ratio pros Kai or Zane etc.  Weight is only one simple measure.  More important is the BF to muscle content.  ie. lean and mean vs over fat and often slow.  Two peeeps weighing the same amount only reflect they weigh the same amount.  But one can be way way stronger and fitter than the other.  Also balance is a huge variable.

"I did not think the basic stability was any better than on my Riviera, and it may have been a little worse, which would make sense because the Riviera carries more width and flatness further forward."

"I was a bit unsteady on the 14x23 AllStar compared with my more familiar 14x23 Riviera RP."

"Summary- 14x23 AllStar speed is on par with other 14x23 boards but it's stability is not quite as amazing as the advertising implies, at least not with the stubby stock fin."

FWS was a bit unsteady on the AS23 -> and the speed is on par with other 14x23 boards.  The 3 testers essentially confirmed that the 23 was basically the same speed as the 24.5 and 25 in that quick unscientific test.  That seems to be the take-away.  We decided to buy our AS23 because we expected it to challenge and improve our balance -> not to race.  A narrow board def does that without question.  But still need to find a M24 somewhere.  Where oh where is that little board hiding?  That is the mystery to be solved for us.  Looks like a fun board for sure.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: JEG on March 09, 2017, 08:11:13 PM
Cannot dispute the fact that high end race board depreciation is horrific.  That is why Luc and myself and others buy second hand.  Every year there is a glut of high priced boards dumped at very deep discounts.  We like that as non-sponsored average joe riders.  But the AS23 being as fast as the 24.5 and 25 is hard to ignore Bryce.  As well FWS paddling that AS23 to a near win.

Those 4 paddling a 23AS that fast is amazing.  Especially FWS doing it in an actual race!  That 23 is a bit tippy the first time you hop on it -> and generally takes some time before you can work out the jitters 100% before putting down the hammer.  Kudos to those 3 mid pack to top mid pack riders paddling the AS23 that fast.  The writer states they "should be representative of the general SUP racing population".  176 to 185 lbs should be heavier than very high strength to weight ratio pros Kai or Zane etc.  Weight is only one simple measure.  More important is the BF to muscle content.  ie. lean and mean vs over fat and often slow.  Two peeeps weighing the same amount only reflect they weigh the same amount.  But one can be way way stronger and fitter than the other.  Also balance is a huge variable.

"I did not think the basic stability was any better than on my Riviera, and it may have been a little worse, which would make sense because the Riviera carries more width and flatness further forward."

"I was a bit unsteady on the 14x23 AllStar compared with my more familiar 14x23 Riviera RP."

"Summary- 14x23 AllStar speed is on par with other 14x23 boards but it's stability is not quite as amazing as the advertising implies, at least not with the stubby stock fin."

FWS was a bit unsteady on the AS23 -> and the speed is on par with other 14x23 boards.  The 3 testers essentially confirmed that the 23 was basically the same speed as the 24.5 and 25 in that quick unscientific test.  That seems to be the take-away.  We decided to buy our AS23 because we expected it to challenge and improve our balance -> not to race.  A narrow board def does that without question.  But still need to find a M24 somewhere.  Where oh where is that little board hiding?  That is the mystery to be solved for us.  Looks like a fun board for sure.

that's an interesting pic Eagle?!
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 09, 2017, 09:34:32 PM
Hi JEG - Sarcopenia and loss of balance are major concerns we have in middle age.  We use our AS23 fundamentally to improve our balance.  We use DEXA scans to ensure we put on muscle mass and lose fat mass year over year.  Some peeps clueless lose "weight" -> but lose huge amounts of muscle and only a little fat.  Exactly the opposite of what the doc ordered.  But they lost "weight" tho -> so are very proud of that achievement.  Many are fooled by this drop in "weight".  Sad but it is what it is.

Strength to weight ratio is a much better measure of health power and fitness.  Weight is just a number on a scale.  Balancing on a narrow tippy board is a good measure of balance though.  Narrower the better -> provided you still have fun.  As the writer noted -> the 3 testers according to him represent the general SUP racing population weighing 176 to 185 lbs.  The did fantastic on that tippy AS23.  But yeah the images of fat vs muscle are startling when shown side by side like that.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 10, 2017, 05:05:34 AM
Cannot dispute the fact that high end race board depreciation is horrific.  That is why Luc and myself and others buy second hand.  Every year there is a glut of high priced boards dumped at very deep discounts.  We like that as non-sponsored average joe riders.  But the AS23 being as fast as the 24.5 and 25 is hard to ignore Bryce.  As well FWS paddling that AS23 to a near win.



What I like about the AS 23 is that if you can handle it, its a great compromise all round race board. It has the width to handle a fast flatwater race but with the nose to take some chop. However, the reality is that I doubt for those that race (and that isn't everyone) I can't see that board being manageable by us non-elites when you're working at max effort and surrounded by a 100 paddlers. The 24.5 is a better prospect I guess. Your take is unusual though (but makes sense) - if i wasn't racing, I'd be going quite conservative on a boards width and just enjoying the fact I'm not going to be falling in.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on March 10, 2017, 06:33:18 AM
I have distance SUPs that vary in width from 23" to 30" wide. I use the narrowest ones just for balance and technique training really - I can't really put the hammer full down on them. So I use the wider boards for aerobic/power development. It's hard to find a single board that would allow you to develop both balance and cardio/power at the same time. You could use the same board but in different conditions but then you'd probably be compromising somewhere on design which would be frustrating.

I often train with a bigger blade than I'd race with too. No one paddle does it all either IMO...

Good reasons to have a quiver :)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 19, 2017, 08:50:45 PM
"The 24.5 is a better prospect I guess."

Just tested the 24.5 with chamfered edges this pm.  It is def less stable than the 25 -> but is still quite a bit more stable than the 23.  SB did exaggerate the stability aspect in their vids.  The chamfered edges do give more roll vs the triple concave 25 -> but the 24.5 feels noticably faster and more efficient to paddle.  So with enough inherent stability the 24.5 with a touch less drag would be a my pref over the 25.  The 25 felt a lot slower.

For a mass start race the 2017 24.5 would be a good choice vs the 2016 AS 23.  Just provides that much more stability when needed.  The 23 requires much more concentration comparatively.  I may be doing a race on the 24.5 over 10 miles upwind while my female friend swaps and does the 10 mile DW return.  The total race distance is 20 miles - and we have to use the same board.  If she can get the hang on her 24.5 we will def do that race.  Sounds like fun.

Basically would not want the 23 with chamfered edges unless riding in more flatter conditions.  But for pros though -> def can see the 2017 AS 23 to be just that hair faster and more efficient through the water.  Quite interesting to see the number of old 2016 AS boards racing with the new 2017 boards in this vid though.  Young Finn shows he can play with the big boys as well.  :)

https://youtu.be/AiFwg01Sgy8

https://youtu.be/1-_H5jsL0Jg
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 20, 2017, 01:04:29 AM
I have distance SUPs that vary in width from 23" to 30" wide. I use the narrowest ones just for balance and technique training really - I can't really put the hammer full down on them. So I use the wider boards for aerobic/power development. It's hard to find a single board that would allow you to develop both balance and cardio/power at the same time. You could use the same board but in different conditions but then you'd probably be compromising somewhere on design which would be frustrating.

I often train with a bigger blade than I'd race with too. No one paddle does it all either IMO...

Good reasons to have a quiver :)

I don't have a large quiver of boards so I achieve a principle similar to what you describe by changing paddles, fins or through use of tennis balls towed behind the board.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 20, 2017, 01:09:37 AM
"The 24.5 is a better prospect I guess."

Just tested the 24.5 with chamfered edges this pm.  It is def less stable than the 25 -> but is still quite a bit more stable than the 23.  SB did exaggerate the stability aspect in their vids.  The chamfered edges do give more roll vs the triple concave 25 -> but the 24.5 feels noticably faster and more efficient to paddle.  So with enough inherent stability the 24.5 with a touch less drag would be a my pref over the 25.  The 25 felt a lot slower.

It makes you wonder where SB are going to take this board this year. I'm certainly curious as its probably the most popular race board out there. I think they are on the verge of pushing the board too far for their general market. What I feel they should have done is not had the chamfered edges but dropped the width a touch. That would have helped educate the market that sub 25 isn't the big deal it used to be. I think they changed too much in one year.

This all said, I'm seriously considering getting one of these at the end of the season to act as the donor board to test the Allison fin system.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on March 20, 2017, 01:59:44 AM
Never mind multiple fins and shaving half an inch of the width of a board, if you want to be a regular in the podium your best bet is to persuade Naish to bring out an UL board like Starboard have. You are probably too big to reach the upper echelons on a 14ft board, no matter what the design.

It would be great if Naish and Starboard would go head to head in the UL division, and reboot that class.

But of course, if you want to flog yourself to death in training and spend a lot of money on racing just to watch the guys who are the size of some 12 year-olds take home the silverware, then I guess that is up to you :)

Even better, get a UL DW board and set your sights on winning the Icon DW race, or the French downwind ones. Dave Kalama is a pretty beefy guy and he was still able to give nanoperson Kai a run for his money downwind even at twice the young superstar's age and probably about 140% of his weight.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 20, 2017, 02:40:44 AM
Never mind multiple fins and shaving half an inch of the width of a board, if you want to be a regular in the podium your best bet is to persuade Naish to bring out an UL board like Starboard have. You are probably too big to reach the upper echelons on a 14ft board, no matter what the design.

It would be great if Naish and Starboard would go head to head in the UL division, and reboot that class.

But of course, if you want to flog yourself to death in training and spend a lot of money on racing just to watch the guys who are the size of some 12 year-olds take home the silverware, then I guess that is up to you :)

Even better, get a UL DW board and set your sights on winning the Icon DW race, or the French downwind ones. Dave Kalama is a pretty beefy guy and he was still able to give nanoperson Kai a run for his money downwind even at twice the young superstar's age and probably about 140% of his weight.

Some viewpoints for you:

- At a localised level (i.e. within your own country), the main determinants of performance of part timers is training quality, not body size (at elite level this is obviously different). I still place ok in races as things currently stand because frankly many other domestic paddlers just aren't training enough or doing it the right way.

- UL is dead. I'd love to race one but the reality is that it will never take off as storage will be an issue for the masses and its going to be impossible to convince Joe average size that they need a board that is 4ft longer than what they (and everyone else) is currently using.

- SUP is my second sport so one of the reasons I'm relatively transparent about it is that it always seems to take second place to my cycling (not that I'm sized for that either !).
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on March 20, 2017, 03:57:11 AM
UL isn't dead. It's just waiting. It's chicken-and-egg. The brands aren't making them so no-one paddles them. But once you actually have paddled one, it's hard to go back. Storage isn't much harder for a 16 than a 14.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 20, 2017, 04:34:56 AM
UL isn't dead. It's just waiting. It's chicken-and-egg. The brands aren't making them so no-one paddles them. But once you actually have paddled one, it's hard to go back. Storage isn't much harder for a 16 than a 14.

You know this, I know this, but the masses won't need it. I've seen this with surfski's. People are moving to shorter ski's for practical reasons and the pool of paddlers in SUP that want to race is pretty small in the first place. I'd love to see it but I can't see it unfortunately.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on March 20, 2017, 09:21:50 AM
I don't think that it will be racers who will drive the return of UL boards but the ex-racers, keen downwinders, and explorers/adventurers. After all, Chris Bertish didn't cross the Atlantic on a 14 did he? :)

Racers might as well race on 10-6 boards, really. Once you sacrifice paddling pleasure for convenience, you might as well go all the way. 14 is still pretty inconvenient for transport and storage :)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 20, 2017, 09:34:45 AM
"It's bound to be less for one of the typical English distance races of around 80 minutes. Reality will kick in then and I can't paddle a narrow board like you guys. I'm hoping to average 9.1-9.2 in these. Our fastest guys in this country will be 0.3-0.5 faster than that."

A few guys bigger than Danny and up to Dave and Travis can do fine.  Seems to come down to strength to weight -> balance skill endurance etc.  Not many if any top local guys can keep up to either of those guys.  BF and lean muscle are useful determinants when it comes down to speed.  ukgm says he is fairly lean so he should do fine at the local level.  His average speed is good.

At the current pro level -> lighter weight lean but muscled low BF racers from around 140 - 160 win more races by far kinda like Robby says.  But guys up to 200 win many races as well.  They just cannot use the narrowest boards in the model line.  Instead they need to go up a width.  Larry is a good example as well.

AS23 -> AS24.5 and M24 -> M26 make perfect sense for the heavier serious racer.  Weight is not so critical as low BF and high muscle mass etc.

For us and many we know - moving up to a UL does pose storage problems.  14 is the perfect length board for us.  No question.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 20, 2017, 09:42:44 AM
"It's bound to be less for one of the typical English distance races of around 80 minutes. Reality will kick in then and I can't paddle a narrow board like you guys. I'm hoping to average 9.1-9.2 in these. Our fastest guys in this country will be 0.3-0.5 faster than that."

A few guys bigger than Danny and up to Dave and Travis can do fine.  Seems to come down to strength to weight -> balance skill endurance etc.  Not many if any top local guys can keep up to either of those guys.  BF and lean muscle are useful determinants when it comes down to speed.  ukgm says he is fairly lean so he should do fine at the local level.  His average speed is good.

At the current pro level -> lighter weight lean but muscled low BF racers from around 140 - 160 win more races by far kinda like Robby says.  But guys up to 200 win many races as well.  They just cannot use the narrowest boards in the model line.  Instead they need to go up a width.  Larry is a good example as well.

AS23 -> AS24.5 and M24 -> M26 make perfect sense for the heavier serious racer.  Weight is not so critical as low BF and high muscle mass etc.

For us and many we know - moving up to a UL does pose storage problems.  14 is the perfect length board for us.  No question.

Moreso it won't be strength to weight but moreso power to weight. Being strong is one thing but be able to deploy force, with an accompanying appropriate cadence (therefore power) is going to be critical. It's why indoor rowing is a big guys sport but outdoor paddling is a little different. The sooner we get power meters in SUP, the sooner this will become apparent.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 20, 2017, 09:53:04 AM
Yep.  Strength is one aspect.  But power application to the paddle blade propelling your board forward is key for sure.  If one wants to be more competitive and faster -> simply just drop kgs of fat and put on kgs of muscle mass.  Plus improve balance and endurance and nutrition blah blah blah.  Easy peasy really.  Just that most do not want to do this is all.  Or maybe cannot.  But weight is just a singular issue.  Strength and power and low BF really are important determinants.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 20, 2017, 11:08:08 AM
Here is perfect example of a young guy going from very lean -> to just kinda very dad bod average.  He put on 10 kgs of muscle -> but put on 10 kgs of fat mass.  His goal was to gain weight and muscle.  BF went up.  His result is very normal weight gain if one has no clue how to do it properly.  Many BBs get this result.  For the average joe though -> the gains are even less muscle mass and much more fat gain.  You really do need to know what you are doing to add muscle with no fat gain.

Body weight is just a bs number really for me.  What is your speed or strength or power - is much more descriptive.  Peeps should just get a DEXA and know for sure without speculating.  But yeah -> power.  Like that ukgm.   ;)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: supuk on March 20, 2017, 01:22:05 PM
UL isn't dead. It's just waiting. It's chicken-and-egg. The brands aren't making them so no-one paddles them. But once you actually have paddled one, it's hard to go back. Storage isn't much harder for a 16 than a 14.

Yes totally agree and back 7 or so years ago there were more unlimited than 14 in the uk. I know for me its going  to be hard to ever go back to a 14' DW board and I have even solved the storage issue for those that don't have space.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on March 20, 2017, 02:11:34 PM
UL isn't dead. It's just waiting. It's chicken-and-egg. The brands aren't making them so no-one paddles them. But once you actually have paddled one, it's hard to go back. Storage isn't much harder for a 16 than a 14.

Yes totally agree and back 7 or so years ago there were more unlimited than 14 in the uk. I know for me its going  to be hard to ever go back to a 14' DW board and I have even solved the storage issue for those that don't have space.
Yeah - for those who find that obscure, what he's talking about is a board that you can take apart into pieces.

Imagine flying to a race and taking your unlimited board with you!

Ok, so that's the storage issue dealt with. So remind me again why you are paddling a short slow board that is unsuited to you?
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 20, 2017, 02:32:03 PM
Yep.  Strength is one aspect.  But power application to the paddle blade propelling your board forward is key for sure.  If one wants to be more competitive and faster -> simply just drop kgs of fat and put on kgs of muscle mass.  Plus improve balance and endurance and nutrition blah blah blah.  Easy peasy really.  Just that most do not want to do this is all.  Or maybe cannot.  But weight is just a singular issue.  Strength and power and low BF really are important determinants.

This needs to be measured but if it's anything like swimming or cycling, it's not a strength issue as the applied forces are comparably small. Dropping excess weight is good but putting on excess muscle (for what is fundamentally an aerobic sport) is a bad idea.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 20, 2017, 02:58:56 PM
Yeah would agree that "excess" muscle is a bad idea ie big muscled BB.  But if under-muscled and more fatted up with too much IMTG and excess blubber -> then adding muscle mass is a good idea.  Most peeps fall in this category.  I lost about 25 lbs of fat about 3 yrs ago really quite easily - and my DEXA kinda looks like the 20yo kid before he gained 20 kgs.  My point for my age is also below the -2SD line.  Best thing ever for my health.  Hands down.  Makes any sport I do now so much easier -> without a doubt.

A quick way to measure is count the # of muscle ups or pull ups over your chin.  Another is to see how much you can unrack and squat or DL.  Is rough and dirty but works ok for a simple strength indicator.  You do need muscle mass for power etc.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 20, 2017, 03:55:35 PM
Yeah would agree that "excess" muscle is a bad idea ie big muscled BB.  But if under-muscled and more fatted up with too much IMTG and excess blubber -> then adding muscle mass is a good idea.  Most peeps fall in this category.  I lost about 25 lbs of fat about 3 yrs ago really quite easily - and my DEXA kinda looks like the 20yo kid before he gained 20 kgs.  My point for my age is also below the -2SD line.  Best thing ever for my health.  Hands down.  Makes any sport I do now so much easier -> without a doubt.

A quick way to measure is count the # of muscle ups or pull ups over your chin.  Another is to see how much you can unrack and squat or DL.  Is rough and dirty but works ok for a simple strength indicator.  You do need muscle mass for power etc.

Age in, I'd disagree. It's an aerobic sport and the applied forces are low. Paddlers would be better served working on their aerobic engine. It's not a strength sport.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 20, 2017, 05:25:58 PM
Was thinking that the aerobic side of the equation was a given from my perspective.  Most I know are fit and have really good endurance.  Many run marathons and ultras.  You can see in the images posted that many lose huge amts of muscle mass over time.  Normally that muscle mass is swapped directly for fat mass.  And huge weight gain.  That is just the reality for the huge majority.  Sarcopenia and fat gain.

Certainly those that have poor endurance need to ramp that aspect up as well.  With 70% OW or obese -> says a lot about the health of the majority.  Main concern really is fat mass loss then muscle retention then endurance.  No need for endurance if there is no muscle mass.  Little Finn is a good example of small muscle mass with very low body fat and good endurance.  Once that boy fills out with more muscle mass -> he will probs be a major force.

Until then -> his low body fat and aerobic endurance will only take him so far.  But obviously every circumstance is different.  Some need muscle.  Some need endurance.  Most need to lose fat mass.  My wife has really good endurance and balance -> but lacks muscle mass for example.  So there is no definitive single answer.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: gzasinets on March 20, 2017, 09:18:51 PM
Agree with Eagle here. Strength/weight ratio is very important. Squat 315 and deadlift 400 and you will paddle faster. Want to train endurance- lift weights in 20+ plus rep range and develop your slow twitch muscles. Running or whatever else 99% of folks are doing to improve their endurance will mostly lead to muscle loss/skinny fat look. It is a proven fact. Funny that people buy into the idea of cardio training - where as heart is the most trained muscle in our bodies and it does not need more training. Work on building more metachondria ;)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 21, 2017, 12:18:31 AM
Agree with Eagle here. Strength/weight ratio is very important. Squat 315 and deadlift 400 and you will paddle faster. Want to train endurance- lift weights in 20+ plus rep range and develop your slow twitch muscles. Running or whatever else 99% of folks are doing to improve their endurance will mostly lead to muscle loss/skinny fat look. It is a proven fact. Funny that people buy into the idea of cardio training - where as heart is the most trained muscle in our bodies and it does not need more training. Work on building more metachondria ;)

I think people are using strength and power synonymously which makes this discussion confusing. We need to be talking about power (a product of applied force and cadence). Most of the statements above feel a bit like 1970's sports science. For a start:

1) its not just about the heart, its about aerobic economy. Plus once you get past 35 seconds, an activity is powered mainly by your aerobic system. Your ATP and high force isn't much use past the first 6 or 7 seconds and specificity is needed so if the weights training you are doing is applied at a slower rate than paddling, its not going to contribute helpfully.
2) Peoples vo2 max for a start declines after 30 and gets worse after 40. This requires aerobic orientated fitness work to hang onto.
3) Show me any proof that squats and deadlifts lead to faster paddling.
4) Be aware of natural selection - if you want to look at anecdotes alone,, the only elite world class distance paddler I can recall that is of the strong and powerful build is Booth..... and without knowing his vo2 max, we don't know how relevant that is. The rest are small and skinny. The right type of physiology is starting to assert itself. It's about functional levels of strength.
5) Get your weight down. It's a power to weight issue, not a strength to weight issue. It's no good being able to apply huge levels of force if your cadence drops too far to apply it.
6) Does weight training have benefits ? Sure. I do it. However, unless you have imbalance or you're getting older (and I acknowledge your point Eagle - its why I weight train for general health purposes) and if your training time is limited, it would be better spent on the water.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 21, 2017, 12:19:31 AM
Agree with Eagle here. Strength/weight ratio is very important. Squat 315 and deadlift 400 and you will paddle faster. Want to train endurance- lift weights in 20+ plus rep range and develop your slow twitch muscles. Running or whatever else 99% of folks are doing to improve their endurance will mostly lead to muscle loss/skinny fat look. It is a proven fact. Funny that people buy into the idea of cardio training - where as heart is the most trained muscle in our bodies and it does not need more training. Work on building more metachondria ;)

I think people are using strength and power synonymously which makes this discussion confusing. We need to be talking about power (a product of applied force and cadence). Most of the statements above feel a bit like 1970's sports science. For a start:

1) its not just about the heart, its about aerobic economy. Plus once you get past 35 seconds, an activity is powered mainly by your aerobic system. Your ATP and high force isn't much use past the first 6 or 7 seconds and specificity is needed so if the weights training you are doing is applied at a slower rate than paddling, its not going to contribute helpfully.
2) Peoples vo2 max for a start declines after 30 and gets worse after 40. This requires aerobic orientated fitness work to hang onto.
3) Show me any proof that squats and deadlifts lead to faster paddling.
4) Be aware of natural selection - if you want to look at anecdotes alone,, the only elite world class distance paddler that is of the strong and powerful build is Booth..... and without knowing his vo2 max, we don't know how relevant that is. The rest are small and skinny.
5) Get your weight down. It's a power to weight issue, not a strength to weight issue. It's no good being able to apply huge levels of force if your cadence drops too far to apply it. So what if it makes you skinny ? You're paddling for performance, not for vanity.
6) Does weight training have benefits ? Sure. I do it. However, unless you have imbalance or you're getting older (and I acknowledge your point Eagle - its why I weight train for general health purposes), your training time would be better spent on the water.

On this subject, for those looking to do weights, I would also recommend faster lifting - i.e. being able to move weights with faster speeds - and plyometrics too. For those in their 20's-40's, training should be specific to the needs of the sport.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 21, 2017, 12:22:35 AM
Was thinking that the aerobic side of the equation was a given from my perspective.  Most I know are fit and have really good endurance.  Many run marathons and ultras.  You can see in the images posted that many lose huge amts of muscle mass over time.  Normally that muscle mass is swapped directly for fat mass.  And huge weight gain.  That is just the reality for the huge majority.  Sarcopenia and fat gain.

Certainly those that have poor endurance need to ramp that aspect up as well.  With 70% OW or obese -> says a lot about the health of the majority.  Main concern really is fat mass loss then muscle retention then endurance.  No need for endurance if there is no muscle mass.  Little Finn is a good example of small muscle mass with very low body fat and good endurance.  Once that boy fills out with more muscle mass -> he will probs be a major force.

Until then -> his low body fat and aerobic endurance will only take him so far.  But obviously every circumstance is different.  Some need muscle.  Some need endurance.  Most need to lose fat mass.  My wife has really good endurance and balance -> but lacks muscle mass for example.  So there is no definitive single answer.

I would suggest regular and consistent training of any kind would help the most. The problem is that paddlers who want to train go out for a paddle but often don't go out to train. I do take your point on muscle mass loss and age (it's why I do it) but I feel that many paddlers are assuming having more muscle is going to make them faster paddlers. No. Maximum development of their aerobic engine is going to make them faster.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: mr_proper on March 21, 2017, 01:51:38 AM
Interesting discussion. I think I am not unfit with 52 years, 193 cm and 92 kg. I have enough strength, I can paddle at least 90 minutes with more than 90% of the maximum heart rate and am still slow. Seems also the lack of paddle technic to be.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on March 21, 2017, 04:39:01 AM
OK sports performance experts, can someone please explain to me how Kai Lenny did this?

http://www.supracer.com/video-kai-lenny-stand-up-paddleboarding-race/

It seems to me that something very important for understanding flat water short distance speed occurred here. I'm just not sure what. "Kai is a freak" might be true, but it's not an explanation.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: yugi on March 21, 2017, 05:13:14 AM
Itís called skillz.

Something I thought was remarkably missing from the conversation so far. Clearly skills are the factor that make the biggest difference in SUP racing.

BTW: Rider weight and height clearly are factors in what board can be ridden.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 21, 2017, 05:30:05 AM
OK sports performance experts, can someone please explain to me how Kai Lenny did this?

http://www.supracer.com/video-kai-lenny-stand-up-paddleboarding-race/

It seems to me that something very important for understanding flat water short distance speed occurred here. I'm just not sure what. "Kai is a freak" might be true, but it's not an explanation.

Possibly that he has a well developed anaerobic threshold and is physiolgically biased to such short punchy efforts ? (his surfing background may well be a clue). A 4 minute effort is a vo2 max exhaustive test so that may well give an indication of his physiological profile. His stroke rate was very high which means he'd have a great vo2 max and level of efficency I would argue. Force increases isn't going to create the ability to up to a high cadence - it's aerobic conditioning.

He also has a very good power to weight by the looks of things.

Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: yugi on March 21, 2017, 05:34:42 AM
...
Possibly that he has a well developed anaerobic threshold and is physiolgically biased to such short punchy efforts ? (his surfing background may well be a clue). A 4 minute effort is a vo2 max exhaustive test so that may well give an indication of his physiological profile.

...

Which would of course explain his wins in Molokai 2 Oahu
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 21, 2017, 05:37:51 AM
...
Possibly that he has a well developed anaerobic threshold and is physiolgically biased to such short punchy efforts ? (his surfing background may well be a clue). A 4 minute effort is a vo2 max exhaustive test so that may well give an indication of his physiological profile.

...

Which would of course explain his wins in Molokai 2 Oahu

Potentially. If you're fit, you're fit. Bear in mind an Olympic track cyclist racing over 3-4 minutes will still train for upto 6 hours and that will generate huge amounts of fitness. Bear in mind though that M2O has a major technical component so its not really an apples to apples comparison. It's pretty unusual for an athlete to be great at a 4 minute duration and not have that translate up to much longer durations.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 21, 2017, 05:54:31 AM
Itís called skillz.

Clearly skills are the factor that make the biggest difference in SUP racing.


I'd be generally interested to know what this is based on. If you're talking surf races or downwinders, I can understand. If you're talking uncomplicated distance races, sure technique is a major factor. However, in a sport that isn't well developed yet, the events duration and physiological requirements will mean that in the short term, fitness differences are going to sort the pecking order out. You can't be a world class distance paddler any more with an average physiology. It's certainly the biggest issue in weekend warrior races I feel. Whether they want to or not isn't important but many paddlers just aren't putting the miles in.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on March 21, 2017, 06:02:18 AM
Kai was paddling 14% faster. I don't believe that Kai is 14% "fitter" than the other elite athletes, do you? A few percent maybe. But 14% is a MASSIVE margin, similar to the difference between a keen but strictly recreational paddler at a local race and the highly-trained semi-pro winner. Basically, he makes these other elite athletes look like amateurs. I don't think "he is fitter" is likely a good explanation. Maybe that would give him up to 5% but this is a difference in performance close to three times that.

Ukgm - you have no excuse now for not winning everything this season on your  Maliko. By your reckoning, it seems, if you don't it's just because you haven't worked hard enough at your fitness :)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: yugi on March 21, 2017, 06:03:44 AM
Clearly Kai Lenny is fit. And, as you say: If you're fit, you're fit.



Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 21, 2017, 06:18:56 AM
Kai was paddling 14% faster. I don't believe that Kai is 14% "fitter" than the other elite athletes, do you? A few percent maybe. But 14% is a MASSIVE margin, similar to the difference between a keen but strictly recreational paddler at a local race and the highly-trained semi-pro winner. Basically, he makes these other elite athletes look like amateurs. I don't think "he is fitter" is likely a good explanation. Maybe that would give him up to 5% but this is a difference in performance close to three times that.

Ukgm - you have no excuse now for not winning everything this season on your  Maliko. By your reckoning, it seems, if you don't it's just because you haven't worked hard enough at your fitness :)

14% faster doesn't mean that you need to be 14% fitter. You'll get similar gaps in other sports at Olympic level when the measured difference between something like vo2 max might well be within 3% or less. Sure, there are always other factors (things like the psychology or novel ideas like Noakes 'central governor' - in that some athletes can override their own mentally/physiologically established limits). Lets bear in mind that Arthur wasn't always in the direct draft and he kept up with Kai. Without knowing the power outputs, we just don't know.

As for me ? Well, in the races I have done well in, I can assure you I could always be faster (I'm only on year 3 in SUP and still improving - even at 41) and my technical abilities are by far my weakest area (I think I'm lazy in that department) but I do know that in the main, its my fitness load that is stopping me from being any more crap than I am !
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: yugi on March 21, 2017, 06:22:24 AM
I blame beer.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 21, 2017, 06:26:39 AM
I blame beer.

........ and in all seriousness, that's the great thing with being a weekend warrior. All things are not equal so you can maximise your advantages in a range of areas because the playing field is never level at amateur level. Lifestyle rules the roost.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: yugi on March 21, 2017, 06:47:40 AM
^ Aye.

... and to that I must add I blame society.

http://youtu.be/MKIaS0lh-uo
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 21, 2017, 08:48:08 AM
ukgm - Without strength you cannot generate power.  What gzasinets says about strength is valid and what proper says about technique is valid.

It is not one simple power solution.  You can generate a lot of power and still be very slow over the water because you have too much fat mass.  I have incorporated 3x BW squats and 2x BW DL with lotsa MU and PUs.  Has helped my SUP tremendously.  Whereas my legs and arms would fatigue -> they no longer do so.

Yes power to the paddle face is important.  We all know that.  We also know that strength and power are different.  That is very simple and straightforward and obvious.

Kai caught up because the others in front fatigued.  Happens all the time in races.  You reel a guy in because he just went out too hard and blew up.  Nothing special.  Now Bolt and Phelps are special though.  Not Kai really.

Strength to weight is about direct fat mass reduction -> not just simple weight loss.  Many lose a ton of weight but lose a ton of muscle mass and little actual fat loss.  Tons of clinical data confirming this.  ;)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 21, 2017, 09:39:31 AM
Yep.  Strength is one aspect.  But power application to the paddle blade propelling your board forward is key for sure.  If one wants to be more competitive and faster -> simply just drop kgs of fat and put on kgs of muscle mass.  Plus improve balance and endurance and nutrition blah blah blah.  Easy peasy really.  Just that most do not want to do this is all.  Or maybe cannot.  But weight is just a singular issue.  Strength and power and low BF really are important determinants.
This needs to be measured but if it's anything like swimming or cycling, it's not a strength issue as the applied forces are comparably small. Dropping excess weight is good but putting on excess muscle (for what is fundamentally an aerobic sport) is a bad idea.
Maybe you realize ukgm -> maybe you do not.  But it is extremely hard to put on muscle mass in middle age without putting on more fat mass.  You are only in your early 40s.  Really a youngster vs many others on this forum.  Sarcopenia has not yet ramped up for you.  Maybe not even middle age bulge.

As noted -> fat mass loss should be the primary goal with muscle mass retention.  So as to improve your strength to weight ratio.  This with heavy resistance training should improve your power to weight ratio if you do it right.  SUP specific and cross trained exercises blah blah blah.  Obviously.

Last year I lost an additional 1kg of fat mass and put on 1kg of muscle mass.  My weight stayed exactly the same but my DEXA body comp changed.  That was my goal last year and was achieved.  Adding another 5kgs of muscle would be nice with no more fat loss over the next few years.  Trust me on this ukgm -> it is very hard to put on only muscle mass in middle age.  ;)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 21, 2017, 09:47:02 AM
Yep.  Strength is one aspect.  But power application to the paddle blade propelling your board forward is key for sure.  If one wants to be more competitive and faster -> simply just drop kgs of fat and put on kgs of muscle mass.  Plus improve balance and endurance and nutrition blah blah blah.  Easy peasy really.  Just that most do not want to do this is all.  Or maybe cannot.  But weight is just a singular issue.  Strength and power and low BF really are important determinants.
This needs to be measured but if it's anything like swimming or cycling, it's not a strength issue as the applied forces are comparably small. Dropping excess weight is good but putting on excess muscle (for what is fundamentally an aerobic sport) is a bad idea.
Maybe you realize ukgm -> maybe you do not.  But it is extremely hard to put on muscle mass in middle age without putting on more fat mass.  You are only in your early 40s.  Really a youngster vs many others on this forum.  Sarcopenia has not yet ramped up for you.  Maybe not even middle age bulge.

As noted -> fat mass loss should be the primary goal with muscle mass retention.  So as to improve your strength to weight ratio.  This with heavy resistance training should improve your power to weight ratio if you do it right.  SUP specific and cross trained exercises blah blah blah.  Obviously.

Last year I lost an additional 1kg of fat mass and put on 1kg of muscle mass.  My weight stayed exactly the same but my DEXA body comp changed.  That was my goal last year and was achieved.  Adding another 5kgs of muscle would be nice with no more fat loss over the next few years.  Trust me on this ukgm -> it is very hard to put on only muscle mass in middle age.  ;)

Yep, I said I earlier I took your point and agreed with you. I would also say that it depends on background. If you haven't been doing weight training in your youth, its going to be virtually impossible to gain it significantly past 50. I recently took 5 years away from it, regretted it, and have now gone back to it (for the very reasons you mention).

However, I think some people are separately confusing this here as an endorsement for weight training as a means to improve general SUP paddling performance - irrespective of age. Whether it does or not has not been studied but there is plenty of other evidence out there of other related sports at elite level whereby it forms a very small part of the performance package and frankly, some people just need to train their fitness first. Being able to create more force, at a higher load, for around a 15 second stint is not going to make them race winners - its not specific enough to the needs of the sport.

Your options:

1) Strength training to deal with the effects of aging ? Yes.
2) Strength training to paddle a SUP faster ? May not be a high priority.

The key to paddling a SUP faster is training specificity. Identify your limiting factors (based on the events you do) and work on those as a priority.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 21, 2017, 09:55:51 AM
ukgm - Without strength you cannot generate power.  What gzasinets says about strength is valid and what proper says about technique is valid.



Strength has to be developed in conjunction with the needs of the sport. Being able to squat or bench 200lbs isn't relevant when the actual force generated at a stroke rate of 40-60spm is so small and is done so in a completely different time window. Your limiter will likely be elsewhere first. Cycling and swimming has been through this debate many times over so unless SUP is uniquely different, I strongly disagree. The only reason rowers and sprint kayakers still do large amounts of weights is since their races are generally shorter and the development of top end power (and ensuring injury prevention and force application symmetry) is still a major part of their races characteristics. As the race gets longer, you've got to prioritize aerobic development. (this is not ignoring the age related needs you have highlighted and is a wise consideration in some cases).

I'm not saying weights isn't relevant. What I am saying is that frankly many paddlers would be better served for getting an extra paddle in than they would going to the gym and shunting some steel. If you're not paddling at least 3-4 times a week, you're not going to be anywhere near your (age governed) best speed.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Luc Benac on March 21, 2017, 10:25:48 AM
If you're not paddling at least 3-4 times a week, you're not going to be anywhere near your (age governed) best speed.

I also find that for us having a very full time job, it seriously gets in the way of paddling and paddling at your top most definitely.
I supplement week-end paddling with
* yoga, power and hata - great for chore and flexibility
* Foundation Training - helps built a strong base for a strong stroke
And case in point, I am still a crappy paddler....
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 21, 2017, 10:28:25 AM
Most peeps have no clue that excess fat mass really is very metabolically active and kinda like an endocrine organ.  As hunter gatherers we were starving near 24 hrs a day.  We were very lean with hardly any fat mass to speak of.  That very same fat protected us from calorie starvation when we could not locate food.  Very simple and perfect.

But not sure who here is saying weight training has been studied for SUP.  But it def helps.  As well training your body for VO2 max and endurance blah blah blah.  I do sprint running intervals for that and active rest etc etc.  As noted if you are unfit -> obviously do some cardio.  Something anyways.

Haha Luc - remember when we first met years ago.  You on your red Touring pintail and me on my Dom.  The good ol days.  ;)

https://youtu.be/9gPiS2xsF-E
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 21, 2017, 10:32:44 AM
If you're not paddling at least 3-4 times a week, you're not going to be anywhere near your (age governed) best speed.

I also find that for us having a very full time job, it seriously gets in the way of paddling and paddling at your top most definitely.
I supplement week-end paddling with
* yoga, power and hata - great for chore and flexibility
* Foundation Training - helps built a strong base for a strong stroke
And case in point, I am still a crappy paddler....

Yep but all that matters is that you enjoy it. I still put in 12 hours training a week but that is split between bike, SUP and weights and I would be better at any of those if I got rid of the other two. The reality is that I have found ways to 'cheat' my training to get close to my best by cross training and that, these days for me, variety keeps me saner than being fastest in any one of those.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Luc Benac on March 21, 2017, 10:40:40 AM
Yep but all that matters is that you enjoy it.

That is the main focus :-)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 21, 2017, 11:11:23 AM
"Strength has to be developed in conjunction with the needs of the sport."

ukgm - as noted squats have helped my leg strength tremendously and DL my back and MU and PUs my upper body.  Obviously I do many other weight exercises as well.  Kinda is fun now in a strange way.

But without power to my legs and arms on my SUP -> I could barely paddle after 8 miles on a tippy board in the rough windy ocean.  Still remember that day vividly.  Had to paddle 2 miles on my knees upwind as my balance was shot in 15 kts.  Ever since then told myself I needed to get stronger.  And did.  Now no probs.

It is basic that strength needs to be adapted for the sport.  That is plain and simple.  But you do need to build up your muscles and CNS.  And heavy resistance weights do that.  Enough mileage is a given on a SUP and your balance improves.

But really my fundamental goal every time on the water is to have fun and relax.  My speed is really a non-issue.  I go plenty fast enough and have no pressing desire to go any faster really.  It is what it is.  I just take it and go.  SUP for me has always been about improving my balance in middle age.  Off water -> about fitness and strength etc.  :)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: warmuth on March 21, 2017, 11:55:26 AM
"Strength has to be developed in conjunction with the needs of the sport."


But really my fundamental goal every time on the water is to have fun and relax.  My speed is really a non-issue.  I go plenty fast enough and have no pressing desire to go any faster really.  It is what it is.  I just take it and go.  SUP for me has always been about improving my balance in middle age.  Off water -> about fitness and strength etc.  :)

  Although I enjoy training and competition now I do look forward to the day when the desire to race is gone and I can own one touring sup and one surfing sup and only paddle for pure fun.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Luc Benac on March 21, 2017, 12:11:10 PM
  Although I enjoy training and competition now I do look forward to the day when the desire to race is gone and I can own one touring sup and one surfing sup and only paddle for pure fun.

You will still be missing a downwind board - it is fun :-)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 21, 2017, 12:31:26 PM
Haha!  Generally if someone challenges me on the water.  Still game on!  Luc knows.  Applies to sailing and SUP equally.  Basically retired from sailboat racing 5 yrs ago.  But was challenged to give it a go again.  Won the race -> and was super fun and very exciting.

For SUP was asked to team up and do a 20 mi relay.  Just depends if my partner feels comfortable to do it on her new board 24.5AS.  For me am ready to race tomorrow on that board.  It feels very efficient and slippery.  But much more stable than my 23.  Paddle 5-10 miles all the time on my 23 now.  So should be fun if we can make that race happen.

But Luc is right -> you need to DW.  That is way more fun than bs flat water torture racing.  ;)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Area 10 on March 21, 2017, 01:34:45 PM
Downwinding really is what SUP is for, I think. SUPs are laughably slow in flat water. And they are slow and ponderous in surf compared to prone surfing. But when downwinding, the characteristics of SUP become advantages - such as standing up providing a sail area, and being able to move around the board in a way that you cannot in eg. surfski or OC. Downwinding is physically demanding, logistically demanding, can be dangerous, and requires a lot of ancillary skills and experience (swimming, surfing etc). But for me, it is the most fun and thrills you can have on a SUP, short perhaps of big wave riding. In big downwind conditions there is just so much happening, and so much raw energy around you. You don't need to be competing against anyone else to get an adrenaline rush.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: yugi on March 21, 2017, 01:45:06 PM
word
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: warmuth on March 22, 2017, 03:19:52 AM
  Touring board was the wrong term. M14, 28" Maliko, 29" Sidewinder, Bullet V1, a board like those as a single all purpose board. Surfing, around here I'll take a sup every time. I'm past the point of radical shortboarding. I've had a lot of fun even surfing raceboards.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: yugi on March 22, 2017, 03:36:02 AM
^ they make great touring boards.

But wouldn't an Allstar also?
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 22, 2017, 07:47:22 PM
Agree with Eagle here. Strength/weight ratio is very important. Squat 315 and deadlift 400 and you will paddle faster. Want to train endurance- lift weights in 20+ plus rep range and develop your slow twitch muscles. Running or whatever else 99% of folks are doing to improve their endurance will mostly lead to muscle loss/skinny fat look. It is a proven fact. Funny that people buy into the idea of cardio training - where as heart is the most trained muscle in our bodies and it does not need more training. Work on building more metachondria ;)

Def 100% with you on this.  ;)
This approach to strength training exercise comes from David a top surfski endurance athlete -

"For endurance athletes, such as kayak/surfski paddlers, strength training provides an important physical counterbalance to the repetitious movements associated with the boat and paddle. While nothing can replace sport specific training for increased performance (you have to go paddling to become a faster paddler), supplementing with some weight training will make you a stronger, more complete athlete. This will ensure that you correct imbalances in muscle groups and strengthen the areas around your joints, which is vital for injury prevention.

And of course, working out with weights helps develop raw power and explosive strength, which is hard to get in the boat alone. For kayak athletes this translates into faster accelerations and higher output during hard interval efforts Ė a welcome advantage when looking for a fast start, breaking away from a pack of racers, or sprinting to catch a wave."

"For paddlers, I believe body weight training is very effective Ė i.e. pull-ups, push-ups, sit-ups and core exercises."

http://www.atlanticpaddler.com/kayak-training/kayak-strength-training-with-dawid-mocke/
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 22, 2017, 08:50:23 PM
Touring board was the wrong term. M14, 28" Maliko, 29" Sidewinder, Bullet V1, a board like those as a single all purpose board. Surfing, around here I'll take a sup every time. I'm past the point of radical shortboarding. I've had a lot of fun even surfing raceboards.
Hi warmuth - those boards you list are really good boards for DW.  You should really like them.  They also can be used for AW touring -> but my personal pref would be the Bullet 14V2.  Not on your list - but a board that is stable and DW versatile.

Allows AW and DW use and is ok in more docile conditions.  Was out this past weekend and 2 of my DW buddies were using 14V2s while I was on my Dom.  Upwind they kept up fine -> but DW they took off in just 3kts of breeze!  Now I had paddled about 4 miles extra already in 12 kts - but still.  I could see them slip ahead on every micro bump without paddling hard.  Was very frustrating and I told them after during beers.  But it is what it was.  That 14V2 is a really nice board and a ton of peeps have them now.  Personally know like 6 guys that have the 14 and 3 the 12'6.  But really any of your choices you list should be fine for what you want.

It is a joy just paddling around for pure fun at this point.  That really is what makes SUP so appealing for us.  :)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 23, 2017, 01:51:05 AM

"For endurance athletes, such as kayak/surfski paddlers, strength training provides an important physical counterbalance to the repetitious movements associated with the boat and paddle.While nothing can replace sport specific training for increased performance (you have to go paddling to become a faster paddler), supplementing with some weight training will make you a stronger, more complete athlete. This will ensure that you correct imbalances in muscle groups and strengthen the areas around your joints, which is vital for injury prevention."


This is key for me. If health issues aren't an issue, I wouldn't even start to think about strength work to improve SUP racing unless you're doing at least 6-7 hours training a week (and even that is low in endurance athlete terms).
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 23, 2017, 05:00:21 AM
Yep no doubt Mocke says -
(you have to go paddling to become a faster paddler)

But he continues on with this tidbit which is vitally important for the crap slug average joe like me -> "supplementing with some weight training will make you a stronger, more complete athlete. This will ensure that you correct imbalances in muscle groups and strengthen the areas around your joints, which is vital for injury prevention."  This is actually 100% true in my experience.

It is clear Boothy has plenty of muscle mass -> but even then he still works hard to keep it and build on it.  That is very smart.  He also has good endurance and he needs not to lose much fat mass.  That simple combination in part allowed him a very quick and easy transition to SUP success at the top level.  He has plenty of muscle mass - has good endurance - and has low fat mass.  Plus his technique and balance learning curve really was amazingly short for a SUP noob.  Basically SB plopped him on an AS and just gave him a paddle -> and said do your thing mate.  And he has.

But def one has to actually paddle to be a faster paddler.  That is always a given.  Boothy and Mocke are at or near the top because they incorporate strength training.  If they did not -> they would not be where they are.  ;)
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: ukgm on March 23, 2017, 05:12:22 AM

Boothy and Mocke are at or near the top because they incorporate strength training.  If they did not -> they would not be where they are.  ;)

We don't know that. You can't isolate the effect of one facet of training from another. I'm not saying that's the case here but sometimes training trends can be 'in spite of' not 'because of'. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to the garage to, er, lift some steel...........
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: warmuth on March 23, 2017, 09:43:40 AM
Touring board was the wrong term. M14, 28" Maliko, 29" Sidewinder, Bullet V1, a board like those as a single all purpose board. Surfing, around here I'll take a sup every time. I'm past the point of radical shortboarding. I've had a lot of fun even surfing raceboards.
Hi warmuth - those boards you list are really good boards for DW.  You should really like them.  They also can be used for AW touring -> but my personal pref would be the Bullet 14V2.  Not on your list - but a board that is stable and DW versatile.

Allows AW and DW use and is ok in more docile conditions.  Was out this past weekend and 2 of my DW buddies were using 14V2s while I was on my Dom.  Upwind they kept up fine -> but DW they took off in just 3kts of breeze!  Now I had paddled about 4 miles extra already in 12 kts - but still.  I could see them slip ahead on every micro bump without paddling hard.  Was very frustrating and I told them after during beers.  But it is what it was.  That 14V2 is a really nice board and a ton of peeps have them now.  Personally know like 6 guys that have the 14 and 3 the 12'6.  But really any of your choices you list should be fine for what you want.

It is a joy just paddling around for pure fun at this point.  That really is what makes SUP so appealing for us.  :)

  I should probably buy a nice wide downwind board "for my wife".  She is starting to feel a bit left out these days....The one big drawback of owning only raceboards is they're useless for everybody else.
Title: Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
Post by: Eagle on March 23, 2017, 10:28:02 AM
Yep.  But you may be surprised pretty quick.  My wife can ride the Dom AW and AS23 on flat pretty easy now.  Whereas when she first started she could not stand on the Dom for more than 5 minutes at a time.  Just get your wife something a bit more stable like one of those boards -> and she should be good.  Plus you can use that yourself for DW.  I see...  Perfect.  ;)