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General Category => Random => Topic started by: tautologies on January 11, 2017, 02:26:14 PM

Title: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on January 11, 2017, 02:26:14 PM
This clown is now getting ready to take the wheel. We are all fubared.
A man who refers to himself in 3rd person and that has open conflicts with US intelligence (he calls them Nazies and sides with Russia) will be commander in chief. He denies obvious realities and facts and have the least educated and experienced cabinet in history.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/11/us/politics/trump-press-conference-transcript.html

Here is what a leading Norwegian newspaper has to say about it (on the front page):
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vg.no%2Fnyheter%2Fmeninger%2Fdonald-trump%2Fvelkommen-til-en-syk-verden%2Fa%2F23895492%2F&edit-text=

 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: freetobeme on January 11, 2017, 05:06:22 PM
Getting my popcorn ready  ;D
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on January 11, 2017, 06:30:38 PM
All the reality TV programmes might as well give up now because Trump has turned US politics into the most unbelievable reality TV show of the grandest scale possible. Barely a day goes by where there isn't something to gasp at. It's riveting. It is very difficult to know where this is heading, but something burning this bright will always have the danger of imploding or exploding. I would think that if you are a Trump supporter you'd have been delighted by his performance in that press conference. I've never seen any politician be that rude to the press before. It was breathtaking, and it will be interesting to see how the media is going to handle a Trump. At the moment he seems to be getting the better of them.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on January 11, 2017, 07:01:57 PM
Yes,  maybe some of the Trump supporters are delighted, but I wonder if all that voted for him would do it again knowing what they know now.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: southwesterly on January 11, 2017, 07:19:59 PM
I still can't stand him, his politics, attitude or arrogance, but the golden shower allegations with Russian hookers makes me salute him.

It does confirm my belief in the trickle down theory.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on January 11, 2017, 07:44:31 PM
Lately he's been talking about leaks
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on January 11, 2017, 08:27:40 PM
Great, another pissing contest on the Zone...
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: supthecreek on January 11, 2017, 09:20:44 PM
You lost.
Our turn.
Get in the back seat and strap in.... you are in for a bumpy ride.... and I can't wait  :)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: robon on January 11, 2017, 09:36:03 PM
Shut it Creek ;) Got my Vodka mixed and ready. Let the show begin.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: southwesterly on January 11, 2017, 09:41:01 PM
 Let the games begin!

 Except the movie lasts four years.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on January 11, 2017, 10:34:00 PM
Trump wins that one.

Golden-Shower-Gate

(https://media.giphy.com/media/26DOv0UKKzf2FPGKY/source.gif)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on January 11, 2017, 11:42:41 PM
You lost.
Our turn.
Get in the back seat and strap in.... you are in for a bumpy ride.... and I can't wait  :)

So you are willing to identify with Trump? Impressive in all the worst ways.
I gotta say after the insanity today I probably would be ashamed to even breathe the same air as that numpty. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: ukgm on January 12, 2017, 12:14:25 AM
You lost.
Our turn.
Get in the back seat and strap in.... you are in for a bumpy ride.... and I can't wait  :)

Being a brit, it's been fascinating to see this whole thing go down and the press we get over here may well be biased. I'm not surprised the party changed but I'm fascinated by how most voters would be willing to slot in an apparent imbecile. This may well be a literal case of someone willing to vote in any donkey provided they represent the right party. The US (as far as the media goes) are currently a complete laughing stock. Let's hope it's not a lethal one.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on January 12, 2017, 12:37:28 AM

Being a brit, it's been fascinating to see this whole thing go down and the press we get over here may well be biased. I'm not surprised the party changed but I'm fascinated by how most voters would be willing to slot in an apparent imbecile. This may well be a literal case of someone willing to vote in any donkey provided they represent the right party. The US (as far as the media goes) are currently a complete laughing stock. Let's hope it's not a lethal one.

Apparent imbecile? You have heard him talk, right? I think you can drop the apparent part :/

IMO the problem is that he is mentally sick (narcissistic personality disorder). He talks about himself in the third person. I mean in Europe there has been some experience with rulers that talked about selves in the third person, and given how the monarchies ended I am not sure if that is a good thing.

Also how on earth is the Supreme court seat not filled yet? GOP should be ashamed at how they deal with governing the US. Obstructionist douchebags.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: ninja tuna on January 12, 2017, 01:08:05 AM
You lost.
Our turn.
Get in the back seat and strap in.... you are in for a bumpy ride.... and I can't wait  :)

So you are willing to identify with Trump? Impressive in all the worst ways.
I gotta say after the insanity today I probably would be ashamed to even breathe the same air as that numpty.

we get that you don't like trumpster,

But wasn't it Obama that said a few things like

-Elections have consequences

-you lost, get over it

-don't boo, Vote!

now lets go paddle somewhere. it is a lot more relaxing.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on January 12, 2017, 01:54:45 AM
The mainstream media are now fighting back. No-one is saying that the allegations that Trump is a puppet for Russia (because of claims of historic sexual misconduct by him with prostitutes in Russia), or saying that the dossier is credible. However a BBC reporter has just said a moment ago that there are fresh claims from another (also unsubstantiated) source that there are both video and audio tapes of the events in question, and multiple instances of these events. The ex-M16 officer who compiled the original dossier has gone into hiding, and the media are reporting that he has a history of producing credible information. There have certainly been instances lately in the U.K. media of allegations of sexual wrongdoing that have turned out to be untrue, so everyone is being very cautious. However, in the past where there are claims of video or audio evidence, this has very often turned out to be true, so it is clear that this story isn't going to go away.

It seems likely that Trump supporters would have found the press briefing quite delightful, and perhaps that now there is pretty much nothing he could do anyway to put them off. As one Trump supporter interviewed said, as he shrugged his shoulders, "probably other presidents have done worse".

So Trump seems to have achieved a level beyond accountability in his supporters' minds, perhaps. In which case there really isn't much point debating the issue, I don't think.

Whatever happens with Trump's presidency, his lasting legacy might be a re-writing of the expectations of the people as regards presidential conduct.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on January 12, 2017, 02:56:20 AM
Those who saw that press conference,
2 questions to ask yourselves:

1. Where do you think USA ranks today [worldwide] in freedom of it’s press? Have an honest guess, pick a number, before peeking at the answer.
 
rsf.org/en/ranking 

2. Which direction do you think it is heading in the short term?

Things need to get worse before people react and change it for the better. I have hope this may just make people react and make it better. The YouTube independent channels are already on the rise.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: supthecreek on January 12, 2017, 07:10:27 AM
To the panic stricken:

I wonder if any of you will actually understand what Trump is doing as president.
I doubt it.

That would require curiosity.
Curiosity doesn’t happen with prejudice.

Pity.

There will be quite a lot going on.
You will never allow yourself to see clearly, for it will be contrary to your beliefs.

Well at any rate…. you will have much to scream about.
Getting back in shape is never painless. :)
 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on January 12, 2017, 07:17:07 AM
^ I'm glad someone over there knows whats going on!

I feel much better already.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on January 12, 2017, 07:40:18 AM
Personally, I don't care if he gets golden showers daily. The sexual antics of politicians is meaningless as long as it's with consenting adults, and I've never understood why we want to hold politicians (or anyone in public life) to standards of behavior that we can't meet.

I'm concerned about his cabinet choices and appointments, but I expected big changes and it looks like we're going to get them. How much they stick and how widespread they are is one of the things we'll have to wait and see. I do know that I was pretty tired of the corporate governance of a bought administration.

The likelihood of Trump being a Putin Puppet, subject to blackmail seems slim. Why would he care? What would Putin say about Trump that anyone would be shocked by? At any rate, the opportunity for that is gone. More like "only Nixon could go to China" at this point.

I despise the guy based on what I see in his public persona, I do consider him to be a classic narcissist. But I'm not joining the screamers. There's not a lot to like in DC. This shitshow has focused Americans on their government in a way that hasn't been seen in a century. It's like having a dry socket "freshened" by your dentist. You might want to strangle him while he's doing it, but it's what it takes to make it heal.

Incidentally, I just finished reading "Red Notice". If you'd like to get an idea of what Putin and the Russian Government is like, give that a read. Interesting view into hedge funds, investing in developing countries, and the corruption level that remains in Russia under Putin, who stole most of the country's infrastructure from the Oligarchs who stole it first.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: all~wet on January 12, 2017, 09:24:19 AM
Yeah.......... always seems to go that way... the titillating angle before anything with real substance.... importance. This sort of trivial obsession (... and that both candidates were so compromised- had sooo very much to hide) is what distracted/prevented any kind of substantive debate or examination in the election.

The sexual exploits of Trump- and with his background I absolutely assume there is a rather "rich" history to draw from... are the least of my concerns. (Caveat being consensual)  Where his money is, who he owes and the conflict of interest it presents/the influence this wields over his policy decisions and those of his cabinet concern me waaaay more than tabloid fodder.

When Trump went bankrupt the last time, he couldn't get a dime from US banks who had been screwed a few times too many. So.... who invested in him- who is he beholden to- who has he/his empire by the short hairs?? How much does he owe say.... Russian "bankers".... which in that country are one in the same as Putin/the Russian Gov't. (Guess our nation is going that way too it seems.) Sure would be nice to see Trump''s financial records/taxes. Coming any day I am sure.

That Trump appoints an Exxon/Mobile oil man.... with huge ties to..... Russia... to Secretary of State? To me... that's a concern. A large part of his cabinet are concerning. The newly picked Treasury Secretary, Steven Mnuchin, spent 17 years at Goldman Sachs. Trump’s top incoming White House adviser, Steve Bannon, Goldman Sachs. Anthony Scaramucci? Same.

Are these interests wielding power over our gov't anything new? Certainly not. The Dems answer to much the same. I suppose the biggest change is we have removed all pretense. Eliminated the middleman. Why pay millions to influence policy when you can find a seat in the cabinet and write it?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on January 12, 2017, 10:06:07 AM
You lost.
Our turn.
Get in the back seat and strap in.... you are in for a bumpy ride.... and I can't wait  :)

So you are willing to identify with Trump? Impressive in all the worst ways.
I gotta say after the insanity today I probably would be ashamed to even breathe the same air as that numpty.
Is this why you started this thread, as bait?
If so, it came with the wrong warning, it should have said [warning ~ the beatings will continue until the conservatives improve]
Whatever makes you feel better about losing I guess.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: raf on January 12, 2017, 10:12:48 AM
To the panic stricken:

I wonder if any of you will actually understand what Trump is doing as president.
I doubt it.

That would require curiosity.
Curiosity doesn’t happen with prejudice.

Pity.

There will be quite a lot going on.
You will never allow yourself to see clearly, for it will be contrary to your beliefs.

Well at any rate…. you will have much to scream about.
Getting back in shape is never painless. :)

There is nothing to understand.  Thats my beef with Trump....there's nothing there.  Golden showering, grabbing by the pussy, racist, sexist, narcissistic, nepotising, Big-business screw-the-little-man, white-supremacist, global-warming denying, anti-scientist fuck hole that he is, its the fact that he is dumber than a board that scares and bugs me the most.  At least we know where he stands on all the other stuff. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Admin on January 12, 2017, 10:18:16 AM
Trump has been rewarded his entire life for being a gradually escalating version of what we have today.  We should expect exactly what we have seen all along.  He is an ego driven fellow who has an unusual lack of compassion.  That is often a very individually successful combination.  Who among us could not have more (materially speaking) if we were entirely unbound from our ethics?  Of course, things fall apart quickly if too many play by those rules but most will self-govern for a variety of reasons and this leaves a viable path for men like Trump.  He started with a fortune, always has had access to absurd financing, and has never wanted for anything or needed to strive.  He is a toddler who has never been told no and we have handed him our house keys. 

Is he unintelligent?  He has a great sense for people's actual motivations and played on that masterfully during the election.  He understands that most of what people portray about themselves is false and he appealed correctly to the underlying truths.  Does he speak like a 5th grader as a tactic?  Who knows.  It is certainly part of the fog of Trump.  The world was looking straight at him all day long and most failed to see what was occurring.  There is an intelligence to that.

It is clear that he is winging it on most issues.  He has defined financial/economic leanings and understands that realm as it has applied to his own dealings and likely a bit further.  He has a poor or absent understanding of many other aspects of his new job.  That doesn't mean he will fail but rather it puts increased importance on his new hires. 

He is already a failure in terms of civility.  The racist, sexist, crassness that defined his run and continues to date is a stain.  Much like we would not want to trade places with Donald ourselves, it would be a shame to see the country become a reflection of his persona. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 12, 2017, 11:02:24 AM
It happened, it's done, how about we revisit this conversation in 3.5 years. By then we should have some indication of what kind of job he'll do. Let's remember taut that you are also the one that predicted we would see our 401k's disappear with Trump's win...now we have the DOW skirting 20,000, small business confidence at levels we haven't seen since the 80's, major announcements of companies pulling back from overseas.....doesn't sound to doom and gloom to me. But lets wait 4 years and see where we are. Pretty sure if Obama couldn't trash the country in 8 (from a right-wing point of view) Trump won't be able to in 4 and the pendulum had swung far enough to the left for this cycle.

Best thing about this is the depantsing of the major media outlets. Not sure why they are suddenly so concerned with fake news....they've had their own version for years. I'm hearing now about schools in liberal districts that are giving courses in spotting fake news....I doubt it includes lying by omission so the major outlets are safe.... ::)

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on January 12, 2017, 11:20:28 AM
The dow in skirting  2000 because  of  Trump ?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 12, 2017, 12:12:44 PM
I was pointing out that taut's prediction of a crash was wrong as I believe most of the rest of the doom and gloom stuff liberals are spouting is.....and even the financial rags are calling this the "Trump rally". I guess if you prefer you could say it's up because Obama is leaving... ;)

Why do you think small business confidence is suddenly up and some big businesses are pulling back from moving overseas? I suppose you think Trump's election has nothing to do with it?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on January 12, 2017, 12:24:47 PM
Why do they play 4 quarters of football? Just let whoever scores first win the game.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUPcheat on January 12, 2017, 12:28:04 PM
Can any President really compete with JFK's sexaholism, which likely contributed to his assassination, since he didn't consider anybody's wife or girl friend out of bounds?  And yet, the publicity engines were so effective, there are still people who regard him as some kind of saint.

I would more likely go with the theory that Trump's beholden condition is financial to criminal elements, likely Russian in origin.  The Russian mob is so intricately bound into the warp and weave of their government now, there is little to distinguish the two.

I'm delighted that Trump's election was a poke in the eye of political correctness and general, nauseating, delusional liberal blather (which I am accosted with routinely in a place like Santa Cruz), but how come with 350 million people in this country, we can't get a single decent candidate for President?

  I think Trump is a sock puppet for shadows as yet unlighted, but most candidates are.  I regard Trump more as a shallow, Barnum and Bailey opportunist who would sell out his mother on a whim rather than a true conservative.  However, I don't think the Republican Party represents classical conservatives, either, any more.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 12, 2017, 12:32:13 PM
Really? I'm the one saying lets have this play out...libs are the ones saying its the apocalypse...before the game has even started. Right wing nut jobs screamed the sky is falling when Obama was elected. Now it's the lefts turn I guess. Maybe you guys that are doing all the hand wringing before the game starts should stop and see if anyone even scores?

And again...this was in relation to a taut post in the previous thread about a crash if trump was elected...inspired by the fact that the DOW futures were off 800 points at a single point in time...election night....absolutely appropriate in response to this.

Oh...and how about answering the questions...you certainly expect answers to yours. I suppose it's easier to ignore and deflect...look you're learning from Trump already.... ;)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on January 12, 2017, 01:12:54 PM
Why do you think small business confidence is suddenly up and some big businesses are pulling back from moving overseas?

No business is or has plans to pull back from moving overseas because of Trumps threats. His threats are illegal and unenforceable.

 I suppose you think Trump's election has nothing to do with it?

 Yes they trump created an effect by planning on relieving certain investment regulations. This can allow short term gains for the large industrial investors, but is the same slippery slope that Bush created in mortgage back securities.

How did the Dow get withing striking range of 2000.   Hint, who was President for the past 8 years
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on January 12, 2017, 01:52:44 PM
Blaming mortgage backed securities for the recession is sort of like trying to pin a murder on a gun.  MBS's are just a financial tool. It was actually the subprime lending policy that fueled the housing bubble and sparked the great recession. (Sure, globalization, technology shifts etc. all played a role). 

But, the take-away from the subprime lending experiment is that not everyone is fit for home ownership.  And here is why this matters today.  I could imagine Trump stating that publicly, but for most of our other leaders, regardless of party affiliation, it just wouldn't be PC. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on January 12, 2017, 01:59:52 PM
It was actually the subprime lending policy that fueled the housing bubble and sparked the great recession.

I agree the subprime lending was instrumental and it was the relaxing of regulations on subprime lending and the relaxing on banking investments in mbs that was was a big part of creating the financial house of cards. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Subber on January 12, 2017, 02:09:39 PM
Blaming mortgage backed securities for the recession is sort of like trying to pin a murder on a gun.  MBS's are just a financial tool. It was actually the subprime lending policy that fueled the housing bubble and sparked the great recession. (Sure, globalization, technology shifts etc. all played a role). 

But, the take-away from the subprime lending experiment is that not everyone is fit for home ownership.  And here is why this matters today.  I could imagine Trump stating that publicly, but for most of our other leaders, regardless of party affiliation, it just wouldn't be PC.

For me, the big picture is that it was government policies, subsidies, government monopoly powers granted, and cronyism.
They typically create a bubble (in the process of helping some factions) and then eventually it craters of its own weight.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Zooport on January 12, 2017, 02:45:24 PM
You lost.
Our turn.
Get in the back seat and strap in.... you are in for a bumpy ride.... and I can't wait  :)

So you are willing to identify with Trump? Impressive in all the worst ways.
I gotta say after the insanity today I probably would be ashamed to even breathe the same air as that numpty.
Is this why you started this thread, as bait?
If so, it came with the wrong warning, it should have said [warning ~ the beatings will continue until the conservatives improve]
Whatever makes you feel better about losing I guess.
+1
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on January 12, 2017, 03:46:39 PM
Is this why you started this thread, as bait?
If so, it came with the wrong warning, it should have said [warning ~ the beatings will continue until the conservatives improve]
Whatever makes you feel better about losing I guess.

No sorry. It was a sigh. I don't think you need to pretend conservatives are victims here.
In regards to losing...any time this is about losing or winning we all lose. Politics is not a zero sum game.

Re the markets...I still think the long term impact on the markets will be bad..in general, markets react negatively to uncertainty, and that is definitely heightened here. Like Pono I don't care about Trumps sexlife as long as the participants are there willingly.

I do care about how he treats people. When someone who obviously ridiculed a disabled person on a national stage, who admitted to sexual offenses stands and say oh it wasn't so...it matters. I would have been at least as negative to Trump if had run as a democrat. I mean traditionally he is not even that conservative...he just doesn;t care and he certainly does not have a platform outside of himself. I think this clown will delay the potential we have for a positive change in the world.

I tend to like the dialectics between GOP and DEMS ruling alternately...I think that is part of the economic success of the US....I do not think Trump will continue this at all.

Pono: A friend of mine was part of one of the situations described in the Red Notice book. He told me some almost unbelievable stories of escape. Pretty insane stuff. I have yet to read it, but it is on my list.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on January 12, 2017, 04:35:17 PM
Oh my....

It is breathtaking, ain't it?

I actually saw a few minutes of the press conference yesterday. I also was a little surprised at how it was covered on the evening news with David Muir. I didn't see the q and a portion during the conference and I didn't click on the link about free press (rsf.org/en/ranking) (i should and I will)  but.......is that even endangered?  Good on him for not answering some reporters question just for the fact of he was from CNN.  How did the headlines go "unsubstantiated and unverified reports..........".
Geez, why wouldn't you just say....."this might be made up.....".  Golden showers? That's what it is? At least it's not having his stomach pumped or playing with gerbils or the glass coffee table trick. Yeah, who cares what two grown and consenting adults do but.......that is something that could be used against him. Who knows if it's true or not. In my mind free press is about being able to put out there anything you want. We're doing a pretty good job of that. You read any columnists? Look at any cartoons? Watch the evening news? I don't see not answering questions from a certain organization, especially in that context as anything remotely close to a danger on it.
This stuffs been around  "in certain press and Washington circles" for months? BS on that I think. More than one is too many people to keep that thing hushed, especially before an election. Get real. But anyways......

Narcissistic, arrogant, and lots else said here for sure. The pussy grabbing bothered me some as did the reporter deal Meryl spoke of. Denying he wasn't mimicking the reporter does say a lot but............let's see what happens. Flying by the seat of his pants for sure, that's been obvious for awhile. I ain't got a problem with that. Don't lots of us? Never heard him talk in the third person. I will have to pay more attention. Wouldn't surprise me. I heard a comic talking about him. Has hung out with him golfing. Said something like "he's a great guy and fun but kind of like a fourth grader. If you make fun of his shoes he's coming back at you attacking your mother."

The "fake news" stuff is kind of concerning for sure. Sure gets a tizzy going. I really doubt it hedged the election but am sure there was some out there. I see it as lazy campaigning by one side and........thought out campaigning by the other. And you can't factor in the popular vote bs either. Campaigning by both sides would have been different as someone else said earlier

I only watch network news, no cable news and have been trying to watch a bit a few times a week. I find it amazing how stuff is getting relayed.

Does anyone really give a rats ass about his taxes. As complicated as those must be I am sure he has some of the best accountants out there to pay the least he can. Wouldn't you?

Money is getting pretty easy to get again. All sorts of ways on all sorts of fronts. You notice all the offers? We going to crash again. Somehow, sometime it has to correct itself and we start over. Where are we on that clock? Someone tell me please.

We have a house of representatives and a senate. I think we going to be fine. Exciting and bumpy and interesting. Good we ain't got no career politician for a change I think. Let's see what happens. With that said I think it is a shame there is so much partisanship going on that Obama didn't feel he could bring a supreme court nominee to the table without really making his last bit in office a shit show. Not that I would necessarily agree with who he might bring but still a shame it is that way.

I thought Obama was pretty damn good the other night. Is he an amazing speaker or what? Not that I like everything he says but......

How does a Norwegian newspaper translated out seem like directions translated to English for something I got from China? I couldn't make heads nor tails of that other than all negative.


Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on January 12, 2017, 05:35:39 PM
Well there goes the ACA... https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/12/us/politics/health-care-congress-vote-a-rama.html?_r=0&referer=http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a52234/senate-obamacare-vote/
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 12, 2017, 05:36:22 PM
I admit he's a dick.....lots of folks held their noses while voting. Hillary was not only a continuation of the status quo she was an acceleration of the things most don't want. Pretty simple.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on January 12, 2017, 05:36:41 PM
Yes, the translation of the Norwegian magazine article is just a crude Google translation.  But, please don't confuse this with mainstream news, it's really more of the tabloid variety.

As far as politics being a zero sum game Tauts, that really depends upon your perspective.  An economic dispute between husband and wife is a good example of a zero sum game.  But, deciding where the tax brackets fall and which programs get funded (Uncle Sam reallocating our earnings) is not.  And certainly, foreign policy that affect trade our balance is not. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on January 12, 2017, 06:32:57 PM
Most people did't want continuation????
Then how come Hillary got 2.9 million more votes that Trump.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: southwesterly on January 12, 2017, 06:50:36 PM
One on the unintended pluses of watching a Trump news conference is that now, Paul Ryan who I’ve never agreed with, seems like a breath of fresh air.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on January 12, 2017, 07:27:43 PM
Seriously, really, seriously, the "popular vote is the only thing that matters" crap is getting old. You can get 2.9 million extra votes in New York City and not even carry the majority. Is that who represents your interests?

If that were the system we have, then Hillary would be president and the interests of anyone who lived anywhere but in a major coastal city would come somewhere after street people in Bangladesh. Think it through and get over it. That isn't the system we have, it isn't the system any functioning "democracy" has, and that isn't because everyone up until now was stupid.

Luca--I've been concerned about fake news for more than a year. Not in the context that is now diluting the concept--being a simple bullshit story--but as a real and systematic propaganda tool. Hundreds of "news organizations" appeared from nowhere, with extensive archives of news articles that made them look established--except a lot of the stuff was randomly repeated across sites--word for word. Most of them are gone now, either because Facebook and Twitter are doing a better job of weeding them out, or because their job is done, and it's best that they disappear.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Subber on January 12, 2017, 08:53:04 PM
They weren't competing to get the popular vote.

They were competing to get the electoral vote.

We really don't know who would have won if they were competing to get the popular vote
since they weren't competing for it.

We do know that Trump won the vote they were competing for.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: southwesterly on January 12, 2017, 10:20:39 PM
If I saw Kellyanne Conway glide by with her paddle facing backwards and I politely informed her, she would deny it. If I showed her photographic evidence of that fact, she would vehemently deny it. All the while with that fake condescending smile on her face.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Admin on January 13, 2017, 01:43:43 AM
For me, the big picture is that it was government policies, subsidies, government monopoly powers granted, and cronyism.

Agreed, but look at the replacement crew.  Tillerson?  Exxon Tillerson?  The oil subsidy king?  We are already picking winners and "incentifying" some at the expense of the rest of us.  We elected selfishness.  We will get selfishness.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on January 13, 2017, 02:11:10 AM
Personally, I don't care if he gets golden showers daily. The sexual antics of politicians is meaningless as long as it's with consenting adults, and I've never understood why we want to hold politicians (or anyone in public life) to standards of behavior that we can't meet.
Speak for yourself. I don't "grab women by the pussy" and I don't have sex with prostitutes. Is it too much to ask that the person holding the highest office in the land not be a sexual predator? The US seems to be almost making this a job requirement rather than an excluding characteristic. The problem with it is that it undermines the authority of the figure when he or she enforces laws that he/she breaks themselves.

I think it is one of Trump's finest tricks that now people don't care if the president is a pervert. Maybe he's raised the bar in some directions (and I only say this to assuage STC and the other "true believers" here) but he has sure lowered the bar in many other areas.

Decent, honest and articulate is NOT too much to ask for, surely?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: addapost on January 13, 2017, 03:24:57 AM
Most people did't want continuation????
Then how come Hillary got 2.9 million more votes that Trump.
haha! EXACTLY!! Most people can't count and do not understand the meanings of the words "win" and "lose". 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 13, 2017, 05:23:44 AM
For the next post maybe we should do Civics 101.... ::). The only counting that matters is 306 to 232. If Hillary had won 306 Dems would be spouting about her electoral landslide instead of whining about the popular vote.

And here I thought Bill Clinton was responsible for making perversion OK

Again...people looked the other way because they didn't want a continuation of the progressive and globalist policies that Hillary represented. I wish it someone better than Trump but I'm very glad it's not Hillary.

Go ahead...I know saying popular vote makes you feel better.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on January 13, 2017, 06:55:05 AM
I   was replying  to  your  comment  saying  most "people ", I   did  not  know  you  ment most "electors  "
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Subber on January 13, 2017, 08:54:52 AM
For me, the big picture is that it was government policies, subsidies, government monopoly powers granted, and cronyism.

Agreed, but look at the replacement crew.  Tillerson?  Exxon Tillerson?  The oil subsidy king?  We are already picking winners and "incentifying" some at the expense of the rest of us.  We elected selfishness.  We will get selfishness.

Well, we knew what Hillary was all about.  And, we are hoping Trump isn't pretty much the same thing.
- But it looks like he is filling the swamp with the same type of animals.  We'll have to see how they act.
I think it is pretty much the same thing, unfortunately.  Goldman Sachs was one of Hillary's biggest supporters.
How many G/S guys is Trump appointing.

I thought Bernie and Trump (and maybe Paul) were the best at identifying the problems the country was having.
Berine was really good at it; but Bernie's solutions sounded even worse - more and more government. 
With Trump we got no real solid answers on what he would do - just "make America great again" -
- very much like Obama's completely ambiguous "hope and change" which didn't work out very well -
- our downslide just tempered temporarily by the $10 trillion doubling of our national debt.

Now that we see who Trumps installing - I doesn't look to me like we are going to be linking responsibility
and action back together, removing government favors at all levels.  The potential for continuing corruption &
cronyism looks very high at this point - like nothing has changed versus the previous administrations.

But, we'll just have to wait and see what they do.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on January 13, 2017, 09:04:45 AM
Most people did't want continuation????
Then how come Hillary got 2.9 million more votes that Trump.
Because California was overwhelmingly in the tank for Hillary, done, next.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on January 13, 2017, 02:57:41 PM
A new book I'm reading that you really don't want to unless you can handle a bit of stress: The Dictators Handbook: Why Bad Behavior Is Always Good Politics.

Makes way too much sense in a grim, people really suck kind of way.

Trumps choices make perfect sense if he's really going to drain the swamp. Career bureaucrats are hopeless when it comes to reining in the nasty smart folks--they get bought off for lunch and someone being nice to them. Been there, watched that. If you really want to make changes you need to have the smartest guys in the room. How he would control them is an open question. They are more likely to raid the treasury than show the way to stop the general theft. But they actually do know how.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUPcheat on January 13, 2017, 06:47:28 PM
A new book I'm reading that you really don't want to unless you can handle a bit of stress: The Dictators Handbook: Why Bad Behavior Is Always Good Politics.

Makes way too much sense in a grim, people really suck kind of way.

Trumps choices make perfect sense if he's really going to drain the swamp. Career bureaucrats are hopeless when it comes to reining in the nasty smart folks--they get bought off for lunch and someone being nice to them. Been there, watched that. If you really want to make changes you need to have the smartest guys in the room. How he would control them is an open question. They are more likely to raid the treasury than show the way to stop the general theft. But they actually do know how.

That's the one I have been reading on kindle on my cell phone during idling car time.  It's pretty good, but I don't think it is really the 'explanation of everything' in politics, more like citations of typical behavior and consequences.  I think there are greater complexities that are probably beyond either optimism or cynicism.  I do enjoy the case studies.  The review of the Bell, CA situation in the beginning was excellent.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on January 13, 2017, 07:02:28 PM
I'm very concerned that our public education system will be dismantled.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on January 13, 2017, 07:45:04 PM
IS, you can't seriously be content with the current ed system.  I'd like to see considerably less admin and bureaucracy.   Asbury Park spends close to 40k per pupil per year...less than 10% of that goes to the teachers.  There must be a better way.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PT Woody on January 13, 2017, 07:49:37 PM

I think it is one of Trump's finest tricks that now people don't care if the president is a pervert. Maybe he's raised the bar in some directions (and I only say this to assuage STC and the other "true believers" here) but he has sure lowered the bar in many other areas.

Decent, honest and articulate is NOT too much to ask for, surely?

I think Trump's other great trick was convincing a large number of people that he was the only one speaking the TRUTH. He managed to redefine the term to be something along the lines of a strongly held opinion that resonates best with the bias of a particular audience. Previously, truth would have been regarded as a measured position, weighing up all the facts and being open to alternate evidence that might prove an alternate position. But we are now in a post fact world where the loudest voice is apparently the only one speaking the truth.

Interesting times.

As for the Russian Kompromat and the golden showers story, I think you are right to the extent that American has possibly elected the only human male on the continent who is incapable of embarrassment and humiliation - he simply cannot be blackmailed over something he is not ashamed of or that he thinks might cost him substantial votes.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on January 14, 2017, 06:09:44 AM
Bean, I can't answer for the Asbury Park statistics. I do know that education is not a job for amateurs, and most people who start alternative schools are not educators. You should not be educating kids with the profit motive in mind. The secretary of education candidate has no experience with public schools and seems to despise them, based on her actions. She also comes from tremendous wealth, which means she most likely has no hands-on experience dealing with disadvantaged kids or kids in poverty.

Education isn't a game where you get to experiment with pet theories about how kids should be taught. Do that on your own kids, maybe. When you come at it with an ideological mission, like our secretary-in-waiting has, you're sure to mess things up. Children need to be nurtured and helped, not treated like profit centers.

I've been teaching kids for over fifteen years, and I'm learning new things every day. My assumptions constantly get challenged. I think I'm right about something, and then I turn out to be wrong in another circumstance. (Yes, I realize that might include my opinion about the new secretary.) I'm worried that a fixation with tearing the public system apart instead of working to make it better will just hurt everybody.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Chan on January 14, 2017, 09:12:57 AM
From what I can tell based on Trump’s statements on his pending economic plans, he may be the first President in history to effectively promise and carry out a political dine and dash strategy.  For boomers, like himself, no problem.  A great meal (i.e. lower taxes, improved, infrastructure, plenty of fossil fuels pork programs, a giant wall that nobody needs and possibly even a few health care freebies for regular folk) for free.   Everything should be fine, provided he and his cronies (particularly his construction buddies who are going to have a hard time making a quick exit with the ridiculous amount of Trump Mexico wall cash in their pockets) get out the door before they get caught by the waiter (in this case the tax payers, or more precisely the future tax payers).
The national debt is so high, most people won’t even notice or care as the trillions pile up.  Trump won’t.  He thinks debt is good, provided you can stick some poor patsy with it from time to time.  The stock market and the economy are doing better than ever since Trump’s nomination.  Hmmm, the stock market and the economy were thriving during the housing credit bubble as well. 
Millennials had better get their political activism together or they are going to be stuck with a mighty big tab.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on January 15, 2017, 07:30:22 PM


Traditionally this kind of rhetoric would have GOP on the barricades. There is no greater gift for a strengthening of Putin and weak Russian democracy than Tump:

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-01-15/trump-calls-nato-obsolete-and-dismisses-eu-in-german-interview

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on January 16, 2017, 01:26:00 PM


Drain the swamp my ass: http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/16/politics/tom-price-bill-aiding-company/
"Trump's cabinet pick invested in company, then introduced a bill to help it"

This will be the most corrupt government in history.
These will just keep on coming. Like the communication advisor that was forced to withdraw after her widespread plagiarism (even for her god damn PhD dissertation!!!) were discovered.
There is just no defense for this crap.. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: mjb1959 on January 16, 2017, 01:48:03 PM
Yes,  maybe some of the Trump supporters are delighted, but I wonder if all that voted for him would do it again knowing what they know now.
pretty sure if the progressives keep moving left, he will get more votes...
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on January 16, 2017, 02:00:59 PM


Drain the swamp my ass: http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/16/politics/tom-price-bill-aiding-company/
"Trump's cabinet pick invested in company, then introduced a bill to help it"

This will be the most corrupt government in history.
These will just keep on coming. Like the communication advisor that was forced to withdraw after her widespread plagiarism (even for her god damn PhD dissertation!!!) were discovered.
There is just no defense for this crap..
The most corrupt?  Really.
For those of you on the left who are certain that the Clinton Foundation is and always has been a purely benevolent charity, that does nothing but good things for the disadvantaged all over the world, then why are they closing their doors?
 Wouldn't the results of Hillary's campaign, her loss of getting back into the White House, have no effect on the foundation?
 Shouldn't it continue to do its wonderful work?

 Maybe, just maybe it was never really that, they just did just enough to make it seem that way, when in reality it was something else, something that required Hillary to have her own server for fund raising while Sec. of State.
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Heads Are Finally Beginning To Roll At The Clinton Foundation

 Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2017/01/14/heads-are-finally-beginning-to-roll-at-the-clinton-foundation/#ixzz4VxaXoeES 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on January 16, 2017, 02:28:49 PM
Some more info on the Clinton Foundation should be coming out in the new Hillary Clinton autobiography, "In My Own Words" that Melania Trump has written.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: supthecreek on January 16, 2017, 04:00:26 PM
If Donald Trump's election bewilders you, here is a great explanation of why.

Sit back, when you have the time, and listen to Mason Weaver.

There are a LOT of great thoughts in this video..... please don't think you "get it" after 3 minutes.

The video directly addresses Congressman John Lewis's remarks about Trump....
but goes much deeper into WHY he (Mason Weaver) left the Black Panther movement and became a passionate Conservative.

I am not black.... I have never seen their struggles, but I have always felt this is exactly what is wrong with Liberal "compassionate" solutions.

Please listen to the entire video.... it is VERY important to hear and contemplate his views.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faT4RHqIML8&feature=em-subs_digest


 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on January 16, 2017, 06:17:30 PM
The most corrupt?  Really.
For those of you on the left who are certain that the Clinton Foundation is and always has been a purely benevolent charity, that does nothing but good things for the disadvantaged all over the world, then why are they closing their doors?
 Wouldn't the results of Hillary's campaign, her loss of getting back into the White House, have no effect on the foundation?
 Shouldn't it continue to do its wonderful work?

 Maybe, just maybe it was never really that, they just did just enough to make it seem that way, when in reality it was something else, something that required Hillary to have her own server for fund raising while Sec. of State.
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Heads Are Finally Beginning To Roll At The Clinton Foundation

 Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2017/01/14/heads-are-finally-beginning-to-roll-at-the-clinton-foundation/#ixzz4VxaXoeES

Why is your response to the bullshit that goes on in the Trump camp still about Clinton? She wasn't elected, and will not govern ie. cannot be the most corrupt government in US history (unless she decides to run again and she somehow manages to surpass what Trump is about to stick up the US population collective hole. 

I'll try to watch the video.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on January 16, 2017, 08:08:06 PM
I don't agree with everything MW said but he really does make some interesting points.  Nice find STC.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUP Leave on January 17, 2017, 08:56:20 AM
Interesting thread. I was just talking about the Clinton Foundation yesterday with my business partner and he said:

Funny how Trump and a lot of his cabinet picks are taking huge pay cuts to join the Fed, when the Clinton's are taking huge pay cuts to leave the Fed.

None of that means there won't be any corruptness in the new cabinet, but I feel better about Trumps cabinet than I do about the current one.

Our feelings about politics are largely based on our experiences. I have worked for the Federal government, and even as a young engineer the waste and abuse of the system was plainly, grossly, obvious. It shaped my world view regarding bureaucracies and their ability to actually get things done. Having moved out into private practice and run/owning a few small businesses I feel like I understand someone with a business background much better than a bureaucratic background.

I probably trust a business person more than a bureaucrat for the simple reason: A business person knows when they are screwing someone over, and a bureaulifer can screw someone over and be completely oblivious to it.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on January 17, 2017, 10:49:32 AM
Interesting thread. I was just talking about the Clinton Foundation yesterday with my business partner and he said:

Funny how Trump and a lot of his cabinet picks are taking huge pay cuts to join the Fed, when the Clinton's are taking huge pay cuts to leave the Fed.

[...]
I probably trust a business person more than a bureaucrat for the simple reason: A business person knows when they are screwing someone over, and a bureaulifer can screw someone over and be completely oblivious to it.

Well now you are just assuming a shit load. I am willing to bet that he is not as rich as he says he is...otherwise we'd see his taxes. So there is STILL that. Secondly, Trump stands to make a lot of money off of this. Apparently the same goes for his goonies.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_dismal_science/2017/01/how_much_will_trump_profit_from_the_presidency.html

Because you have seen waste in one organization you feel someone with no competencies is somehow better? I Mean I have worked in private and public jobs, and seen a massive amount of waste and inefficiencies in both. Maybe we should have a plumber run a multi-billion dollar tech company?

EVERY time I talk with someone who says that qualification and competencies isn't a requirement for doing a great job, will when I ask them if someone random douche off the street could do their job, they say no.

Imagine the skills and competencies required to do a great marketing campaign? Clearly someone else could learn how to do it, but any dick off the street just do a good job? Even if he had managed a set of workers before? Even if he had advisors? Nope, experience, in-depth understanding and expertise matters, in all facets. At least some basic understanding of what marketing is would be beneficial. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUP Leave on January 17, 2017, 02:53:46 PM
Interesting thread. I was just talking about the Clinton Foundation yesterday with my business partner and he said:

Funny how Trump and a lot of his cabinet picks are taking huge pay cuts to join the Fed, when the Clinton's are taking huge pay cuts to leave the Fed.

[...]
I probably trust a business person more than a bureaucrat for the simple reason: A business person knows when they are screwing someone over, and a bureaulifer can screw someone over and be completely oblivious to it.

Well now you are just assuming a shit load. I am willing to bet that he is not as rich as he says he is...otherwise we'd see his taxes. So there is STILL that. Secondly, Trump stands to make a lot of money off of this. Apparently the same goes for his goonies.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_dismal_science/2017/01/how_much_will_trump_profit_from_the_presidency.html

Because you have seen waste in one organization you feel someone with no competencies is somehow better? I Mean I have worked in private and public jobs, and seen a massive amount of waste and inefficiencies in both. Maybe we should have a plumber run a multi-billion dollar tech company?

EVERY time I talk with someone who says that qualification and competencies isn't a requirement for doing a great job, will when I ask them if someone random douche off the street could do their job, they say no.

Imagine the skills and competencies required to do a great marketing campaign? Clearly someone else could learn how to do it, but any dick off the street just do a good job? Even if he had managed a set of workers before? Even if he had advisors? Nope, experience, in-depth understanding and expertise matters, in all facets. At least some basic understanding of what marketing is would be beneficial.

Presidential salary is $400k, I'm sure Trump's taxes are most likely a confusing bunch of accounting stuff, but I would bet quite a bit that if you add it all up, its more than $400k/annum. Of course he and his cabinet stand a chance to make money after being in the WH, but I have no intention of reading a Slate article about that. That can easily be assumed.

Your words : Imagine the skills and competencies required to do a great marketing campaign? -Not sure what your point is, but some dick off the street managed to run a good enough marketing campaign to get himself elected president.

If your point is that we need experienced politicians my point is emphatically we don't. I want real-life experience in my politicians. Someone who has seen an actual profit and loss statement. IMO it is not meant to be a lifetime job, but a service to your country for a short period.

That is what the democrat party has done to itself. The old adage "dog-catcher to senator" is what is killing them. Republicans are much more open to second careers and politicians moving back and forth between private and public. Which is why they are quicker to load up new talent than the Democrats. Anytime someone from the outside tries their luck they get shot down from the old-guard.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on January 17, 2017, 03:04:18 PM
That is what the democrat party has done to itself. The old adage "dog-catcher to senator" is what is killing them. Republicans are much more open to second careers and politicians moving back and forth between private and public. Which is why they are quicker to load up new talent than the Democrats. Anytime someone from the outside tries their luck they get shot down from the old-guard.

When you look at a lot of the GOP candidates I guess it is relative in terms of quicker...I do not disagree with your main point in this.
I also do think that pretty much all lawmakers are imbeciles, but what the GOP senators are doing right now with health care is despicable. Voting to remove someone else healthcare while keep their own...oh man its hard to find fitting words. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on January 18, 2017, 11:41:25 AM
"Remove healthcare" is an interesting choice of words. Obviously you mean insurance. Obamacare certainly benefits a number of people, but it applied a huge burden to a greater number of people.  It's a political clusterfuck of epic proportions, and it will be incredibly messy to replace. That's kind of the definition of clusterfuck. So what's the choice? Just live with it?

Life is self-interest. Politics raises that to the 10th power and adds bumbling. I don't fool myself about the level of self-interest in business leaders, but there is only one path to success for politicians, there are many for business leaders.  Competence and intelligence are likely to be present in at least a few of them. That would be progress.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: surfshaver on January 18, 2017, 03:33:18 PM
Bill I have to say I agree with you, I have a bias toward competence (which comes from experience) and intelligence when it comes to elected leaders. 

Which is why the current situation is so disconcerting to me.  With the clear exception of James Mattis (who is reportedly already in conflict with other members of the Trump team), Sessions (regardless of what you think about his values), and perhaps Elaine Chao, Trump is filling up his cabinet with amateurs and lightweights -- loyalists, cronies, people who are to a greater extent (Carson) or completely (DeVos) unqualified for their roles.

Perhaps the best example is Trumps insistence on having Jared Kushner -- a 35 year old with no major accomplishment in life other than being a real estate heir like Trump who got over his skis in the one major business deal he did -- to have a formal role in the White House.  This is the kind of thing that happens in Banana Republics.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: mjb1959 on January 18, 2017, 05:00:12 PM


Perhaps the best example is Trumps insistence on having Jared Kushner -- a 35 year old with no major accomplishment in life other than being a real estate heir like Trump who got over his skis in the one major business deal he did -- to have a formal role in the White House.  This is the kind of thing that happens in Banana Republics.
[/quote]

the last 8 years in America is an example of a banana republic, this is how we end up with DJT. when you look at Obama not working hard to bring parties together to accomplish things,  see "phone & pen".
and when historians judge the last 8 years... exactly what will remain?
not the Obamacare
not any "pen and phone" decisions
so when history looks for his accomplishments... he got Bin Laden, may be all the record there is to judge...  i am thankful for that.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on January 18, 2017, 05:26:59 PM
Any elected official (or business leader) surrounds himself with cronies and sycophants. Obama certainly did. The idea that people who spent their lives in politics have some kind of expertise is a little strange. They don't do anything significant beyond the court dance of politics.

I used to really enjoy the TV show "West Wing", I considered it a reasonable approximation of the reality of political power. The remarkable thing was that the "accomplishments" of the president and his staffers was so consistently hollow. That's what I've experienced in my exposure to actual political leaders.

I'm not impressed in any way by Trump, except that he is willing to throw monkeywrenches in every direction. It will be an interesting time.  At the very least, watching the increasing insanity in the liberal press is entertaining. They really have a very light hold on reality.

Kuchner is deeply connected. He's the classic inside man. No different than Obama's choices other than the nature of the connections.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on January 18, 2017, 07:38:11 PM
I woke up at about 3:00 AM this morning thinking about the democrats in relation to some of the books I'm reading (mostly politics and history, with a little civics tossed in). I think the democrats are the victims of their own success--as translated to a foolish hubris that suggests political incompetence. They moved steadily closer to absolute inside baseball, paying attention only to party interests and the concerns/interests of the political elite inside the party.

In discarding candidates with greater popular appeal and less baggage in favor of an insider that already had promises and rewards in place for the elite, they ignored the simple fact that the US has a relatively large number of influential electors--both particularly powerful voting blocks in specific areas, and in the way the electoral college is now forced to follow the voting in specific states. Interestingly enough, this tampering with the electoral college is largely an artifact of the democratic party. Even with this gerrymandered structure, and in part because of it, Selecting a candidate that couldn't attract more than a handful of people to a rally is hard to overcome.

Having a large number of influential electors means the will of the elite doesn't come into play until after the election when the new president assembles their own particular supportive elite. No wonder they howled when they lost. If nothing else, the break from the current elite will be hard for them to mend. If the democrats want to reestablish relevance, they'll need to play the game differently. That means pitching out a lot of the old players. A lot of the old guard won't survive being out of power for however long this administration lasts.

It's a strange time in history. This same story is playing out with different flavors in a lot of places simultaneously. The Western version of the Arab Spring.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 18, 2017, 07:54:37 PM
I've felt terribly sad for my sister the last couple of months. She lost her son in a tragic accident and she has gone a little over the edge in her grief. She's almost more of what she already was...digging deeper into her core.

I can understand that behavior in response to such severe grief. I feel like I'm seeing similar over the edge behavior in liberals though and the hypocrisy is just getting annoying at this point. I've typically seen the far left and far right as equally hypocritical. The far left has gone bonkers now though.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on January 18, 2017, 08:03:09 PM
Demagogue with a clown car cabinet. Clinton totally sucks, but Trump just scares the shit out of me with his crazy. The guy is going to start ww3 tweeting from his crapper at 3 in the morning. If I was in my mid twenties I'd enjoy the chaos, but having a three year old son I'm more interested in a stable future. Also a clean and healthy environment would be great as well.
I'd be fine with a real Republican in the office, a McCain or Romney or Kasich, but Trump is like a devil in wolf's clothing that skull fucked as many sheep as possible just for laughs and is now wearing their skins around while their hearts are still beating with a necklace of eyeballs to top it all off.
I dislike/distrust Manhattanites and rich kids, and the combination thereof sticks with me even more. If he was a bring himself up by the bootstraps type of guy I'd feel better about him being a great business man who hasn't filed for bankruptcy 8 times, but seems to me he's a country club type rich kid who's probably hiding something, otherwise he wouldn't be lying about his taxes.
Hopefully I'm wrong, hopefully he'll be a great president, and stop sending stupid tweets in the wee hours of the morning, or stop stirring up sentiments of hate towards certain segments of the population, my people didn't roll off any Mayflower, and I'll assume the same about the rest of you mongrels. And I'm not paying for any fucking wall. But yeah, hopefully it's all been blurred by the press and intelligence agencies, and he'll be a great and effective leader, get the country out of debt and not screw things up too much. A year from now I'm sure we'll have a pretty good bead on which way we're headed.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 18, 2017, 10:17:11 PM
Poetic post Johnny....he scares me too. Here's to hoping we haven't thrown the baby out with the bathwater.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: outcast on January 19, 2017, 04:21:15 PM
Will there still be waves after the Portal opens, and the Swamp starts to Drain ???  (Saturday?)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: mjb1959 on January 19, 2017, 05:26:04 PM

I'd be fine with a real Republican in the office, a McCain or Romney or Kasich, but Trump is like a devil in wolf's clothing that skull fucked as many sheep as possible just for laughs and is now wearing their skins around while their hearts are still beating with a necklace of eyeballs to top it all off.

these 3 are really not republicans in spirit, Kasich is truly democrat lite..
that is why we conservatives have been frustrated and losing elections...
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUPcheat on January 19, 2017, 06:49:30 PM
It's gettin' real tomorrow!  Still some open flights to Canada.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: IRideYellow on January 19, 2017, 08:56:44 PM
Here are some of his biographers read on this nut job.  Comes down to lying, begging for attention and revenge (my TL;DR).  I just dont think he will get anything done.  That requires a bit of interest in the job of running the country and I just don't see that in him.   

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/01/trump-biographers-presidency-legitimate-214655
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUPcheat on January 19, 2017, 11:38:28 PM
Maybe it will be a good illustration of how the government manages to keep functioning IN SPITE of the President.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on January 20, 2017, 11:43:26 AM
Well apparently qclimate change is no longer a problem. https://www.whitehouse.gov/energy/climate-change
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUP Leave on January 20, 2017, 12:17:03 PM
Well I will say one thing about that inauguration address - it was wholly expected and unexpected all at once.

I mean, anyone who has watched any politics generally expects some graciousness and maybe a bit of reach across the aisle at a pristine moment like this. But we did not get that. Hell, TD took shots at every politician on the hill (his own side included). His speech was the exact same stuff he said in his campaign. Except now he has the power to do some of those things.

The speech itself has hyuuuge policy holes in it. One main point "we will give the power of DC back to you the people" okay great, that is a conservative principal, let the government be just big enough to run the country and not big enough to run my life. Perfect, however: The next main point "we are going to build railroads, bridges, freeways, interfere in trade, interfere with corporations, give everybody healthcare, get you a job" is in direct conflict with the first point. Not a conservative principle at all. That's Bernie Sanders stuff. So it was a great populist speech but not conservative. I didn't like it.

My 13 y.o. daughter attended the inaugural. She is there with a school group and they got their inauguration tickets upgraded by a Senator, so she could see things pretty well (front row of the standing people). She is getting a great experience this week, they are at the African American History Museum now, but have done a lot of things. On Wednesday she got to lay a wreath on the tomb of the unknown soldier. Today she has gotten to see some protesting, and other chicanery that has made things exciting for them. I can't wait to talk to her tonight.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: digger71 on January 20, 2017, 12:36:37 PM
In what is a snapshot of the way DJT operates, the POTUS twitter account transferred to Trump this AM.  The header image was changed to a photo of the inauguration...except it was actually Obama's 2009 inauguration.  And since it was a Getty image it was cropped just enough to eliminate the watermark.

Seems to fit the definition of propaganda pretty well, and not paying for it is quintessential Trump.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 20, 2017, 12:50:16 PM
Seriously? Some web/graphics work done by a low level staffer is propaganda created by and not paid for by Trump? You really think that is indicative of how Trump operates? He is certainly a sleazebag in many ways but pointing at something like that as a reflection on him....silly. We definitely should have elected Hillary then...her IT skills (not to mention her morals) are so much better.... ::)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: digger71 on January 20, 2017, 01:07:18 PM
Always the intern/low level staffer to blame.  Not saying DJT picked the image himself, but rather that this is indicative of the culture of his organization. And it certainly isn't the first time the Trump team has used an image in a misleading way to promote him.

And why are we talking about Hilary?  I thought she lost??
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on January 20, 2017, 01:26:20 PM
They had to use a picture lifted from a previous Obama event to make it look like there's a bigger crowd then there actually is. Low numbers according to my wife's friends on the ground in DC.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on January 20, 2017, 01:29:07 PM
I understand Trump hired his website designer after being impressed with p. 52 of the old Starboard catalog.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Quickbeam on January 20, 2017, 01:41:00 PM
I have to preface this by saying I’m Canadian, but I’m also a bit of a political junkie and tend to follow U.S. politics as well as my own. Funny thing is, on a day when you would normally think the inauguration should be what interests me, it’s not. I didn’t even look at the inauguration. Instead, I find myself looking a YouTube clips of Obama. Maybe I won’t get agreement on this, but I would think that no matter what you thought of his politics and policies, he was a pretty classy guy. Am sad to see him go.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on January 20, 2017, 02:00:12 PM
I understand Trump hired his website designer after being impressed with p. 52 of the old Starboard catalog.
Now THAT'S funny!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on January 20, 2017, 02:15:09 PM
They had to use a picture lifted from a previous Obama event to make it look like there's a bigger crowd then there actually is. Low numbers according to my wife's friends on the ground in DC.
There will probably never be a bigger crowd than the one in '08 when we elected the first black president, everybody knew that going in. 
BTW Obama's crowd in '12 was about half that size.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on January 20, 2017, 02:41:31 PM
Probably the smallest number of supporters in modern times at the Trump inauguration.

Probably the largest number of protesters.

Probably the most rioting.

Probably the most unrealistic inauguration speech ever.

It's not a great start, is it?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: supthecreek on January 20, 2017, 03:19:23 PM
Keep polling amongst yourselves.... it must make you feel better somehow  :)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on January 20, 2017, 03:58:12 PM
In Trump's favor regarding the low turnout--the bulk of his supporters aren't the Washington DC crowd, nor the types who'd travel far to see a political ceremony.  He drew large crowds elsewhere during the campaign.  It'd be hard to invent a politician more likely to draw a large DC nomination crowd than Obama, or less likely than Trump.


At the same time, the last time I read about crowds being exaggerated for an opening--in this case with photoshop instead of using photos from a different inauguration--was when the Church of Scientology opened a new facility in Portland.  I could imagine seeing Trump go the other way, and exaggerate how LOW the turnout was, and say it's because he's the Washington DC political establishment's worst nightmare.   
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on January 20, 2017, 04:44:56 PM
Seriously? Some web/graphics work done by a low level staffer is propaganda created by and not paid for by Trump? You really think that is indicative of how Trump operates? He is certainly a sleazebag in many ways but pointing at something like that as a reflection on him....silly. We definitely should have elected Hillary then...her IT skills (not to mention her morals) are so much better.... ::)


Are you saying this wad not directed by Trump?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on January 20, 2017, 05:12:10 PM
Keep polling amongst yourselves.... it must make you feel better somehow  :)
A picture is worth a thousand words...
http://wtop.com/inauguration/2017/01/trumps-inauguration-crowds-compare-photos/slide/1/
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: mjb1959 on January 20, 2017, 05:48:27 PM
Well apparently qclimate change is no longer a problem. https://www.whitehouse.gov/energy/climate-change

thank you DJT, in 20 years i will be eating steak every day.
i have many bets that as time goes on, we will find out "this climate change" will be no big deal.
just like the ice age they predicted in the 70's...
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: coldsup on January 20, 2017, 10:44:06 PM
"Most importantly we will be protected by god."

Well, going by current standards I don't think we are in safe hands. Better off calling up 007.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Admin on January 21, 2017, 02:58:45 AM
There will probably never be a bigger crowd than the one in '08 when we elected the first black president, everybody knew that going in. 
BTW Obama's crowd in '12 was about half that size.

Crowds aside, Obama left office with a 60% approval rating.  65%) say his presidency was a success.  That is remarkable considering how polarized we are now.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: supthecreek on January 21, 2017, 05:01:08 AM
Keep polling amongst yourselves.... it must make you feel better somehow  :)
A picture is worth a thousand words...
http://wtop.com/inauguration/2017/01/trumps-inauguration-crowds-compare-photos/slide/1/

and that would matter how?
but wait....no one  seemed quite so eager to compare crowds at the campaign rallies, between Hillary and Donald.
Odd  ::)

Facts that say a lot
Wikipedia on Obama's Inauguration:
"No one from the crowds at the swearing-in ceremony or parade was arrested on Inauguration Day. According to a senior federal agent associated with managing security, the fact that no arrests were made by any agency during the inaugural events was unheard of for a record crowd of nearly two million gathering in Washington, D.C

Trump Inauguration:
Washington (CNN)
"Six police officers were injured and 217 protesters arrested Friday after a morning of peaceful protests "

"Bursts of chaos erupted on 12th and K streets as black-clad "antifascist" protesters smashed storefronts and bus stops, hammered out the windows of a limousine and eventually launched rocks at a phalanx of police lined up in an eastbound crosswalk."

"Anti-Trump protests also broke out Friday in US cities, including New York, Seattle, Dallas, Chicago and Portland, Oregon. Authorities in Seattle say one person was in critical condition at a hospital with a gunshot wound"

Apparently the left is more than just sore losers.
so pompous and secure in the understanding of all things.

Actually, none of the speculation, crowd or Hitler comparisons mean anything to me at all.
Don't you get bored repeating the mantra???

I am waiting, with much interest, to see how he handles the job.... because unlike you..... I don't know the ending yet. :)
I have high expectations, but I actually have to see how he proceeds, now that he is in the chair.

It must be wonderful to know already... how do you do that?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on January 21, 2017, 05:21:53 AM
Hey STC, I'll bet you $100 this guy is a mess. If by the CCBC of 2019 things are hunky dory, I'll donate a honey to whoever you want who's running the crossing. If shit is out of hand, ie we've started a new war, our public parks are getting stripped away, or more than the usual bs scandal, you donate a bill for my CCBC.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: supthecreek on January 21, 2017, 05:47:34 AM
I don't have $100....I bet with my vote.

But anyway you can further the negativity.... go for it.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on January 21, 2017, 05:57:21 AM
I liked the earlier video Creek. He explains it in ways I can't but try at times. Others here have been able to. If nothing else......everyone should be able to take away that Sharpton is an idot.....

Polls?
I can say.......Obama kind of grew on me in that I actually think he thought he was doing what he thought was the right thing to do whether I agreed or not. Pissed me off.....the health care and how that whole thing went down, executive orders, and other things aside I think he was probably true to himself if nothing else. Lots of things I don't agree with and I don't want ideology shoved down my throat but there really doesn't seem to be any......sleeze or anything similar oozing off of him and does seem a decent guy. Perhaps I am just caught up in his charisma but I don't think that's all of it.

Disapproval ratings. Approval ratings.
Lesbian Asian men in Hispanic households of African American suburbs of white cities with some college education think....
C'mon.......
Is the "news" splitting us up more than ever? It sure seems that way.
Different car, no satellite radio last couple weeks. Lots of NPR. Holy cow.
The evening news. This article or that one.
How many endless times did I hear 40% approval last week. I also think I heard that all encompassing and true number only had 24% republicans in it. Who knows. I don't think the people out there reporting stuff took anything away from their stupid ass polls they so gleefully followed and courted up to that Tuesday last November. I still think that night was the most entertaining live television I have ever saw.

If you think this election was entertaining...........just wait.
DNC should wait a year or two before they get a strategy for 2020. I can see Trump running as an incumbent going as an independent and the GOP bringing someone else up.
Mid terms should be entertaining as well if nothing else how they get reported on. I guess that's where the entertainment factor fits in.


Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Admin on January 21, 2017, 07:09:22 AM
I don't think the people out there reporting stuff took anything away from their stupid ass polls they so gleefully followed and courted up to that Tuesday last November.

It is actually pretty funny how that was interpreted.  The average of polls http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-5952.html were only off to the actual results by 1 percent (well within the margin of error).  The polls weren't bad, people just read them as they wanted.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on January 21, 2017, 08:05:43 AM
Quote
Apparently the left is more than just sore losers.

I intended to write that this is not like losing a high school basketball game to the cross town rival, but a friend recently posted this and she better says what I want to say.

  Let me see if I can make this clear to Trump supporters: we are not sore losers, nor are we snowflakes, nor do we think that we are right and everyone else is wrong. We don't hate you, nor do we want to insult you! The truth of the matter is that we love this country, we love the progress that this country has made over the years, and we don't want to see this country destroyed! We tend to embrace facts, and the facts have shown that Donald Trump is a pretentious, vile, and unqualified baby man, who will not attend security briefings from the people who's job it is to protect us (all of us).

But he will spend hours on social media insulting Americans who disagree with him, and continually heaping praise on a brutal dictator! Understand, this man will have to work with these intelligence gathering professionals, and he has been insulting them, has even compared them to Nazi's! This places all of us in danger!

Even if you ignore the multitude of other disqualifying factors about this unhinged individual, his misogyny, his lies, his insults, narcissism, his pussy grabbing, his wanting to have sex with his own daughter, and just a plethora of other unpresidential behavior, even if you ignored all of those things, the fact that he has repeatedly insulted American citizens, including Americans who have served this country in the military, (something that he himself refused to do) yet praises a dictator, this should at least give you pause! Shouldn't it?

Please, let's not bring Hillary or president Obama into this, we get it, you hate them! let's focus on the man who'll will be charged with the safety of this country. He is at war with the people who keep us safe, he has ignored their briefings, he's insulted them, and in a few days, he will have to work with them! Please get passed your hatred for just a moment, and think about the danger this individual has place your children, your loved ones, and this nation in!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: freetobeme on January 21, 2017, 08:39:38 AM
My experience in social media and in my "circle" of friends, family and aquantinces is that Trump supporters are merely using a number of classic deflection tactics and are incredibly sensitive and quick to disregard his blatant lack of experience or planning. 

I know plenty of Trump supporters. My circle is not an echo chamber. I know nothing of triggers. Nor identities. I do not subscribe to a specific news outlet. And I am willing to be wrong, admit I don't know and change my mind/beliefs if more truthful information is presented = Im open minded.

I do not like Trump, the boy. The list of reasons is lengthy. The fact that I am extremely socially liberal and financially lean to the conservative side has nothing to do with it. He is a jerk and there is unrefutable evidence to support that. But he could be a great leader. I don't know. 

I did not watch the innauguration. Never have. Im not one for formalities.  I don't watch the news or spend much time disecting politics. But I do immerse myself in my community and try to help others especially those who are less fortunate. I will continue to gauge Trump by how my fellow American citizens act and feel. And continue to thank God for Alec Baldwin on SNL every week.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: surf4food on January 21, 2017, 09:48:51 AM
I blame Laird.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: mjb1959 on January 21, 2017, 09:52:37 AM
Quote
Apparently the left is more than just sore losers.

I intended to write that this is not like losing a high school basketball game to the cross town rival, but a friend recently posted this and she better says what I want to say.

  Let me see if I can make this clear to Trump supporters: we are not sore losers, nor are we snowflakes, nor do we think that we are right and everyone else is wrong. We don't hate you, nor do we want to insult you! The truth of the matter is that we love this country, we love the progress that this country has made over the years, and we don't want to see this country destroyed! We tend to embrace facts, and the facts have shown that Donald Trump is a pretentious, vile, and unqualified baby man, who will not attend security briefings from the people who's job it is to protect us (all of us).

But he will spend hours on social media insulting Americans who disagree with him, and continually heaping praise on a brutal dictator! Understand, this man will have to work with these intelligence gathering professionals, and he has been insulting them, has even compared them to Nazi's! This places all of us in danger!

Even if you ignore the multitude of other disqualifying factors about this unhinged individual, his misogyny, his lies, his insults, narcissism, his pussy grabbing, his wanting to have sex with his own daughter, and just a plethora of other unpresidential behavior, even if you ignored all of those things, the fact that he has repeatedly insulted American citizens, including Americans who have served this country in the military, (something that he himself refused to do) yet praises a dictator, this should at least give you pause! Shouldn't it?

Please, let's not bring Hillary or president Obama into this, we get it, you hate them! let's focus on the man who'll will be charged with the safety of this country. He is at war with the people who keep us safe, he has ignored their briefings, he's insulted them, and in a few days, he will have to work with them! Please get passed your hatred for just a moment, and think about the danger this individual has place your children, your loved ones, and this nation in!


how can you possibly say you are not a "sore loser"??? and go to the name calling in your 1st paragraph??? actions and words tell me who you are!!!

i disagreed with everything BHO has done(other than get bin laden) but bever called him anything than President!! that is the difference between me and you...
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on January 21, 2017, 11:55:02 AM
And so it begins

Quote
Interior Department officials have been ordered to shut down the organization's official Twitter accounts indefinitely after the National Park Service shared tweets comparing attendance at President Donald Trump's inauguration against former President Barack Obama's.

“All bureaus and the department have been directed by incoming administration to shut down Twitter platforms immediately until further notice,” said an email obtained by the Washington Post circulated to Park Service employees Friday.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/obama-vs-trump-inauguration-attendance-nps-233937
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on January 21, 2017, 12:27:45 PM
And so it begins
Armageddon!!!!!!!!!!  :o
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on January 21, 2017, 01:35:18 PM

Facts that say a lot...

"Anti-Trump protests also broke out Friday in US cities, including New York, Seattle, Dallas, Chicago and Portland, Oregon. Authorities in Seattle say one person was in critical condition at a hospital with a gunshot wound"

Apparently the left is more than just sore losers.
so pompous and secure in the understanding of all things.

I think it's a bit more nuanced than that, based on what I see personally.

This morning I saw my 90-something-year-old, former Midwest farm girl  neighbor getting ready to go downtown for the parade in the half-freezing torrential rain with her "boys"--the gay couple she lives with. She's hardly a "sore loser", "pompous" or anything else, and neither are "her boys" or the other people I know who are protesting--just as none of the many people I know who voted for Trump fit the dismissive descriptions we all hear about them.

I'm sure there are pompous, sore losers among the protesters, just as there are racist, redneck Trump supporters, but most on either side don't match those extreme descriptions.  They'll also be plenty of anarchists (about 1% of whom voted) rioting and causing mayhem, but again they have no more to do with the mainstream "left" as the KKK has to do with "the right". 

And I wouldn't read anything into the Seattle shooting.  First of all, anyone who's shooting is a nutcase who isn't representative of anyone but other nutcases, and certainly not of other protesters.  If a shooting during a protest wasn't an extreme thing, you wouldn't be reading about it across the country. 

And maybe he IS a nut from "the left" who was a "sore loser" plus worse.  Or, think of it this way (since we don't know all the facts--the shooting occurred at a protest at the University of Washington.  People were protesting a speech being given at Kane Hall by a Breitbart editor.  (The fact that a liberal university in a liberal city was sponsoring that speaker whose views differ from maybe 99% of students there is a huge, stereotype-breaking positive event in my mind.) The victim was among the protesters.  Maybe he was there protesting the protesters, but it's as likely (until more is known) that he was a protester from "the left" shot by someone unhappy with the protesters. 

And if it does turn out to be someone from "the right" shooting someone from "the left" it will say absolutely nothing about the vast majority of "conservatives", "Trump supporters" or any other group outside "the left" any more than his turning out to be from "the left" would say anything about other protesters.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on January 21, 2017, 02:34:08 PM

Apparently the left is more than just sore losers.
so pompous and secure in the understanding of all things.

I am waiting, with much interest, to see how he handles the job.... because unlike you..... I don't know the ending yet. :)
I have high expectations, but I actually have to see how he proceeds, now that he is in the chair.

It must be wonderful to know already... how do you do that?
That's at least a bit misleading and unfair.

If you call today's protesters "sore losers" you can pretty much say that about all kinds of protesters throughout history.  After all, people don't protest if they've won. The election definitely WAS a case of a decision being made, and people being unhappy with the outcome. But so was the decision to fight in Vietnam and initiate the draft, the decision to allow slavery, the decision to prohibit alcohol, decisions to segregate races, prohibit interracial marriage, and on and on.  I wouldn't call citizens in 1850 who were protesting the federal government's earlier, all-done-legally, decision to allow slavery "sore losers".

And of course you're right that nobody can predict the future, but at the same time, today's protesters don't have any need to predict it, nor are they claiming they can.  They're protesting things that Trump has already said he will do.  What he ultimately will do is unknown, but plenty of what he intends to do is already known, because he's told us.  There's nothing wrong with people showing they're unhappy with the things he's said he intends to do. 

Protesting is part of what's right with America, and characterizing protesters or those who support them as  "sore losers", "pompous and secure in the understanding of all things", etc. is dismissive.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: freetobeme on January 21, 2017, 03:10:33 PM
"Sore losers" is just a term Trump supporters use to minimize and belittle the very real and very legitimate concerns of those who disagree with the Trump platform. It's a childish way of deflecting your opposition. Similar to Trumps "WRONG".
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on January 21, 2017, 03:24:58 PM
I agree entirely, pdxmike and freetobeme. The people protesting Trump are not sore losers. They are very worried that Trump is going to do the US, and its citizens (and indeed the world) irreparable harm. Given what we have seen so far, this is not a possibility that can be easily dismissed. Even the most ardent Trump supporter will admit that he can on occasions be a loose cannon. STC and others here think that Trump will be a positive force. But other opinions are available, and surely they should not be shouted down? Instead, how about listening to their fears and considering what it would take to ease them? Surely any reasonable person would not want a large section of their countrymen to feel anxious and unsafe? Riots and protests are not good for anyone, and they won't be stopped by anything except dialogue. The more Trump dismisses their fears, the stronger the protest movements will get. And since he didn't win the popular vote, he doesn't have numbers on his side - nor do his supporters. So a little bit of understanding and consideration might be wise.

It's not just the US who are protesting Trump either. There was a huge protest in London, UK today. Have we ever in our history had protests in the U.K. about the inauguration of a US president? I doubt it.

Video here:

http://a.msn.com/01/en-gb/AAm5uCL?ocid=se
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on January 21, 2017, 04:16:25 PM
There was a huge protest in London, UK today. Have we ever in our history had protests in the U.K. about the inauguration of a US president? I doubt it.
There might have been another one but it probably happened weeks or months after because of the way news traveled.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: outcast on January 21, 2017, 05:09:54 PM
Well i can report...(unless it's fake), that the ocean doesn't seem to care, and served up some good ol homecooked meatloaf  today, on the first day of the Apocalypse.....
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on January 21, 2017, 05:22:26 PM
Other protests in:

Melbourne
Macau
Ghana
Bangkok
South Africa
New Zealand
Italy
Germany
Hungary
Finland
The Czech Republic
France
Mexico

It's quite extraordinary how far the anti-Trump movement is stretching across the world. Indeed, if there is any positive to come out of this, it might be that he could unite the rest of the world, albeit unfortunately in opposition to him and the new US policies he promises.

This doesn't sound like good business to me. No wonder he's just done a complete U turn and is now sucking up to the CIA like there is no tomorrow, claiming he is "1000%" in support of them, despite having spent the last few months deriding them and claiming that the CIA Director pedals fake information.

He's also wiped billions off the value of those US-based companies he's said he will punish for using overseas labour. That doesn't sound like good business either.



Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Quickbeam on January 21, 2017, 06:56:06 PM
Other protests in:

Melbourne
Macau
Ghana
Bangkok
South Africa
New Zealand
Italy
Germany
Hungary
Finland
The Czech Republic
France
Mexico

It's quite extraordinary how far the anti-Trump movement is stretching across the world. Indeed, if there is any positive to come out of this, it might be that he could unite the rest of the world, albeit unfortunately in opposition to him and the new US policies he promises.

This doesn't sound like good business to me. No wonder he's just done a complete U turn and is now sucking up to the CIA like there is no tomorrow, claiming he is "1000%" in support of them, despite having spent the last few months deriding them and claiming that the CIA Director pedals fake information.

He's also wiped billions off the value of those US-based companies he's said he will punish for using overseas labour. That doesn't sound like good business either.


Protests in Canada as well.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUPcheat on January 21, 2017, 10:48:04 PM
Wow.  Guess we should put the concerned foreign states in the electoral college, since the American President impacts so many of them, too.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: TallDude on January 21, 2017, 11:20:54 PM
Freedom doesn't come for free. Too many Americans have mistaken freedom for free. Foreigner's come to this country for free health care, free education, free everything they can get. Yet we hardworking citizens pay for everything. Some still pay for it with their lives, limbs, and mental well being. I look at the protesters and say, GET TO WORK. It's what made America strong.  Hopefully Trump will slow the bleeding deficit. Obama has run that printer long enough. Personally, I don't like Trump. I like the potential for change. Clinton's would have just kept the printer running and so everyone stays happy. We can't afford to print up another $700 billion. That was Obama's credit line. Oh ya, and he doesn't have to pay it back.     
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on January 21, 2017, 11:44:32 PM
Wow.  Guess we should put the concerned foreign states in the electoral college, since the American President impacts so many of them, too.
Yes, of course, the natural response of a US citizen to protests in other countries is likely to be "so what?". But I think there is just an acceptance these days around the world that (a) the world economy is a deck of cards, and that American protectionism is unlikely to end well for anyone; (b) having a loose cannon with the morals of a semi house-trained polecat (to borrow a phrase from the UK politician Micheal Foot) could be very dangerous for world peace; (c) as the substantial rise in hate crimes against foreigners after the Brexit vote has shown, populations take their moral cues from their leaders. So having a self-confessed sex offender popular withe the KKK elected to the most powerful position in the world raises worries that this choice by the US populace signals a return to a less kind world where the concerns of minorities and women are ignored.

The issue of Clinton is a red herring. The protesters around the world are not Clinton supporters, and they do understand the desire by the US citizens for change. Rather, what they are worried about is the solution that the US system has thrown up. You guys got to choose between two of the most unpopular candidates of all time in US history. That's nuts. The system is clearly broken if it does not produce any options that the population wants. But that does not mean that the solution is hiring a complete newbie with a total disregard for, and lack of respect for, the things that made America great in the first place. The world is worrried that you've thrown the baby out with the bath water, basically.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on January 22, 2017, 04:10:06 AM
I don't think the people out there reporting stuff took anything away from their stupid ass polls they so gleefully followed and courted up to that Tuesday last November.
It is actually pretty funny how that was interpreted.  The average of polls http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson_vs_stein-5952.html were only off to the actual results by 1 percent (well within the margin of error).  The polls weren't bad, people just read them as they wanted.
Hmmmm, 3.3 pre vs. 2.1 to end it. That is in the margin. No one should have been surprised nor thought a slam dunk based on that. Going down those numbers more seeing them broke out......Clinton seems to have far more favor in regards to Trump to make that small average (3.3) at the end. Not sure how that ends up that way. Maybe didn't look thorough enough. Doesn't really matter. Still a small number for anyone to consider something like an election a slam dunk. USA Today, Reuters, AP, ABC and others jump out as huge Clinton leads but many, many others as well. A few clicks more in and.......the little maps we kept seeing.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/2016_elections_electoral_college_map.html
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/2016_elections_electoral_college_map_no_toss_ups.html

It is all about how they are looked at for sure. Anyways......

NPR I guess has been running a segment called something like "these divided states" for months.
"we are so divided" "the country is divided....." Oh my word. How many times have we heard that every day when you turn on or look at anything.
Weren't these for the most part women's marches yesterday?  I guess even in other places around the world as well but especially here?

I think anyone with some sort of sense would see the thinking and reasoning behind that, organizing women's marches so the new president would see.....I don't know...as a whole the group wants to be heard. It doesn't take a genius to realize there is reasoning to organizing such a thing considering things said. 
How did they turn in to just plain "protests" and "protesters". What am I missing? Something seems different here than say....something like the people up in the Dakotas. Those are protesters. I guess you get a bunch of people together to march for a cause then they are protesting but something seems different with this and it seems the flames are getting fanned and fueled by all sorts of other things.

I think the real voice for what this whole thing was supposed to be organized for has been lost in the tizzy turning it into an anti Trump rant and nothing else.

Obama was polarizing, Trump even more so I would say.
We'll be fine if people will just think with their own head and not with the one we are getting told to think with.


Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: surf4food on January 22, 2017, 06:32:49 AM
A few "sore losers" of our past prez, and not the brightest bulbs in the package.  I don't in any way shape or form believe the people in these pics represented the majority of those who didn't vote for and were not fans of our previous prez, but there were no shortage of them either.  I think referring to all the protesters now as sore losers is a bit childish.  And before anyone brings up the riots, anyone with a pulse knows good and well they do not represent the majority of us liberals.  In fact, the make us cringe. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: IRideYellow on January 22, 2017, 09:13:19 AM
I ran across this from the Standard via HuffPost.  Someone is pushing alternate reality to compliment alternate facts.

"But here's the thing: None of that matters. Obama was a terrible president who shepherded the American economy through a weak-kneed recovery, increased partisan divisions, diminished America's presence abroad, abandoned our allies, and emboldened our foes. He trapped his party inside a flaming wreckage so terrible that it enabled Donald Trump to get elected president."

http://www.weeklystandard.com/trumpism-corrupts-spicer-edition/article/2006432
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on January 22, 2017, 11:20:35 AM
Wow.  Guess we should put the concerned foreign states in the electoral college, since the American President impacts so many of them, too.

My friend, take it as a compliment that people outside your nation look towards your’s as an example and a leader.

Worry when nations such as China appear on a moral higher ground  than yours when it comes to caring for a planet which we all share. Who would have thought that a year ago? Helloooo. Wake up. We thought you guys were the good guys.

"China warns Trump against abandoning climate change deal"
   http://tinyurl.com/haghdc6
[edit to add] sorry, if link doesn't work try google the text and you'll get to a readable link.

We like you in the lead. Leading with science. Facts. You know, smart educated stuff based in reality.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on January 22, 2017, 12:58:23 PM
So, Trump and his team pick another pointless fight with the media. I'm aware that in the US you get different media coverage than we do so this is what we are hearing:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38707722

Wow, this guy is very thin-skinned indeed. It's a gift for anyone who wants to make a name for themselves and up their web traffic. Expect the mainstream media now to go into full "wind him up to generate column inches and thereby make our jobs easier" mode. The British press in particular are notorious the world over for this kind of stuff. If Trump has even a mouse skeleton in his cupboard they'll find it and torment him night and day with it. I also expect the gap between what people inside and outside the US hear and see will start to grow even further. My US work colleagues are always surprised at how big the gap is already. Your mainstream media is much more controlled than ours.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: mjb1959 on January 22, 2017, 01:18:49 PM
I ran across this from the Standard via HuffPost.  Someone is pushing alternate reality to compliment alternate facts.

"But here's the thing: None of that matters. Obama was a terrible president who shepherded the American economy through a weak-kneed recovery, increased partisan divisions, diminished America's presence abroad, abandoned our allies, and emboldened our foes. He trapped his party inside a flaming wreckage so terrible that it enabled Donald Trump to get elected president."

http://www.weeklystandard.com/trumpism-corrupts-spicer-edition/article/2006432

what in that paragraph is untrue?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on January 22, 2017, 01:59:09 PM
I guess that the emphasis is wrong. Obama isn't the reason for Trump. Trump is a symptom of a political system where you have to have squillions of dollars behind you before you can get anywhere near elected office, and (related to this) Hillary Clinton. Clinton gifted the presidency to Trump, not Obama.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on January 22, 2017, 07:16:04 PM
Perhaps I'm taking you out of context A10.  But, in the event that you are being serious, please rest assured personal wealth is not a prerequisite in US politics.  There are just too many good examples to the contrary for that to be even remotely correct.  And, HC certainly did not gift the office to DT. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Quickbeam on January 22, 2017, 07:45:50 PM
And, HC certainly did not gift the office to DT.

Correct, it was the FBI that did that.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 22, 2017, 07:52:14 PM
George Bush begat Obama, Obama and globalism begat Trump
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 22, 2017, 08:20:04 PM
Seriously? Some web/graphics work done by a low level staffer is propaganda created by and not paid for by Trump? You really think that is indicative of how Trump operates? He is certainly a sleazebag in many ways but pointing at something like that as a reflection on him....silly. We definitely should have elected Hillary then...her IT skills (not to mention her morals) are so much better.... ::)


Are you saying this wad not directed by Trump?


You're saying it was? I'm not saying it doesn't match his style just that I highly doubt the Donald was personally picking photos. As for why Hillary is relevant to this conversation....you guys were willing to vote for her, give her a pass for email....like she knew nothing....but now Donald is directing web design on the night of his inauguration. You guys act as if Hillary wouldn't have had her own version of these kind of tactics. The only difference is that you wouldn't have had every major media pouring over everything and exposing every little detail they can in hopes of embarrassing the new president. You never would have seen it.

I have no problem with the protests.There is much to worry about with Trump as president. The comparison of elections and the response doesn't work. Protests are a progressive thing...pretty sure the folks at the Boston Tea Party were seen in much the same light by King George. The more rare conservative protester is usually further out on the fringe. There's simply not as many of them and people simply don't become  as impassioned about conservative causes.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on January 22, 2017, 08:43:06 PM

Stone, your willingness to excuse pretty much anything Trump does with anything Clinton is very odd.

How do you react when you see Spicer's actions?
http://www.press.org/news-multimedia/president/2017/01/npc-statement-potus-and-spicer-comments-towards-journalists

First say no one can estimate to then go on and conclude that is was the most attended ever?? Trump's attitude and threats towards the press is extremely worrisome.

Anyways...turns out Trump speech at the CIA was cheered on by his staff and not CIA.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-cia-meeting-full-support-condemns-media-isis-a7539766.html

We are in for a lot of lies and deceit. Believe me that I would be at least as critical towards Clinton if this was her attitude and actions.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Admin on January 23, 2017, 02:12:45 AM
Rick Perry.  Hot damn.  Can I protest that?  Shit, yes.  I'm in Portland.  If I get a band and a beer tent it could be worth a street closure.

This is a F#$# You cabinet.  It is a Billionaire favorfest.  17 people with more combined wealth than a third of Americans.  Surprise, surprise.  Bring back Brownie!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 23, 2017, 06:56:42 AM
I'm not excusing anything Trump does. I think the guy is a dick. I'm simply laughing at the hypocrisy you guys are displaying. Pointing at corruption in Trump while ignoring it in Clinton. You say why is Hillary being brought up....because you all voted for the corrupt liar...now you're complaining that Trump is a corrupt liar? I can support Trump in one regard...blow away the status quo in Washington...a from the ashes rose the phoenix kind of strategy. Much of what Trump represents I don't care for...but I have a couple overriding issues where we do align. Enforce our current immigration laws and rewrite them so they are practical and logical, we need a compromise solution that is good for US business and citizens. I also want to slow the roll of globalization. I don't know that I'm really going to get those from him but I do know it was going to get worse under Clinton.

I don't think Trump will be re-elected unless his policies bring about a "Huge...it's going to be Huge" improvement to the lives of average Americans. If they don't see change the guillotines will come out again. My best scenario...he fixes our immigration mess and helps slow the bleeding of globalization in his first term...then he gets booted 4 years from now and the country elects someone who is moderate and rational and we stop the partisan power politics bullshit. Much of what we see is pumped up to create the divide...the more divided the more impassioned, the more impassioned the more you will ignore the arguments of the other side regardless of how rational they might be. I don't hold out much hope though...too much invested by both sides in keeping divisions in place and because the press makes money on controversy I don't think we'll see those echo chambers changing anytime soon.

You guys are also bothered by his attitude towards the press? The press deserves his disdain. If they are so concerned about how they are treated maybe they should stick to news and facts and not try to spin everything to fit their ideology and generate clicks amongst their faithful. The press deserves a slap for how they've been operating...but of course they are doubling down. If they stop spinning things to the left (or right in the case of Fox) they'll lose what viewership they have. You point to the NPC website like it means something..."The National Press Club welcomes a healthy discussion and debate on the stories of the day. However, it's absurd and unacceptable to insult and impugn the motives of credentialed journalists for accurate reporting"   what a fucking joke....start reporting accurately and that statement means something, otherwise..STFU.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on January 23, 2017, 09:40:16 AM
And there goes NATO...
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/193
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 23, 2017, 10:13:25 AM
And there goes NATO...
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/193

United Nations actually....and I doubt this will be anything but a tool to bring pressure on the UN...which I'm not against.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on January 23, 2017, 10:13:50 AM
It's scary how closely Trump fits the profile of a typical demagogue:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogue
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: surfafrica on January 23, 2017, 11:11:56 AM
Not sure why everyone is so worked up. "Alternative facts" are waaaay more fun than fact facts. Wheeeee! #overheadforsure #sopitted #fishwasthisbig #earthisflat #notdrunkalternativesober #lukeiamnotyourfather #potatopotatto

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on January 23, 2017, 12:51:32 PM
It's scary how closely Trump fits the profile of a typical demagogue:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogue

Nah, in order for Trump to be a true demagogue, we'd all have to be, you know, ignorant and stuff...
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on January 23, 2017, 01:59:38 PM
And there goes NATO...
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/193

Saber-rattling...not for the faint of heart.

My standard reply to this type of behavior in the past would have been, here come the threats of US bond redemptions (from the international community).   But Trump has already put the world (international bond holders) on notice, he will default as needed. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on January 23, 2017, 03:56:19 PM
On all of this stuff, I have to say, so far, right on. NAFTA is stupid. Worse than stupid--WTF is there in NAFTA that benefits the US? I think Bob is totally out to lunch on immigration, but I do believe it should be orderly. Pretty funny seeing how no one can get anything done in SoCal these days because the Mexican economy is pretty good. Instead of fifty guys standing around outside the gates of Fairbanks Ranch, there's five, and they don't look so good. Most of the stories I read in the media about immigration are stupid beyond belief. Bleeding heart stuff.

Really? Talk about tone deaf.

I also think Trump is a Dick, but dissing the intelligence community? Really. Who the fuck cares. If you've ever spent time with a federal organization you know in any meeting there are ten guys vying for the top spot, twenty guys kissing the asses of the of the ten, and four people doing the work. the four people do the work because it needs to be done. The rest are just bullshit. Showoffs, suits, and a couple of people you'd have a beer with. If you don't know that, then your experience is lacking and your opinion isn't worth spit.

DC is like France in the reign of the Sun King. A bunch of powdered, privileged, do-nothing schmucks surrounded by supplicants, with a new king who understands that there's no way he can gain their loyalty. Even if Trump is a total schmuck, the only way he can function is to co-opt them. Not just government, but the media lining up to give them blowjobs, and three layers of useless before you get to people who actually give a shit about the job.

Yeah, it needs a grenade, but it's going to be messy. And yeah, I had to really hold my nose to vote for Hillary. I understood that she would do nothing to change what needed to change. Obama lied about hope and change. With Trump I'm afraid he didn't lie.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on January 24, 2017, 04:51:28 AM
The Netherlands welcomes Trump in his own words
https://youtu.be/ELD2AwFN9Nc
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on January 24, 2017, 06:11:47 AM
And, clearly these happy Hollanders support Trump ;D

My point is simply that there are extreme views wherever we travel...
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on January 24, 2017, 07:57:43 AM
The Netherlands welcomes Trump in his own words

That was great, it's true. Fantastic. I loved it. It's true.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUP Leave on January 24, 2017, 08:29:12 AM
Great posts ^3 above.

Ponobill is right on about a bureaucratic meeting.

It was apparent on day 1. Trump is not going to change. He is going to just keep rolling grenades at the establishment every chance he gets. Sure, some are going to roll back to him before they explode, but he is just going to pretend it didn't happen. He is also going to remain an easily offended NY Democrat. He signed some easy stuff to make his party/base happy, but I got a feeling the right is going to be scratching their head over this guy real soon.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: mrbig on January 24, 2017, 09:12:44 AM
Yugi, Loved that vid!

Keystone Kops Alert.

Buy bituminous now before the price increase.

Cough cough cough!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SlatchJim on January 24, 2017, 09:53:30 AM
Yugi, that vid was hilarious, and I sent a copy to my immediate family for their amusement.
While I'd consider myself pretty conservative, I have friends that wouldn't find anything funny about it, so their loss  ;) and they don't get to see it.

My politics are summed up as: I don't believe the left, don't trust the right, and have no faith in my own ability to do the job any better.  :-X  In my job, you get to see first hand how so many government positions are held by people who's only qualification is that they fear losing their job and being totally unqualified to do anything productive in the private sector.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on January 24, 2017, 10:08:07 AM
The Netherlands are the most overrated county ever, totally all talk and no action, believe me, I know, that's why they are full of crime and poverty.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on January 24, 2017, 12:54:51 PM
The Netherlands are the most overrated county ever, totally all talk and no action, believe me, I know, that's why they are full of crime and poverty.
Yes, it's about as low as a country can go.  The only place lower is the Netherworld.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on January 24, 2017, 02:43:42 PM
In my job, you get to see first hand how so many government positions are held by people who's only qualification is that they fear losing their job and being totally unqualified to do anything productive in the private sector.

Not that I don't believe you...but do you feel this is very different in private enterprise, though?

I think this comes down the corporate culture, and certainly, you have companies where politics in the company is crippling to the company too. I have met both sides of this coin...government workers that are absolutely committed to and really good at their job.

In general private enterprise people are maybe more efficient, but they are also usually paid a lot better too.
 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on January 24, 2017, 02:54:43 PM


If you care about nothing else...you have to care about the environment: http://www.businessinsider.com/epa-freeze-trump-2017-1?r=UK&IR=T

Trump is fulfilling his promise to screw over the planet. This is a man who claims that climate change is a conspiracy perpetrated by China to hurt US businesses...

WTF!!!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on January 24, 2017, 03:37:37 PM
^ On this folks outside the USA also have a dog in this race.
Our planet is a common cause. Simply crazy in this day and age to disrespect the environment.

Ajit Pai as FCC chairman? Net neutrality is a fundamental piece of the open Internet. The US was a guardian of the open Internet. If that goes what happens next?

Backing Israel’s occupation of Palestinian territories is not going to ease tension in the Middle East. It inflames tensions. That much is clear.

Not good.

China, BTW, is taking the moral higher ground on climate change. They also stand to gain in trade and in regional power with the collapse of the TPP deal.

It’s definitely pretty crazy. Typical short term thinking. Not quite sure how this will all work out. Risky gambles.


PS. The man wears pathetically ill fitting suits. It's spooky. I presumed it's to hide how fat he is but WTF is up with Pence and Spicer? They also just have a complete lack of taste or they feel a need to dress like the bully boss?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on January 24, 2017, 04:59:55 PM


Yup, pulling out of the TPP is the biggest gift Trump could give to China..one I am sure they will receive with open arms.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on January 24, 2017, 05:37:54 PM

On the Net Neutrality issue, I have more than one thing to say. Removing net neutrality is shifting the bargaining power from innovation and upstarts to large telecoms. I am not convinced that it will break the Internet, but I do think it will break the Internet as is stands. I think there is some risk that it will split up, not necessarily due to netneutrality, but due to other things Trump has said.

Right now the US has a safe harbor standing with the EU...I doubt it will stay that way, which makes it more expensive to produce and offer transatlantic services. It makes no sense, like a lot of the shit Trump is doing. The worst part is that we have been through this before. Power to your house? Imagine if the electrical company decided what you could use the power for? Or the mistakes that were done with telecoms when phones were introduced.

I can't even believe the GOP is willing to go along with it. Taking away net neutrality is anti-competitive. The policy-makers lack of technological insight is disturbing.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on January 24, 2017, 06:20:32 PM
In my job, you get to see first hand how so many government positions are held by people who's only qualification is that they fear losing their job and being totally unqualified to do anything productive in the private sector.

Not that I don't believe you...but do you feel this is very different in private enterprise, though?

Night and day. the only companies I've experienced with the level of bullshit found in government is regulated monopolies like utilities. Other than that, there is generally some level of competence required beyond navigating the bureacracy and survival. Of course there are people in government who work hard who are good at their jobs. That would be the four out of thirty I referred to. Could be more than that in some agencies but simply consider this--the top level of bureaucracy is appointed as political party favors. Where do you find that in the corporate world. Of course there is politics in business.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on January 24, 2017, 07:54:31 PM


Yeah I get that. I am not sure if that is due to the bargaining power of unions..because it seems to me that even private companies that are in industries that are heavily influenced by unions seems to have a slightly slower pace. Now I am not against unions by default, but there has to be a balance.

Now I am definitely not saying the governments should be running companies, because I also do not think that corporate minded people should be running government. It isn't a business in the same sense, and I am worried that the US will feel the brunt of that...

Well let me modify that...great leaders / managers /  visionaries with a lot of knowledge, a bit of humility, and deep empathy that can attract great people I am sure can succeed in almost any job, but that is obviously not the case with Trump. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on January 25, 2017, 04:50:45 AM
is this for real!?
   www.theguardian.com/media/2017/jan/24/journalists-charged-felonies-trump-inauguration-unrest
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on January 25, 2017, 06:30:23 AM
is this for real!?
   www.theguardian.com/media/2017/jan/24/journalists-charged-felonies-trump-inauguration-unrest
Not sure, but this seems pretty real, has been on several different sources.

http://fortune.com/2017/01/24/trump-gag-order/?xid=soc_socialflow_facebook_FORTUNE
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: raf on January 25, 2017, 07:01:00 AM
How long before folks who voted for Trump start feeling like they made a mistake?  Any yet?  1 month from now?  Thats the silver lining, if there is one.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 25, 2017, 07:09:43 AM
They grabbed a bunch of people that were smashing stuff. These folks were in the crowd. How about we wait and see how it pans out before getting too outraged? From the photos some look like any other protester that has outfitted themselves with helmets and goggles and is pointing their cellphone. I find it interesting how some of these folks self label as "freelance journalist and activist"...tell me...exactly how do you write a story without bias when you're an activist? According to NPR this morning the job of journalists is to bring the facts forward without bias. 

Mistake? He's doing what he said he would do. I don't like some of what he's doing.....still very happy Clinton isn't president. I do think there is a good chance he'll go too far. Like I said above, unless he makes significant improvements he's gone in 4 years.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on January 25, 2017, 08:12:33 AM
How long before folks who voted for Trump start feeling like they made a mistake?  Any yet?  1 month from now?  Thats the silver lining, if there is one.

You do recall that pretty much everyone but the skinny bit of hardcore on both ends of the spectrum considered the choices they had were to toss their vote away, vote for the status quo with someone they considered a greedy evil liar, of something different with someone they considered a greedy, evil liar.

Where's the mistake? The hardcore on both ends are getting exactly what they expected, and so are the people in the middle.

The regret I expect is within the Republican party.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: surfafrica on January 25, 2017, 12:43:41 PM
What they were really saying on inauguration day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gneBUA39mnI
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on January 25, 2017, 01:49:29 PM
They grabbed a bunch of people that were smashing stuff. These folks were in the crowd. How about we wait and see how it pans out before getting too outraged? From the photos some look like any other protester that has outfitted themselves with helmets and goggles and is pointing their cellphone. I find it interesting how some of these folks self label as "freelance journalist and activist"...tell me...exactly how do you write a story without bias when you're an activist? According to NPR this morning the job of journalists is to bring the facts forward without bias. 

Mistake? He's doing what he said he would do. I don't like some of what he's doing.....still very happy Clinton isn't president. I do think there is a good chance he'll go too far. Like I said above, unless he makes significant improvements he's gone in 4 years.
Keep drinking the Kool-Aid. If you drink enough it might drown out that little voice of reason that's starting to whisper in your ear.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 25, 2017, 02:16:55 PM
Please....I've always had concerns about Trump as president....just not as many as I had with Clinton. You can dismiss the concerns or opinions of others as Kool-Aid though if that makes you happy. The easy dismissal of the right by the left and vice versa is why we are where we are. The problem we have is that the extremes on both sides act like spoiled children....if I can't have it all my way I'm taking my ball and going home. The Kool-Aid drinkers exist on both sides. The rest of us are stuck with the resulting bullshit of extreme partisanship.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: raf on January 25, 2017, 02:24:25 PM
How long before folks who voted for Trump start feeling like they made a mistake?  Any yet?  1 month from now?  Thats the silver lining, if there is one.

You do recall that pretty much everyone but the skinny bit of hardcore on both ends of the spectrum considered the choices they had were to toss their vote away, vote for the status quo with someone they considered a greedy evil liar, of something different with someone they considered a greedy, evil liar.

Where's the mistake? The hardcore on both ends are getting exactly what they expected, and so are the people in the middle.

The regret I expect is within the Republican party.

Thats a good point and I agree.  I suspect that if we revoted in a months time, the outcome would be different.  That's what I meant by a mistake.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on January 25, 2017, 02:52:27 PM
They grabbed a bunch of people that were smashing stuff. These folks were in the crowd. How about we wait and see how it pans out before getting too outraged? From the photos some look like any other protester that has outfitted themselves with helmets and goggles and is pointing their cellphone. I find it interesting how some of these folks self label as "freelance journalist and activist"...tell me...exactly how do you write a story without bias when you're an activist? According to NPR this morning the job of journalists is to bring the facts forward without bias. 

Mistake? He's doing what he said he would do. I don't like some of what he's doing.....still very happy Clinton isn't president. I do think there is a good chance he'll go too far. Like I said above, unless he makes significant improvements he's gone in 4 years.
Keep drinking the Kool-Aid. If you drink enough it might drown out that little voice of reason that's starting to whisper in your ear.
Ok, First.....I am starting to wonder what is going on as well, how can you not. I am not a big fan of executive orders on either side, that's not really how we are supposed to do things if I remember correct but I got some brushing up to do but it's not even a week yet. Here is what I think so far about a couple things posted here.........which doesn't matter and I like to think I know it doesn't matter.

In the end I think you are drinking the koolaid because it seems the instant anything comes out you are jumping right out there going with the headline that lured you in without bothering to check the context or wait even a few. It's ok, and it doesn't matter....it's all good and I like seeing what everyone says, but it doesn't matter either.

The media guys. Charged with felonies or something like that. I like to think we would all be (here at this place, Americans in general, you guys over there, left, right, blah, blah) seriously pissed off about that and that just wouldn't fly. Something is going on with that other than real reporters being shown the door, arrested for trying to report and not allowed to report , however we want to define what a reporter is. 

Buried in the article.   
www.theguardian.com/media/2017/jan/24/journalists-charged-felonies-trump-inauguration-unrest
"In all, more than 200 people were arrested on Friday, after property was vandalized in the US capital in the hours around Trump’s swearing-in as president. Police said that six officers suffered minor injuries."

Haven't reporters been in with these kinds of protests or crowds as long as we can remember, getting arrested and even partaking and this is not some new thing of some evil empire swooshing down and taking the rights of the press away? That ssure has disappeared as a story. The media would not let that disappear, and they shouldn't, if that really had some basis of something to worry about.

On the media squash thing.....
http://fortune.com/2017/01/24/trump-gag-order/?xid=soc_socialflow_facebook_FORTUNE
I scanned that article and didn't see it, maybe it's there but somewhere else I read about it and a time or few I have heard it reported it always seems to end with something like..."all administrations have done this, this is nothing new....." Yes, Obama included. Make sure it is following their rhetoric...whoever the prez is or has been. Was Twitter even really going 4 years ago? I know 8 years ago it wasn't and I think facebook was really just a blip then?? All new kinds of media happening now. 8 years ago, 16, and 24 (holy shit, that long for Billy boy) there wasn't all this kind of media. Let's see what happens.

Look at the whole thing and not just the stupid headlines. Don't look at one news source. That glass coffee table or gerbil stuff they got on him sure has seemed to disappear. Maybe it's true but I still don't think there is any way in hell that could have been kept under wraps during an election cycle. No way. I thought James Bond was going to come out with some dirt "in the following days".?

Not really trying to defend Trump or what he is doing but be real. The sky might be falling, I don't know but make sure it is first.

Hang on tight..........we in for an exciting ride. Not sure I like it all that's for sure.......

Let's see what's happening around Memorial Day.

 oh yeah......lip reading, Netherlands...other stuff....all good stuff. Demagogue. Got me thinking.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on January 25, 2017, 02:56:20 PM
It's interesting that during his campaign Trump chose to say that his support was "Brexit +++" because his presidency is so far starting to play out just like the Brexit vote has been in the UK: If we had the Brexit vote again, no way in hell would the decision go the same way now that we've had a peek at the reality of the decision and had a chance to see how it's gonna play out. Many people thought that "things can't get any worse" so voted for a change. Now they've discovered that things could in fact get worse, and the nation is now hugely divided, and the poor (who voted Exit) are getting poorer, and are hit the hardest. We've got no effective opposition who can champion their needs, and an unelected prime minister who is pursuing a course she never supported and knows will cause incredible financial hardship, but has decided that being in power is more important to her than doing what she believes in. The biggest casualty has been democracy, and I suspect it will be for you too. None of us have got anyone we want to vote for. In trying to overthrow the corrupt elite we have just destroyed any semblance of influence we once had.

There are definite parallels. Where is your opposition party? Where are the checks and balances? From outside the US it looks as if Trump is about to steal the family silver,  and the political system is just standing by, with no idea what to do.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 25, 2017, 06:53:42 PM
As Luca said...most of what's happening here is standard stuff when the administration changes party. All the bullshit outrage about the changes in the whitehouse website, telling departments to freeze outside communication...all standard procedure for incoming admin to get all members of the team to get on the new message. But every report you hear in the majority of the media makes it sound like the brownshirts are just outside the door. I'm a bit disturbed by the press thing but it's being blown way out of proportion. We have no idea what actually went down and sorry but a guy with a helmet and a cellphone doesn't scream press to me and obviously not to the cops either. And do you really think the cops were out there doing Trumps bidding? Are the DC cops the SS or some similar stupid analogy the liberal media will use? Every change of government sees the old swept out and the new brought in. Where was all this outrage when Obama did it? There are a few people drinking kool-aid here but I gave that shit up long ago. Try getting some of your news from outside of liberal sources. Without balancing the bullshit from each side any opinion we form is weak.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on January 25, 2017, 07:12:10 PM
The media thing is ridiculous. Any wanker with a blog gets to scream about his rights these days. There is NO indication that any form of suppression came from the feds--in any branch. Just standard law and order, and some folks trying to wiggle out.

The Kool-Aid part is that we have media reporting that with skew context. Currently, media requires "belief" meaning some sort of faith based on your preconceived notions. With all the noise, there isn't an alternative.

A10, you're being silly.

I'm not saying I like what this administration is doing, but most of the actual actions--meaning the stuff the administration is actually doing, not the bullshit that media is reporting--is straightforward and directly in line with what Trump said he was going to do. I've actually never seen an American president do that. It's pretty weird--and nerve-wracking.

The crap the media is focused on is insane. Size of the inauguration crowd? What? The Atlantic does some totally sleazy stuff by timing the photos, then admits it, then defends it, then all the media pick up the shitstorms. Really?? What is this? And who cares. How is this news?

The New York Times and Wall Street Journal smell blood in the water and are trying to sell their papers as the honest source for news--spamming everyone with offers. Right now the entire fifth estate has the credibility of the National Enquirer. Any day now the Washington Post is going to claim that Trump is Bat Boy.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: digger71 on January 25, 2017, 09:18:44 PM
The crap the media is focused on is insane. Size of the inauguration crowd? What? The Atlantic does some totally sleazy stuff by timing the photos, then admits it, then defends it, then all the media pick up the shitstorms. Really?? What is this? And who cares. How is this news?

What did the Atlantic do that was sleazy?  I can't seem to find anything regarding that and they seem to be sticking to their "Photographic Fact Check" that shows the actual time Trump was speaking.
https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2017/01/all-of-this-space-was-full-a-photographic-fact-check/514253/#disqus_thread

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on January 25, 2017, 09:37:40 PM
Did you miss the "how is this news" part?

This is the problem. Focusing on nonsense.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: digger71 on January 25, 2017, 09:48:45 PM
My question wasn't meant to be anything but that.  You said the Atlantic did some sleazy stuff with the timing of photos and I wanted to know what that sleazy stuff was. 

The news I was interested in was about the 159 yr old mag's reporting tactics.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on January 25, 2017, 10:39:27 PM
We're in the third cycle of reporting on an issue at least as important as Kim Kardashian's butt.  In the beginning of cycle 2 the Atlantic said the crowd shot of Trump's inauguration was taken early in the day. Later they said it was during Trump's speech. Who knows, and more importantly, who cares.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Quickbeam on January 25, 2017, 10:58:42 PM
Looks to me like it's Trump who cares, and that in itself is one of the problems.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on January 25, 2017, 11:51:23 PM
Looks to me like it's Trump who cares, and that in itself is one of the problems.

You know you are in for a ride when Richard W. Painter, Bush's ethics advisor is suing you.
Fact is that Trump has no divested...the nonsensical empty folder stunt on stage is meaningless as long as we do not see the tax returns. 

With all the other shit Trump is doing, there is simply no way this is not blowing up.
As much as I dislike Pence at least he will focus on only screwing up the US with his religious dogma.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Admin on January 26, 2017, 07:16:08 AM
We're in the third cycle of reporting on an issue at least as important as Kim Kardashian's butt.  In the beginning of cycle 2 the Atlantic said the crowd shot of Trump's inauguration was taken early in the day. Later they said it was during Trump's speech. Who knows, and more importantly, who cares.

Look at the grouse.  It is astounding that a 3rd grade diversion is so successful.  Russian hacking swayed the Electoral (actual) election in my favor?  I don't like that news cycle.  Insert inane attention grabber.  Vladimir who? 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on January 26, 2017, 09:27:39 AM
So now Trump is advocating the use of torture.

https://youtu.be/Mf_CSvjaKcs

Waterboarding is illegal under domestic and international law.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/waterboarding

ISIS recruiters must be rubbing their hands with glee. All they need to do is put up a picture of Trump and young men will come flooding in with plans to attack the US.

God bless America indeed. Save our Christian faith: waterboarding is what Jesus would do. Isn't it??
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on January 26, 2017, 09:57:45 AM
"ISIS recruiters must be rubbing their hands with glee. All they need to do is put up a picture of Trump and young men will come flooding in with plans to attack the US."

ISIS has never needed a reason like that, or keeping Gitmo open, for them to want to kill all us infidels.  Just us being alive, getting up in the morning, having coffee with maybe even a little bacon is reason enough.  In fact you could eliminate the bacon and they would still want to kill us all.  Don't be foolish.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on January 26, 2017, 10:34:17 AM
^ No Weasel, they didn't pop out of nowhere. And it certainly has little [real] to do with religion. In fact it's largely muslims who have been victims.

A10 is right. Just perfect propaganda for badguys recruiting. Very counterproductive.
Luckily 'mad dog' Mattis [has at least in the past] said this. In this respect it turns out useful to have a military guy as secretary of defense.

“Torture and cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment is never a morally permissible option, even if lives depend on gaining information,” the US counterinsurgency field manual says. “Lose moral legitimacy, lose the war.”



Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on January 26, 2017, 10:37:32 AM
Weasel - Yugi is right: I wish it was as simple as you suggest, but I'm afraid that that is a naive view. Their principal aim is to unite the Muslim nations, not to destroy you. They need an enemy who acts unreasonably to do this. You are being played.

Be smarter than that. These leaders of ISIS aren't fools, and by portraying them only as homicidal maniacs you risk your own security. This is about hearts and minds. It's politics, and there are wheels within wheels just as there are in Washington. For both Trump and ISIS their foot soldiers are people who aren't able or willing to stop for one minute to consider whether they are being manipulated for someone else's gain.

The biggest threat to US security is overplaying your hand and losing the sympathy of your allies. Our Prime Minister is just about to be the first world leader to meet with Trump. But she is already having to fend off attacks from political opponents for meeting with someone who is a self-confessed sex offender and who advocates breaking international law on battlefield conduct. If Trump keeps making it harder and harder for leaders outside the US to align themselves with him, he is going to find co-operation on matters of intelligence etc drying up. This will impact significantly upon your security. It is in the US's best interests to try to keep its friends around the world. This requires diplomacy and accord, not making life harder for your friends.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on January 26, 2017, 11:09:44 AM
Using that kind of logic, then you guys should be happy that Hillary didn't get elected, there is nothing worse than a woman being the head of a government, let alone any position of authority.  Talk about a reason to join ISIS!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 26, 2017, 12:25:56 PM
It has nothing to do with religion because Muslims have been victims? You have a group trying to establish a caliphate with laws taken directly from the Koran....it has everything to do with religion.....and power...and yes it's complicated. But these kind people have been at the core of Islam since it's inception. Mohammed would be ISIS...you do realize that the early spread of Islam was through war and terror...or don't you? And their aim isn't just to unite Muslim nations. It's to spread their particularly virulent form of Islam all over.

Some excerpts from a CNN story about what ISIS wants
ISIS makes no secret of its ultimate ambition: A global caliphate secured through a global war. To that end it speaks of "remaining and expanding" its existing hold over much of Iraq and Syria. It aims to replace existing, man-made borders, to overcome what it sees as the Shiite "crescent" that has emerged across the Middle East, to take its war -- Islam's war -- to Europe and America, and ultimately to lead Muslims toward an apocalyptic battle against the "disbelievers."
They also quoted Dabiq...the ISIS magazine "the shade of the blessed flag will expand until it covers all eastern and western extents of the Earth."

Yes the west created this current mess with the carving up of North Africa after WWII. Stupid colonial moves by mostly the British and French...made worse by the US for cheap oil. We get that. But we have to deal with today....what do we do...let a bunch of whack job religious fundamentalists establish a state that has every intent of spreading sharia through the world? I suppose we are simply supposed to show them compassion and let them do what they will? ISIS spreads through terror and war... murders, rapes, enslaves by the 10's of thousands in some of the most horrific ways imaginable but we are supposed to be concerned that someone is going to make them uncomfortable and simulate drowning to get them to talk? A nation state with regular soldiers that fight under the Geneva convention...OK..no torture. For these guys we should get the power tools out just to ask them their names.

The usual hypotheticals...If we have a terrorist that knows where a suitcase nuke is in London or New York or Paris...what...we just ask them nicely where it is? And the other..your child is buried in a box with 3 hours of air...you have the guy who knows where he is....what do you do to find out?. If your answer is torture you're a hypocrite, if it's nothing....let's just say I can't understand that.

A10-I love how you think everyone else's view is naïve or that they are sad wankers because they don't agree with you. Yet you spout off about the latest headline without enough news in it to make an informed opinion....then tell me I'm drinking Kool-Aid....do you even understand what that phrase means? Because you have Kool-Aid stains on your lips, shit it's all over your face, hands, and clothes  and you don't even know it. If the press wasn't doing everything in their power to delegitimize Trump and all the Kool-Aid drinkers on the left would engage in some critical thought there wouldn't be half the hand-wringing going on or out cry from abroad or leaders not meeting. You play passive aggressive and attack anyone as stupid that doesn't agree with you. If weasel is being played by ISIS you're being played by the liberal press.

There is plenty to be concerned about with Trump but just maybe we should see where it goes before we get out the hangman's noose. But I guess the left is used to premature postulation....hey I know! let's give the nobel peace prize to someone who had done (and did) nothing to deserve it. Shit even Obama thought that was weird.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on January 26, 2017, 12:32:03 PM
And one more thing, why on Earth would anyone try to apply humanity to ISIS, ISIS!?!
They are always trying to figure out new more shocking ways to kill their prisoners, they even use their children (bread for terrorism) to do some of the killing, burning alive, very slowly, just for starters and it gets worse from there.
Do you really think they give two wits for waterboarding?  I'm sure they just laugh at the implication.

Now I'm not saying I'm in favor of waterboarding, I've never really made up my mind on that, but I have never bought into the multitude of reasons that people, mostly on the left, say are reasons for ISIS recruitment.  Those intangible reasons always seem to have an element of humanity attached to them.  ISIS doesn't give a fuck about humanity, they are in it for the apocalypse. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on January 26, 2017, 12:37:30 PM
Here's a thought-provoking article on what motivates ISIS, and the way that they intend to go about getting what they want. The trajectory that Trump is plotting, and the general rhetoric he is using, surely seems designed to help them to achieve exactly what they want?

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

Here is a quote from this article relevant to what we are discussing here (whether Trump's actions will undermine US security or bolster it):

"The biggest proponent of an American invasion is the Islamic State itself. The provocative videos, in which a black-hooded executioner addresses President Obama by name, are clearly made to draw America into the fight. An invasion would be a huge propaganda victory for jihadists worldwide: irrespective of whether they have given baya’a to the caliph, they all believe that the United States wants to embark on a modern-day Crusade and kill Muslims. Yet another invasion and occupation would confirm that suspicion, and bolster recruitment. Add the incompetence of our previous efforts as occupiers, and we have reason for reluctance. The rise of isis, after all, happened only because our previous occupation created space for Zarqawi and his followers. Who knows the consequences of another botched job?"
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on January 26, 2017, 03:03:11 PM
now here is something for recruiting. Showed up in my email.
I swear......I don't know what I did for it to show up there. Really.
https://donaldcoins.com/trump-half-dollar-coin3
even comes with a little stand and a certificate of authenticity

And if that don't work.....
https://www.amazon.com/Hillary-Clinton-Presidential-Commemorative-Aizics/dp/B01EQGZ0TE
(yeah, I searched that one out...this internet thing is just amazing)

oh my..........as if the entire Western Civilization ain't enough.
Going to have to read that article. I think I still got one to finish from last spring as well....
Yep, ya think Mr. Trump can fuel that recruiting up some? Probably so.
I don't think it matters really all that much....Donald, Hillary, Obama, George.....Brexit, Populist, Fascist, French, English, American......
I think it has everything to do with religion.....maybe not pitting Islam against Christianity ..but do you really call isis or the brotherhood thing a religion? What the hell are they following? Are they really any different than the kkk or (pick something) other than they have twisted the Koran? They are preaching but what is it they are really following? I guess I need to read those articles or something. How does that kind of stuff spread? I think they can ruin the world, I don't think they can take it over tho. It sure has not been spreading because of Donald Trump, he just got here front and center tho it has been spreading because of everything he stands for I guess........I might just be naive tho.
What a world we live in. Can you imagine the brutality of times past? Just amazing........
Rules of war. Really?
".......see, if you go to war with us, we're nice......"

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 28, 2017, 07:46:46 AM
I was giving more thought to some of this last night. All the outrage about cops rounding up a few journalists caught up in the middle of a riot...some of whose credentials are questionable.  You guys are insinuating that this has been done at the bidding of the new administration... that's just silly. Of course the liberal media where you are getting your info have inflated it to sound that way but I'm having a hard time understanding how people who have shown such intelligence in other posts can't see through the hype.

Where was all this outrage when the Obama admin went after reporters? The self proclaimed "most transparent administration ever" investigated, threatened, surveiled, many journalists when they were doing things they didn't want.....like reporting facts. And they set the record for denying freedom of information requests....very transparent of them. And of course you all believe Hillary's private server was just a matter of convenience and not because she was hiding her dirty deals. The left doesn't seem to remember Obama attacking Fox news and trying to bar them from press briefings, labeling them as an opponent or threatening reporters with jail time. Now they are outraged over Trumps attitude towards the media and acting like the arrest of a few "journalists" in the middle of a riot is a sign of impending doom.

Can't you guys see through this bullshit? You really need to stop getting your info just from sources that are so skewed to the left (and unfortunately that includes many of the major outlets) and spending a little more time thinking critically before forming an opinion.

Like I've said before, I'm no fan of Trump, lot's to dislike about him personally and there is much in his platform I don't agree with but the left lost. Now he gets his turn with the "phone and pen" and gets to push his agenda. That's the way it works. Everybody is screaming about partisanship.....except when they are screaming louder about getting their way..... ::)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on January 28, 2017, 08:43:57 AM
I've read a lot of history of Asia and the Middle East. The history of Islam is particularly violent and political. It was from its very inception. Most of the successors to Mohammad were assasinated.  Yes, there are moderate muslims and secular muslims who don't deserve to be tarred with that brush. And yes, the history of Christianity and other religions is violent, brutal and repressive. But it's generally historical except for a few whack jobs. There's nothing that rises to the level or scope of Wahhabism and the general intent and scope of fundamental Islam. The brutality of sharia law should make that clear to anyone paying attention. The Middle East was the seat of civilization before Islam spread through what we would currently call terror tactics. Now it isn't.

It's easy to point to endless mistakes in western policy toward the Middle East. But it's an incredibly complex and troubled region. Expertise is thin,but it can't simply be ignored. A seventeenth century mentality with access to 21st century tech is incredibly dangerous.

No easy answers. Unfortunately President Trump is unlikely to act with any sort of subtlety or discipline. If his advisors can reign him in the results could be better than previous administrations simply because there would be less likelihood of engagement ending as soon as it becomes politically uncomfortable.  I find it hard to believe that people considered president Obamas policies and actions to be effective and useful in any way.

I think Trump remains a narcissistic child, so everything depends on who he listens to and how he is managed. That's a nerve wracking situation, but it's what we've got. I wish him a successful presidency- because he's our president.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 28, 2017, 10:49:12 AM
It's such a friggin mess. I don't see any reasonable path out of this. Trump handling of it is troubling for sure. The heavy handed approach no question will piss some off enough to go over the edge but I don't see anyway its going to stop. It simply has to be contained. Sharia law is the test for me. If someone believes in sharia please leave the west. We are trying hard to rid ourselves of the leftover fundamentalism of christianity....we don't need your stupid shit to contend with too....17th century is generous Bill...7th is more like it.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on January 28, 2017, 12:32:22 PM

The Middle East was the seat of civilization before Islam spread through what we would currently call terror tactics.


Funny. I heard that there was a lot of religious tolerance in those events.  We must have different sources.

I would have said “… for the time”, but given what’s happening on the world stage these days, I deleted that part.

I have no dog in any fight. I am deeply non religious. In the organised sense of the word. Sadly I find most of organised religion ends up  reeking of human manipulated power trips. Whatever the original flavour.

I like what this wise human being has to say
   https://youtu.be/tmjzCyCIQjo
   
I can tell you that when you are buried deep under tons of snow, with a few minutes of air left to live with, that you care no longer for which name god has. They all suddenly blend into but one. Kind of like a big wave hold-down but stuck in concrete, way down low.

More people should surf and ski. Peace on earth.

   
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on January 28, 2017, 01:14:20 PM
Am I right to assume we probably won't be switching over to metric any time soon?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on January 28, 2017, 02:20:49 PM
As far as I know, they're already making the switch for hammers, screwdrivers and possibly, hacksaws...
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on January 28, 2017, 04:50:57 PM
And there goes the national parks, didn't really need those anyways. Maybe when they're building a golf cours, and shut down your beach access, you guys will realize what kind of thug you put in the white house. Can't afford the national parks but here's a great new wall. Also happy Holocaust Rememberance Day!

https://medium.com/@wilderness/new-bill-would-sell-off-3-million-acres-of-public-lands-9593763ac893#.bxhx744l0
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: deepmud on January 28, 2017, 10:33:33 PM
Trump signs executiver order, banning travel from 7 mainly Muslim countries (but not all .....).

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/01/29/protests-erupt-at-airports-around-u-s-following-trump-travel-ban.html

Fearism - we did this before. Jews were turned back too....

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005139


"During the second half of 1941, even as unconfirmed reports of the mass murder perpetrated by the Nazis filtered to the West, the US Department of State placed even stricter limits on immigration based on national security concerns." (Same concerns that rounded up the Japanese-Americans? - 2nd and 3rd generation Americans?)

Today is National Holocaust Day.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on January 29, 2017, 12:23:22 AM
If this Executive Order is about stopping terrorists, then why has he chosen to ban people from these particular countries?

ABC news:

"Trump categorized the executive order as part of a vetting plan to prevent "radical Islamic terrorists" from reaching American soil.

The seven-page document calls for an immediate suspension of immigration from countries with ties to terror -- Syria, Yemen, Sudan, Somalia, Iraq, Iran and Libya -- for a time period of 90 days. But none of the countries on the list have had anything to do with terror incidents on U.S. soil since the 9/11 attacks, and Saudi Arabia -- where 15 of the 9/11 hijackers were from -- is not included".

Maybe this is just an excuse for the real reason: religious discrimination:

"Trump told the the Christian Broadcasting Network that Christian refugees would be given priority over Muslims in applications to come to the U.S.

"We are going to help them," Trump said of Christians in Syria." (ABC News.)

Does he know that Jesus is arguably the second most revered religious figure in Islam, and that most of what Christians believe about Jesus is also believed by Muslims? If he wants to help people who believe in Christ then he should be helping Muslims too.

If it isn't belief in Christ as a redeemer, miracle-doer, result of an immaculate conception, transcendent to heaven, messenger of God etc that identifies Christians as worthy of Trump's help (since Muslims believe all of this too), then what is it, exactly?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on January 29, 2017, 02:03:22 AM
...
Maybe this is just an excuse for the real reason: religious discrimination:

"Trump told the the Christian Broadcasting Network that Christian refugees would be given priority over Muslims in applications to come to the U.S.

"We are going to help them," Trump said of Christians in Syria." (ABC News.)

...

What a terrible message that sends.



Here is a guy who is removing threat.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on January 29, 2017, 04:35:22 AM
I've read a lot of history of Asia and the Middle East. The history of Islam is particularly violent and political. It was from its very inception. Most of the successors to Mohammad were assasinated.  Yes, there are moderate muslims and secular muslims who don't deserve to be tarred with that brush. And yes, the history of Christianity and other religions is violent, brutal and repressive. But it's generally historical except for a few whack jobs. There's nothing that rises to the level or scope of Wahhabism and the general intent and scope of fundamental Islam. The brutality of sharia law should make that clear to anyone paying attention.
Well, I had to look up Wahhabism. I saw the word I wondered if that was something like Bananastan. Nope.
I looked up sharia as well tho that wasn't a new word to me I don't know lots about it. Still not convinced it is an all inclusive instruction manual to go along with the Book but I simply do not know. Seems more like an interpretation or addendum. That's always how I kind of thought it fit in I guess. Can't you take the ten commandments or any one of a number of things from the Bible and twist it in such a way it would be just as convoluted beyond recognition?  Putting the sharia law into the whole thing I guess answers my question about wondering what they are following.
Yeah, I am far more on board with what Mister Lama says.

Interesting that one of the things I read about sharia is:
"Sharia is a significant source of legislation in many Muslim countries but Saudi Arabia is the only one that practices it."
Hmmmmmm.

"Trump told the the Christian Broadcasting Network that Christian refugees would be given priority over Muslims in applications to come to the U.S.
"We are going to help them," Trump said of Christians in Syria." (ABC News.)
Yes, that is a terrible message that has been put out there. I did see that. I am not sure how you can not scratch your head at that with the message it sends. I will even go on board with the quote I just saw from Hilary. "This isn't what we are about". (ok, I didn't click and read further tho) It really just goes against the basis of why we are even a country.
What a mess.

I saw something on executive orders the other day. Most presidents do this alot in their first bit of time in office. (no, that doesn't mean I am on board with it)
Examples.
Emancipation Proclamation.
Japanese Internment.
Guantanamo.
Congress doesn't have to fund them. (guantanamo)
Supreme court has nixed them......(tho sounds like not often)
I don't know......

Not a fan of selling off public lands but I don't know enough about each instance to throw a broad brush over the whole thing. I do know that around here with the millions of acres and only a small amount of private land we are seeing our access just disappear out of nowhere the last while. They have closed off areas that have always had access (trails/roads/two tracks/etc) and not post them as closed. Vague to no explanation when people find out and it is questioned. Fall comes around and people go into these areas they have been going into for years and years and years and they get written up. The head of a forest district here came from some sort of government work and always lived back east and was never part of the forest service, public lands, etc. They chose him to run it. Imagine that. A person clueless to the way of the forest and someone from back east (hardly any public land) coming out west (public land as far as you can see) to tell us how to use our forest. This past summer they decided to plow up and bulldoze some areas to keep people out of them. Make it more apparent an area was closed I guess to keep what had happened the previous few years from having such bad press. Well, they bulldozed historical areas of the Lander Trail with ruts left from the wagon trains. These weren't secret areas. How dumb can they get? Kind of took the bad press from the previous years and amplified it. I guess what I am saying is if they are going to take away our access on public lands.........what's the use of having public land?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on January 29, 2017, 06:08:03 AM
Luca, if they're mismanaging or denying access to public land that sucks, but at least it's still there and is only temporarily unavailable. Make some calls to your representatives and other political folks, voice your discontent, start a local Facebook page and get on it that way, talk to outdoor groups in your area, get people to the bar together and talk about it. But once that shit is sold it's most likely gone forever.
I'll also admit that I don't know any details about this other than what's in the article, none of these are yet East Coast states, but I've spent a little time out west, and would hate to think about those spaces getting used for anything else than parks. I think it sets the wrong precedent.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: raf on January 29, 2017, 10:04:12 AM
If the press wasn't doing everything in their power to delegitimize Trump and all the Kool-Aid drinkers on the left would engage in some critical thought there wouldn't be half the hand-wringing going on or out cry from abroad or leaders not meeting.

This is stupid.  Trump is delegitimizing himself.  Trump is also incapable of critical thought, which in my opinion is his worst quality. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on January 29, 2017, 10:46:05 AM
Wouldn't you have thought that if you were president, especially in only your second week, and were considering issuing an Executive Order, you might first run it by a few of your lawyers just to see if it would hold up in court?

https://youtu.be/RZ1ynUmsZCI

It certainly makes the US look like a very fearful bunch of people: your chance of being killed by a refugee is apparently 1 in 3.6 BILLION per year.

http://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2017/01/29/exp-gps-0129-take-travel-ban.cnn/video/playlists/donald-trump-muslims/

I love the detail that none of the countries that Trump named has a Trump hotel/office/business in it. However, according to the Washington Post:

"The executive order makes no mention of Saudi Arabia, home of 15 of the 19 terrorists involved in the 9/11 attacks. The Trump Organization had incorporated several limited liability companies in preparation for an attempt to build a hotel in Saudi Arabia, showing an interest in expansion in the country."
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on January 29, 2017, 12:22:56 PM


Trump's desire for approval / reinforcement vs. fact has just created a dangerous filter bubble: A self-described Leninist is now running the US security counsel while the joint chiefs are gone. Mr. Putin cannot believe his luck. Deflect that stoneaxe.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38787241
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on January 29, 2017, 12:56:29 PM
Achtung! Germans on the rise!

(language NSFW)

http://youtu.be/HMQkV5cTuoY
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on January 29, 2017, 03:30:08 PM
 John McCain
 
Our government has a responsibility to defend our borders, but we must do so in a way that makes us safer and upholds all that is decent and exceptional about our nation.
It is clear from the confusion at our airports across the nation that President Trump’s executive order was not properly vetted. We are particularly concerned by reports that this order went into effect with little to no consultation with the Departments of State, Defense, Justice, and Homeland Security.
Such a hasty process risks harmful results. We should not stop green-card holders from returning to the country they call home. We should not stop those who have served as interpreters for our military and diplomats from seeking refuge in the country they risked their lives to help. And we should not turn our backs on those refugees who have been shown through extensive vetting to pose no demonstrable threat to our nation, and who have suffered unspeakable horrors, most of them women and children.
Ultimately, we fear this executive order will become a self-inflicted wound in the fight against terrorism. At this very moment, American troops are fighting side-by-side with our Iraqi partners to defeat ISIL. But this executive order bans Iraqi pilots from coming to military bases in Arizona to fight our common enemies. Our most important allies in the fight against ISIL are the vast majority of Muslims who reject its apocalyptic ideology of hatred. This executive order sends a signal, intended or not, that America does not want Muslims coming into our country. That is why we fear this executive order may do more to help terrorist recruitment than improve our security.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on January 29, 2017, 06:36:58 PM
John McCain
 
Our government has a responsibility to defend our borders, but we must do so in a way that makes us safer and upholds all that is decent and exceptional about our nation.
It is clear from the confusion at our airports across the nation that President Trump’s executive order was not properly vetted. We are particularly concerned by reports that this order went into effect with little to no consultation with the Departments of State, Defense, Justice, and Homeland Security.
Such a hasty process risks harmful results. We should not stop green-card holders from returning to the country they call home. We should not stop those who have served as interpreters for our military and diplomats from seeking refuge in the country they risked their lives to help. And we should not turn our backs on those refugees who have been shown through extensive vetting to pose no demonstrable threat to our nation, and who have suffered unspeakable horrors, most of them women and children.
Ultimately, we fear this executive order will become a self-inflicted wound in the fight against terrorism. At this very moment, American troops are fighting side-by-side with our Iraqi partners to defeat ISIL. But this executive order bans Iraqi pilots from coming to military bases in Arizona to fight our common enemies. Our most important allies in the fight against ISIL are the vast majority of Muslims who reject its apocalyptic ideology of hatred. This executive order sends a signal, intended or not, that America does not want Muslims coming into our country. That is why we fear this executive order may do more to help terrorist recruitment than improve our security.


This is EXACTLY why I have been so focused on the lack of experience that this whole administration have (you know in addition to trump being mentally ill). You can't have beginners run a country.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on January 29, 2017, 07:14:23 PM
This Bannon thing is scary as well. Zero clearance or vetting.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/29/us/politics/stephen-bannon-security-council.html?smid=fb-share&referer=https://m.facebook.com/
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on January 29, 2017, 08:48:36 PM
This Bannon thing is scary as well. Zero clearance or vetting.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/29/us/politics/stephen-bannon-security-council.html?smid=fb-share&referer=https://m.facebook.com/

Yeah when you put a self declared leninist at the top of that room, it is time to worry...more. I bet Putin can't even believe his "luck". I still wonder how stoneaxe will deflect this to something about clinton. Sigh..probably mostly because I have no idea how all this absolute bullshit wasn't clear to everyone.

Got damn it.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: southwesterly on January 29, 2017, 09:02:41 PM
Obviously this is before he signed the order, but you get the point about the countries that he has personal business ties with.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: surfinJ on January 29, 2017, 10:30:19 PM
Humor can be a nice salve for times like these.

https://youtu.be/ELD2AwFN9Nc

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on January 29, 2017, 11:16:27 PM
Obviously this is before he signed the order, but you get the point about the countries that he has personal business ties with.

The 7 countries make perfect sense (nothing new). They are war zones and all have active al quaida or Daesh (ISIS) activity. Plus Iran because of the the nuclear issue.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on January 30, 2017, 03:47:07 AM
As of Friday, the best-selling book on Amazon, is...

1984 - George Orwell


Yes, for real.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on January 30, 2017, 09:08:38 AM
 With all the distractions it's challenging to understand what Trump is actually doing, and what I see should be much more upsetting to the democrats, and almost equally so to republicans. He's building on his base. And it has little to do with the current political elite or established relationships between government and industry and current allies and enemies. It is brilliant in its own nasty way.

For example, he met with union leaders over the weekend. Not a meet and greet, a full court meeting for almost two hours. That should have the dems shitting themselves but I see no mention of it. Then a few hours with major industries to talk about jobs, us manufacturing, tariffs, etc..

He shoots NAFTA in he head, and the media whines a little. That's the end of the globalism Bill Clinton started when he sold our asses to china.  I expect most of the favored nation status of China to evaporate.

He didn't care what judges did to his executive order. He's playing to the crowd, and they see an attempt to protect them that's been circumvented by liberal dickheads.

Populism, on a grand scale. With enough support he gets to do what he wants, and I don't know what that is. But I know established politics at home and abroad has no idea how to deal with the guy, and the media is being characteristically stupid. No hotels in the banned countries. How stupid can they be.  The people he's playing to, which is not just his current base, sees a rational idea, that needs tuning. The media is focused on people who don't deserve to be excluded, ignoring what the vast majority of Americans fear from refugees and the chaos in Europe that refugees have caused.  The media either does think he's playing small and crooked, or is pretending to think that. He's not.

You can keep following the drumbeat of panicked media, or start looking behind the nonsense to see what's happening, though I suspect that would worry anyone that hates the jerk a lot more.

Oh, and A10, your understanding of Islam sounds like it comes from a kids coloring book.  To virtually all Muslim sects, the worship of Jesus as god is idolatry. The reason sunnis kill shites is their low level worship of saints as representatives of God. Imagine what they think of people who worships Jesus AS god.  The "hey, Jesus is cool too" stuff is nonsense. Even Mohammed doesn't get a birthday celebration..
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on January 30, 2017, 09:34:37 AM
So what is happening?
Creating a closed group within the government not using anyone but your own people. Talking to foreign countries not using US interpreters who have security clearance. Denying access to parts of the government that control science, parks,epa, fda,usda. Clearing out the state department. Running around with an unsecured Samsung Galaxy 3 phone and using private email. Waging a campaign against people who are "dangerous" but really easy to pick out. Who doesn't give a fuck about being sued? Who's been helping bomb the shit out of Syria and sending a steady stream of refugees into Europe?
Fuck, I'm going to go make myself a tinfoil hat.
Probably lefty but paints a good and worrisome picture.
https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/trial-balloon-for-a-coup-e024990891d5#.1xrimxa7r
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on January 30, 2017, 09:43:26 AM
Interesting excerpt from

They Thought They Were Free
The Germans, 1933-45
Milton Mayer

http://press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 30, 2017, 09:44:41 AM
My "deflections" to Clinton were mostly to point out your hypocrisy taut...this hasn't changed my opinion there. You've done nothing to prove otherwise. I agree that this is ridiculously heavy handed, I don't agree with his tactics. Existing green card holders, current visas....stupid. As for stopping further visas and immigration....we need to be far more picky about who gets let in...like I previously mentioned...believe in sharia...bye, bye. As for what countries....Saudi should be on the list. They and their export of Wahhabism are at the core of a large part of the worlds terrorism. The madrassas they have funded have been the source of jihad since their inception.
You guys can act like the left has no hand in this but just like Obama was in large part caused by Bush this is at least in part a reaction to years of the left pushing their agenda without compromise. None of you had any problem when Obama was wielding his pen...you reap what you sow. Unfortunately now we have Trump doing the sowing.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on January 30, 2017, 09:44:57 AM
Of course he is, johnnysmoke. He can't assume or expect loyalty from established elites. Of course every president does that to some degree, but most have dues the need to pay. Trump doesn't. So yeah, heads will roll.

I can make a strong case for excluding people with current green cards and visas who leave the country and return. Anyone could.  The failure of the media to address rationale--if only to explain it away--and focus on the plight of unjustly excluded people is absurd.

There are very few of Trumps actions that I support, but I understand all of them. They are not irrational. Keep thinking they are and you you play by Trumps playbook. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on January 30, 2017, 09:57:12 AM
Of course he is, johnnysmoke. He can't assume or expect loyalty from established elites. Of course every president does that to some degree, but most have dues the need to pay. Trump doesn't. So yeah, heads will roll.
I mean I can understand if the state department is all Clinton loyalist cleaning house, it's like a hostile takover. We have no idea what Trump's dues are because he never released his taxes. He's sold the notion of billionaire but we know he's leveraged heavily, but without the taxes we can only guess.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on January 30, 2017, 10:04:43 AM

There are very few of Trumps actions that I support, but I understand all of them. They are not irrational. Keep thinking they are and you you play by Trumps playbook.
I think he's completely irrational, but someone definitely has their long game on, and we're stuck playing catch up. Probably all just probing and testing reactions at this point, feeling things out, meanwhile building up resources and systems close at hand.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on January 30, 2017, 10:20:11 AM
As of Friday, the best-selling book on Amazon, is...

1984 - George Orwell


Yes, for real.
As fiction or non-fiction?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: surf4food on January 30, 2017, 10:28:13 AM
As for stopping further visas and immigration....we need to be far more picky about who gets let in...like I previously mentioned...believe in sharia...bye, bye.

I'm guessing that the overwhelming majority of Muslims trying to get here are trying to escape sharia law.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUP Leave on January 30, 2017, 10:52:14 AM
I coached 9 youth basketball games this weekend and was too busy to actually review the "muslim ban" E.O. until a few minutes ago. My facebook and twitter was overwhelmed with the outcry all weekend, and it was impossible to try and pierce through all of that to get to what actually is in the E.O.

My wife and oldest daughter were asking me questions about it and I had no answer. With the reaction of the left and MSM to each item put forth from this administration, it is almost impossible to understand what is going on until you have a chance to really read up on the issue for yourself.

My first thought was "has any president ever done this before?" The answer is yes, but not to this extent or this ham-handedly. (Obama 2011 -Iraq refugees, Carter 1980 Iran visa holders).

PonoBill is right, it is Trump appealing to his populist base and completing another of his campaign promises. He is working faster than any president possibly ever, but in my opinion this should have passed through the proper channels. However, in Trump's mind he knows that this would take a month to pass through the proper channels, so he bypassed them. I almost never agree with McCain on anything and in this case he is right (someone posted above).

Obama started this program of abusing the Executive Orders to get things done, and Trump is going to follow his lead and then some. It will be interesting to see if Trump issues a revision regarding existing green card holders and folks working with our military (per McCain). He hasn't walked back much yet, so I'm not holding my breath.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Subber on January 30, 2017, 10:56:09 AM
Quote
Trump Pledges ‘Big Number’ on Dodd-Frank in Anti-Rule Push (Bloomberg, 1-30-17)
President Donald Trump stepped up his criticism of financial regulations, pledging to go after the 2010 Dodd-Frank banking overhaul because he said the law has made it difficult for businesses to get loans.

“We’re going to be doing a big number on Dodd-Frank," Trump said Monday at an event with small business leaders at the White House. He called the legislation “a disaster" and said, “It’s almost impossible now to start a small business and it’s virtually impossible to expand your existing business.”

Trump’s remarks are his most pointed on financial rules since he took office Jan. 20. His advisers vowed to dismantle Dodd-Frank during the transition period, but have provided scant details on how they plan to go about it. Trump didn’t say whether he planned to attack the law through executive action or by working with Congress on legislation.

Banks and investors have been trying to decipher how the billionaire will balance his populist message to the middle class with his Wall Street ties, which include a cadre of former Goldman Sachs Group Inc. bankers he’s tapped for key roles in his administration.

This will be interesting. 
We are already up to our eyeballs in debt.
Banks, brokers, insurance, already get huge subsidies, monopoly powers, etc.
He does have a lot of GS people in his cabinet and he is a debt guy.

Of course, the rules could be streamlined a lot,
but a lot of mayhem could be created.

We'll have to watch and see what he tries to do.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on January 30, 2017, 10:56:23 AM
Oh, and A10, your understanding of Islam sounds like it comes from a kids coloring book.  To virtually all Muslim sects, the worship of Jesus as god is idolatry. The reason sunnis kill shites is their low level worship of saints as representatives of God. Imagine what they think of people who worships Jesus AS god.  The "hey, Jesus is cool too" stuff is nonsense. Even Mohammed doesn't get a birthday celebration..
Wow, you and your brother are very quick to throw insults around, aren't you? I didn't say that Muslims believe in Jesus as a god. I said: "Jesus is arguably the second most revered religious figure in Islam" (after Mohammed).

Here's a typical summary of the position as described by Tarif Khalidi, who is a Palestinian historian who now holds the Shaykh Zayid Chair in Islamic and Arabic Studies at the American University of Beirut in Lebanon:

"Jesus reinterpreted by the Qur'an is singled out, again and again, as a prophet of very special significance. Uniquely among prophets he is described as a miracle of God, an aya; he is the word and spirit of God; he is the prophet of peace par excellence; and, finally it is he who predicts the coming of Muhammad (pbuh) and thus, one might say, is the harbinger of Islam".
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on January 30, 2017, 11:39:19 AM
Quote

President Donald Trump stepped up his criticism of financial regulations, pledging to go after the 2010 Dodd-Frank banking overhaul

This will be interesting. 

Of course, the rules could be streamlined a lot,
but a lot of mayhem could be created.


Yep.  It could very easily get way messier and be very costly to update systems and procedures which were put in place to adhere to these regulations. Very costly! I get the impression he doesn’t really think things through.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 30, 2017, 01:26:06 PM
As for stopping further visas and immigration....we need to be far more picky about who gets let in...like I previously mentioned...believe in sharia...bye, bye.

I'm guessing that the overwhelming majority of Muslims trying to get here are trying to escape sharia law.

And if they can pass that test welcome. I have no concern of muslims in general, but I'd prefer we weren't bringing people here that want to tear our culture apart and replace it with their own......that doesn't just apply to sharia, orthodox/fundamentalist anything that want to force their beliefs through politics can screw. I'm certainly not happy with that part of Trumps admin.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 30, 2017, 01:46:16 PM
Oh, and A10, your understanding of Islam sounds like it comes from a kids coloring book.  To virtually all Muslim sects, the worship of Jesus as god is idolatry. The reason sunnis kill shites is their low level worship of saints as representatives of God. Imagine what they think of people who worships Jesus AS god.  The "hey, Jesus is cool too" stuff is nonsense. Even Mohammed doesn't get a birthday celebration..
Wow, you and your brother are very quick to throw insults around, aren't you? I didn't say that Muslims believe in Jesus as a god. I said: "Jesus is arguably the second most revered religious figure in Islam" (after Mohammed).
And he didn't say you did...just that the worship of Jesus will get your head cut off in some places. Oh and love the false outrage about insults...from you that's funny....almost pdx level irony.... ::)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on January 30, 2017, 02:39:36 PM
Careful Stoney, that head-chopper douche had a thick London accent.

Radicalisation stinks. It’s a distortion of a religion used for evil.

Let’s back off religious dick waving please.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: deepmud on January 30, 2017, 03:15:13 PM
I've read a lot of history of Asia and the Middle East. The history of Islam is particularly violent and political. It was from its very inception. Most of the successors to Mohammad were assasinated.  Yes, there are moderate muslims and secular muslims who don't deserve to be tarred with that brush. And yes, the history of Christianity and other religions is violent, brutal and repressive. But it's generally historical except for a few whack jobs. There's nothing that rises to the level or scope of Wahhabism and the general intent and scope of fundamental Islam. The brutality of sharia law should make that clear to anyone paying attention.
Well, I had to look up Wahhabism. I saw the word I wondered if that was something like Bananastan. Nope.
I looked up sharia as well tho that wasn't a new word to me I don't know lots about it. Still not convinced it is an all inclusive instruction manual to go along with the Book but I simply do not know. Seems more like an interpretation or addendum. That's always how I kind of thought it fit in I guess. Can't you take the ten commandments or any one of a number of things from the Bible and twist it in such a way it would be just as convoluted beyond recognition?  Putting the sharia law into the whole thing I guess answers my question about wondering what they are following.
Yeah, I am far more on board with what Mister Lama says.

Interesting that one of the things I read about sharia is:
"Sharia is a significant source of legislation in many Muslim countries but Saudi Arabia is the only one that practices it."
Hmmmmmm.

"Trump told the the Christian Broadcasting Network that Christian refugees would be given priority over Muslims in applications to come to the U.S.
"We are going to help them," Trump said of Christians in Syria." (ABC News.)
Yes, that is a terrible message that has been put out there. I did see that. I am not sure how you can not scratch your head at that with the message it sends. I will even go on board with the quote I just saw from Hilary. "This isn't what we are about". (ok, I didn't click and read further tho) It really just goes against the basis of why we are even a country.
What a mess.

I saw something on executive orders the other day. Most presidents do this alot in their first bit of time in office. (no, that doesn't mean I am on board with it)
Examples.
Emancipation Proclamation.
Japanese Internment.
Guantanamo.
Congress doesn't have to fund them. (guantanamo)
Supreme court has nixed them......(tho sounds like not often)
I don't know......

Not a fan of selling off public lands but I don't know enough about each instance to throw a broad brush over the whole thing. I do know that around here with the millions of acres and only a small amount of private land we are seeing our access just disappear out of nowhere the last while. They have closed off areas that have always had access (trails/roads/two tracks/etc) and not post them as closed. Vague to no explanation when people find out and it is questioned. Fall comes around and people go into these areas they have been going into for years and years and years and they get written up. The head of a forest district here came from some sort of government work and always lived back east and was never part of the forest service, public lands, etc. They chose him to run it. Imagine that. A person clueless to the way of the forest and someone from back east (hardly any public land) coming out west (public land as far as you can see) to tell us how to use our forest. This past summer they decided to plow up and bulldoze some areas to keep people out of them. Make it more apparent an area was closed I guess to keep what had happened the previous few years from having such bad press. Well, they bulldozed historical areas of the Lander Trail with ruts left from the wagon trains. These weren't secret areas. How dumb can they get? Kind of took the bad press from the previous years and amplified it. I guess what I am saying is if they are going to take away our access on public lands.........what's the use of having public land?



I think you are putting the finger on a problem the Dems didn't think was a problem - the locking up, mis"protection" of the land the public owns and uses.

This happened awhile back up here - Park Rangers acting like "illegal search and seizure" wasn't a thing - pulled guns/acted like "respek' ma' authori-TE' !! " was all they needed to jump on/arrest a citizen (70 year old guy out on the Yukon) .....

I am not sure of the final resolution on all this - it went a long way in the courts and we quit hearing about it.

Point is - this "shit show" was under Obama - the "nice guy".....This kind of frustration had me voting for Palin for Governor  - it just seemed like ANYBODY would be better than the "good ol' boys" ......

Looking back - I was wrong...... this might be part of why I'm so unhappy with Trump - he seems a lot like Palin.....say one thing to get to in, then to whatever you want to while in office .....( then quit seems unlikely this time...)

Link to the story - if you have time with ALL the stuff we have to read to try to make sense of all that is going on.....

https://www.adn.com/rural-alaska/article/feds-defend-aiming-shotgun-elderly-alaskans-yukon-river/2011/04/07/
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on January 30, 2017, 05:18:35 PM
Oh, and A10, your understanding of Islam sounds like it comes from a kids coloring book.  To virtually all Muslim sects, the worship of Jesus as god is idolatry. The reason sunnis kill shites is their low level worship of saints as representatives of God. Imagine what they think of people who worships Jesus AS god.  The "hey, Jesus is cool too" stuff is nonsense. Even Mohammed doesn't get a birthday celebration..
Wow, you and your brother are very quick to throw insults around, aren't you? I didn't say that Muslims believe in Jesus as a god. I said: "Jesus is arguably the second most revered religious figure in Islam" (after Mohammed).

Here's a typical summary of the position as described by Tarif Khalidi, who is a Palestinian historian who now holds the Shaykh Zayid Chair in Islamic and Arabic Studies at the American University of Beirut in Lebanon:

"Jesus reinterpreted by the Qur'an is singled out, again and again, as a prophet of very special significance. Uniquely among prophets he is described as a miracle of God, an aya; he is the word and spirit of God; he is the prophet of peace par excellence; and, finally it is he who predicts the coming of Muhammad (pbuh) and thus, one might say, is the harbinger of Islam".

Sorry, that's nothing but bullshit.

And you are the last person I worry about insulting. Though my intent was not to insult. That's an honest reaction. If you buy that bullshit from an islamic scholar despite 2000 years of history then you'll buy anything that suits your worldview.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 30, 2017, 05:55:15 PM
There have been a lot of head choppers since him Yugi.....and the head chop reference was a euphemism for just how little regard fundamentalist islamists have for other religions....which was my brothers point. Very simple....take a look at how the Saudi's treat other religions...no open practice....any items related to another religion are forbidden. How about someone converting religion in pretty much any of the Muslim majority countries.....better plan on moving to the west. Which again brings back my argument about sharia....if you believe in it don't come here. If the left hates intolerance so much why not have the test be based at least in part on a belief in tolerance?

Radicalization does stink....whether it be religion or politics. My continuing argument here which keeps being ignored is just that. I hate the far left and far right with equal passion. Hypocrisy so thick it destroys any logic. Both sides screaming so loud about getting their way...and only their way....that compromise is impossible. The pendulum just takes wild swings in either direction. This swing back to the right I'm afraid, like Trump himself, is going to be ugly and without grace.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 30, 2017, 07:00:49 PM
I voted for Bill Clinton. He seemed much like a JFK democrat. I was just reading his 95 state of the union address in response to some of the discussion here. It's weird reading it now. the things that he was recognized for at the time, generating non partisan ovations,  are negatives now......tough on crime, welfare reform, immigration.....funny...he sounded so much like Trump (granted with far more charm)  yet the press was giving him almost as many blowjobs as Monica.

"All Americans, not only in the states most heavily affected but in every place in this country, are rightly disturbed by the large numbers of illegal aliens entering our country. The jobs they hold might otherwise be held by citizens or legal immigrants. The public service they use impose burdens on our taxpayers. That's why our administration has moved aggressively to secure our borders more by hiring a record number of new border guards, by deporting twice as many criminal aliens as ever before, by cracking down on illegal hiring, by barring welfare benefits to illegal aliens. In the budget I will present to you, we will try to do more to speed the deportation of illegal aliens who are arrested for crimes, to better identify illegal aliens in the workplace as recommended by the commission headed by former Congresswoman Barbara Jordan. We are a nation of immigrants. But we are also a nation of laws. It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years, and we must do more to stop it."

Now we are racist dirtbags if you feel this way...... ::). The left has swung the pendulum so far out that they think the middle is the far right.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on January 30, 2017, 07:59:26 PM
.......and now, how dare they? Or would it be, how dare him?
During this magic week of festivities in Houston they are asking Tom Brady to explain himself in regards to Donald Trump.
hahahahahaha
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2017/01/30/tom-brady-donald-trump-super-bowl-li-51-patriots-falcons/97235644/
Yes, this is all important for Tom to do.......and he should look to Colin Kaepernick as an example on how this is done.
 ;)


Not a fan of selling off public lands but I don't know enough about each instance to throw a broad brush over the whole thing. I do know that around here with the millions of acres and only a small amount of private land we are seeing our access just disappear out of nowhere the last while. They have closed off areas that have always had access (trails/roads/two tracks/etc) and not post them as closed. Vague to no explanation when people find out and it is questioned. Fall comes around and people go into these areas they have been going into for years and years and years and they get written up. The head of a forest district here came from some sort of government work and always lived back east and was never part of the forest service, public lands, etc. They chose him to run it. Imagine that. A person clueless to the way of the forest and someone from back east (hardly any public land) coming out west (public land as far as you can see) to tell us how to use our forest. This past summer they decided to plow up and bulldoze some areas to keep people out of them. Make it more apparent an area was closed I guess to keep what had happened the previous few years from having such bad press. Well, they bulldozed historical areas of the Lander Trail with ruts left from the wagon trains. These weren't secret areas. How dumb can they get? Kind of took the bad press from the previous years and amplified it. I guess what I am saying is if they are going to take away our access on public lands.........what's the use of having public land?

I think you are putting the finger on a problem the Dems didn't think was a problem - the locking up, mis"protection" of the land the public owns and uses.

This happened awhile back up here - Park Rangers acting like "illegal search and seizure" wasn't a thing - pulled guns/acted like "respek' ma' authori-TE' !! " was all they needed to jump on/arrest a citizen (70 year old guy out on the Yukon) .....

I am not sure of the final resolution on all this - it went a long way in the courts and we quit hearing about it.

Point is - this "shit show" was under Obama - the "nice guy".....This kind of frustration had me voting for Palin for Governor  - it just seemed like ANYBODY would be better than the "good ol' boys" ......

Looking back - I was wrong...... this might be part of why I'm so unhappy with Trump - he seems a lot like Palin.....say one thing to get to in, then to whatever you want to while in office .....( then quit seems unlikely this time...)

Link to the story - if you have time with ALL the stuff we have to read to try to make sense of all that is going on.....

https://www.adn.com/rural-alaska/article/feds-defend-aiming-shotgun-elderly-alaskans-yukon-river/2011/04/07/
  I'm not sure if it's from 9/11 and homeland security stuff and ramped up with Obama or just what but it's really changing and seems around that timeline and just kind of snowballing. It was there a few years ago it seems but thinking back the last couple summers it was getting kind of different for a bit before you noticed. Definitely not the same going out in the woods anymore it seems. Hell, just running up and down the hiway that is in the forest. Seems when they started closing off areas around dams (some real ridiculous stuff happening with that around here) after 9/11 and has just really gotten more.......not the same since.
Trails and roads don't get rebuilt or maintained, campgrounds close down generally falling into disrepair and not maintained for a while before hand or perhaps during a high water year the river jumps it's banks and washes some away and they don't rebuild. Lots of different little things and then all these new cops or rangers or whatever they are are out there. I still can't figure out a reason to have so many forest service cops. This isn't the park, it's the forest but if you think the parks were bad with gung ho rangers before.......go check it out now. At the same time this is all happening at the advent of the four wheeler which is out there all over tho those are not in the parks.
Have had a forest service lease in the family around 90 years. They want to base the fee for the lease off of private land with infrastructure and services in nearby or same zip codes. Right in town with some comparisions. High demand, low inventory private land vs. a lease on public land where it can not be your residence and you ain't getting in without snowshoes or skis or a sled for honestly 4-5 months of the year. That's been going on for quite a few years and keeps coming up every few years it seems. Been lots of little changes over the years of what we can and can't do.
We are losing access and freedom to go into and use lots of areas and the management has been non too stellar in perception and in reality. Those are good ideas johnny. We have wrote to reps in the past regarding the lease. Never thought about it for any of this other stuff. Hell, I didn't think of it for that.  Would take a lot of thought to send something off regarding all that. Maybe a facebook page.


Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on January 30, 2017, 08:39:13 PM
This is concise (a little too abbreviated) and correct. You should at least understand this much. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-wahhabism-saudi-arabia_b_5717157.html
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SaMoSUP on January 30, 2017, 09:02:16 PM
This is an interesting read about the extreme vetting process before the E.O...

I think all the drama is because the status quo is being broken down now that sh!t is actually being done. Walk the talk. Change is a scary thing.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/01/i-went-through-americas-extreme-vetting-214703

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on January 30, 2017, 09:53:13 PM
This is concise (a little too abbreviated) and correct. You should at least understand this much. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-wahhabism-saudi-arabia_b_5717157.html

I know. I grew up in a building where King Faisal would come to spend summer months. Wives, kids and servants in tow. I shared my playground with them (not that they play much). You would have loved their cars.

Saudi Arabia certainly is one place no amount of money could convince me to move to. The ruling elite impose draconian twisted sect-like rules on their people but live a completely different lifestyle. We get much of the elite in Geneva every summer where they party, misbehave and idolise jewelery/luxury goods  like there is no tomorrow. Total hypocrisy.

I hope you know that most of the muslim world thinks of Wahhabism as a pretty vile sect. Even Muhammad Ibn Abd al-Wahhab's father and brother opposed his views.  Hope you also know that the big allies of Wahhabis have been America and Britain. (Need I mention Saudi assets in the US?). Western “intelligence” (oh the irony) made a big booboo in igniting Salafi jihadism. Now how do we get that monster back in the closet? Certainly not with the religious hate Trump is stirring up.

If Trump’s goal was to create a war so that he could stay in power another term he certainly is taking the right steps.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: deepmud on January 30, 2017, 09:55:45 PM
This is concise (a little too abbreviated) and correct. You should at least understand this much. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-wahhabism-saudi-arabia_b_5717157.html

EDIT - I was typing while Yugi was typing - just FYI


So - question - I keep seeing posts on Muslims, and ISIS ( your link is ALL about ISIS) - I've have had Muslim neighbors - great people who left Afganistan.(EDIT: Left when the Russians invaded)   I'd trust - well, I DID trust, my children with them. When I think of the refugees, and the people with Green Cards, I think of them.

Do you mean to implicate/associate those Muslims with the ISIS Muslims? I realize, the "extreme vetting" is about stopping ISIS - but we shouldn't mistake their motives for the motives of most of the Muslims in the world -


Right? Or are you advocating that? Perhaps you don't realize it - but it is coming across like that when I read  your posts. I have co-workers who ABSOLUTELY do that and nothing I say can convince them otherwise - but then, they have voted for a guy who said "I prefer people who weren't caught" and they are extreme veteran supporting/cheerleading/advocating. Of all the things that are "not a deal breaker" that one shocked me.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: deepmud on January 30, 2017, 10:01:30 PM
BTW - this is much more educational of a discussion than I'm getting on Facebook - much more intelligent. Thanks.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on January 31, 2017, 12:54:39 AM
God knows.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on January 31, 2017, 08:08:04 AM
I don't think Trump needs a war to get a second term. I thought this would be a one term president at most, and I expected the mid terms to cripple him. But the things he is doing make sense to more than just his base. And the coalition building that's unreported in the press will build support even more. He's working on term two and the midterms right now. I didn't expect that.

My comments about Islam are simply reactions to others statements.  Islam spread the same way Christianity did--by being intolerant of other religious beliefs and using force. That intolerance remains today, both externally and internally. Wahhabism is certainly an extreme and hypocritical sect--you don't need to live in Geneva to see the burkas come off and the Gucci go on. But Sunni jihad is paid for with wahhabi money and dances to their tune.

I think it's critical to the character of America to accept refugees and to make a place for them. A isolated America transforms from a dream to an oppressor. I'm very much in favor of globalism, always have been.  But what I think has nothing to do with what I see unfolding. It definitely is a shit show, but the show is a distraction.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: freetobeme on January 31, 2017, 08:25:45 AM
I think it's critical to the character of America to accept refugees and to make a place for them. A isolated America transforms from a dream to an oppressor. I'm very much in favor of globalism, always have been.  But what I think has nothing to do with what I see unfolding. It definitely is a shit show, but the show is a distraction.

Great statement. Whats your take, beyond coalition building, on what the shit show is attempting to distract the American public from?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on January 31, 2017, 08:45:02 AM
I don't think Trump is creating the distraction with full intent. I think he's doing exactly what he said he'd do to firm up his base and perhaps because he believes it's important. Reading mainstream media you'd think everyone in America is outraged by the immigration ban. Do you think that's so? What percentage of Americans would you guess would consider this action to be wrong? I don't know anyone that doesn't see the action as logical to some degree. Heavy handed perhaps, but not an irrational first step. My guess is that no more than 30 percent thinks it's just categorically wrong. Probably less.  Even people who are traditionally liberal are concerned about importing terrorism and dealing with the cultural upheavals of refugee populations.

I think Europe is going to have massive problems with their minimally vetted refugee populations--and very soon. Those issues will make Trump's action appear even more appropriate. The media completely ignores the logic of the actions, which is silly. The public understands that people involved in attacks have travelled back to "terror countries" for training. Failing to note that rationale leaves a disconnect between what is reported and what people believe.

What about the efforts to restore manufacturing to America? What percentage think shooting NAFTA and the TPP is bad. What percentage think something like that would happen with Democratic leadership.

If Trumps "Wall" rolls back to a much more secure border, more sophisticated monitoring and even more border patrol agents, what percentage of Americans will think it's. bad thing?

He's building popular support far beyond his base, and that worries me. I really wanted to see him gone and certainly marginalized after disastrous midterms. But I don't think that's going to happen. I think the unions are going to support him. I think people are going to see progress on a narrow set of issues and decide he is effective and working in their interest. And I think the end result is an isolated America and a less safe world.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on January 31, 2017, 08:50:40 AM
Don't forget what these people are running from, it was a draught-starvation type situation exacerbated by poor leadership. Anyone deprived of food and clean water and crammed together in cities are going to go looney trying to get what they need, be it to Mohammed or Christ, but strangley enough never Buddha. I think these people are just easy targets for an "us-them" type situation, same as with the Jews in WW2 Germany. It's a shell game to keep us off kilter and divided, the more we fight with each other, the easier it is to make huge changes whatever they may be. Unless I am mistaken, currently there are no military/generals on the NSC, just Bannon running shotgun to Trump, and Trump's close circle running the rest of the show.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUPsports on January 31, 2017, 10:05:58 AM
Everyone on this planet should be praying to whatever big "G" or little "g" God/god(s) that they believe in, that we all won't get to watch the brewing pissing match between Trump and Kim Jong Un unfold and escalate, as our relations with China and other countries around the globe grow colder...

We dodged a bullet with JFK and Bay of Pigs...this scenario could have a different outcome...and, I don't think that wall is designed to keep long range missiles out....holy shmoly...;-)

http://www.dw.com/en/north-korea-restarts-nuclear-reactor-used-to-fuel-weapons-program/a-37311109
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on January 31, 2017, 10:09:43 AM
Yup.  One of the many reasons that I'm in favor of globalism. Alignment of interests.

That nose cone looks like my shaping efforts.

I can't imagine what the radiological controls are inside that building. Probably a death sentance to work in there.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUP Leave on January 31, 2017, 10:15:32 AM

He's building popular support far beyond his base, and that worries me. I really wanted to see him gone and certainly marginalized after disastrous midterms. But I don't think that's going to happen. I think the unions are going to support him. I think people are going to see progress on a narrow set of issues and decide he is effective and working in their interest. And I think the end result is an isolated America and a less safe world.

That's a great post. Trump meeting with and getting praise from the unions is outright theft of a voter base. The left needs to re-group and really pin down what they are trying to achieve. The media isn't helping the left's cause. Blowing each protest and march out of proportion, in an effort to make the viewer feel that they should feel that way too. The problem is the tactic has stopped working. The left needs to start to show some real talent in leadership, and stop with the identity politics. Is there anyone in the D party that can identify what is actually happening and make a difference? It seems they all just want to grandstand, while their voter base silently slides to Trump.

Humans by nature are selfish. Trump understands and is using his populism approach to gain a voter base much faster than anyone thought he would. I'm a (fiscal) conservative by nature and world view, but Trump rarely does something I approve of, but he does just enough to keep me on his side. I'm a small business owner so Taxes, health insurance and Regulations are where my interest lie.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on January 31, 2017, 10:26:16 AM
The regulatory rollback will be huge for small business. Anyone who has ever had to deal with OHSA will be thrilled. Federal regulators, by statute and by training ignore the economic results of their actions and enforce randomly.

Everything I see Trump doing appeals to the self interest of a particular but large group and has nothing to do with some lofty notion of good governance. It's a death blow to the democrats and a kick in the face to republicans. And it's going to work like gangbusters.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on January 31, 2017, 11:38:07 AM

We dodged a bullet with JFK and Bay of Pigs...this scenario could have a different outcome...and, I don't think that wall is designed to keep long range missiles out....holy shmoly...;-)
That's a great reminder.  I'm just finishing an audio book about that:  https://www.amazon.com/Brilliant-Disaster-Castro-Americas-Invasion/dp/1416596534 (https://www.amazon.com/Brilliant-Disaster-Castro-Americas-Invasion/dp/1416596534)

It was scary (along with the Cuban missile crisis shortly after) because it combined a comedy of errors with deadly consequences if it hadn't been diffused.  Also heartening, in that the world survived it despite the ineptitude all around.  It also occurred early in JFK's term, when his inexperience and problems with how he'd set up the day-to-day workings of his administration contributed to the failures, so relevant to today.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 31, 2017, 01:40:10 PM
And there goes the national parks, didn't really need those anyways. Maybe when they're building a golf cours, and shut down your beach access, you guys will realize what kind of thug you put in the white house. Can't afford the national parks but here's a great new wall. Also happy Holocaust Rememberance Day!

https://medium.com/@wilderness/new-bill-would-sell-off-3-million-acres-of-public-lands-9593763ac893#.bxhx744l0

When you sensationalize headlines that aren't even close to what is happening you make your argument...and any other arguments you make less credible. How is that not fake news by the way? The national parks aren't being sold off to the highest bidder. It doesn't even say that in the article. The feds own 640 million acres....so the proposal is to sell less than 1/2%. Do you think the national parks are included in that %? I haven't read the details of the bill but I doubt it. And I'm pretty sure that a lot of folks out west feel the feds are poor stewards even beyond restricting access. It's obviously become a big issue for folks out there where they feel the feds have overreached.

I'm not excited by what Trump means for the environment but sensationalizing has backfired badly for the left.....time to be reasonable.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on January 31, 2017, 02:13:20 PM
Quote from: stoneaxe

When you sensationalize headlines that aren't even close to what is happening you make your argument...and any other arguments you make less credible. How is that not fake news by the way?

I'm not excited by what Trump means for the environment but sensationalizing has backfired badly for the left.....time to be reasonable.
Maybe when you guys start owning that you put a white supremacist and a game show host who won't release his taxes in the white house without any supervision, then I'll change my communication style. Until then I'll express myself anyway I want.

If this was a Romney or Kasich we wouldn't be having this conversation. You guys made a deal with the devil and you better be ready to own that shit if this goes off the tracks.

Also that post is a few days old, read faster cupcake!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on January 31, 2017, 03:33:15 PM
Pretty sure Bob was referring to the link, not to your comments. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on January 31, 2017, 03:58:50 PM
If that's the case, my reading skills apparently are starting to fail me, and I will agree that the media needs to stop sensationalizing headlines.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jan/31/public-lands-sell-congress-bureau-management-chaffetz

Still I think it sets a bad precedent that these places can be sold off. Mismanaged can be tweaked, but private is pretty much forever.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 31, 2017, 04:26:33 PM
Pretty sure Bob was referring to the link, not to your comments.
No i was referring to the post with hysterical headlines. Love the unnecessary cupcake addition too....like the fact that I missed a post previously matters to the discussion..... ::)

I'm not a trump supporter. But I think even maybe even more dangerous to the republic is the bullshit we see coming out of the media and when people like you add on by posting hyped headlines you do damage to real issues. Not that you will convince any right wing nutcases but well thought arguments with headlines that are real will do more to further your cause than bullshit that causes people to ignore you. As it is with the hyped headlines I simply assume you are just blowing more smoke. You've made some great posts with interesting perspective...no need for you to take the easy road with sensationalized headlines.

By the way...i agree with your perspective on the issue...... ??? :P


Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on January 31, 2017, 05:20:45 PM
Will avoid the high pitched squealing and try harder in the future. This political speak is fairly new to me, so I'm afraid I'm playing catch up. Thank you for the feedback, both positive and constructive.  ;) 
I also just feel strongly about the access issue. I used to guide and spent a lot of time in some amazing places, would hate to see that type of experience nickeled and dimed away by bureaucrats.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: surfafrica on January 31, 2017, 07:16:23 PM
On Sunday night, tragedy struck in Quebec.  A Canadian university student killed 6 Muslim Canadian men praying in a mosque. 

On Monday, Sean Spicer referred to the shooting at his daily briefing: "It's a terrible reminder of why we must remain vigilant. And why the president is taking steps to be proactive, not reactive."  This seems a bit like reverse logic to me. Why would this tragedy of student radicalized to the far right killing 6 Muslim Canadians support a ban of refugees?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the past 40 years, no Americans have been killed in America by refugees from the countries the Trump administration has banned. Maybe the Trump administration should ban white university students from Canada from entering the country--that group might pose a threat.

As well on Monday afternoon, Fox News tweeted: "Suspect in Quebec mosque terror attack was of Moroccan origin, reports show."  <-- this is not true.  There was a Moroccan man who was a witness and this information was made public before Fox News made their report.  Even if it was an honest timing issue on Fox's part, by late Tuesday, they still had not corrected their statement.

There are a lot of opinions flying around about the Trump administration's ban of refugees.  I'm of the strong opinion that it breeds more hate around the world, will not save lives on American soil and only will stoke the fire for ISIS recruitment.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on January 31, 2017, 07:38:51 PM
Of course it's totally ineffective. It's guarding against something that hasn't happened to any significant degree. About 2900 Americans were killed in 911. About 50 Americans have been killed in terror attacks in the US since 2001. Hasn't happened doesn't mean won't happen, but it seems like a pretty low risk so far. 50 people in 16 years is in the same magnitude as shark attacks and is equally sensational. You have to wander very far down the threat ladder to find something similar to worry about.

Terrorist attacks are a lot more common in Western Europe, but the sources of most attacks and deaths are not jihad, it's separatists:

(http://www.datagraver.com/thumbs/1000x1000r/2016-07/ep2016-2.png)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on January 31, 2017, 08:14:08 PM
I looked at Facebook for the first time in about a week. Talk about a shitshow. My favorite was a guy posting about Jihadists and their holly war.

Of course he misspelled Jihad also, as well as about 60 percent of the words in his rant.

It's gonna be a long four years.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: surfafrica on January 31, 2017, 08:15:12 PM
About 2900 Americans were killed in 911. About 50 Americans have been killed in terror attacks in the US since 2001. Hasn't happened doesn't mean won't happen, but it seems like a pretty low risk so far. 50 people in 16 years is in the same magnitude as shark attacks and is equally sensational. You have to wander very far down the threat ladder to find something similar to worry about.

Of these (911 and the additional attacks since 2001), none were by refugees from the banned countries.  <--that is correct, right? 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on January 31, 2017, 09:20:34 PM
I looked at Facebook for the first time in about a week. Talk about a shitshow. My favorite was a guy posting about Jihadists and their holly war.

Of course he misspelled Jihad also, as well as about 60 percent of the words in his rant.

It's gonna be a long four years.
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/026/479/morans.jpg)

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on January 31, 2017, 09:29:14 PM
I'm surprised he spelled USA correctly.....
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on January 31, 2017, 10:02:15 PM


Here is an opinion piece that represent some of my concerns:

"Yes, Donald Trump’s politics are incoherent. But those who surround him know just what they want, and his lack of clarity enhances their power."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/30/donald-trump-george-monbiot-misinformation

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: novaboy on February 01, 2017, 01:52:51 AM
About 2900 Americans were killed in 911. About 50 Americans have been killed in terror attacks in the US since 2001. Hasn't happened doesn't mean won't happen, but it seems like a pretty low risk so far. 50 people in 16 years is in the same magnitude as shark attacks and is equally sensational. You have to wander very far down the threat ladder to find something similar to worry about.

Of these (911 and the additional attacks since 2001), none were by refugees from the banned countries.  <--that is correct, right?

All of the 9/11 attackers were from Saudi, UAE, Lebanon and Egypt I believe. Countries not on the banned list.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on February 01, 2017, 09:42:54 AM
The ban on refugees will do nothing to make the US safer. If you look at how refugees get into the US today, you'll see that they are extremely vetted. First, refugees do not have a choice on which country they will arrive in, it is a lottery. Next, the process take form 18 to 24 months, minimum. Throughout those two years, they have many personal interviews with various US security agencies, CIA, FBI, Homeland Security, etc.

here's some food for thought:

From a Boston College professor of American History, Heather Cox Richardson, about Trump's latest refugee "shock event":
“I don't like to talk about politics on Facebook—political history is my job, after all, and you are my friends—but there is an important non-partisan point to make today.
.
What Bannon is doing, most dramatically with last night's ban on immigration from seven predominantly Muslim countries—is creating what is known as a "shock event." Such an event is unexpected and confusing and throws a society into chaos. People scramble to react to the event, usually along some fault line that those responsible for the event can widen by claiming that they alone know how to restore order. When opponents speak out, the authors of the shock event call them enemies. As society reels and tempers run high, those responsible for the shock event perform a sleight of hand to achieve their real goal, a goal they know to be hugely unpopular, but from which everyone has been distracted as they fight over the initial event. There is no longer concerted opposition to the real goal; opposition divides along the partisan lines established by the shock event.
.
Last night's Executive Order has all the hallmarks of a shock event. It was not reviewed by any governmental agencies or lawyers before it was released, and counterterrorism experts insist they did not ask for it. People charged with enforcing it got no instructions about how to do so. Courts immediately have declared parts of it unconstitutional, but border police in some airports are refusing to stop enforcing it.


 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 01, 2017, 10:28:44 AM
In this case Tom, I think it's important to have the rest of Dr. Richardson's quote:

"....but border police in some airports are refusing to stop enforcing it.

Predictably, chaos has followed and tempers are hot.

My point today is this: unless you are the person setting it up, it is in no one’s interest to play the shock event game. It is designed explicitly to divide people who might otherwise come together so they cannot stand against something its authors think they won’t like. I don’t know what Bannon is up to– although I have some guesses– but because I know Bannon’s ideas well, I am positive that there is not a single person whom I consider a friend on either side of the aisle– and my friends range pretty widely– who will benefit from whatever it is. If the shock event strategy works, though, many of you will blame each other, rather than Bannon, for the fallout. And the country will have been tricked into accepting their real goal.

But because shock events destabilize a society, they can also be used positively. We do not have to respond along old fault lines. We could just as easily reorganize into a different pattern that threatens the people who sparked the event. A successful shock event depends on speed and chaos because it requires knee-jerk reactions so that people divide along established lines. This, for example, is how Confederate leaders railroaded the initial southern states out of the Union. If people realize they are being played, though, they can reach across old lines and reorganize to challenge the leaders who are pulling the strings. This was Lincoln’s strategy when he joined together Whigs, Democrats, Free-Soilers, anti-Nebraska voters, and nativists into the new Republican Party to stand against the Slave Power. Five years before, such a coalition would have been unimaginable. Members of those groups agreed on very little other than that they wanted all Americans to have equal economic opportunity. Once they began to work together to promote a fair economic system, though, they found much common ground. They ended up rededicating the nation to a “government of the people, by the people, and for the people.”

Confederate leaders and Lincoln both knew about the political potential of a shock event. As we are in the midst of one, it seems worth noting that Lincoln seemed to have the better idea about how to use it."


Oh, and don't forget to buy her book, To Make Men Free: A History of the Republican Party.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 01, 2017, 11:26:36 AM


In other news...yet more hollowing out of the democracy...so after two of Trumps candidates perjured themselves the GOP changes rules so senate democrats do not get to participate in the process, with Trumps engouragement..

For anyone who hasn't been paying attention, Price and Mnuchin perjured themselves and refused to present themselves to the committee to explain.
The Democrats refused to vote until they presented themselves to explain.
They didn't, so apparently, the GOP changed the rules so they could approve the nominees anyway without the Dems even present.
This is the letter the Dems on the Finance Committee sent to Orrin Hatch, asking for more answers from Price and Mnuchin about their false testimony. Orrin Hatch ignored it and changed the rules to rubberstamp them.

If you voted for trump and the GOP and this shit doesn't make you re-think your choices.....
 
https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/020117%20FinanceDemlettertoChairmanHatch%20on%20nominations.pdf

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 01, 2017, 11:32:43 AM
Well...there you go again.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: surfafrica on February 01, 2017, 12:07:17 PM
If you voted for trump and the GOP and this shit doesn't make you re-think your choices.....

I'm genuinely curious about that.  I know those who didn't support Trump haven't changed their minds since the election to suddenly support him.  I also know there are a lot of people who bought in to Trump's rhetoric during the campaign and are probably psyched to see him pulling the trigger on his promises.  But is there a significant group of people who voted for Trump and are now thinking "oh shit...what have we done"?  If yes, is there any movement to speak out or challenge what is going on from that group, whether that be republicans in gov't or general citizens (meaning are any of that group of citizens starting to show up at demonstrations saying "I changed my mind")? 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 01, 2017, 12:08:57 PM

How about this then..direct quotes from Bannon:

In remarks to a 2014 conference at the Vatican, Bannon warned his Christian audience, “We’re at the very beginning stages of a very brutal and bloody conflict.”
“We are in an outright war against jihadists, Islam, Islamic fascism,” Bannon continued. He likewise condemned “the immense secularization of the West” and the increasing secularism among millennials.
Bannon stressed that “the people in this room, and the people in the Church” must “bind together and really form what I feel is an aspect of the Church militant, to really be able to not just stand with our beliefs but to fight for our beliefs against this new barbarity that’s starting that will literally eradicate everything that we’ve been bequeathed over the last 2,000 and 2,500 years.”
In his speech, Bannon articulated a view of the world as a constant conflict between the capitalist “Judeo-Christian West,” which is a benevolent force of “enlightenment,” and the malevolent forces of socialism, atheism, and Islam.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-steve-bannon-china-south-sea-war-chinese-us-president-special-counsellor-a7556546.html
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUP Leave on February 01, 2017, 03:07:34 PM
If you voted for trump and the GOP and this shit doesn't make you re-think your choices.....

I'm genuinely curious about that.  I know those who didn't support Trump haven't changed their minds since the election to suddenly support him.  I also know there are a lot of people who bought in to Trump's rhetoric during the campaign and are probably psyched to see him pulling the trigger on his promises.  But is there a significant group of people who voted for Trump and are now thinking "oh shit...what have we done"?  If yes, is there any movement to speak out or challenge what is going on from that group, whether that be republicans in gov't or general citizens (meaning are any of that group of citizens starting to show up at demonstrations saying "I changed my mind")?

It is an interesting question, but I think it is too early yet. You have to remember who voted for Trump. In the media's (coastal elites, hollywood's, etcs) eyes he was voted for by a bunch of inbred racists with confederate flags on the wall and Copenhagen rings in their back pocket. The reality is that most of the people who voted for him, voted based on their own personal economic situation. In that vein:

- Reduction in regulations
- Reduction in taxes
- Meetings with labor unions
- TPP and NAFTA
- Dodd Frank


There is plenty of time to regret the decision, but there needs to be a result first (crippled economy, loss of jobs, environmental degradation, troops killed, loss of an ally). All we have so far is noise. The media is way too fatalistic about this stuff (IMO). The reality is that the American Republic has withstood way worse than a temporary ham-handed ban on refugees (there is 1.5 billion other Muslims outside the black balled 7 countries  that are free to get in here) and a wild card adviser (Bannon). Should Trump screw up, he can only do it for 4 years, and he will lose his majority (teeth) in 2.

Give me something tangible, and I can regret my choice about the vote.

I would like to have seen Mnuchin get axed. Betsy DeVoss may not get confirmed either. Sounds like Maine and AK senators may vote "no" on her confirmation. Both of which would be fine by me. I have largely liked his cabinet and SC nom.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: surfafrica on February 01, 2017, 04:16:34 PM

It is an interesting question, but I think it is too early yet. You have to remember who voted for Trump. In the media's (coastal elites, hollywood's, etcs) eyes he was voted for by a bunch of inbred racists with confederate flags on the wall and Copenhagen rings in their back pocket. The reality is that most of the people who voted for him, voted based on their own personal economic situation. In that vein:

- Reduction in regulations
- Reduction in taxes
- Meetings with labor unions
- TPP and NAFTA
- Dodd Frank

There is plenty of time to regret the decision, but there needs to be a result first (crippled economy, loss of jobs, environmental degradation, troops killed, loss of an ally). All we have so far is noise. The media is way too fatalistic about this stuff (IMO). The reality is that the American Republic has withstood way worse than a temporary ham-handed ban on refugees (there is 1.5 billion other Muslims outside the black balled 7 countries  that are free to get in here) and a wild card adviser (Bannon). Should Trump screw up, he can only do it for 4 years, and he will lose his majority (teeth) in 2.

Give me something tangible, and I can regret my choice about the vote.

That's interesting. 

It's the fact that a lot of regular Americans did vote for him that has me wondering about this. This stuff going on right now is not benign. How much are his supporters willing to look past as they wait for these tangible results? 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on February 01, 2017, 06:42:23 PM
Drilling in the parks.
https://www.outdoorresearch.com/blog/stories/join-us-call-now-to-stop-drilling-in-national-parks?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=FB+join+us+call+now+to+stop+drilling+in+national+parks&utm_source=Facebook
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 02, 2017, 12:05:37 AM


Here you go: "Facism Forever" founder and leader is the nominee for supreme court justice. No wonder Bannon liked him.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4182852/Trump-s-SCOTUS-pick-founded-club-called-Fascism-Forever.html

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: comeu on February 02, 2017, 06:05:52 AM
Feeling sick since seeing some people here support torture. Nothing else to say. You make me sick.
Thank you A10, Yugi and others to respond.
Peace and SURF


Envoyé de mon iPad en utilisant Tapatalk
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 02, 2017, 06:16:16 AM
Watch these testimonials for a better understanding of the dynamics of international order and the threats being faced.

The State of the World: National Security Threats and Challenges
http://youtu.be/7XmNbxAZyXw?t=11m58s
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 02, 2017, 08:10:21 AM
Watch these testimonials for a better understanding of the dynamics of international order and the threats being faced.

The State of the World: National Security Threats and Challenges
http://youtu.be/7XmNbxAZyXw?t=11m58s

In this video, General Petraeus says the following. It is worth reading carefully:

"The defeat is Islamic extremist groups does of course require a vital military component. But even if we succeed militarily, and metaphorically putting a stake through the heart of Daesh elements in Iraq and Syria, as I believe we will, that success will be fleeting unless the underlying conflicts in those countries and the greater Middle East that enabled ISIL's rise are addressed and resolved. We must also recognise that the long-term success in this conflict requires that the ideology of Islamic extremist (sic) is itself discredited. And contending with the ideological caliphate in cyberspace may well prove more challenging than taking away the rest of what is a shrinking physical caliphate on the ground in Iraq and Syria.

Here I should note that our most important ally in this war is the overwhelming majority of Muslims who reject Al Queda, Daesh and their fanatical, barbaric world view. Indeed, it is millions of Muslims who are fighting and dying in the greatest numbers in the front-lines of this war, including Arab and Kurdish fighters bravely battling ISIL in Mosul, Gulf and Arab forces taking the fight to AQAP in Yemen, Afghans courageously struggling against a resurgent Taliban in a nascent Islamic state affiliate, Somali forces confronting Al Shabaab, and the Libyan elements that recently drove another Islamic State entity from the enclave it had seized on the North African coast.

We must also remember that Islamic extremists want to portray this fight as a clash of civilisations with America at war with Islam. We must not let them do that. Indeed, we must be very sensitive to actions that might give them ammunition in such an effort".

The problems with some of the opinions being expressed here on this forum in respect of the Islamic faith is that several of them appear to risk being grossly offensive to our Muslim allies in this battle who General Petraeus rightly praises. Moreover, the stereotyping of Muslims and the Islamic faith in terms of the worst events in the histories of predominately Islamic countries is grossly unfair, and would be like characterising the population of the US (or Christians in general) as murderous savages based on events such as the Biscari massacre of WWII or the Wisconsin Sikh Temple massacre in 2012. The casual dismissal of the opinions of a well-respected Islamic scholar who points out the incontrovertible meeting points between Islam and Christianity is similarly divisive.

The "war" with Islamic extremism will be one of winning hearts and minds more than taking land. Surely, the way to win hearts and minds is to show a better way, not match barbarity and stereotyping with more of the same as the "fight fire with fire" policy proposes? One of the reasons that Christianity has been so successful IMO is the principle of "turning the other cheek". This is perhaps the most difficult of Jesus's teachings for people to get their head around. But IMO basically it boils down to: "be better than that". And in this context, turning the other cheek may refer to still keeping our doors open to refugees fleeing the murderous intent of our enemies, even though doing so may carry a minuscule increased risk to ourselves. Taking in refugees is likely to be just as effective a strategy - perhaps more so - in the overall battle against this religious fanaticism as drooping bombs is.

But you don't need lofty moral goals to follow this path: This approach is in our own long-term self-interest because every person from war-torn areas who feels gratitude towards their new home is another soldier on our side, and is likely an informed one who can spread our message back home, supply us with information, and build bridges between our culture and theirs.

So I see expressing rude or thoughtless opinions about our allies through e.g. stereotyping, as unpatriotic. It undermines the security of our forces abroad who are risking their lives for our freedom and safety by chiselling away at support for their friends who are fighting alongside them.

For this reason, I would ask we please try to be careful in the way we express our opinions here. Not doing so I suspect plays straight into the hands of our enemies. Being diplomatic and tactful isn't the same as being weak and ineffective. Quite the contrary: Sometimes it's the smartest way to win.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on February 02, 2017, 08:48:50 AM
Goop post A10
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: GOTWAVZ on February 02, 2017, 09:09:46 AM
This just in!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 02, 2017, 10:07:52 AM
From your lips to God's ears!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: beached on February 02, 2017, 10:47:04 AM
it's amazing what intolerant whiners comprise the left. i hated Obama from day 1, but I also thought 'give the guy a chance, see what he does'. i did, and it was horrific.  i lived, and so will you. but the vitriol coming from you guys is sad.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 02, 2017, 11:57:18 AM
Is it simply standard practice on the left to scream that others are deflecting...while they deflect? Bill wasn't dismissing a scholars work on the connection between Christianity and Islam....he was dismissing your interpretation of what it means. You used this to show how tolerant Islam is.....you do realize that he has also written about his concern that Christianity is now being forced out...or do you only bring up what agrees with your argument?

Deflection is also not bothering to respond to an argument by just flinging more shit. I noticed no response to the FACT that a very popular democrat president (Bill) gave a speech 30 years ago and received non-partisan support for being tough on illegal immigration...very, very, Trump like. But now there is outcry from the same press that loved Clinton's ideas.....do you guys even know how to spell it....it's  h.y.p.o.c.r.i.s.y. And taut...in regards to that argument...the bullshit comment stands. How can it not when it's in black and white. Complain about Trump's delivery, his coarseness, whatever....but the purpose of the message is the same and the left is acting like the sky is falling. How are you not being fed bullshit?

I agree with much of what you guys are saying. I've despised Trump for what he is long before he entered the race. There is plenty to be concerned about. The saddest thing....all we had to pick from was Clinton or Trump. I'm pretty sure we can survive him and I hope in the process the pendulum gets pushed back to the middle. It's that simple. you guys had 8 years of pushing it to the left.....now it's the rights turn. I don't have a problem with the left pushing back...that's the way it's supposed to be but lets get real and stop complaining about Trump using the same kind of tactics the Dems have for years. It's absolutely laughable that the left now insists on transparency. What a fucking joke that is.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 02, 2017, 01:19:11 PM

Again you choose to mention shit that is not the case. Is Clinton president? I'm not sure if you get it, but I am not a democrat. I just have an extremely low tolerance for incompetence...I like skills and people that are good at what they do, I appreciate knowledge and science. Pretty agnostic to party...as long as religion is not the driving force behind your policy...

I have never defended Clinton or Obama when it comes to immigration. In fact the left has traditionally been the ones that tries to strengthen workers in the US (I like free markets)...Obama deported more Mexicans than most other presidents, while Bush almost got through a plan to let illegal workers stay, one of the really good initiatives I think Bush had. I am not complaining about deportation of illegal immigrants, I am, however, against random acts of policy...and I am definitely against the bullshit that is going on now.

What I find incredibly disheartening is how we talk about people who have experienced with worst horrors humans can experience and there is not even an ounce of sympathy. I used to work with refugees, and the stories are absolutely insane. The ban simply led to chaos and it is not functioning in its intended way.

There is a radical difference between due process and something that ends up banning friendly fighter pilots from landing on US airports. Or that ends up giving eks prime minister from Norway trouble because there was a stamp from Iran...in his DIPLOMATIC passport.

I know H Clinton voted for Bush fence....and I think Obama did too...but we have since learned that a fence is meaningless and just impacts unintended parties (like land owners and wildlife). Why not take a lesson from that instead of spending $30-100B? 

You will see more and more reports about Trump and his staff's incompetence because they do not plan and they execute off the cuff. It impacts people lives in so many bad ways.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 02, 2017, 01:31:43 PM
In the same vein, I consider the notion that Christians have some superior moral compass in turning the other cheek to be absurd. I don't disagree with General Patereus' views on warfighting or the role of Muslims in opposing radical elements. But 2000 years of Christian violence and intolerance is equally telling, though in recent history it's been substantially quelled. Very recent. Pope Pius XI and XII didn't exactly distinguish themselves during the rise of fascism, Nazism and  anti-semitism in the 1930's.

Christianity is idolatrous worship of a human to any Muslim. Islam is denial of the Trinity to any Christian. There's not a lot of slack there. And as for the significance of Jesus as a prophet to Muslims, consider that Christians, Jews, and Muslims are all theoretically the Children of Abraham--and they don't like each other much.

Religious scholars say all kinds of things that sound mollifying but are essentially meaningless since the core tenets of the religions are in conflict.

What all this has to do with the shitshow is becoming a bit tenuous. Trump's ban was nonsense when he signed it, it's still nonsense.

As I said before, I think it is critical to the nature of the USA to accept refugees and immigrants. And no, I don't see a significant danger in doing so. The far greater danger is completely surrendering any notion of the USA as a country with a moral purpose--for at least as long as Bozo is in office.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: DavidJohn on February 02, 2017, 02:43:45 PM
http://www.seabreeze.com.au/Exit?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fnews%2Farticle-4180508%2FPIERS-MORGAN-Trump-s-no-monster-s-not-mad-either.html
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 02, 2017, 07:14:48 PM
I think we are far closer than we seem taut. I'm no republican. The refugee issue has been handled terrible...as have others...plenty of incompetence for sure. Truthfully though I'd rather an incompetent Trump than a competent Clinton. My core belief is that the system needed change. Trump is a catalyst to me. He is unfortunately a catalyst with some nasty side effects. But if we don't get torn apart in the process I think we can come out better on the other side.....tough to see that now but you already hear some of  democrat power brokers saying they need to pay more attention to the concerns of those that voted for Trump. I want compromise solutions to complex problems not someones ideology shoved down my throat....like the idea that I'm a racist because I'm very much against illegal immigration. Above all else....I'm hoping the disgust that everyone felt for either Clinton or Trump (take your pick since both are deserving) will cause all of us to be more thoughtful in who we choose in the primary. I've said it before...i would have voted for Bernie over either of them on character alone. He wouldn't have shaken things up as much but until Bernie had to pivot some to try for the latino vote he wasn't too far off on my feelings on immigration and globalization and at least I wouldn't be ashamed we have Trump for president.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on February 02, 2017, 07:31:22 PM
all these years later....
this can be tolerated.....endlessly and with many other examples....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lukBfKi88Vc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY3FAavrn0s

but these seem to stir something else up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U56q428amN0

I would have to say...there is a difference in the presentation of the two. The later does seem....I might have to say downright mean spirited and basically taunting (so much so I really don't see the humor in them where I find the first pretty funny. is it the translation? I don't think so) but I don't think that really changes it as I am certain I can find far more brutal examples of the first in the same vein as the later and I am sure some out there would find these examples already here in the first just as brutal as someone may find in the later.

There is a difference in the paths of the two over the years and where we are now and the world is such a mess there is reasoning in this.

Watch these testimonials for a better understanding of the dynamics of international order and the threats being faced.

The State of the World: National Security Threats and Challenges
http://youtu.be/7XmNbxAZyXw?t=11m58s

In this video, General Petraeus says the following. It is worth reading carefully:
".......We must also remember that Islamic extremists want to portray this fight as a clash of civilisations with America at war with Islam. We must not let them do that. Indeed, we must be very sensitive to actions that might give them ammunition in such an effort".


politics and religion........sheesh
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 03, 2017, 12:26:52 AM
Trump is not my president but, as a citizen of this world, his actions do affect me in two areas: working for peace and respecting the environment.

In "The State of the World: National Security Threats and Challenges"
   http://youtu.be/7XmNbxAZyXw?t=11m58s   
General Petraeus opens with how the US lead to establish a system of global alliances and a foundation for prosperity. “This is the world America made”. For that, US allies are grateful.

Among fears discussed by General Petraeus and John McLaughlin are China’s aggressive trade (and military) moves to check US influence and dominate Asia, and specifically mentions Australia if the US does not stay heavily engaged.
   https://youtu.be/7XmNbxAZyXw?t=36m28s
   
Did anyone notice, the same day BTW, Trump outdoing himself by hanging up on the Australian prime minister?

Sorry, but what an idiot.

From  https://psychpedia.blogspot.ch/2017/02/trump-hung-up-on-world-leader.html

Trump hung up on a world leader. A psychologist says we should be worried

“Trump acts like a child who hasn’t yet developed enough to consider anyone else’s opinion”

There are few situations where hanging up on someone mid-phone call is considered acceptable, least of all an important call between two national leaders.

And yet that is reportedly what Donald Trump did just 25 minutes into what was meant to be an hour-long conversation with Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull.

According to the Washington Post, the US President abruptly ended the call with Turnbull over his demand that the US honour the refugee deal agreed with former President Barack Obama.

Trump apparently subjected Turnbull to a torrent of vitriol (which the world has seen many a time on Twitter), became exasperated and started yelling, before terminating the conversation.

It is behaviour largely associated with stroppy teenagers who can’t deal with not getting their way, but does acting like this suggest yet another worrying red flag when it comes to the new POTUS?

Behavioural and celebrity psychologist Jo Hemmings believes Trump’s behaviour on the phone is another large indicator of his malignant narcissism.

“He has a messiah complex, no conscience, and lacks complete empathy,” she told The Independent, adding that hanging up the phone is “just like a child having a tantrum.”

According to Hemmings, most people grow out of this behaviour by the age of three or four, although there’s sometimes a reappearance during adolescence due to hormones.

“Trump acts like a child who hasn’t yet developed enough to consider anyone else’s opinion,” Hemmings says.

She believes that the President’s behaviour further suggests he’s never wanted for anything in his life or had to modify his behaviour, which has fueled his narcissism.

“Trump is clearly used to getting his own way and is very hot-headed,” she says. “He won’t see things from anyone else’s perspective and gets very annoyed when challenged.”

The President’s malignant narcissism results in a desperate need and entitlement for power, according to Hemmings, and she says Trump is likely to see no point in continuing a conversation after someone disagrees with him because he’s “massively bloody-minded.”

But as we have already seen, not all the world leaders will play his game and Trump will fall out with anyone who doesn’t agree with him, which is likely to lead to problems down the line.

“Trump thinks he’s invincible,” says Hemmings, who doubts whether his advisors will ever question or criticise him.
“Usually leaders choose the people around them to keep them in check, and Trump needs people to temper his hotheadedness and aggression. Instead, he’s picked advisors who worship him.”

It remains to be seen how other leaders will react.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: DavidJohn on February 03, 2017, 03:01:43 AM
I heard that when Trumpy hung up on our PM our PM kept talking to make it look like he didn't get hung up on.. So funny..  ;D
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 03, 2017, 06:12:03 AM
DJ - I think your PM has just gone up the rest of the world's leaders' estimations.

The UK's Prime Minister seems to be floundering today in a meeting with Europe's leaders, where she is trying to sell the UK as a bridge between the US and Europe. Many of the EU leaders seem to feel that Trump would like nothing better than if the European Union collapsed, so they are not too concerned about building bridges right now.

Some of my US scientist colleagues were set to have an international conference in October this year. But concerns over Trump's policies towards foreigners means that they have now relocated the conference to the Netherlands.

I guess that a common enemy can unite different groups of people. Unintended consequences... when you push very hard in one direction you can't be sure how the pieces are going to fall.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: freetobeme on February 03, 2017, 06:18:25 AM
http://www.npr.org/2017/02/02/513126985/house-votes-to-overturn-obama-rule-restricting-gun-sales-to-mentally-ill

Its all making sense now...guns in the hands of the disturbed and polluted waterways. Im not sure which I despise more Big Pharma, Big Oil or the NRA.

Im all for individual liberties but cmon. 

And then this - https://www.boston.com/news/politics/2017/02/03/ap-fact-check-conway-cites-massacre-that-didnt-happen

Bowling Green Massacre??

Yup, the term shitsow does work here.

Can anyone expound on this??  http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/02/03/donald-trump-plans-to-undo-dodd-frank-law-fiduciary-rule.html
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on February 03, 2017, 07:19:16 AM
Dodd Frank? There is a lot of   short   term   money   to   be   made   before  the  economy  collapses .
Follow  the  money 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 03, 2017, 08:02:08 AM
Dodd-Frank needs some work, but I certainly hope they don't toss the baby out with the bathwater. It's a hell of a burden, beyond it's necessary elements.

Ditching fiduciary responsibility regulations means the administration is firmly in the pocket of Wall Street. The "more choices" nonsense is the mantra they used to try to fight the department of Labor regs.

From the book I'm writing on retirement:

There has been talk about reforming the financial industry and requiring greater fiduciary responsibility (meaning a legal duty to act solely in your interests). So far the effort has produced more noise than results. If you had any notion that congress is not bought and paid for, read the sleazy bill sponsored by Rep. Ann Wagner of Missouri that aimed at stopping the Department of Labor from moving forward on its rule to amend the definition of "fiduciary" for retirement advice. Wagner’s bill, in blatant newspeak titled the Retail Investor Protection Act, passed in the house, but apparently died in committee in the senate after President Obama threatened veto.  the Department of Labor wrote a new rule defining and regulating fiduciary responsibility, but it does not take effect until mid-2017. I listened to Ann Wagner's speech about the bill. What a lying liar--she just about made me puke. But even if the Department of Labor ruling stands under the new administration, there's no guarantee that the advice you are given will be effective, worthwhile, or honest.

Kind of odd quoting myself, but it's handy and I know the source.

The estimate for the cost to Americans saving for retirement of the inflated fees and self-serving financial "advice" is $17 billion per year. I think that's conservative.

Wall street and the banks are essentially saying that if they have to put the interests of investors first, that they won't be able to provide services. Let that sink in for a moment.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: all~wet on February 03, 2017, 08:17:58 AM
Yup Pono, agreed. And my fear is that while folks are going ballistic/quibbling over semantics like is it a ban or vetting, the crowd size at the inauguration, Trump's flippant ratings comments at a prayer breakfast, his adolescent tweets- he and his WallSt.,BigOil-centric cabinet will be doing everything they can to completely untether themselves from any oversight/accountability.  Was 2008 really so long ago that we forget?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 03, 2017, 09:04:17 AM
I heard that when Trumpy hung up on our PM our PM kept talking to make it look like he didn't get hung up on.. So funny..  ;D

Well, with an approval rating south of 35% what's a PM to do... ;D

I may not agree with most of Turnbull's liberal views, but he certainly is a class act.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on February 03, 2017, 09:05:44 AM
Whatever side you're on, this shouldn't stand. I don't see clean water as "excessive regulations."
http://time.com/4658794/congress-coal-debris-streams-approval/
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: all~wet on February 03, 2017, 09:13:31 AM
Not that good stewardship of our resources/environment is an aside but... on top of "That"......... hanging on to archaic technology/energy like coal in the name of "jobs" is completely misguided. Will absolutely cripple the economy, put our nation at a huge disadvantage. An educated workforce and modern, efficient infrastructure are everything to the economy- jobssssssssseseses.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 03, 2017, 09:23:37 AM
... 2008 really so long ago that we forget?

apparently

The derivatives that caused the 2008 crash were just fantastically ridiculous. I'm an engineer and I work in systems for financial services. My job is to understand what business does and help them with systems (like risk management). In other words my job is to ask questions. I'm the kind of guy who is not afraid to say when I don't understand something. That industry sector is filled with egomaniacs who's greatest skill is to pretend they know stuff. Most of my questions were met with outrage. When the crash happened it answered all my [unanswered] questions. I wasn't surprised in a bit. There is a film which is close to my experience.

My biggest surprise was where was the oversight. How could that have been allowed?

It’s a fine line between having enough regulations to stop criminal activity and too much which is a hassle. No doubt.

Does a guy like Trump, the people who paid to put him in power, the cabinet he is putting in power, or his advisors have your best interests in mind? Or do they have a solid track record, and psychological makeup, of making the most for the themselves and the rest be damned?

You decide.
(get smart now, there is a clear pattern to recognise in there)

Either way. Any change to the rules will imply that systems change yet again and that is always a heavy burden and expense.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 03, 2017, 09:35:35 AM
Wall street and the banks are essentially saying that if they have to put the interests of investors first, that they won't be able to provide services. Let that sink in for a moment.

First thing I thought of when I heard it....like they don't make enough $ now?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 03, 2017, 10:00:59 AM
^ it's been a bit damped since dodd-franck
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on February 03, 2017, 10:37:03 AM
I heard that when Trumpy hung up on our PM our PM kept talking to make it look like he didn't get hung up on.. So funny..  ;D

Well, with an approval rating south of 35% what's a PM to do... ;D

I may not agree with most of Turnbull's liberal views, but he certainly is a class act.
I heard Trump was in a bad mood when he called Australia because he resented having to talk to the country that Arnold Schwarzenegger came from.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Night Wing on February 03, 2017, 10:48:10 AM
I heard Trump was in a bad mood when he called Australia because he resented having to talk to the country that Arnold Schwarzenegger came from.

Arnold Schwarzenegger is not from Australia. Arnold was born in, wait for it..............."Austria". You need to brush up on your geography.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 03, 2017, 10:52:12 AM
Yea, someone needs a geology lesson for sure! ;D
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: freetobeme on February 03, 2017, 10:54:49 AM
I heard that when Trumpy hung up on our PM our PM kept talking to make it look like he didn't get hung up on.. So funny..  ;D

Well, with an approval rating south of 35% what's a PM to do... ;D

I may not agree with most of Turnbull's liberal views, but he certainly is a class act.
I heard Trump was in a bad mood when he called Australia because he resented having to talk to the country that Arnold Schwarzenegger came from.

Haha. I can imagine Trump saying such a thing.

Pence: "Um, Donald. Actually Arnold is from Austria."
Trump: "Some say Austria some say Australia, I'm right they're WRONG. Enough said. It's true. Next."

#birther2.0
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 03, 2017, 12:01:36 PM
I heard Trump was in a bad mood when he called Australia because he resented having to talk to the country that Arnold Schwarzenegger came from.

Arnold Schwarzenegger is not from Australia. Arnold was born in, wait for it..............."Austria". You need to brush up on your geography.

Wing, apparently you haven't met PDFMark
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 03, 2017, 12:10:25 PM
Hey - PornoBill, don't you mean pfdmike?  ;)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 03, 2017, 12:15:44 PM
Yea, someone needs a geology lesson for sure! ;D
awesomeness
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on February 03, 2017, 12:20:42 PM
PDFMark is a tool.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 03, 2017, 12:41:15 PM
While I'm concerned about where Dodd-Frank will be changed, there's little doubt that it's been very hard on small and medium business. Big business has the resources and cushion to deal with sweeping regulation, medium biz has a lot less capability. Anyone looking to get a significant bank loan or maintain a line of credit after Dodd-Frank faces a ridiculous set of challenges. Even well-secured projects are tough to finance--especially from the traditional sources: Community banks and credit unions.

It's an unintended consequence that could be relatively easy to repair, along with some other tweaks to ease the cost of the regulation--which is huge.

I read the executive order on the Fiduciary regulation, and it delays enactment to give Trumps administration time to review it. Obama signed the regulation with enactment for February, which is a bit of a grenade.  We'll have to see where this goes. Delay could be the same thing as repeal, but we won't know for a few months.

I feel whipsawed. I see reporting on the nonsense Trump seems to be doing, I get pissed off, but then on any of the substantial stuff it ooks a lot more rational than the way it's reported.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 03, 2017, 01:33:41 PM
I feel whipsawed. I see reporting on the nonsense Trump seems to be doing, I get pissed off, but then on any of the substantial stuff it ooks a lot more rational than the way it's reported.
You're surprised by that.....I think we need to expect it. It's why I've been saying folks need to be a bit more critical of the sources. Plenty to be concerned about but the hysteria I think is actually hurting any opposition. People are already tuning out the screeching.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 03, 2017, 03:26:23 PM
https://youtu.be/_RXDCLOC2lI
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 03, 2017, 03:28:25 PM
I'm not surprised, I've been saying the same thing, but it's become every source. Even the WSJ had a reactive headline for a mild story.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: southwesterly on February 03, 2017, 04:21:39 PM
 Never forget Bowling Green.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: southwesterly on February 03, 2017, 04:25:36 PM
Arnold Schwarzenegger is not from Australia. Arnold was born in, wait for it..............."Austria". You need to brush up on your geography.

"No worries mate, toss another strudel on the barbie"
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on February 03, 2017, 05:05:08 PM
Yea, someone needs a geology lesson for sure! ;D
awesomeness
;D
Actually, I'm not too concerned about geology, since if I want to see where something is, I can just look at a map.


I have been getting into genealogy lately, though, because I found an old Arabian lantern in the basement and wanted to research if it might be a magic one.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 03, 2017, 05:06:36 PM
On Friday, while signing Sweden's new climate law, Ms Lovin urged European countries to take a leading role in tackling climate change as "the US is not there anymore to lead".


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38853399

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 03, 2017, 05:09:51 PM
https://youtu.be/reuJ8yVCgSM


https://youtu.be/ryppmnDbqJY


http://everysecondcounts.eu/


Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 03, 2017, 06:04:20 PM
On Friday, while signing Sweden's new climate law, Ms Lovin urged European countries to take a leading role in tackling climate change as "the US is not there anymore to lead".


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38853399

Wow, there's a happy looking bunch. Cocktails after??
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Subber on February 03, 2017, 07:00:47 PM
On Friday, while signing Sweden's new climate law, Ms Lovin urged European countries to take a leading role in tackling climate change as "the US is not there anymore to lead".

(http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=31196.0;attach=80921;image)

Woman-caused global warming,
I mean climate change?

Brings a chill.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Subber on February 03, 2017, 07:10:15 PM
Quote
“Dodd-Frank is a disaster,” Trump said earlier this week during a meeting with small business owners. “We’re going to be doing a big number on Dodd-Frank.”

The president said he’ll be discussing the topic with top CEOs and banking executives at a meeting Friday morning at the White House, where attendees included Jamie Dimon, the CEO of JPMorgan Chase.

“There’s nobody better to tell me about Dodd-Frank than Jamie, so you’re going to tell me about it,” Trump said.

He told the group that he expects his administration “to be cutting a lot out of Dodd-Frank because frankly I have so many people, friends of mine that have nice businesses that can’t borrow money. They just can’t get any money because the banks just won’t let ‘em borrow because of the rules and regulations of Dodd-Frank.”

Possibly good, but Potentially very scary.

He'll get some good objective, non-conflicted info & recommendations - gulp.

If they want to deregulate it, they need to lower the government guarantees, raise reserve ratios, lessen monopoly powers, etc.
 - like that is going to happen.

Of course, JP Morgan, etc. wouldn't even be here now without the trillions of bailout monies.

Not so sure Trump will be negotiating this for most of the citizens' benefit.

Of course, we will see.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 03, 2017, 11:39:24 PM
Seriously though. What would you say if Obama had demoted the joint chiefs and put a black supremacist friend in charge?

I'd be up in arms.

Bannon is a self-admitted leninist, leader of a white power fringe media / fantasy / hate outlet...holy shit that any one defend this bullshit is beyond me.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Admin on February 04, 2017, 01:57:02 AM
“Darkness is good. Dick Cheney. Darth Vader. Satan. That’s power. It only helps us when they [liberals] get it wrong. When they’re blind to who we are and what we’re doing”.

That was Bannon in November.  He should be stoked because we are as blind as a bag of bats.

It would also be funny (if it were not so dire) that the "common man" has been duped into believing that this crew has their best interests in mind.  The slight of hand is working all around.  These guys are mouth populists and feet oligarchs.

And the R's really are getting in on the Darth Vader fun via the congressional review act.  The first five things that need to be overturned:

The stream protection rule for coal mining. This regulation, finalized in December 2016, would sharply restrict coal-mining companies from dumping debris and waste into nearby waterways in the future. Also, before starting a new mine, coal companies would have to develop a plan and set aside money to restore affected streams once finished. Advocates say the rule is crucial to protect fragile ecosystems and limit the dumping of toxic heavy metals into water supplies. But the coal industry — which is already in sharp decline — says it would put large swaths of the nation’s untapped coal reserves off-limits and further crunch mining companies.

The methane waste rule. This Department of Interior regulation, finalized in November 2016, would require oil and gas companies to reduce methane leaks from operations on federal and tribal lands. Instead of just flaring it or letting it waft into the air, companies would have to capture the methane and sell it off. This rule was a component of Obama’s climate plan, which aimed to reduce emissions of methane — a powerful greenhouse-gas — from oil and gas drilling 40 percent by 2025. But the oil industry preferred this be regulated at the state level (which is typically looser).

The “resource extraction rule.” This SEC regulation, finalized in June 2016, would require publicly traded oil, gas, and mining companies to disclose payments they make to foreign governments. It was done under the auspices of the 2010 Dodd-Frank financial reform bill. Its supporters say the increased transparency would deter corruption from oil companies working abroad. But oil companies hate it — when Trump’s new Secretary of State Rex Tillerson was head of ExxonMobil, he flew to DC to lobby against it, arguing it would put US energy companies at a competitive disadvantage.

The “blacklisting” rule for contractors. This rule, finalized by the Department of Labor in August 2016, would require federal contractors to disclose labor law violations from the last three years — and change their practices — before they can receive a contract. In October, a federal judge halted this rule from taking effect, saying it went beyond the authority Congress had given the executive branch.

The Social Security gun rule. Under this regulation, finalized in December 2016, the Social Security Administration would submit information on recipients of disability insurance to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System if they met certain “mental impairment” criteria. Gun-rights advocates said the system could block those on disability from being able to buy guns and rallied to repeal it.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 04, 2017, 04:56:13 AM
Here's a courtroom video showing part of the argument that Trump's travel ban was religiously motivated. I didn't realise that Trump's own advisors had said on TV that Trump specifically asked them to come up with a way of banning Muslims. Did anyone see such an interview - and if so, who said it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38866415
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Admin on February 04, 2017, 05:03:43 AM
Here's a courtroom video showing part of the argument that Trump's travel ban was religiously motivated. I didn't realise that Trump's own advisors had said on TV that Trump specifically asked them to come up with a way of banning Muslims. Did anyone see such an interview - and if so, who said it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38866415

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/316726-giuliani-trump-asked-me-how-to-do-a-muslim-ban-legally
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 04, 2017, 08:52:10 AM
Yeah it was Giuliani.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 04, 2017, 09:29:17 AM
Giuliani's statements are clearly taken out of context. 

He reiterated that the ban is "not based on religion."

"It's based on places where there are substantial evidence that people are sending terrorists into our country," he said.

I would question, if the "five things" stated above were so critical, why did it take the prior administration until late 2016 to finalize the related rules?  They look great on the surface, but have we considered all the pork attached and special interests affected?

Take a deeper dive...
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Admin on February 04, 2017, 10:30:15 AM
Ummm, I suppose we hear what we want to hear.  starts at 3:08

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGOwEOTYfuE&t=196s
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 04, 2017, 10:38:26 AM
Yeah, the point made in court was I think that that the origin of this EO - the intent that first started the ball rolling - was a "Muslim ban". But clearly Trump knew that such a thing would be illegal, so he asked his acolytes to find a way to achieve the same effect but legally. This interpretation is well supported by the excerpt of the interview on Fox News above.

The concern is that Trump sees himself as a knight in shining armour, and a knight needs a crusade...

cru|sade
[kruːˈseɪd]
NOUN
each of a series of medieval military expeditions made by Europeans to recover the Holy Land from the Muslims in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: TallDude on February 04, 2017, 01:10:36 PM
I guess SOME people just forget... ::) or weren't old enough to ever know....

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4351026/clinton-1995-immigration-sotu


We tried to stop those Italians from immigrating in the 1940's, some good it did. One of them was found posing as the best man in my wedding.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 04, 2017, 03:51:29 PM

Holy shit guys. Many people's ability to defend Trumps ridiculous behavior is weird.

Post a clip about Clinton talking about illegal aliens??? What Trump has done is barring legal travelers from countries, revoked legal visa's clearly based on religion. It is categorically different. They detained a former prime minister with a diplomatic passport. It is a poorly formulate and executed order.

At the end of the day, this is a fight over ideas. We (all of the rest of the world) need to partner with the majority of muslims to fight the extremist muslims...what trump does is literally the dumbest thing he can do, he is simply proving ISIS right, when they are portraying the US as this enemy of islam. The bullshit cowboy mentality doesn't work. It never has. 

Torture?? If you can say that you are for torture, then you are screwed up. It doesn't work.

The best way to fight all this shit is to educate the world. Equal rights and schooling is also coincidentally the best way to lower the population explosion and limit climate change. With this government, fat chance any of that will happen.




 

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: addapost on February 04, 2017, 05:00:04 PM
The fact that so many people defend him and apologize for him is the scariest thing of all to me.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 04, 2017, 06:14:45 PM
I haven't seen much defense, just irritation at the media coverage for creating a chicken little environment. It has become difficult to separate out the real agenda from the pointless noise. I started off thinking he was a complete dick, and monumentally unsuited to be president.  But it's challenging to see what he's doing with all the screaming.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on February 04, 2017, 06:38:36 PM
how does it work? Can congress pass something that says the president can't use twitter? Think that would have any momentum? He sure doesn't seem to be helping himself with it from what I can tell.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 04, 2017, 07:27:42 PM
I haven't seen much defense, just irritation at the media coverage for creating a chicken little environment. It has become difficult to separate out the real agenda from the pointless noise. I started off thinking he was a complete dick, and monumentally unsuited to be president.  But it's challenging to see what he's doing with all the screaming.

I think it is hard to see what he is doing because there is no clear ideology, no policy path, no plan and no skill involved. Trump shifts focus and screams at the little things. The problem is of course that people like Bannon knows to take advantage of this. I am willing to bet that if you ask Trump what his executive order is about, he can barely recite the headline.

I am hoping the GOP find its spine. To be honest if they could at the same time ditch the teapartiers and the religiously ultra conservatives that have hijacked the party and at the same time find their conservative ideological roots I think this country would have an opportunity to continue its leadership in the world. Unfortunately, this is not the current path.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 04, 2017, 08:21:37 PM
I am hoping the GOP find its spine. To be honest if they could at the same time ditch the teapartiers and the religiously ultra conservatives that have hijacked the party and at the same time find their conservative ideological roots I think this country would have an opportunity to continue its leadership in the world. Unfortunately, this is not the current path.
It goes both ways taut...no deflection....you're right. But if the dems at the same time would stop progressing further left we could all stop arguing about this shit and find some compromise in the middle....go surf and have a beer.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 04, 2017, 11:00:18 PM
It goes both ways taut...no deflection....you're right. But if the dems at the same time would stop progressing further left we could all stop arguing about this shit and find some compromise in the middle....go surf and have a beer.

haha sure. My foot is still not surfable so I am stuck on a bike.
Do you really think Obama was a very leftist president? To me one of the things I liked about him was his pragmatism of trying to get shit done. His willingness to move across the aisle was ultimately on of Clintons undoing since Comey was a leftover from Bush and conservative.
I agree the if Sanders had gotten the election he would have tried to move the party left, but I doubt Clinton would have moved the bar much left at all. That might just have been her undoing...you now in addition to not doing a good campaign.

I think one of the strengths of the US is its 8 year switch between the two parties...old GOP would push to get a steeper growth curve and the DEMS would temper the curvature. This tends to avoid the huge blowouts like we saw in 2008, yet get a good overall growth.

This is lost on the new GOP because their priorities now aren't economic growth for society, but personal gain and religious indoctrination.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 05, 2017, 01:44:58 AM


Looks like these assholes are trying their hardest to fuck up the planet:
                           
H.R.861 - To terminate the Environmental Protection Agency.                             
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/861

Everything is up for grabs. Keep on defending this bullshit. See where it gets us.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 05, 2017, 08:03:23 AM
Damn, that link set me to reading the congressional record "week in review".  It's as bad as reading YouTube comments.

I'd love to see the EPA become less of a governmental agency and more a source of actionable, significant, effective policy. As it is now, it's mostly a burden. Some great work being done in the trenches, but the usual government crapola at the middle to top. But eliminate it? Insane.

I looked at the bills introduced by Gaetz. He seems like a nutball freshman who introduces dipshit bills to get attention.  A few have passed the house, nothing has gone further.  There's no text available yet to see what the bill is about.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 05, 2017, 12:05:37 PM
Damn, that link set me to reading the congressional record "week in review".  It's as bad as reading YouTube comments.
Yeah congress is and has been a horrorshow for a while.

Quote
I'd love to see the EPA become less of a governmental agency and more a source of actionable, significant, effective policy. As it is now, it's mostly a burden. Some great work being done in the trenches, but the usual government crapola at the middle to top. But eliminate it? Insane.
Yeah like any other agency: give them teeth and independence. Same thing goes for FCC. Their mandate should be directed by policy and not by hires.

Quote
I looked at the bills introduced by Gaetz. He seems like a nutball freshman who introduces dipshit bills to get attention.  A few have passed the house, nothing has gone further.  There's no text available yet to see what the bill is about.
Yeah sure, but you can argue that this comes from Trump (or at least is sanctioned by Trump) when he in an interview before the election claimed that he would abolish the"department of the environmental"...in which I assume he meant EPA(?).
 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 05, 2017, 02:31:28 PM


So what do you guys think about repeal of the Johnson act? I think they should make every religious organization taxable anyway. If they want to simplify law..just take out the Johnson act and take out the taxable exemption. Religion is a trillion dollar industry and the US needs to increase its tax income. It should be an easy calculation.

Also it annoys me that journalists are not pressing for answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMEI9NpAQM8

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: connector14 on February 05, 2017, 02:53:13 PM
I'd be all for that.  I never have understood why religious organizations get out of taxation on their properties.
Can we individuals all become "ministers" and call our homes religious property? (I worship the "paddle"...and my home is where I store my godly goods....and I invite others here to come visit and "share the stoke" ....so therefore I should not be taxed....by the way,  I am going to retire and I will soon be entirely a "NON-PROFIT"...just like I was mostly the last couple of years ;D
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 05, 2017, 08:33:10 PM
I'd be all for that too.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 05, 2017, 08:35:05 PM
Tom Brady for President! Bill Belichick for Secretary of State..... ;)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 05, 2017, 09:44:12 PM
I'd be all for that too.

HEEEY WE AGREEE! Makes me all warm and fuzzy ;-)

So then this guy comes along: http://billmoyers.com/story/an-epa-nominee-drafted-by-business-interests/
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 06, 2017, 09:36:50 AM

Yeah Trump is going to be great for industries:

http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/documents/business/amicus-brief-by-tech-companies/2322/

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 06, 2017, 09:59:20 AM
^ what's this high tech stuff? Pffffftt. Is it worth anything?

I thought America was a coal based economy.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 06, 2017, 06:46:21 PM
It pretty much is. We are the Saudi Arabia of coal. the entire midwest sits on huge seams of it. But it mostly sucks as far as quality goes. Still, there's so much that good stuff (low sulfur, hard coal) is available in larger quantities than the full reserve of most countries.

I'm fully in favor of religion getting involved in politics if they pay taxes. Otherwise it's church and state. What would Jesus do? (not that I really care, but it makes me snicker).
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 06, 2017, 09:15:22 PM
Jesus said, "give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's."  Absolute genius...

But before we dismantle the church, consider the social burden that religious organizations carry.  These would be otherwise supported by government.  The relegiously-involved tend to indirectly provide more support to social programs than does the average non-involved taxpayer.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Salish Salt on February 06, 2017, 09:20:03 PM
Natural gas passed coal last year as the largest source of USA power generation.
The majority of new construction generating capacity in 2015 world wide was renewable.  So much Texas wind its messing with grid stability (like Hawaii).
Things change  (Still lots of coal in the ground but its gotten expensive to generate with, so no new green field PPAs). Don't think its an EPA thing.
When will car batteries get cheaper than...??
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 06, 2017, 10:04:16 PM
Jesus said, "give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's."  Absolute genius...

But before we dismantle the church, consider the social burden that religious organizations carry.  These would be otherwise supported by government.  The relegiously-involved tend to indirectly provide more support to social programs than does the average non-involved taxpayer.

No one is saying anything about dismantling anything.

I am curious on what you base your claim that they tend to indirectly provide more support to social programs on? 1. What constitute indirect support, and 2. what social programs?


Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 07, 2017, 04:40:59 AM
To my earlier point about all the hysteria causing people to ignore what actually is concerning.
http://www.npr.org/2017/02/07/513857856/not-every-trump-outrage-is-outrageous-tom-nichols-says
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 07, 2017, 06:52:06 AM
That article misses the main concern of those who oppose Trump's EO. This is that a ban of this type will make the US LESS safe, not more.

IMO Trump is relying on his supporters not being sophisticated enough to understand why.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 07, 2017, 07:17:10 AM
It's not specific to that. The hysterical reporting isn't just about the so called ban...it's about everything...and that's why it's stupid...get outraged about the outrageous and don't paint everything with a brush of sensationalism.
Opinion is the key word in your last sentence.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 07, 2017, 08:14:51 AM
Jesus said, "give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's."  Absolute genius...

But before we dismantle the church, consider the social burden that religious organizations carry.  These would be otherwise supported by government.  The relegiously-involved tend to indirectly provide more support to social programs than does the average non-involved taxpayer.

No one is saying anything about dismantling anything.

I am curious on what you base your claim that they tend to indirectly provide more support to social programs on? 1. What constitute indirect support, and 2. what social programs?

I used "dismantling" in the context of the current tax structure.

Indirect support are donations made to religious organizations who in turn support homeless programs, schools, etc.  These donations are in addition to any tax obligations they pay, so they create an excess that would otherwise have to be covered by government programs. 

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of non-religious donors that also make significant donations to charities, in some cases, to religious organizations.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 07, 2017, 09:53:26 AM
It's not specific to that. The hysterical reporting isn't just about the so called ban...it's about everything...and that's why it's stupid...get outraged about the outrageous and don't paint everything with a brush of sensationalism.
Opinion is the key word in your last sentence.
It's as unhelpful to refer to this coverage as "hysterical" as it is for the liberals you hate so much to disparage Trump supporters. The majority of the population did not vote for Trump, and if the whole world's population were voting for US president he'd have got virtually nowhere. What you have here is the majority of the US population, and just about every non-US person in the rest of the world, voicing their fears. Their fears are that Trump is going to precipitate a war with China (which is not at all unrealistic since Bannon had said he expects one), and that his actions are going to greatly help ISIS and other religious fanatics.

Then of course there are the fears that he is going to pollute the environment, cause irreparable climate change, and remove financial regulations that exist to prevent another financial meltdown like we've just had.

So, by all means argue as to why the policies he is pursuing are not going to lead to these outcomes. But you are being no better than the people you criticise if you refer to them expressing their fears publicly as "hysterical".
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 07, 2017, 10:01:29 AM
Interesting article on Fake News and its genesis and economy: http://newatlas.com/what-is-fake-news-history-economy/47773/
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 07, 2017, 10:18:14 AM
Natural gas passed coal last year as the largest source of USA power generation.
The majority of new construction generating capacity in 2015 world wide was renewable.  So much Texas wind its messing with grid stability (like Hawaii).
Things change  (Still lots of coal in the ground but its gotten expensive to generate with, so no new green field PPAs). Don't think its an EPA thing.
When will car batteries get cheaper than...??

Yes, a very promising trend. What I was talking about is known reserves. In reality, the reserves of natural gas are probably unknown (known unknowns??).

I don't forsee electric cars being cheaper than gasoline for some time, but electric cars can give a return on investment that gasoline cars cannot. If some of the smartgrid schemes are implemented your car might power your house and/or business. I'm tempted to add that capability into the electric TR3 I'm building, just for the hell of it. Connect your DC car to an AC inverter, charge it on off-peak power. Drive to work and back home, power your home/work through the inverter during peak power time. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Utilization factor of cars is very low. Creates all kinds of potential opportunities. Historically the aim for better utilization was to stick everyone in a bus or carpool. Doesn't work if people are even moderately rich. as four lanes of clogged traffic and an empty two-person carpool lane demonstrates.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 07, 2017, 10:58:48 AM
What? there is a huge difference in me saying there is hysteria in news reporting...false outrage simply because it's Trump and the offhand dismissal of his supporters. All I'm suggesting (and there are lots of liberals saying the same now) is to back off on the hysteria. And it's not just far left liberals I hate it's the far right as well. Both are prone to inflation,  exaggeration and hypocrisy. There is plenty to be outraged about without making shit up. If you don't see that there is hysteria in both the reporting and the response to it then I guess there is nothing to discuss. Do you really not get this...do you not understand the parable of the boy who cried wolf?
I also like how you paint with such a ridiculously broad brush.....you seem to feel like the whole world is on your side except for a few naïve and unsophisticated people here that supported Trump. Kind of like Trump inflating his inauguration crowd...both laughable.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on February 07, 2017, 11:10:56 AM
What? there is a huge difference in me saying there is hysteria in news reporting...false outrage simply because it's Trump and the offhand dismissal of his supporters. All I'm suggesting (and there are lots of liberals saying the same now) is to back off on the hysteria. And it's not just far left liberals I hate it's the far right as well. Both are prone to inflation,  exaggeration and hypocrisy. There is plenty to be outraged about without making shit up. If you don't see that there is hysteria in both the reporting and the response to it then I guess there is nothing to discuss. Do you really not get this...do you not understand the parable of the boy who cried wolf?
I also like how you paint with such a ridiculously broad brush.....you seem to feel like the whole world is on your side except for a few naïve and unsophisticated people here that supported Trump. Kind of like Trump inflating his inauguration crowd...both laughable.

Could you post a few examples of what you term as 'hysteria'?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 07, 2017, 11:30:59 AM

I used "dismantling" in the context of the current tax structure.

Indirect support are donations made to religious organizations who in turn support homeless programs, schools, etc.  These donations are in addition to any tax obligations they pay, so they create an excess that would otherwise have to be covered by government programs. 

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of non-religious donors that also make significant donations to charities, in some cases, to religious organizations.

Well, some time ago, I did some back of the napkin using the lowest calculation possible for estimated tax revenue from churches (note not all religious activities) and if the tax revenue was earmarked homeless people each homeless person in the US would get almost $100k per year.

I think a lot of the donations from good Americans aren't going where they are hoping it is going. This is of course why they should be forced to publish their budgets. A lot of the programs you are talking about are also getting direct government support. At least they should show their accounting, and be treated as a non-profit.
When that is said, the non-profit sector in the US has gone nuts. I know people who has a SUP / Kite teaching school as a non-profit because it is somehow a social good that people learn to SUP (while paying for it). 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on February 07, 2017, 11:40:32 AM

I used "dismantling" in the context of the current tax structure.

Indirect support are donations made to religious organizations who in turn support homeless programs, schools, etc.  These donations are in addition to any tax obligations they pay, so they create an excess that would otherwise have to be covered by government programs. 

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of non-religious donors that also make significant donations to charities, in some cases, to religious organizations.

Well, some time ago, I did some back of the napkin using the lowest calculation possible for estimated tax revenue from churches (note not all religious activities) and if the tax revenue was earmarked homeless people each homeless person in the US would get almost $100k per year.

I think a lot of the donations from good Americans aren't going where they are hoping it is going. This is of course why they should be forced to publish their budgets. A lot of the programs you are talking about are also getting direct government support. At least they should show their accounting, and be treated as a non-profit.
When that is said, the non-profit sector in the US has gone nuts. I know people who has a SUP / Kite teaching school as a non-profit because it is somehow a social good that people learn to SUP (while paying for it).

Are these schools designated as non-profit or as not for profit? There is a difference in taxes treatment  between the two.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: freetobeme on February 07, 2017, 11:42:05 AM

I used "dismantling" in the context of the current tax structure.

Indirect support are donations made to religious organizations who in turn support homeless programs, schools, etc.  These donations are in addition to any tax obligations they pay, so they create an excess that would otherwise have to be covered by government programs. 

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of non-religious donors that also make significant donations to charities, in some cases, to religious organizations.

Well, some time ago, I did some back of the napkin using the lowest calculation possible for estimated tax revenue from churches (note not all religious activities) and if the tax revenue was earmarked homeless people each homeless person in the US would get almost $100k per year.

I think a lot of the donations from good Americans aren't going where they are hoping it is going. This is of course why they should be forced to publish their budgets. A lot of the programs you are talking about are also getting direct government support. At least they should show their accounting, and be treated as a non-profit.
When that is said, the non-profit sector in the US has gone nuts. I know people who has a SUP / Kite teaching school as a non-profit because it is somehow a social good that people learn to SUP (while paying for it).

Exactly. Who's holding the church, in America I'm suggesting the Catholic Church, accountable?

By accounts of the church buildings here in my area, the super churches and their heads that I read about and the known immense wealth of the Vatican Im hard pressed to believe that a high percentage of church based donations are supporting a high percentage of social or economic needs in this country.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on February 07, 2017, 12:20:43 PM
Could you post a few examples of what you term as 'hysteria'?
I'll chime in and go with this one.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2017/01/30/tom-brady-donald-trump-super-bowl-li-51-patriots-falcons/97235644/
Tho not hysteria per se it is this kind of crap all over out there, and which has been out there for months that leads to the hystera. I might have to compile some sort of a list. It really does seem to have settled down a little the last days or week but the stupid opinion article out there presented as news will never go away. I don't think this is really presented as news as such and is presented as an opinion so I may not be presenting a good example.
Here's another I clicked on yesterday.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/nation-now/2017/02/06/did-you-catch-these-hidden-messages-lady-gagas-halftime-performance/97537744/
For whatever it's worth I am not a fan of the Gaga really but WOW, was that a show or what? Pretty impressive.
I did not read this again but I am posting it here because my take on it when I looked at it yesterday is this person did not speak or interview Miss Gaga and this is her own take on the show presented as "this is the real thing, listen to me".  She might have nailed it with that description.....and maybe not and the take I took was that she was just guessing. So what. I didn't give the choice the choice of songs much thought, I guess others did and I am sure Miss Gaga did as well. Good for her but it's this kind of reporting that just fuels stuff up. It seems to be in the flavor of that if you supported Trump your a racist idiot. Throwing it out there in the same manner of making old white guy feel guilty because..........he's an old white guy and he should feel guilty.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 07, 2017, 01:26:09 PM
Well, some time ago, I did some back of the napkin using the lowest calculation possible for estimated tax revenue from churches (note not all religious activities) and if the tax revenue was earmarked homeless people each homeless person in the US would get almost $100k per year.

What a colossal waste of a napkin! ;D

If you post your calculation, I'd be happy to look at it.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 07, 2017, 03:24:51 PM
If there is hysteria here, it's coming every bit as much from Trump as his opponents.

http://news.sky.com/story/british-mother-tells-trump-my-daughters-killing-was-not-a-terror-attack-10759415
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on February 07, 2017, 04:40:11 PM
If there is hysteria here, it's coming every bit as much from Trump as his opponents.

http://news.sky.com/story/british-mother-tells-trump-my-daughters-killing-was-not-a-terror-attack-10759415
Hadn't seen that but yeah......no doubt, he sure doesn't help himself at all at times. At least (i think) he left snl alone this week.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 07, 2017, 05:49:58 PM
Clearly Trump and his gang need to get their act together, that's simply inexcusable.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on February 07, 2017, 06:11:55 PM
Could you post a few examples of what you term as 'hysteria'?
I'll chime in and go with this one.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2017/01/30/tom-brady-donald-trump-super-bowl-li-51-patriots-falcons/97235644/
Tho not hysteria per se it is this kind of crap all over out there, and which has been out there for months that leads to the hystera. I might have to compile some sort of a list. It really does seem to have settled down a little the last days or week but the stupid opinion article out there presented as news will never go away. I don't think this is really presented as news as such and is presented as an opinion so I may not be presenting a good example.
Here's another I clicked on yesterday.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/nation-now/2017/02/06/did-you-catch-these-hidden-messages-lady-gagas-halftime-performance/97537744/
For whatever it's worth I am not a fan of the Gaga really but WOW, was that a show or what? Pretty impressive.
I did not read this again but I am posting it here because my take on it when I looked at it yesterday is this person did not speak or interview Miss Gaga and this is her own take on the show presented as "this is the real thing, listen to me".  She might have nailed it with that description.....and maybe not and the take I took was that she was just guessing. So what. I didn't give the choice the choice of songs much thought, I guess others did and I am sure Miss Gaga did as well. Good for her but it's this kind of reporting that just fuels stuff up. It seems to be in the flavor of that if you supported Trump your a racist idiot. Throwing it out there in the same manner of making old white guy feel guilty because..........he's an old white guy and he should feel guilty.


I would call that pretty bad reporting and trying to make a story that may or may not be there, but I don't really see how you'd call it 'hysterical". USA Today does like to report entertainment news, sports news, and politics, and here they tie it all in one article.

re: trump supporters and racism. I know that all Trump supporters are not racist, but all racists I know are Trump supporters.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: freetobeme on February 07, 2017, 06:15:43 PM
If there is hysteria here, it's coming every bit as much from Trump as his opponents.

http://news.sky.com/story/british-mother-tells-trump-my-daughters-killing-was-not-a-terror-attack-10759415
Hadn't seen that but yeah......no doubt, he sure doesn't help himself at all at times. At least (i think) he left snl alone this week.

I agree. One of Trump's main means of communication is to raise hysteria. To raise hype. To make himself look big league. Saying things that will rile up both sides - his devoted followers and his mortal deniers alike. Its Trump Communication 101 really. He uses inflated and exaggerated policies, numbers, gestures and ideas all day long. Much of it seemingly without thinking the process through. Thus, causing a larger reaction (hysteria) than justified in the end when hopefully only the half measures of his madness are actually realized. 

That said its up to each citizen on how they react to this stuff. People need to educate themselves on how other incoming administrations operated and the basics of government. I think that may help cooler heads prevail. Unfortunately we don't like change and many Americans fall prey to the pomp and circumstance that is Trump
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 07, 2017, 10:32:01 PM
Well, some time ago, I did some back of the napkin using the lowest calculation possible for estimated tax revenue from churches (note not all religious activities) and if the tax revenue was earmarked homeless people each homeless person in the US would get almost $100k per year.

What a colossal waste of a napkin! ;D

If you post your calculation, I'd be happy to look at it.

haha. Nice use of "I don't believe you". First of all, Ive used conservative estimates, and I don't have the numbers I used back then, but here, take this:

First read this article (fascinating reading): http://www.religjournal.com/pdf/ijrr12003.pdf

So it estimates that between religion is between $300B and $4.5TN revenue depending on what you include. The medium revenue numbers at $1.5TN. If you look at, admittedly patheos isn;t very pro-religion, but these are extremely conservative estimates, and split that over the current report on homelessness in the US.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/06/16/the-yearly-cost-of-religious-tax-exemptions-71000000000/
and
http://www.endhomelessness.org/page/-/files/2016%20State%20Of%20Homelessness.pdf

So, 71BN divided on 560 000 people gives you a $125k per homeless person.

Again I am telling you..this isn;t even counting the amount of money the state is adding to the church revenue...I doubt the churches are using their monies well...it is kind of like the food drives...giving actual food is silly because it will cost the organization more to move that can around than if you just give them money...but it is your 10th and so you do, so the system is due for an overhaul, and taxing religious organization is a start. Why should I subsidize your religion? :-)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 07, 2017, 10:47:29 PM
I don't know about the media coverage in the US, but outside the US the conclusion for Trump's team that the events listed in the Sky News article were "under-reported" is ludicrous: mainstream media coverage of these events here and in the rest of Europe was wall-to-wall.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 07, 2017, 11:14:36 PM
And here is Trump and his team getting hysterical about reports that he wears a bathrobe.

You couldn't make it up.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38893302
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 07, 2017, 11:36:09 PM
And here is Trump and his team getting hysterical about reports that he wears a bathrobe.

You couldn't make it up.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38893302

How about the press just dismiss that as being dumb in focus on all the real shit that trump and his goonies are perpetrating.

Literally just calling the press secretary out on saying it because it means nothing, and then quickly keep focus on the target.
The press is so incredibly easy to distract. Everything isn't important.
****************
Hey your comment on bathrobe; really? that is what you guys focus on? Now regarding your nomination of the most unqualified person in history of education...DeVos, a person who by any standard completely failed the job interview, and you didn't fire her, do you have any standards at all?
 ***************
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 08, 2017, 04:02:48 AM
Nice gesture and so appreciated:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38817701

Restores my faith in human nature. It's people and acts like this that make America safe[r].
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 08, 2017, 04:18:27 AM
Why should I subsidize your religion? :-)
On this point we agree, I don't believe you should. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 08, 2017, 05:17:51 AM
Nice gesture and so appreciated:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38817701

Restores my faith in human nature. It's people and acts like this that make America safe[r].
Yes, safer. And nicer. I wish the Ginger Whinger would watch this and reflect on the power of compassion.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 08, 2017, 07:13:24 AM
Tom...there are more than a few good examples of the hysteria already on here. Stories hyping the orders to stop all outgoing communications....standard practice that every admin does but when Trump does it there's an outcry? Find me one positive story on Trump on CNN....can you honestly say with a straight face that they aren't activists instead of journalists? Every single story from the majority of the major media is spun hard to the left. Rahm Emmanuelle of all people is saying shut up....that the left needs to stop whining about being right and start focusing on winning elections to get what they want.

A10.....I'm not making any excuses about Trump...he's acting like a petulant child half the time. But nice deflection of the hysterical press discussion to Trump...do you always complain about stuff and then do the same? I also find it somewhat bizarre that you say so many are with you in Europe and yet a recent poll by the Chatham house says 55 percent of folks over there want a similar travel ban from terrorist countries. https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/what-do-europeans-think-about-muslim-immigration
Do you simply live in an echo chamber of your own making? You point to a story as an example of the Trump teams hysteria when in reality it makes my point...and taut seems surprisingly to agree with me.....that it's a non story that never should have been....done as a petty attack to insinuate that he's lounging around the whitehouse. Then Spicer off the cuff dismisses it with a "I don't think he owns one" and it ramps up in this left spinning vortex of outrage about how they are lying about a fucking bathrobe.....and yet you think it makes your argument stronger?  Are you truly a scientist? Because I thought critical thinking was what science is all about.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on February 08, 2017, 07:36:33 AM
Quote
Find me one positive story on Trump on CNN....can you honestly say with a straight face that they aren't activists instead of journalists?

Not hard at all, a couple from today. (p.s. - I never mentioned CNN, I usually don't read their web site and never watch their news.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/06/news/economy/donald-trump-beattyville-kentucky/index.html?iid=ob_homepage_deskrecommended_pool

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/08/europe/europe-donald-trump-travel-ban/index.html

My question was concerning your posts about 'hysteria', I didn't think hysteria ment bias.

hys·te·ri·a
həˈstirēə,həˈsterēə/
noun
exaggerated or uncontrollable emotion or excitement, especially among a group of people.
"the mass hysteria that characterizes the week before Christmas"
synonyms:   frenzy, feverishness, hysterics, fit of madness, derangement, mania, delirium; More
PSYCHIATRY
a psychological disorder (not now regarded as a single definite condition) whose symptoms include conversion of psychological stress into physical symptoms (somatization), selective amnesia, shallow volatile emotions, and overdramatic or attention-seeking behavior. The term has a controversial history as it was formerly regarded as a disease specific to women.


   
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 08, 2017, 07:42:02 AM
Really Tom?....there is hysteria because there is bias...it's nice that you know enough to use a dictionary but you might want to start thinking about how words (and actions) are related in a discussion. That's the next step to debating when you get done with the dictionary.
I'm also shocked that you point at stories that are at least a page deep on CNN and that are done in such a way as to paint the ones that are supporting Trump as poor white trash or xenophobic racists....I guess it does cements my understanding of how you form your opinions.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 08, 2017, 08:09:04 AM
...
Yes, safer. And nicer. I wish the Ginger Whinger would watch this and reflect on the power of compassion.

Dream on. He's clearly lacking in that department. There's a ton of psychological opinion out there all pointing the same direction. If only our weather reports were so aligned...

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on February 08, 2017, 09:03:40 AM
Debate? Who's debating, I'd never debate anyone on a forum. I just did not know what you meant when you were often mentioning hysterical reporting. Like I mentioned, I do not watch CNN, I don't have cable. To me, the definition of hysterical is close to the dictionary definition. I was just curious what you were talking about.

As to the links to today's CNN. I read news.google.com (among others) most mornings. The CNN article about Europe was the 3rd or 4th article they listed. I then went to the CNN website and saw the 'poor white trash or xenophobic racists' article on the first page. I didn't read the article, just thought it was pro Trump from the headline.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 08, 2017, 09:09:13 AM
A10.....I'm not making any excuses about Trump...he's acting like a petulant child half the time. But nice deflection of the hysterical press discussion to Trump...do you always complain about stuff and then do the same? I also find it somewhat bizarre that you say so many are with you in Europe and yet a recent poll by the Chatham house says 55 percent of folks over there want a similar travel ban from terrorist countries. https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/what-do-europeans-think-about-muslim-immigration
Do you simply live in an echo chamber of your own making? You point to a story as an example of the Trump teams hysteria when in reality it makes my point...and taut seems surprisingly to agree with me.....that it's a non story that never should have been....done as a petty attack to insinuate that he's lounging around the whitehouse. Then Spicer off the cuff dismisses it with a "I don't think he owns one" and it ramps up in this left spinning vortex of outrage about how they are lying about a fucking bathrobe.....and yet you think it makes your argument stronger?  Are you truly a scientist? Because I thought critical thinking was what science is all about.
The Chatham House finding is misleading, I'm afraid. They asked people whether they agreed to disagreed with the statement ‘All further migration from mainly Muslim countries should be stopped’. They would have got exactly the same results if they had asked "All further migration from any country should be stopped", but the conclusion would have been very different. People just don't want more outsiders coming to their country, no matter who they are. For instance, in the UK, the Brexit vote was carried principally because people wanted to stop migration from other EU countries, the vast majority of whom are not Muslim. So that result is almost certainly not about terrorism, nor is it about religion.

The post about "Robegate" has little to do with "hysteria" by the media, IMO. It is instead emblematic of a new approach that is appearing in the media here towards Trump. People are starting to become less afraid, since he and his administration seem so incompetent. Instead he is becoming a figure of ridicule. The media are now deliberately rattling his cage with nonsense because they know that either him or Spicer will say some new stupid thing and over-react, and that will get them easy column inches and a few laughs. IMO they really should close down his Twitter account, ban him from watching junk TV, and get a new media team. It's turning into a farce.
 
As for the new round of insults you have thrown my way, I'll ignore them. I was always told at school that a person starts throwing insults when they feel they are losing the argument :)



 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: southwesterly on February 08, 2017, 10:17:33 AM
I posted this on the wrong thread, but I found my shitshow:

Betsy DeVos does not have an education degree, never has been an educator, never attended a public school, her children have gone to private schools and she supports taking funding from public schools and giving it to for-profit religious schools.

How does this make her qualified as an Education Secretary?
Her family has donated over 8 million dollars to the Republican party.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: freetobeme on February 08, 2017, 10:53:10 AM
I posted this on the wrong thread, but I found my shitshow:

Betsy DeVos does not have an education degree, never has been an educator, never attended a public school, her children have gone to private schools and she supports taking funding from public schools and giving it to for-profit religious schools.

How does this make her qualified as an Education Secretary?
Her family has donated over 8 million dollars to the Republican party.

Schoolin? You talking bout smart stuff again son!?  LOL. Hell, Im surprised she's not up for FBI Director with those credentials. As you've alluded to SW there is no rhyme or reason other than; she Rich, she White, she got that Religion. Everything you need to be properly educated under the G.O.D. in the U.S.A. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 08, 2017, 11:10:06 AM
https://youtu.be/LZ78sV2ea10
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on February 08, 2017, 12:07:50 PM
I posted this on the wrong thread, but I found my shitshow:

Betsy DeVos does not have an education degree, never has been an educator, never attended a public school, her children have gone to private schools and she supports taking funding from public schools and giving it to for-profit religious schools.

How does this make her qualified as an Education Secretary?
Her family has donated over 8 million dollars to the Republican party.

Schoolin? You talking bout smart stuff again son!?  LOL. Hell, Im surprised she's not up for FBI Director with those credentials. As you've alluded to SW there is no rhyme or reason other than; she Rich, she White, she got that Religion. Everything you need to be properly educated under the G.O.D. in the U.S.A.
You're being awfully tough on her.  I recall reading a long time ago that her family's business built the pyramids.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUPcheat on February 08, 2017, 12:53:11 PM
News has always been about taking "facts" and developing an editorial position around them, usually to serve a political position.

With the vast amount of information generated by all media sources today, and the competition for the loudest voices, it was probably inevitable that "news" would eventually become untethered from anything resembling a fact, with the "facts" generated exclusively by the political position.

In psychology, this is usually referred to as "Borderline Personality Disorder", where the emotional needs of the broadcaster generate whatever false facts are necessary to justify the emotional position.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Subber on February 08, 2017, 01:17:23 PM
It is also why the politicians (and the news networks) talk in generalities:

  "Hope & Change"

  "Make America Great Again"

Most people fill in what they think the guy means without knowing for sure.

The news agencies let the ambiguities slide.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: addapost on February 08, 2017, 02:01:37 PM
Is this ok? Is reporting this "hysterical"? Should we not be critical? I would submit this: I don't care what else he has ever said about anything. I don't care what any media outlet has ever reported, "hysterical" or not. This one single statement is an illegal abuse of power that requires impeachment.
http://www.learnprogress.org/trump-tape-threatening-senator/
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: freetobeme on February 08, 2017, 02:12:38 PM
Is this ok? Is reporting this "hysterical"? Should we not be critical? I would submit this: I don't care what else he has ever said about anything. I don't care what any media outlet has ever reported, "hysterical" or not. This one single statement is an illegal abuse of power that requires impeachment.
http://www.learnprogress.org/trump-tape-threatening-senator/

I dislike Trump a great deal. This was reported yesterday on NPR and I thought to post here as the perfect example of a hysteria based article. This is not news. It is Trump using exaggerated and emotional frothy appeal to make his henchmen laugh and cower. To give the media a bone (current day standards). And for his peasant detractors to get all hot and bothered and share online. Articles or video of Trump being a dick is not newsworthy in my opinion.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: addapost on February 08, 2017, 02:29:36 PM
Articles or video of Trump being a dick is not newsworthy in my opinion.
Wow. I completely disagree. I also think, though I'm not a lawyer, that using the power of your job to threaten someone else's job is probably illegal. So right there, just saying those words, he is breaking the law. Little more than 'just' "being a dick".
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 08, 2017, 02:40:57 PM
Articles or video of Trump being a dick is not newsworthy in my opinion.
Wow. I completely disagree. I also think, though I'm not a lawyer, that using the power of your job to threaten someone else's job is probably illegal. So right there, just saying those words, he is breaking the law. Little more than 'just' "being a dick".

Yeah for sure it is news and reporting worthy. When a sitting president is talking disparagingly about the judicial system and fundamentally questions the judiciary there is something fundamentally wrong. People talking about having respect for the constitution...then turn around a defend that action is insane. The cognitive dissonance is so a fierce power...or just a lack of understanding that the founding fathers established this power structure exactly to avoid having people like Trump gain too much power.

That doesn't mean that upon first chance Bannon will not do a major power grab. They have teed up for it. One act of terror and they will swing the bat.

Btw Stone: It is the labeling of articles that is tiring. You can agree or not on the focus, but label it hysteria seems inaccurate and prejudiced to me.  In one instance a set of people are labeled snowflakes, then in the next, the people making the labels are feeling offended because of too many insensitive jokes.
A journalist isn't some neutral information forwarder, but they should stay clear and transparent about why they make certain choices and what their overall attitudes are.




Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: freetobeme on February 08, 2017, 02:47:07 PM
Articles or video of Trump being a dick is not newsworthy in my opinion.
Wow. I completely disagree. I also think, though I'm not a lawyer, that using the power of your job to threaten someone else's job is probably illegal. So right there, just saying those words, he is breaking the law. Little more than 'just' "being a dick".

I guess my point is that this, however light hearted or vulgar one would take it, it is incredibly low on the list of daily items to trudge thru and dissect. Id prefer the media and public concentrate, and rally against, his actions regarding policy vs the continuation of his crude and unjust dribble which helped to get him elected. It just goes nowhere even if the finger pointing is spot on.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on February 08, 2017, 03:49:50 PM
Is this ok? Is reporting this "hysterical"? Should we not be critical? I would submit this: I don't care what else he has ever said about anything. I don't care what any media outlet has ever reported, "hysterical" or not. This one single statement is an illegal abuse of power that requires impeachment.
http://www.learnprogress.org/trump-tape-threatening-senator/
I going hysteria on that one as well especially the last five paragraphs. Saw that this morning and this version is even more unflattering than the one I read. Maybe I didn't read to the end of it tho. Just a bunch of schmucks yucking it up kind of thing is what I thought. Trying to fit in with the good ol' boys. Good on the deputy not naming the senator for the world to see which it appears this article doesn't bother to mention.

News has always been about taking "facts" and developing an editorial position around them, usually to serve a political position.

With the vast amount of information generated by all media sources today, and the competition for the loudest voices, it was probably inevitable that "news" would eventually become untethered from anything resembling a fact, with the "facts" generated exclusively by the political position.

In psychology, this is usually referred to as "Borderline Personality Disorder", where the emotional needs of the broadcaster generate whatever false facts are necessary to justify the emotional position.
In thinking about hysteria or fake news stuff I kind of kept coming back to that first sentence there you got tho I couldn't think it through enough to put into words that weren't garbled. Thought about that while watching some historical documentaries recently as well.
Hmmmm, "borderline personality disorder". Would that be a dysfunctional society?
This jumped out at me when I read the article a second time from the fake news thread Pono started.

"Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture."

Almost sounds like Huxley is pulling away down the stretch but damn if I ever heard of him. Book rings a bell tho.  (geez, there a lot of stuff out there to discover, ain't there)
I was reading a little on Hearst a bit ago. For whatever reaons I wonder if Huxley was a product of his surroundings in that he had more of that sensational news and the wars with it of that time around him or in front of him than Orwell had. Both are about that age it seems.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 08, 2017, 04:32:41 PM
So you're not debating here Tom?....now I'm really confused..... :o

A10...the fact that you can feign offense to insults while tossing them out yourself tells me all I need to know. Questioning your ability for critical thought as a scientist when you've given it as evidence of the same elsewhere?.....seems like fair game to me. I'm not about to be concerned on your opinion of who is winning an argument especially since it's obviously based on a lesson you failed to learn yourself.
In your opinion the attacking of Trump is simply a new approach. Yeah i guess they haven't been attacking him up until now..... :o :o ::). I didn't know that you could wear blinders and rose colored glasses at the same time.

I think I'm simply going to have to bow out of this one. I consider myself a conservative leaning libertarian. I'm liberal on many social issues, centrist on most others, and conservative on a select few. I despise Trump personally and don't agree with some of what he's doing and most of his tactics. I've come to the understanding though that if you don't recognize the bias, hysteria, and hype.....form BOTH sides......that you are PART of the problem. Until we can have a conversation based on compromise there is no solution.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 08, 2017, 06:25:59 PM
Is this ok? Is reporting this "hysterical"? Should we not be critical? I would submit this: I don't care what else he has ever said about anything. I don't care what any media outlet has ever reported, "hysterical" or not. This one single statement is an illegal abuse of power that requires impeachment.
http://www.learnprogress.org/trump-tape-threatening-senator/

Wow. I'm going to stick with your early comment that you aren't a lawyer. I'd add "hasn't the tiniest bit of understanding about the constitution and what it says" to that characterization.

Bob and I have differing politics, but a similar viewpoint on these general issues. You are not going to form useful opinions from current reporting, unless you are extremely careful and already know a great deal about the people being reported upon.

There is virtually no balance. Where is the in-depth look at why democrats were so firmly aligned against the confirmation of a Secretary of Education that they pulled out every stop and called in every favor to block her. I'm kind of wondering why not even Faux News asked that kind of question. It's an interesting issue. Secretary of Education is pretty much a do-nothing post. Why all the fervor? I have some theories, but I don't have any way to confirm them--because no one is looking behind the curtain.

How come? I assume none of you are naive enough to think it has anything to do with lack of qualifications.

I also find it amazing that anyone would object to the term "hysterical" in characterizing news reportage. I can't think of a better word.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 09, 2017, 04:03:17 AM
I'm sure you'll call this "hysterical" reporting. But I just find it funny.

Watch this vid first: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2017/jan/27/trump-may-hold-hands-white-house-video

Then read this: http://jezebel.com/donald-trump-can-absolutely-walk-up-and-down-stairs-lik-1791749860

Maybe he should get some SUP lessons? That would help him with his balance, right?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: freetobeme on February 09, 2017, 06:34:50 AM
I'm sure you'll call this "hysterical" reporting. But I just find it funny.

Watch this vid first: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2017/jan/27/trump-may-hold-hands-white-house-video

Then read this: http://jezebel.com/donald-trump-can-absolutely-walk-up-and-down-stairs-lik-1791749860

Maybe he should get some SUP lessons? That would help him with his balance, right?

LOL. I love articles, videos, cartoons, skits, memes and art that paints Trump in a poor light and pokes fun at him. Trump satire is the absolute best. Def not hysteria but def not news. But some news outlets and some individuals will try to pass it on as so. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 09, 2017, 07:09:32 AM
Trump is the best thing that's happened to new media and SNL in decades. He's making them all a great deal of money. Part of his economic plan no doubt.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on February 09, 2017, 09:23:43 AM
South  Park  is  giving  up

“[Trump] is really hard to make fun of and in the last season of South Park, which just ended a month-and-a-half ago,” Trey Stone says in the video interview. “We were really trying to make fun of what was going on but we couldn’t keep up and what was actually happening was much funnier than anything we could come up with. So we decided to kind of back off and let them do their comedy and we’ll do ours.”
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 09, 2017, 09:49:31 AM
It's interesting to look back at this article from July 2015 and see how prophetic it was:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/stop-laughing-at-donald-trump/2015/07/17/f334f9b6-2bdd-11e5-a250-42bd812efc09_story.html?utm_term=.ea7f755de787

If this is right, beyond Trump the US could be in for more election cycles dominated by angry older white people (especially men) voting for other angry older white men.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 09, 2017, 10:03:01 AM

§ 2635.702 Use of public office for private gain.
An employee shall not use his public office for his own private gain, for the endorsement of any product, service or enterprise, or for the private gain of friends, relatives, or persons with whom the employee is affiliated in a nongovernmental capacity, including nonprofit organizations of which the employee is an officer or member, and persons with whom the employee has or seeks employment or business relations. The specific prohibitions set forth in paragraphs (a) through (d) of this section apply this general standard, but are not intended to be exclusive or to limit the application of this section.

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/829356871848951809

She added: "Go buy Ivanka's stuff, is what I would say. I hate shopping — I'm going to buy stuff today."
http://www.businessinsider.com/kellyanne-conway-go-buy-ivankas-stuff-2017-2
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUPcheat on February 09, 2017, 11:46:25 AM

§ 2635.702 Use of public office for private gain.
An employee shall not use his public office for his own private gain, for the endorsement of any product, service or enterprise, or for the private gain of friends, relatives, or persons with whom the employee is affiliated in a nongovernmental capacity, including nonprofit organizations of which the employee is an officer or member, and persons with whom the employee has or seeks employment or business relations. The specific prohibitions set forth in paragraphs (a) through (d) of this section apply this general standard, but are not intended to be exclusive or to limit the application of this section.

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/829356871848951809

She added: "Go buy Ivanka's stuff, is what I would say. I hate shopping — I'm going to buy stuff today."
http://www.businessinsider.com/kellyanne-conway-go-buy-ivankas-stuff-2017-2

I guess this is why our public servants in Washington always leave much wealthier than they were, even if they were indicted or even bankrupted before they arrived.  It's because they are toiling 24/24 for the welfare of the public and have no time to concern themselves with accumulating personal wealth.

This must be one of the most routinely broken laws ever.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 09, 2017, 12:19:48 PM
Dump Trump.
Yvon Chouinard for president!

http://www.tetongravity.com/story/news/patagonia-withdraws-of-outdoor-retailer

Read Chouinard's full essay here.
   http://www.patagonia.com/blog/2017/01/the-outdoor-industry-loves-utah-does-utah-love-the-outdoor-industry/

I was hesitating whether I really needed that cool new Patagonia jacket. It was perfect but just a bit pricey. Like it but figured I'd find it on sale some day with a bit of luck.

After seeing this I called the shop today and they set it aside for me. I'm paying full price and proud to do so.

Cool values Patagonia. Yvon always thinks about what the right thing to do is.

Chapeau!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 09, 2017, 01:33:07 PM
I guess this is why our public servants in Washington always leave much wealthier than they were, even if they were indicted or even bankrupted before they arrived.  It's because they are toiling 24/24 for the welfare of the public and have no time to concern themselves with accumulating personal wealth.

This must be one of the most routinely broken laws ever.

So you think it is fine?

Here is my take: It is not okay. Ever. If someone flaunts it, and publicly shows it, immediate action needs to be taken (due process of course). I think action needs to be taken if there are suspicions and certainly several senators and other public servants have been jailed for it. It isn't okay and excusing it with everybody else does it, doesn't hold (not saying that is your opinion).
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 09, 2017, 06:29:35 PM
I have to rescind my criticism of the De Vos confirmation coverage, I've recently seen several opinion pieces and some actual news coverage that looks more deeply into the motivation behind the fervor. There were two opinion pieces in the WSJ that seem well reasoned. Not exactly along the lines of my suspicions, but similar.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 09, 2017, 06:39:58 PM
"If you are scared of Muslims then you should also be scared of household furniture and toddlers".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/omar-alnatour/muslims-are-not-terrorist_b_8718000.html
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 09, 2017, 09:13:27 PM
I fundamentally disagree with the notion of discriminating against individuals because of their faith or religion.

Glad to see the 9th US Circuit Court of Appeals would not block the ruling that halted Trump’s muslim ban. The unanimous ruling said the government had not proved the terror threat justified the ban. Duh.

Trump is going to react badly to this. He already is.

That South Park announcement is hilarious.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 09, 2017, 09:21:55 PM

 Secretary of Education is pretty much a do-nothing post. Why all the fervor?
 …
 

 The US has many of the top education institutions in the world. But at the same time the basic education for everyone is pretty worrying. Take a peek how it compares on a world scale. 
 
 I would think a solid education system is a key competitive advantage for a nation.
 
 And makes a nation a safer place faced with the new recruiting tactics of bad hombres.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 10, 2017, 12:16:18 AM
It is, and we don't have one. But that doesn't seem to have much to do with this issue. My curiosity has to do with the nature of the position. K though 12 education is largely a local function, state and city funded--the feds fund less than ten percent. The feds have some regulatory powers but other than some esoteric union interests, the direction from the top doesn't have a huge amount of power.

I thought at first the battle was about charter schools, but that doesn't make much sense--again, a largely local issue--not something that should drive a federal level propaganda war. 

I don't understand what the core issues are that could be driving the democrats to chose this as a battleground. I keep coming back to union interests, but I don't understand what the unions consider the threat to be.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 10, 2017, 02:46:16 AM


That was then:
(Pure awesomeness: there’s a story about the lead up to that event that went down on the shores I paddle past on a regular basis. One that has become an example of brilliant emotional intelligence in negotiation.)

http://youtu.be/GCO9BYCGNeY


This is now:
(Not sure this is going to become a shining example of negotiated entente. So far it’s headed the other direction.)

http://youtu.be/_RSF-xVsGGk
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Admin on February 10, 2017, 03:06:48 AM
I don't understand what the core issues are that could be driving the democrats to chose this as a battleground.

You see, you smart guys are always looking for smart answers.

This is simple politics.  You have a billionaire (maybe) heir appointing a billionaire (definitely) heiress with zero credentials.  Perfection.  Want to take back some seats?  These are great voting points.  Look who filled filled the swamp.  Just say the word Billionaire aloud in your best Bernie accent a few times.  That should do it.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on February 10, 2017, 04:23:44 AM
The idea around charter schools is to take a huge pile of public money, federal, state and local, and to make it private. They were originally suggested by Al Shanker — yes, that Al Shanker — as “laboratories of innovation.” Unfortunately they've become part of a system of privatizing public monies.

I could go on and on about why charters and Betsy Devos's strategies are bad for public schools, especially because they take funds from needy schools. That's the biggest issue. As well, most charters are run by people who aren't experienced educators. There isn't much innovation going on there. Education is not a field for amateurs. It's a complicated subject requiring expertise. I'm a mid-career teacher, and I'm still learning so much about my field.

What Betsy DeVos seems oblivious to is how to educate kids in poverty. A public school in an impoverished neighborhood is often one of the only stable elements in that community. It may have many problems, but it is doing its best to solve it. If you want to help the kids in the school, well help the school. Very simple. Stop subjecting low-income schools to budget cuts and belt-tightening, and give those teachers what they need. Kids in poverty require a lot of resources to educate. Judging a school of this nature as “failing” these days means that the school has been failed.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: southwesterly on February 10, 2017, 09:36:03 AM
 Trump is good at knowing his target audience.

 Frickin' morans.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Admin on February 10, 2017, 10:06:40 AM
Hah!  He mispelled Gouda. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUP Leave on February 10, 2017, 10:41:46 AM
I am pretty interested in your inputs regarding DeVos -  I. Spoonbill. I have been arguing with my wife each morning about the SecEd.

My wife is a school counselor in an elementary school with free and reduced lunch over 50% (poor district). It is the district my kids go to as well. I agree with you that in a poor area, the school provides so much of not only stability, but many general services for the folks there. I have had a conversation with our superintendent (he and I had been drinking a bit, sitting in the back booth of a dark bar talking sports and politics) and I told him that his performance in his job had control over the value of my and everyone in the district's home values. It was shocking to see how it processed in his mind.

He said to me: "Why should I have that much power? My job is education."  I said "You have the talent, tenacity, and vision to have this much power, but you are hamstrung by the politics of your business." The fact is the unions place in the teachers and public service sector need's to be reduced or abolished. I have to go to lots of teacher parties, and this statement has not won me much favor with my wife's co-workers (or my wife). I always hear the argument that most teachers are hard working, dedicated, using their own money and so on. I totally agree, but there is a percentage say 10% that are spawned out, mailing it in, or just aren't good. While that is a small percentage of the overall group, they are not seeing 10% of the students. They are seeing 25% of the students, which is enough to make a moderately performing district a failing district.

Betsy DeVos is a secondary cabinet member, who basically can state overall policy but who has fairly dull teeth. The melt-down over her seems completely unjustified. Everyone is making noise about lack of qualifications, but what qualifications do you want her to have? If she is an expert at the ins-and outs of education, then her opinion is going to be slanted towards the status quo, or even worse some other hare-brained scheme. I hope her hare brained scheme is reduction of the fed's fingers on our education. The states have and should retain the most power over education. IMO the fed needs to de-regulate its grip over schools/states further. Education is local - allow the states to determine if school choice is required and where the money is best spent for the education of the kids. The fed should ensure the state's rights for this, but never make it a mandate.

Beyond that, pushing for Right to Work in each state (by each state) is the next step. Put power in  the hands of administrators. Right now I see principals in schools as basically babysitters for adults (teachers and support staff), when they should be leaders of adults with a common goal. Beyond that, I think that teacher certification should NOT be a requirement to get a job as a teacher. Why reduce the pool of qualified individuals due to a regulation? Make the regulation that they must have a certification within 5 years of taking the job. I think some people are natural educators, even if their degree is in something like psychology or physics.  Do the same for Administration- find quality administrators first, then worry about certifications.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 10, 2017, 10:47:00 AM
Trump is good at knowing his target audience.

 Frickin' morans.

I suppose being a moran is better than being an ignoranus...
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on February 10, 2017, 10:59:16 AM
Trump is good at knowing his target audience.

 Frickin' morans.

I suppose being a moran is better than being an ignoranus...

 Ha. Can you imagine being that guy now......or others out there with their pants down like this.
I bet he just hates it when someone goes "hey......where have I seen you..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_Kh7nLplWo
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on February 10, 2017, 11:20:10 AM
I think the melt down over DeVos is not solely about her lack of qualifications, but it is that coupled with the way she bought her way into the cabinet position.  Trump said he'd drain the swamp, but her appointment illustrates how someone with no qualifications with enough money can get a cabinet  position within a crooked administration.

There would be the same uproar over any other cabinet position if it was also so blatantly bought.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 10, 2017, 11:31:01 AM
Everyone is making noise about lack of qualifications, but what qualifications do you want her to have? If she is an expert at the ins-and outs of education, then her opinion is going to be slanted towards the status quo, or even worse some other hare-brained scheme. I hope her hare brained scheme is reduction of the fed's fingers on our education. The states have and should retain the most power over education. IMO the fed needs to de-regulate its grip over schools/states further. Education is local - allow the states to determine if school choice is required and where the money is best spent for the education of the kids. The fed should ensure the state's rights for this, but never make it a mandate.

This is such a backward argument, and it holds no truth. What do you do for a living? Do you think someone with no credentials or experience can come in off the street and solve the most complex issues you face? If you do then the value you bring is extremely limited.

Fact is that she needs to solve extremely complex issues, and you do not do that well by having no experience. It just doesn't work that way. You need expertise. The ide that you will be for status quo just because you have expertise makes no sense, and I would like to see you back it up. Status quo or not is not a function of experience. I what I think you might be alluding to is that people can be stuck in a context of "this is how we have done it for as long as I can remember and it will not change"....but that is not at all a function of experience, it is a function of personality and problem solving approach. Plenty of people with a lot of experience can be creative and propose solution that are good.

So you prefer the individual states solve the problems by themselves? Why would they do a better job? This isn't a function of locally responsive. The cultures aren't so different that education needs a completely different methodology.

Quote
Beyond that, pushing for Right to Work in each state (by each state) is the next step. Put power in  the hands of administrators. Right now I see principals in schools as basically babysitters for adults (teachers and support staff), when they should be leaders of adults with a common goal. Beyond that, I think that teacher certification should NOT be a requirement to get a job as a teacher. Why reduce the pool of qualified individuals due to a regulation? Make the regulation that they must have a certification within 5 years of taking the job. I think some people are natural educators, even if their degree is in something like psychology or physics.  Do the same for Administration- find quality administrators first, then worry about certifications.

WHAT???? Holy smokes, I think you are probably the best proof why not some random person should not come in and lead an organization like this. By letting any person with no skill in educating teach you are undoing 100 years of humanity getting better and more efficient at teaching.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 10, 2017, 12:01:06 PM
Trump is good at knowing his target audience.

 Frickin' morans.

I suppose being a moran is better than being an ignoranus...

 Ha. Can you imagine being that guy now......or others out there with their pants down like this.
I bet he just hates it when someone goes "hey......where have I seen you..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_Kh7nLplWo

BB rules!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 10, 2017, 12:39:35 PM


"My dinner with Bannon" by a senior researcher at the Cato institute.
Worried now?

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aftenposten.no%2Fkultur%2FMin-middag-med-Steve-Bannon-614904b.html&edit-text=

More on the Cato institute: https://www.cato.org/about
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on February 10, 2017, 01:03:58 PM
Hah!  He mispelled Gouda.
And also BARIN.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 10, 2017, 01:39:38 PM
The shitstorm over DeVos is not simply random people being outraged. It's coordinated and well-directed. There is money and power behind it. I assume it's unions, but it might be more. I don't agree with Admin that it's simple politics. Too slick, too coordinated to be just a talking point.

In a different administration and a different time some component of both sides would consider her to be a potentially good choice for the position, some wouldn't care, and some would decry her "lack of credentials".  Her lack of credentials as identified by the media stems from not knowing some inside baseball terms and not sending her kids to public school. Not too surprising as the chairperson of the American Federation for Children, which supports "school choice".

She didn't contribute to the Trump campaign--that's misinformation--though she's former chairperson of the Michigan Republican Party and certainly she and her husband have been long time contributors to the party. I don't recall many Secretaries of Education who were educators. And I'm not certain I'd consider that a qualification. In other words, I don't see anything in her history that says unqualified to be Secretary of Education.

It's something else. I don't know what.

I don't know squat about Mrs. DeVos, other than what I'm being manipulated into "knowing".

From the standpoint of the general public, I think the only substantial block of the voting public that thinks education doesn't need massive overhaul is teachers. There's not a lot of traction there for votes. So I don't see that as the motivation for the effort.

We've had many conversations here in the Random Zone about education. I think it's imperative that our country do much, much better, and I reject the notion that the solution is just more money. We may need to spend more, but it also needs to be spent effectively. A lot more effectively.

My thoughts parallel SupLeave's. I consider public employee unions to be destructive, I think there's no lack of evidence in support of that idea.  I understand the comment about certification as well. The world changes quickly. Teaching English and math--a teacher who graduated twenty years ago who hasn't burned out might do fine. Anything that has to do with technology? Good luck. The notion that certification trumps current knowledge seems wrongheaded to me. I accept and support Tautologies argument--in exactly the opposite way he means it.

And if we have actually improved so greatly over the last 100 years, WTF happened to our educational system and the performance of our high school graduates compared to just about anywhere else on earth?  Fifth in spending per student, 26th out of 34 in math, similarly crappy in all other subjects, and not statistically different from all the other low performers.

No room for imporovement there. It's got to be that we're not spending enough.

Add to the sorry results the fact that students who did well enough to go to college face a choice of a huge debt burden or forgoing college and we're not doing much to retain any semblance of technological leadership.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: DavidJohn on February 10, 2017, 02:47:52 PM
Mr President.. http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2017/02/08/donald-trump-mr-men-cartoon-just-superb/
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUP Leave on February 10, 2017, 02:56:02 PM
Everyone is making noise about lack of qualifications, but what qualifications do you want her to have? If she is an expert at the ins-and outs of education, then her opinion is going to be slanted towards the status quo, or even worse some other hare-brained scheme. I hope her hare brained scheme is reduction of the fed's fingers on our education. The states have and should retain the most power over education. IMO the fed needs to de-regulate its grip over schools/states further. Education is local - allow the states to determine if school choice is required and where the money is best spent for the education of the kids. The fed should ensure the state's rights for this, but never make it a mandate.

This is such a backward argument, and it holds no truth. What do you do for a living? Do you think someone with no credentials or experience can come in off the street and solve the most complex issues you face? If you do then the value you bring is extremely limited.

Fact is that she needs to solve extremely complex issues, and you do not do that well by having no experience. It just doesn't work that way. You need expertise. The ide that you will be for status quo just because you have expertise makes no sense, and I would like to see you back it up. Status quo or not is not a function of experience. I what I think you might be alluding to is that people can be stuck in a context of "this is how we have done it for as long as I can remember and it will not change"....but that is not at all a function of experience, it is a function of personality and problem solving approach. Plenty of people with a lot of experience can be creative and propose solution that are good.

So you prefer the individual states solve the problems by themselves? Why would they do a better job? This isn't a function of locally responsive. The cultures aren't so different that education needs a completely different methodology.

Quote
Beyond that, pushing for Right to Work in each state (by each state) is the next step. Put power in  the hands of administrators. Right now I see principals in schools as basically babysitters for adults (teachers and support staff), when they should be leaders of adults with a common goal. Beyond that, I think that teacher certification should NOT be a requirement to get a job as a teacher. Why reduce the pool of qualified individuals due to a regulation? Make the regulation that they must have a certification within 5 years of taking the job. I think some people are natural educators, even if their degree is in something like psychology or physics.  Do the same for Administration- find quality administrators first, then worry about certifications.

WHAT???? Holy smokes, I think you are probably the best proof why not some random person should not come in and lead an organization like this. By letting any person with no skill in educating teach you are undoing 100 years of humanity getting better and more efficient at teaching.

Thank you Taut, for the entertainment this Friday afternoon.

Me personally, I have a couple of businesses but by trade - I am a Professional Engineer (Civil P.E.) - it took 4 years of school, 8 years of on the job training and 2 tests to get my professional certification (plus a bunch of extra hours per year of training updates). When I am doing technical work there is only a small percentage of people in the world who can do it. However, and this gets to my point - I took  over (purchased) a surveying business, of which I only have a passing knowledge (1 semester in college). The business has exceeded my expectations and frankly has outperformed its prior ownership everywhere from gross/net revenue, technical proficiency, and production rates. The last owner was an actual surveyor (nuts and bolts, technical stuff, on top of management), while I will not even look at a survey. Why- because I am only big picture- set the policy direction and let the staff work it out. I have learned so much from being in this position that it has helped my other business (the engineering one) immensely.

Which leads to my point again - what qualifications make for a great SecEd? Is it vision for policy or getting tied down in the nuts and bolts of the business of educating kids? My point is and will remain - education is local. The Fed should fund education - period. For my money eliminate the Ed dept, and disperse the money to run it to the states. To say that the Fed Gov't is going to be able to solve the extremely complex issues with school performance is putting waaaaaay to much stock in the government. I operate from the opinion that most politicians are first idiots, and politicians second. No person in that position could solve the problems in our schools (R or D). If DeVos was some kind of former teacher, or administrator it would make no difference. Start going through the lists of federal student programs: "No child left behind" "race to the top" etc. How did they do, did they help or just add additional regulations and requirements to an already hard job? The Fed can't solve the problem - it is too diverse.

Right to work means that a teacher is not required to join the union to have a job. Nothing more or less. It weakens the union, and makes teaching a more accessible field which is what I am getting to. I want the best talent teaching my kids, certification be damned. Would you rather have some old near-retiree riding out the string (yet fully certified) half-assed teaching your kids physics class, or an enthusiastic out of work mechanical engineer?

Trying to apply a national standard for education, is VERY challenging, and only wastes time and money. I would definitely counter that the cultures are different. Schools should have the right to educate students to suit the job market, it changes way too fast for some national standard to keep up.

Here is probably the answer to Ponobill's question about the money. The standardized testing industry makes more money than the NFL every year. (Houghton-Mifflin, EST, Pearson, McGraw-Hill) check their lobbying payments. America has fallen behind due to the status quo, national testing has not helped. Colleges and the job market should be what drives education, not a nationally recognized (lobbied for) test.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 10, 2017, 03:04:19 PM
"My dinner with Bannon" by a senior researcher at the Cato institute.
Worried now?

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aftenposten.no%2Fkultur%2FMin-middag-med-Steve-Bannon-614904b.html&edit-text=

More on the Cato institute: https://www.cato.org/about

I'm always worried. Bannon is spoky. I'm a big fan of the Cato institute, of course. Pretty much a clubhouse for Conservatives Leaning Towards Libertarianism If Only They Weren't All So Batshit Crazy" (CLTLIOTWSBC). This looks interesting: https://www.cato.org/events/islamic-liberalism-real-or-false-hope  I more or less vote "false" though true would sure be nice.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: connector14 on February 10, 2017, 04:51:04 PM
Regarding unions,  it's going to be interesting to see if Tesla has difficulty trying to keep their workforce independent. I think the UAW would sure like to go after them. Elon is not a fan. He might just figure out a way to do the entire job with robots......he's about half way there now!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SlatchJim on February 10, 2017, 04:56:25 PM
SUP Leave, you very eloquently put into writing the very spirit of the rant I went off on this morning.  Well done my friend. :)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: seadart on February 10, 2017, 06:30:49 PM
The top twenty national educations systems based on performance do not have anything like the US system being proposed, where the  states can do what they want, religious leaders can set curriculum  and the national government stays out of the equation. Quite the opposite, in the top performing countries like Korea, Finland, Japan the national government plays a strong central role in guiding and financing the education system, and standardized testing through out the country is used to grade and evaluate all students and teacher performance and serves as a gateway for students who progress to Universities.

In both Korea, Finland and Japan education is held in high regards and teachers are treated with great respect (equal to how we revere doctors), not called worms waiting out their retirement.

The models where local religious groups control schools (Islamic Fundamentalists or Evangelical So Called Christians) or the Libertarian model "I've got mine, go find your own" (like Somalia or Mississippi) produce shit.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 10, 2017, 11:01:41 PM
South Korea has a population of fifty million--state level. Finland has five million--city level. Japan is 125 million--region level.

But hey, fine, if we actually build a model like that. But that isn't what we have. That would take a massive rework of our educational system and probably twenty years of work. A complete rework of who pays and trashing all state authority.  Sounds impossible and no one trusts the feds to do it efficiently or effectively. More importantly, try doing anything in the face of union opposition, or even anything less than full support.

It's more likely that individual states could build better systems, but some states would never get there.

We can take lessons from cultures and countries that excel, but there's no simple model to copy.  Kids in American public schools attend 180 days on average. Two of the systems you mention have a minimum of 210 (Finland has 190) but most students attend 240 days and Finland has a tradition of very heavy homework and tutoring. That automatically puts American kids perhaps 25%  per year behind.  You could start there. Of figure out how to get kids to do homework.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Admin on February 11, 2017, 01:33:41 AM
The shitstorm over DeVos is not simply random people being outraged. It's coordinated and well-directed. There is money and power behind it. I assume it's unions, but it might be more. I don't agree with Admin that it's simple politics. Too slick, too coordinated to be just a talking point.

This is all just blather.  Only one cabinet nominee ever has been rejected by the senate for an incoming president.  Trump was always going to get his picks.  He is also gunna get Gorsuch.  The fervor is showmanship.  It is a short window where we get to connect emotionally that leads to nothing. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 11, 2017, 01:51:32 AM
You couldn't follow the model of Japan. It would not be "culturally acceptable". Their kids work so many more hours in school than yours it's unbelievable. It might not be even desirable - there is an argument that East Asian forms of education stifle creativity, and it is going to be creativity that is a driving economic force as robots take the more routine jobs.

Russia too. In my experience their students are used to working much harder than US or European students, and have built up a tolerance for it over many years.

So, in cross-cultural comparisons you do have to start asking yourself deep questions such as what the purpose of life is as far as your culture is concerned, and how this should be encapsulated within the education system, right through from kindergarten to university postgraduate. What is it you are hoping to achieve? It is unlikely you could compete with eg. Japan and Russia at what they do so well. The gap is too large, and parents and students alike probably wouldn't have the stomach for it, even if the taxpayer would be willing to support the vast number of extra teachers and associated costs it would take. Your culture doesn't value education highly enough, and some commentators argue that there is almost a lack of trust of intellectuals, perhaps typified most recently by the Ginger Whinger and his rejection of the overwhelming opinion of scientists on matters such as climate change. If your leaders do not value science your children won't either. This trend should worry you because in modern economies investment in the science base leads to an increase in productivity in the private sector, which helps the economy to grow.

The country with the best boffins is also the safest country militarily. It's having hoards of top boffins that will keep you safe, rather than defence spending per se. You need people who are constantly inventing new weapons, and ways to defend against those that others are inventing. And of course eg. cyber-warfare and its role in terrorism, state-sanctioned snooping etc. You can encourage or stifle the characteristics required in these boffins by the way you run your educational system.

So it is definitely worth having someone with a substantial knowledge of the conditions that foster good education at the helm IMO. It's a delicate balance, and that person may even need sometimes go against prevailing social trends. If the "free world" is going to stay competitive in the coming years, the basis of that is going to be education - and not just hours of schooling, but something much smarter that taps into and enhances your particular cultural strengths, whilst not letting your cultural weaknesses swamp them. This is no time for looking back to bygone eras.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on February 11, 2017, 05:21:17 AM
We do need some sort of standards. Of course we do but you shouldn't be forced to teach the same or use the same methods across the board.
I can't think how that could be a good idea. Kids everywhere need to know some of the same things but you can't fill up a day, every day for 12 years with the same stuff for everyone and expect it to be successful. The local teachers, board, parents, etc all need to have lots of input on how their schools are taught.



Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on February 11, 2017, 07:42:15 AM
I shouldn't have even gotten involved with this conversation, but now that I dragged my ass in, I'll say what I have to say.

Education is a field which everyone thinks they understand and very few non educators actually do. One of the things that I enjoy about this site is the level of expertise here. We have great respect for expertise, but somehow when we talk about education that goes away.

Teaching isn't what you guys think it is. The solutions you want to put upon schools will (usually) hurt teachers and students more than you'll ever realize. And this is the kind of thing which you won't understand unless you've done your time in front of kids, having successes, failures, kids who love you, kids who hate you. It's a place which requires wisdom, and modesty. What kills with one group of kids might be an absolute failure with another. The reason: you're dealing with people — kids. They don't bend to rules well and they are as varied as the world.

I could refute a lot of what you're saying, but I don't really have the energy. I don't want argue about this. I don't come to StandupZone to argue. I'm a mid-career teacher, having done this for about fifteen years. All I can say is that if before you make pronunciations about how teachers should be teaching, how how to fix schools, or why unions or bad, you should walk a few miles in a teacher's moccasins. If you want to refute me, go right ahead. As I said, I don't have the energy for any unnecessary arguments.

This is a far more complex topic than most of you understand. Neither teachers nor teachers unions nor public schools are the enemy to a good education. They want the exact same thing. Really. No ifs, ands, or buts. I could post pictures and videos of me in action, so you could see how committed I am to teaching well, but all my pictures have kids in them and it's against professional ethics to use them on social media. But this sin't about me. Most teachers feel the exact same way. And sure we get burnt out or depressed or negative sometimes. That's part of the job too. We're human, not supermen (and women).
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 11, 2017, 07:43:40 AM
The shitstorm over DeVos is not simply random people being outraged. It's coordinated and well-directed. There is money and power behind it. I assume it's unions, but it might be more. I don't agree with Admin that it's simple politics. Too slick, too coordinated to be just a talking point.

This is all just blather.  Only one cabinet nominee ever has been rejected by the senate for an incoming president.  Trump was always going to get his picks.  He is also gunna get Gorsuch.  The fervor is showmanship.  It is a short window where we get to connect emotionally that leads to nothing.

Certainly worked out that way.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Quickbeam on February 12, 2017, 01:45:49 PM
I shouldn't have even gotten involved with this conversation, but now that I dragged my ass in, I'll say what I have to say.

Education is a field which everyone thinks they understand and very few non educators actually do. One of the things that I enjoy about this site is the level of expertise here. We have great respect for expertise, but somehow when we talk about education that goes away.

Teaching isn't what you guys think it is. The solutions you want to put upon schools will (usually) hurt teachers and students more than you'll ever realize. And this is the kind of thing which you won't understand unless you've done your time in front of kids, having successes, failures, kids who love you, kids who hate you. It's a place which requires wisdom, and modesty. What kills with one group of kids might be an absolute failure with another. The reason: you're dealing with people — kids. They don't bend to rules well and they are as varied as the world.

I could refute a lot of what you're saying, but I don't really have the energy. I don't want argue about this. I don't come to StandupZone to argue. I'm a mid-career teacher, having done this for about fifteen years. All I can say is that if before you make pronunciations about how teachers should be teaching, how how to fix schools, or why unions or bad, you should walk a few miles in a teacher's moccasins. If you want to refute me, go right ahead. As I said, I don't have the energy for any unnecessary arguments.

This is a far more complex topic than most of you understand. Neither teachers nor teachers unions nor public schools are the enemy to a good education. They want the exact same thing. Really. No ifs, ands, or buts. I could post pictures and videos of me in action, so you could see how committed I am to teaching well, but all my pictures have kids in them and it's against professional ethics to use them on social media. But this sin't about me. Most teachers feel the exact same way. And sure we get burnt out or depressed or negative sometimes. That's part of the job too. We're human, not supermen (and women).


Excellent post Ichabod,

Absolutely agree with you. I've had a number of teachers in my family and all have been dedicated, hard working professionals, and yes members of the Teachers Union. To say in essence that you need to destroy the Teacher's Union to fix the education system is just plain wrong.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: freetobeme on February 12, 2017, 06:06:31 PM
Bernie. Just callin em as he sees em.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-democrats-donald-trump-20170212-story,amp.html
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on February 12, 2017, 06:11:47 PM
The intelligence community is withholding info from his team as well.... http://observer.com/2017/02/donald-trump-administration-mike-flynn-russian-embassy/
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: southwesterly on February 12, 2017, 07:48:09 PM
Typo alert!
To for "too".

Morans.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 12, 2017, 08:40:50 PM

Excellent post Ichabod,

Absolutely agree with you. I've had a number of teachers in my family and all have been dedicated, hard working professionals, and yes members of the Teachers Union. To say in essence that you need to destroy the Teacher's Union to fix the education system is just plain wrong.

I wandered a bit sideways here, I was really wondering about the nature of one particular battle. I'm not against shooting from the hip, but I generally do a fair bit of research to support or demolish positions I consider adopting. I didn't come to my conclusion about public employee unions and particularly teachers unions in a vacuum.

I read this study some time ago, and it lead me to a number of other interesting economic and social policy studies: https://education.msu.edu/epc/library/papers/HowUnionsInfluenceEducationPolicy.asp

It's not that long, worth reading, come to your own conclusions. Some of the citations are pretty interesting too.

I'm capable of changing my mind, but I haven't seen any analysis of the effect of unions on the education system that indicates anything but profoundly negative effects, from oppositions to reform, to skewed budget allocations, to undercutting administration, to massive spending on political control--the teachers union over the span of years spends more on lobbying than any other organization. The only two studies I read that showed positive effect--studies that showed lower dropout rates and higher performance by students learning from union teachers--turned out to be egregiously and obviously fiddled.

In the face of that, "just plain wrong" isn't really all that compelling.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 12, 2017, 08:55:12 PM


Yeah I think unions in their current form are not doing much good. Having been in one in different capacities, having seen how they deal with disputes (no my dispute) I've lost respect for them in general.
I do not think it is impossible to have good union and they certainly plays a role in keeping larger organizations from abusing employees, but today they are in many cases too strong. I tend to like balance.

At the end of the day they should be judged on the salary level of their constituents.....
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: TallDude on February 12, 2017, 09:00:00 PM
Typo alert!
To for "too".

Morans.
He has a great editorial dept. He doesn't really need them though. We meant what he knew.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 12, 2017, 09:07:03 PM
He looks a lot better when they crop off the top of his head.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 13, 2017, 12:12:51 AM


....and if you don't believe the article, just see the video at the end of the page. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bannon-trump-the-ultra-conservative-roman-catholic_us_589b6d50e4b02bbb1816c257

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on February 13, 2017, 03:47:36 AM
You guys only hear the stuff that goes on in the papers about teachers' unions. You hear about the fights, which happen sometimes. You don't see the inside stuff because it's protected by confidentiality. The fights to get special education kids their proper help. The fights to reduce class size. The fights to improve conditions in schools. Again, this stuff goes under the radar.

And yes, teachers fight for salaries too. Not for salaries that will get you rich, salaries that ensure a living wage. I don't think it's unreasonable that a teacher can afford to raise a family, or buy a modest house, or to not have to work two jobs in order to make ends meet. That's all we want, to be able to live in our near the communities we serve. That wage is different depending on the community, but that's all we want. Nobody gets into teaching expecting to get rich. If salary is your biggest concern (and I've seen teachers who think this) then you should get out of the field.

Unions also protect teachers against unfair prosecution, which happens much more than you think. Consider that your job in one of public service but part of what you do is push kids hard and give bad grades. There's constant pushback from parents and the administration. Some of it is valid (I've done some pushback as a parent myself), but some is “Why did you give my kid a C?” We need protection because we're constantly in situations where we could lose a battle, and then educational integrity goes out the window. I need to be able to give a kid a C, or fail him/her, because that's my job. We get pushback from this all the time. Upping grades. Socially promoting kids because it's easier. Putting kids in advanced classes who don't belong but the parents insist on it because it looks good on the kid's college application. I need some backup to be able to say where the line is, what's good education and what's bad. Are we perfect? No, of course not. I've made mistakes and I will continue to. However, I need that freedom to make some mistakes so I can become a better educator..

Part of being a teacher also is that your job doesn't end at dismissal. You have kids to help after school. You have parents to e-mail. You have papers to grade. You have lesson plans to make for every day. Sundays are grading/planning days for me. I rarely go out and do anything dramatic because those papers are waiting for me. You also can't talk about my job on social media, or even in public, because something you say might get back to you. This is especially true if you live close to where you work, like I do. The union is really the only safe place we have to talk about work issues.

I think most of you guys who work in private enterprise see things very differently. I get it. I worked IT in Fortune 100 companies where things are much more black and white. The thing which you need to understand is that education is a different type of system than private enterprise. Success and failure can be very different things. I'll give you a good example. Take a kid who's three years behind in reading, and with intensive instruction one years is now two years behind in reading. That's still failure in the eyes of all these metrics about failing schools, but it's really a success because a kid is advancing towards a goal of being on grade level. The thing is, the metrics won't and don't see that. Even if you metric advancement (which some states do) that has its own set of problems. There was a recent lawsuit on Long Island where a teacher was declared a failing teacher because her kids didn't improve substantially. The problem was, she was teaching gifted classes where her kids were scoring at the top of the chart. They didn't improve because there was no higher for them to go on the scores!

Kids aren't widgets. You can't throw out bad materials because there's a bad run. You have to take what you get and do your best. And sometimes that “best” isn't as awesome as you might want. We struggle too with kids who don't want to learn, with behavior issues and learning disabilities, attitude problems, and all those things you heard of. In the meantime we're expected to be supermen and advance every kid past these testing metrics. This is a crazy situation, but my union gives me at least some protection against all these things coming at me. The union still expects me to do my damned best, BTW. The union president recently chided me for raising my voice in class, which I appreciated. We all are expected to do our best, always. There's no tacit acceptance of mediocrity. Quite the contrary. I suppose that might not be true in all unions, but it sure the hell isn't where I work.

Unions also do not protect an incompetent teacher from getting fired. The union guarantees due process, that's all. You get a hearing and representation, but teachers can get fired. It happens. It happened to my father, who deserved it (which horribly screwed up my college career, BTW). They protect a teacher against a vindictive parent or unfair administrations. You get a teacher who has a different teaching philosophy than a principal, and the principal thinks that that teacher should go. This happens pretty often, BTW. The union protects that teacher, and if the teacher needs to change his/her way of doing things, the union will make sure that teacher gets what he/she needs to change.

That said, I don't love unions. Really, I don't. I'm glad it's there, but I'm not super impressed. Last year the head of the AFT was in my school talking to the union president. I shook her hand and listened to what she had to say, which was quite different of what I was hearing her say in the newspapers. (I'm pushing confidentiality here.) I bit my tongue. It's a bureaucracy too, with all the problems of a bureaucracy. The union tends to left-leaning, but in my school there are many republicans. That causes friction too.

A lot of this is inside baseball stuff. Unless you're in the thick of it, you can easily get a skewed opinions of unions. Keep in mind that unions are made of people who want the exact same things every parent wants, a good education for kids. There may be different opinions on how we get there — that's democracy for you — but we all want the exact same thing.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on February 13, 2017, 04:35:49 AM
BTW, I don't expect you guys to jump on my bandwagon. I just want to say that the situation is a lot more nuanced than at first glance.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 13, 2017, 04:37:01 AM
But the union's "fights to get special education kids their proper help. The fights to reduce class size", to an outsider, can give the appearance that they are just ploys to increase the number of teachers.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on February 13, 2017, 04:44:10 AM
Bean, you're right. That's how it can seem. I don't have a good answer to that.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 13, 2017, 05:01:42 AM
Why would increasing the numbers of teachers be a bad thing?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 13, 2017, 06:16:51 AM
A-10, increasing the number of teachers is a cost/benefit issue.

Everyone wants the right number of teachers for every situation, trouble is, no one can agree on what that number is.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 13, 2017, 06:41:01 AM
So, did you read the study? No?  I didn't think so.

Any union, any political party, any corporation starts to act in the interests of the entity and/or the people managing the entity, not the members. How that interest plays out is my issue, If it can be directed to improve the undertaking then it has value, but the way to ensure that is to have regulators in place. Public employee unions bypass control since they can directly and strongly influence the regulators.

Teachers undoubtedly consider class size important due to teaching quality issues, but the union, as an entity, considers it important because it means more members. That's why it's hard to communicate. The added motivation and conflict of interest is obvious

Anyone in any business can make the points you make Ichabod, If you're not on the inside, you don't understand the issues. Always true, and always ultimately irrelevant, because the people on the outside judge the result. A cook can detail how hard it is to run a restaurant, but if the food sucks, you just don't care.

The article I cited, by the way, neither presses for dissolution of the unions nor considers it possible--it just looks at the disconnect between what teachers and students need and what unions do as a function of their inevitable self-interest. You might have a useful and capable local union, but we seem to agree that your national representation is not what you'd like it to be. You could have a better union, and have a better outcome. But you don't have that now.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 13, 2017, 06:50:06 AM
We don't need no stikin' study!  ;D

A classic conflict in Union/Member relationship is that while the administrators of the Union desire greater membership to increase Union revenues and administrative compensation, the individual Members desire a more exclusive membership to ensure the preservation of their own positions.  At the same time, both desire a larger voting base to have broader political appeal.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SlatchJim on February 13, 2017, 08:28:13 AM
I agree with nearly all of what you have stated Ichabod, and my wife has been an instructional aid for special needs students for the last 16 years so I have first hand knowledge of the subject.
Unions also do not protect an incompetent teacher from getting fired.
This however I don't agree with, and have a number of examples of teacher ineptitude, mental collapse, and irresponsibility that was protected by the union.  The losers in this were the kids stuck in a classroom of chaos for that year.

In today's hyper-regulated society, most of what the unions were formed to do has become standard labor law. 98% of what a union does now is maintain an organization that collects money to pay the people in the organization.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 13, 2017, 09:29:00 AM


Hey look...even Bannon SUP's



Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 13, 2017, 09:32:14 AM
You realize, you just insulted the Grimm Reaper ;D
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUP Leave on February 13, 2017, 01:00:36 PM
Great stuff coming through this thread.

I skimmed/read the study that PBill posted and it really was an effort to pin down some cause/effect but the educational system is so broad and localized across the nation, the study can infer very little. 

ISpoonbill - I agree with you - teacher wages should reflect the median income for the area they live in. I think you should be paid more. I think your union dues should end up in your pocket, and you should get paid more than the other teachers you work with. Hard work and results should be rewarded. I also don't agree with you about teachers getting fired. I agree that yes they do occasionally, but the fact is long-tenured teachers are given a long rope, and even worse the union protects them against being re-assigned (even after they have retired in place).

I have plenty of teacher friends and have heard more than 10 times "She is a terrible teacher - or He should have retired 10 years ago - or I feel so bad for the kids in his/her room." It makes my blood absolutely boil, but they just shrug and say "union".

You posted something that I found very interesting. The unions protect you against parents, and their complaints/claims. This to me is a travesty. You should be protected by your boss/administrators and ultimately by your skill set as a professional. Because of union influence on the minutiae of the teacher's world, the administrators do not get to set policy for their staff, and so they can mail it in on staff control. This bleeds over into staff protection and effort in general. If a parent wants to complain about something the administrator should have the teacher's back. If they teacher has screwed up, they should be honest and the necessary change.

You state that if an admin does not like a teacher's style, the union protects them. Fact is the teacher's skill set and results should be their protection. If the results are there, the style is immaterial. If the results aren't there, the style should have to change to meet the goals set forth by the boss. Most football coaches have said "Don't tell me about the labor, show me the baby." I feel this way about work and tell it to my staffs all the time.

Ultimately, I don't think kids should ever think: "Get a job that is protected by the union and you are set for your career". I want them to know that the only safety net, or protection of their job is their own abilities to produce a product. As I said my wife is a school employee and works her ass off. I have told her probably 20 times, that if the dumb certification requirements were not in place, she would be the principal of her school. She is completely underpaid for her ability and effort. Summers off are nice though.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Quickbeam on February 13, 2017, 01:57:17 PM
O.K., I’ll start off by saying I don’t live in the U.S., so maybe your system is different than where I live.

But at least where I live, I just do not agree that Union’s protect poor performing employees. I do agree that there may be some poor performing employees in a Union environment, but more likely than not it’s because management hasn’t done a proper job of dealing with it. I’ll say it another way. If an employer or administrator is doing their job, there is no reason for them not to deal with poor performance whether or not there is a Union present.

The only restriction to an employers’ ability to administer discipline in a Union environment is the Collective Agreement. Most Collective Agreements where I’m from have a pretty standard clause that says something to the effect that management has the right to discipline for “just cause”. There are all kinds of case law that determines what just cause is, depending on the circumstances. As an example, the just cause discipline for an employee reporting to work late will be much different than the just cause discipline for an employee who steals from the Company. And to carry this further, the just cause discipline for an employee who has reported to work late 30 times in a year will be different than an employee who reports to work late the first time. Etc., etc.

Employers have the right to discipline as long as they discipline for just cause and are supported by the relevant case law. If an employer has done their due diligence, has issued discipline for just cause and both the discipline itself and the level of discipline are supported by case law, it is a very rare circumstance where the Union will be able to have the discipline dismissed.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 13, 2017, 05:25:09 PM
The history of teachers unions here in the US is startling to say the least QB.  Before unions, teachers were low paid and underappreciated...wait, let me do more research, and I'll get back to you.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 13, 2017, 06:10:55 PM
Interesting comments Quickbeam. But consider this case--what happens when the management is controlled by the Union? At the national level, that's what the US Teachers union works to do.

Over the last six years, the US Teachers unions spent over 400 million on state elections. 95% of the state money going to elect Democrats. Not too hard to see why they're a little freaked out after the most recent election. You might think the aim of that money is totally altruistic, that they believe fervently in the democratic party, in which case we don't have much more to talk about.

Politicians care about two things--money and votes. Read a bit about "machine politics". It's eye opening.

It's very hard to improve any system when most of the players, including those controlling money and power, are working hard against you.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on February 13, 2017, 07:41:46 PM
Guys, if you want to believe the worst about teachers and teachers' unions, go ahead. I can't stop you. I just know that this idea of teachers unions being the scourge of America to be pretty stupid. It's also terribly disheartening to the profession. We've been targeting as public enemy #1 for years, and frankly I feel like I get the crap beaten out of me over and over again by people who can't stand or mistrust what I do or stand for.

I'll give an example of some misinformation: the whole recruiting teachers because it's good for unions idea. This is how getting a teacher works in a smaller district:

1) A need for a position is established, usually by the staff.
2) The principal confers with the staff and agrees.
3) The principal brings the need to the upper administration and business office
4) The upper administration decides that the need is valid and conforms to the budget. (Federal special education law can force a position to be made.)
5) The locally elected school board agrees to hire for that position.
6) The position is advertised.
7) Applicants apply and the selected ones go through three sets of interviews, usually moving up the ladder of administration each time.
8) A decision is made high up to hire a specific applicant.
9) That applicant is then approved again by the school board after his/her credentials are gone over.

Big districts work a little differently. This process takes months, and teachers only have an influence in stages 1 and maybe 7 in group interviews. To go through that process to gain influence for the union is just silly. One person doesn't make that much difference anyway! Union dues aren't that much either. They only add up to a few hundred dollars a year.

I'm not a huge fan of unions doing political organizing myself, but the level of spending unions do is small compared to corporations. Buying influence is kind of corrupt — I agree — but the whole system is corrupt in the same way. Corporations do it. Individual people do it. (Both these groups outspend unions by quite a bit.) If you don't like unions doing this, then you have to change the entire system, not just unions.

Bill, I don't know any management which is controlled by a teachers union. Principals and superintendents are deliberately not part of teachers unions. The system is set up that way. They have their own organizations. Their interests may be allied sometimes, especially on the state or national level, but be assured in schools there can be fierce conflict between teachers and management.

SUP Leave, I agree with lots of what you say. Administrators should have a teacher's back, and often this happens, but administration is subject to a very different set of pressures. Principals and superintendents are hired by school boards, so they have a very different kind of boss than a teacher. Sometimes it doesn't happen, and you have hostile work environments. Thank God I've never worked in one, but I've heard horror stories.

If you want high performing schools, you need to get to the root causes of why a school is low-performing. Almost always this is poverty. The poor performing schools are almost all correlated with poverty. Now a teacher can have some influence over how well a kid does, but that's not the main cause of low skills. I'm simplifying, but that's the gist. Since schools are for the most part funded by local property taxes, you have impoverished districts not able to fund their local schools to the level that wealthier districts can. This furthers the imbalance, and because impoverished kids actually need more resources than others, this makes the school situation worse.

It's easier to blame teachers and their unions for low-performing schools I guess. But you're not going to solve the problem by beating up on the people who are working to help kids. If you don't like unions — fine. But don't translate that into “Unions are the cause of bad education!” The cause and effect just isn't there. If you want proof, the highest scoring state in the USA is Massachusetts, and they have some very strong unions. We all have horror stories of unions protecting incompetent teachers. I can'r deny it. I've seen it happen. But on a societal level that's not the cause of poor education.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 13, 2017, 08:21:44 PM
Ichabod, I don;t think people are saying that the profession of teaching is the same as unions.
I have been a member of unions, and they served no function for me.

I have seen how they deal with conflict, and that was ineffective to me.

I think unions have a place, but their role right now IMO have too much power...but that is not the same as teachers because most teachers are severely underpaid.


Obviously, I think is ludicrous when I see someone suggesting that anyone can suddenly become a teacher....its really just incredibly uninformed, and it only proves that more well educated teachers are needed.

 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on February 13, 2017, 08:35:59 PM
Taut, point taken. I get a little prickly sometimes about the topic. It comes when your profession is treated like America's whipping dog.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 13, 2017, 10:52:06 PM
Taut, point taken. I get a little prickly sometimes about the topic. It comes when your profession is treated like America's whipping dog.

Yeah and not the US is harvesting the benefits of neglecting education by having people with dangerously low information literacy and science levels....
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 14, 2017, 04:22:50 AM
Umberto Eco’s “Ur-Fascism” essay is no doubt a better piece of work but the list below is nevertheless thought provoking…

Fourteen Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
- Lawrence Britt


Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:
 
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
 
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
 
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
 
4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
 
5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
 
6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
 
7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
 
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
 
9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
 
10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
 
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.
 
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
 
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
 
14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 14, 2017, 05:04:39 AM
Not exactly ground-breaking stuff...

It's good to have healthy skepticism, but the differences in the conditions that existed at the time of those regimes and the currently in the US are pretty extreme.  Consider the government structure, the balance of power in particular and the speed and sheer number of news channels. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 14, 2017, 05:41:52 AM
^absolutely



Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 14, 2017, 05:53:23 AM
Well, he's only been in power 3 weeks. He's made about as much progress along those 14 defining characteristics as he could possibly have done. And he's already got a core of supporters who would now follow him no matter what. If for instance it was reported, credibly, that he'd abused his own daughter I doubt that it would make any difference to his support nationwide. He'd just say it was a media or political conspiracy and his support would probably actually grow. It's actually an interesting game to play: just what would Trump have to do right now to lose the backing of his supporters? Sex offences? Nah. Lying? Nah. Financial dodginess? Nah? Nepotism? Nope. Being an ugly, rude, stupid, vain, inconsiderate, pervy old man? No. No experience in office? No. No military service? No problem. Being an international joke? A positive advantage it would seem. Gets himself into stupid unnecessary scrapes every 5 mins through diplomatic ineptitude? Bring it on. Fires off Executive Orders without checking that they are legal? Great.

But it looks like maybe your own security agencies are starting to fight back. How did the details of these telephone calls get leaked?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38965557

But it's certainly very entertaining. I find myself checking the news every morning to catch up on the latest of Trump's escapades. The ineptitude is hilarious: it's exactly what you'd expect if you put someone with no experience of office in the top job. I'm beginning to wonder if he's actually going to get anything done at all.

So, maybe him and his Grim Reaper puppet-master are mastermind fascists with a grand plan in mind. Or maybe they are just a bunch of inept berks. Right at this moment it would be hard to tell the difference: the evidence would support either view. This could be a film by Mel Brooks. Springtime for Hitler, anyone?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 14, 2017, 07:55:02 AM

Big districts work a little differently. This process takes months, and teachers only have an influence in stages 1 and maybe 7 in group interviews. To go through that process to gain influence for the union is just silly. One person doesn't make that much difference anyway! Union dues aren't that much either. They only add up to a few hundred dollars a year.

I'm not a huge fan of unions doing political organizing myself, but the level of spending unions do is small compared to corporations. Buying influence is kind of corrupt — I agree — but the whole system is corrupt in the same way. Corporations do it. Individual people do it. (Both these groups outspend unions by quite a bit.) If you don't like unions doing this, then you have to change the entire system, not just unions.

Bill, I don't know any management which is controlled by a teachers union. Principals and superintendents are deliberately not part of teachers unions. The system is set up that way. They have their own organizations. Their interests may be allied sometimes, especially on the state or national level, but be assured in schools there can be fierce conflict between teachers and management.


Management isn't school administrators. Local, state and national government is management. And the spending is to control management.

My swag at union dues is four million members (NEA and AFT) times $700 (ballpark average) = $2.8 Billion. And no, the teachers unions don't spend less than corporations on political influence--they even spend more than the NRA. The total is a swag, but the spending level I quoted earlier isn't.

"Yes, I'm corrupt but Johnny is more corrupt". That always worked with my Mom. Especially when it' wasn't true.

You might wonder why teachers have become devalued. I certainly do. I think the K-12 system has become dysfunctional, but I can't see how it's the fault of the teachers, who I generally see as working hard in a unrewarding and unsupportive environment. I disconnect the antics of the national union from individual teachers, but from what I see the general public does not. What too many of them see is their kids doing poorly. Most of the blame for that lies with the parents, but teachers have become easy targets because the way the union manipulates the political system makes them appear obstructive and self-serving.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SeldomScene on February 14, 2017, 07:59:37 AM
Regarding General Flynn, I am somewhat surprised that I haven't heard anyone on TV question how he could possibly not know that the FBI would be monitoring the phones of the Russian Ambassador.  After all, he was a General and did most his entire career in military intelligence, ending at the highest levels.  Did he really think his call to the embassy was between him and the Ambassador?  Surely he received training and briefings on communications security.  Any civilian who has ever read a spy novel or seen a spy movie should have known that the call would have been monitored.  But then again, there's Hillary Clinton and her communications security ...

And regarding who may have leaked the info, let's not forget that former Acting Attorney General Sally Yates, a Democratic partisan, was in the loop on this matter.  Any statement that Trumps intel folks are turning on him is speculation, without facts being known.  But it does make for good conjecture. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUP Leave on February 14, 2017, 08:41:03 AM
Just real quickly on the teachers - I have a ton of respect for good teachers - hell even for mediocre teachers. It is a very hard job. As a matter of fact I spent a half day in my oldest daughter's kindergarten class 8 years ago, and was in awe of the job the teacher was doing. So much so that we have a yearly tradition of him leaving his car door unlocked on the last day of school so I can slip a bottle of Macallan 12 under the seat. I guess I will do that until he retires.

My opinion will remain that a powerful national union is not helping the school system (or even teachers get the recognition they need). It is a huge rent-seeking bureaucracy that (like most bureaucracies) once put in place, only serves to feed itself. A state teachers union may make more sense. Keep the protection and lobbying local. My opinion also remains that someone with a college degree and some enthusiasm is much more qualified to teach my kids than a tenured burn-out. Better talent for better results. Let professional certification be a way of getting a raise.

Of course everyone is leading back to the fact that it is the parents that really control a child's success and that leads back to Trump. The election was about the economy, it was about the economy, it was about the economy. Good parental units have good jobs. In America when we meet someone our most natural getting to know you question is: "what do you do?" The pride of having a decent job or a parent/spouse who has one is an important factor in a child's success. Improve the economy in some of these poor/urban areas, and better schools follow.




Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 14, 2017, 08:47:39 AM
I've been wondering exactly the same things Seldom. Have you been monitoring my thoughts? Time to add the aluminum chapeau.

Seriously, WTF is going on with the media. Are they so distracted that they can't think?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on February 14, 2017, 08:59:21 AM
I've been wondering exactly the same things Seldom. Have you been monitoring my thoughts? Time to add the aluminum chapeau.

Seriously, WTF is going on with the media. Are they so distracted that they can't think?
Yes, they have become blind with rage at loosing (couldn't drag Hillary over the finish line), as well as loosing their "news" monopoly with the advent of FNC, but also loosing to alternative "news" sources thru social media.
They have become a shadow of their former selves, so they can no longer think straight.
The quotes are intentional due to the fact that it's become increasingly harder to tell what's news and what isn't.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SeldomScene on February 14, 2017, 09:49:13 AM
I've been wondering exactly the same things Seldom. Have you been monitoring my thoughts? Time to add the aluminum chapeau.

Seriously, WTF is going on with the media. Are they so distracted that they can't think?

The guy should have been disqualified just based on the fact that he didn't know his call was monitored...

If you make a chain out of paper clips, clip one end to your belt loop, then run it down the inside of your pant lag to drag the ground, they can't hear your thoughts ....
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 14, 2017, 09:57:53 AM
Regarding General Flynn, I am somewhat surprised that I haven't heard anyone on TV question how he could possibly not know that the FBI would be monitoring the phones of the Russian Ambassador.  After all, he was a General and did most his entire career in military intelligence, ending at the highest levels.  Did he really think his call to the embassy was between him and the Ambassador?  Surely he received training and briefings on communications security.  Any civilian who has ever read a spy novel or seen a spy movie should have known that the call would have been monitored.  But then again, there's Hillary Clinton and her communications security ...

And regarding who may have leaked the info, let's not forget that former Acting Attorney General Sally Yates, a Democratic partisan, was in the loop on this matter.  Any statement that Trumps intel folks are turning on him is speculation, without facts being known.  But it does make for good conjecture.

I think they overestimated their support. They probably knew, but thought they could lie about it. I think this is driven by Pence who is pissed off at being misled..(and is looking for the highest seat).
Kind of like what is happening in the WhiteHouse...a lot of staff dislike Trump and the way he does things...and therefore there will be leaks.

Turns out Trump was warned: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/justice-department-warned-white-house-that-flynn-could-be-vulnerable-to-russian-blackmail-officials-say/2017/02/13/fc5dab88-f228-11e6-8d72-263470bf0401_story.html?utm_term=.69d2e5005b9b

It seems like there is GOP opposition mounting: http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/14/politics/republicans-want-flynn-investigations/index.html
Clearly, this is sanctioned by the GOP leadership...but comes from the second ranking because they want to keep the peace in case it doesn't lead to an impeachment.


Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on February 14, 2017, 09:59:58 AM
I've been wondering exactly the same things Seldom. Have you been monitoring my thoughts? Time to add the aluminum chapeau.

Seriously, WTF is going on with the media. Are they so distracted that they can't think?

The guy should have been disqualified just based on the fact that he didn't know his call was monitored...

If you make a chain out of paper clips, clip one end to your belt loop, then run it down the inside of your pant lag to drag the ground, they can't hear your thoughts ....
Maybe he did take some precautions but there were countermeasures rendering his useless.
Maybe he wanted to get caught. Maybe they're letting the line run out in hopes of getting a really big fish.
This whole thing is nuttier than squirrel shit.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 14, 2017, 10:10:56 AM
Returning for a moment to education, I found this interesting (from:https://rossieronline.usc.edu/u-s-education-versus-the-world-infographic/):

(http://i1313.photobucket.com/albums/t550/Area_10/us-schools-vs-international3_zpsgbxlof9t.jpg) (http://s1313.photobucket.com/user/Area_10/media/us-schools-vs-international3_zpsgbxlof9t.jpg.html)

Presumably, if you want your pupils to do as well as pupils in other countries, one starting point might be to ask what these other countries are doing differently. I doubt if the answer is anything to do with unions. As Ichabod says, it's probably more likely to do with how the country handles poverty, and the affect that has upon aspirations and compliance at school, and parental involvement in their kid's education. And this in turn probably influences teachers' working conditions and their status in society, creating a spiral of decline on all sides.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 14, 2017, 11:30:43 AM
If you break out the total US spending of $609B by state or region, you would likely find equally diverse results. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 14, 2017, 11:50:52 AM

Trumps new sociopath out there offering no evidence...
The whole world will soon see, as we take actions, that the powers of the president are substantial and will not be questioned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTt5SSLOuCQ&t=7m37s

(I know this is Seth Meyers, but the clip of Miller is in there).
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 14, 2017, 12:14:59 PM
.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on February 14, 2017, 12:16:11 PM
I wonder who'll be next to be out like Flynn?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on February 14, 2017, 02:07:50 PM
I wonder who'll be next to be out like Flynn?
Fingers crossed...
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on February 14, 2017, 03:34:14 PM
PBill, I appreciate your support. Just in terms of the union dues, very little of ours goes to supporting candidates. I belong to a very small union which is part of NYSUT, the state union. There is a fund which we're supposed to pay into which helps with this political action. I think it amounts to about 1% of our budget, and we don't even pay it half the time because the union is pretty split politically. I'm sure some more militant unions pay a higher percentage. Most of our union dues goes to stuff like dues to NYSUT, goodbye luncheons, summer camp scholarships for kids, administrative stuff, meals sent to sick colleagues, shirts, parties, and that sort of thing. In exchange for the dues we get NYSUT support, lawyers during disputes, that sort of thing. Day to day it's not something that influences our lives. That percentage may be different with other unions, but that's what I see.

In terms of the political spending, I agree it's corrupt. No question there. I think a political system where money talks is immoral. The problem is that this is how the political game is played, and we teachers are getting our heads handed to us on a national basis. Despite all that money, we ain't doing' so well. You could propose two solutions. One would be no outside spending and we have public funded elections. That would be fine with me. However, if you say other parties can make huge spendings politically but unions are not allowed, well then that's not right. If other parties are allowed to organize and spend politically, then so should unions. Otherwise you're feeding teachers to the sharks.

I guess the monkey in the room is that teachers unions are funded by teachers whose paycheck come from local taxes. Because of this and the public nature of their employment, unions shouldn't be allowed to organize or engage in political activities because that's essentially doing it at the public's expense. It's the “I pay your salary” argument. Okay, I get that, but that plays out on the local level. As a local teacher I am not to endorse a local candidate, speak about my job publicly, support a budget, or even make a political opinion about the community I serve. Not only that, I cannot speak about my job on social media, mention students, or even complain. The main conflict at the local level come from contract disputes, and those are about money. While the negotiations are confidential, teachers' salaries are not. You can find out the salaries of any public teacher with a little research. (Even mine.)

SUP Leave, most teachers contracts do allow for higher salaries with higher education. It's not a lot, maybe 2–4%. Younger teachers have the advantage of enthusiasm and energy. Plus they are younger so they relate to kids at a more personal level. I was able to do that once, and when I couldn't anymore it was tough. I had to find a whole different ways of teaching. I had to be different. And that's okay. The kids saw me as older, which I kinda was. Yes, you can get burnt out as a teacher. It happens. I've felt burnt out. You either get over it and find new ways to teach or you should get out. I've learned that I enjoy student teachers a lot. I enjoy the process. I used to teach grades 6–8, and now I teach English 7–8 and and drama, kindergarten through 8. Yes, I am running around my room with five year-old kids teaching drama, plays, dance, and speech. I either have to embrace and enjoy it, or leave. The same goes for other teachers.

Teacher burnout is a real thing. I think the answer is to do new things with your kids, and that's scary as you get older. When you've done the same lessons for years, they're like old clothes, comfy and satisfying. They also might not work so well anymore. Time to change things up! You need to keep embracing the new in order to do well. The world is changing outside your door. Your class shouldn't remain static either.

I wish I could still relate to kids on that personal level. Dammit, I miss that. I'm just too old for that now. I look like their parents. That's how they see me too.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 14, 2017, 08:22:03 PM

As the world turns...how much shit can stick to the side of one fat demagogue before his frame cannot hold him up any more?

Trump aides were in constant touch with senior Russian officials during campaign
http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/14/politics/donald-trump-aides-russians-campaign/index.html
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 14, 2017, 09:16:17 PM
Yeah so between comets actions and trump being what he is this should be much too much for the gop to swallow

I'M Livid
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/02/14/us/politics/russia-intelligence-communications-trump.html
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on February 15, 2017, 04:55:52 AM
Going to be a lot of fallout, http://www.salon.com/2016/12/14/gop-super-pac-linked-to-paul-ryan-used-illegally-hacked-material-against-democratic-house-candidates-report/#.WKOQjt6xIjG.twitter
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 15, 2017, 09:23:14 AM
Going to be a lot of fallout, http://www.salon.com/2016/12/14/gop-super-pac-linked-to-paul-ryan-used-illegally-hacked-material-against-democratic-house-candidates-report/#.WKOQjt6xIjG.twitter

What a world where the previous candidate who chose Palin has his running mate (McCain) is the normal one ehh...he was early out to say no one should use the hacked material as arguments or let it be part of the conversation because it influences democracy in a negative way.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 15, 2017, 09:34:33 AM
Putin must be laughing his head off at the US right now. He may have demonstrated how fragile democracy is in the internet era.

At least it looks like the mainstream media have finally started to do a little bit of work. Although we are still yet to see some really outstanding investigative journalism.

This is beginning to look less like 1984 and more like Keystone Cops.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 15, 2017, 10:09:47 AM
Putin must be laughing his head off at the US right now. He may have demonstrated how fragile democracy is in the internet era.

At least it looks like the mainstream media have finally started to do a little bit of work. Although we are still yet to see some really outstanding investigative journalism.

This is beginning to look less like 1984 and more like Keystone Cops.

Yeah if the politicians had the actual citizens as their first priority then this would be a non-issue...that value would guide them. But unfortunately, power does corrupt.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 15, 2017, 10:21:50 AM
...Time to change things up! You need to keep embracing the new in order to do well. The world is changing outside your door...

IS, how do you deal with the need for students to use computers (notebooks/tablets) in the classroom to take notes or follow along in an e-text, with the strong probability that they are also texting/surfing in class?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUPcheat on February 15, 2017, 10:50:17 AM
Just finished watching some YouTube videos on what various foreigners think of Americans.  Although about a fourth said they like Americans in general, about third used words like loud, obnoxious, stupid, ignorant, aggressive, arrogant, crazy and self righteous.  A few others said Americans were fun and friendly, but shallow. A LOT said that Americans were ignorant or not very smart.

They think our government is generally corrupt, and the American people don't see it and are easily led by superficial propaganda bombardments.  They also tend to regard us as a nation of intense commitments to sport and fringe obsessions.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 15, 2017, 11:11:08 AM
Just finished watching some YouTube videos on what various foreigners think of Americans.  Although about a fourth said they like Americans in general, about third used words like loud, obnoxious, stupid, ignorant, aggressive, arrogant, crazy and self righteous.  A few others said Americans were fun and friendly, but shallow. A LOT said that Americans were ignorant or not very smart.

They think our government is generally corrupt, and the American people don't see it and are easily led by superficial propaganda bombardments.  They also tend to regard us as a nation of intense commitments to sport and fringe obsessions.

In other words jealous...jealous, really, really, jealous  ;D

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 15, 2017, 11:28:50 AM
Yep, that's about right, I'm afraid. That is indeed the stereotype that foreigners tend to have of you. Sorry. Of course, Trump has thoroughly played to that stereotype: I think people assume that populations tend to elect "people like themselves".

FWIW I work closely with many US citizens and none of them conform to that stereotype. They are generally much more polite and better-behaved than we Brits in my experience, and I have been hugely impressed with them. So, I think that anyone who has had substantial personal experience of US citizens knows full well that this is just an unfair stereotype.

I am mindful of what one of my German colleagues said when he was told about the stereotype that Germans never have any fun. He said "Germans certainly have fun. It's just that we do it *after* the work is done". :) :)

In that respect, if my US colleagues are in a group together in a bar or restaurant, they will usually be the loudest there :) Why *do* you guys talk so loud haha!? :) This observation was actually first pointed out to me by one of my US friends btw, before you bite my head off..

Anyway, it could be worse: your national stereotype could be that of the British. A French colleague of mine told me the stereotype that the French have of the British. She said "you are all gay wife-beaters" :)

And I'm afraid that as stereotypes go, the Australians are seen as easily more sports-obsessed than you are!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SeldomScene on February 15, 2017, 01:59:11 PM
Well I for one make all my life decisions based on what foreigners post on you tube. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUPcheat on February 15, 2017, 02:01:04 PM
I'm glad none of the commentators have spent time in Santa Cruz.  I think the opinion meter would wobble even further south.

One wonders if the ghosts of the Pacific just make people stark raving in California.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on February 15, 2017, 02:53:14 PM
I'm glad none of the commentators have spent time in Santa Cruz.  I think the opinion meter would wobble even further south.

One wonders if the ghosts of the Pacific just make people stark raving in California.
(http://quotepixel.com/images/quotes/success/success-quote_13845-0.png)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUPcheat on February 15, 2017, 02:54:37 PM
It's entertaining, which is why I gravitate to such places. I can't drive into Santa Cruz before I am laughing right away at some character toodling along.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on February 15, 2017, 03:32:12 PM
...and it seems like the ones that are too nutty to fit in there move up here to Oregon.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on February 15, 2017, 03:34:12 PM
It's entertaining, which is why I gravitate to such places. I can't drive into Santa Cruz before I am laughing right away at some character toodling along.
Years ago the downtown area was a real treat for people watching. It probably had Telegraph in Berkley beat. I've wondered about that off and on and found this. Seems to ring a bell the quake did it in.
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/article/ZZ/20091003/NEWS/910039896
I really need to get back that way someday.
PITCHERS AND CATCHERS HAVE ALL REPORTED.
I always just thought I was loud, I didn't know it was an American thing.....whew.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on February 15, 2017, 04:11:18 PM
I remember seeing the most beautiful little chickie waltz through a street in Santa Cruz completely topless and carrying a bag on her head. I was probably 21 at the time and knew I would never see such perfect breasts again in my lifetime. Only spent a summer out there, if I had to do it again would have gone to school at UC Santa Cruz.

And suddenly there are Russians everywhere... http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35706238
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUPcheat on February 15, 2017, 05:36:49 PM
When I was in pro school at UCLA and lived on the Venice canals in 75 through 77, they did topless modelling shoots all the time on the beach around the pier.  It was pretty routine.

I still miss the cheek shots while driving of beautiful young girls wearing nothing bikinis riding bikes around Long Beach when I lived there in 80-81.

There were a bunch of tatted hipster photographers doing a pretty elaborate model shoot at Privates stairs a couple of weeks ago. 

Ironic, the grips and hangers on held a towel around the model while she disrobed and changed clothes. The pierced, tatted assistant looked at me like I was a perv for looking when I went up the stairs.  She was posing nearly nekkid, anyway.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 15, 2017, 09:03:41 PM
In that respect, if my US colleagues are in a group together in a bar or restaurant, they will usually be the loudest there :) Why *do* you guys talk so loud haha!? :) This observation was actually first pointed out to me by one of my US friends btw, before you bite my head off..


I agree. I hate loud talkers--women who laugh like hyenas on crack in a nice restaurant. Men who keep raising the volume instead of listening. It's some kind of national insecurity, coupled with public manners that can only be described as "I can do whatever I want."

The only positive thing about people being rude, staring at their phones, is that at least the STFU. Until they get a call, and they want everyone in the room to hear what they are saying.

One of my daughters was briefly convinced that her kids should be raised like wild Indians.  I told her she could do as she pleased, but I wasn't going to be in public with them. Fortunately she got tired of the misbehavior and started leaning on them The two boys had so many "time outs" they had flat spots on their foreheads.

They're older now, and can be reasoned with. I tell them that manners are a measure of who they are. The oldest boy has asked us for dress suits for Christmas for several years.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: southwesterly on February 15, 2017, 09:37:09 PM
This is pretty telling of the Trump administration:

A reminder: Trump did not fire Flynn, but he fired the woman who warned him Flynn was compromised   (washingtonpost.com )
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 16, 2017, 08:50:48 AM
Perhaps it's only "telling" us what we want to hear.

(Fark.com huh?)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: addapost on February 16, 2017, 02:20:34 PM
Perhaps it's only "telling" us what we want to hear.

(Fark.com huh?)
Ummm what exactly do you mean by this ^? It is a fact.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 16, 2017, 02:51:49 PM

So at what point does a man who claims fake news...and then obviously has a poor grip on realities loose credibility with his followers?
SO many of his claims are demonstrably and empirically wrong...to me that discredits everything. This isn't a guy who is attempting to get at truth and then makes a mistake, or who learns and adapts, it is someone who believes he is right by definition and that realities should adapt to him. That is incredibly dangerous.   
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 16, 2017, 02:55:51 PM
Wow - did you see Trump's press conference today?

The anti-Trump media are reporting it as unhinged. I wouldn't go that far. But his endless attacks on the media is getting tediously repetitive. If the media is reporting things that are untrue, why doesn't he take the opportunity to set the record straight in these press conferences, rather than just make vague accusations of "fake news"?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: southwesterly on February 16, 2017, 02:58:44 PM
Perhaps it's only "telling" us what we want to hear.

(Fark.com huh?)

Great thing about facts. It's like science. It's either true or not.

In this case true. No matter where you read it.

Maybe pass this along to King Donald. He needs a dose of science.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SeldomScene on February 16, 2017, 03:26:25 PM
This is pretty telling of the Trump administration:

A reminder: Trump did not fire Flynn, but he fired the woman who warned him Flynn was compromised   (washingtonpost.com )

Disclaimer:  I am not a Trump supporter.

That fact may technically be true and does make for good theatre, a good zinger or one-liner, but the firing of Sally Yates is a completely different event and in no way related to Gen Flynn's resignation.  It doesn't help "the cause" to posit such banal and brief observations which any moron can see right through. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 16, 2017, 03:31:16 PM
^^ Agreed. I'd really like to see the media and the opposition raise all this up about five levels. It's the way to neutralize him. As it is now, I just assume everyone is lying because there are so many bleats that are just obviously not true, or at the very least not true in the manner they are presented.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on February 16, 2017, 04:25:00 PM
Wow - did you see Trump's press conference today?

The anti-Trump media are reporting it as unhinged. I wouldn't go that far. But his endless attacks on the media is getting tediously repetitive. If the media is reporting things that are untrue, why doesn't he take the opportunity to set the record straight in these press conferences, rather than just make vague accusations of "fake news"?
I've clicked here and there and seen bits and pieces. I would agree with you there.  He didn't seem way unhinged but more flustered. His campaign schtick seems to be waning a bit.......thank goodness. I saw "chaos" as a headline to click and "mess" as well. He inherited a mess alright. Never heard him blame Obama...
I agree on the media thing as well..........getting old but cnn is one of the places I saw some and by golly if the stuff in the sidebar for other things to watch didn't have snl sketch like stuff for headlines attached to them.  I clicked here and there....lost interest.....couldn't be bothered. Maybe he'll turn them into the new national enquirer. Best thing to happen to them since before the internet. Hell, I don't know.
He almost seemed out of his league. I can't even imagine how that guys life has changed over the last 6 weeks. I think it is just starting to sink in.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: southwesterly on February 16, 2017, 04:25:07 PM
What was it that Michael Flynn do that was right? The secret calls to the KGB or the lying about it?

“I don’t think he did anything wrong. If anything, he did something right.” ~ Donald Trump

This was the president’s defense of former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn, who resigned Tuesday night. Flynn submitted his resignation after it was reported that he had discussed the Obama administration’s sanctions against Russia with the country’s ambassador, and then lied to Vice President Pence about the topics of their conversations.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tallguy on February 16, 2017, 05:43:26 PM
Speaking of science and facts, here is a recent article that speaks to The Donalds Administration's views regarding intelligent dialog, or fact based evidence...No need to concern ourselves w/ warming oceans, coral bleaching, fisheries collapse, or global warming generated changes....we will just deny the science.....


http://www.salon.com/2017/01/07/donald-trumps-glorious-victory-for-anti-intellectualism-drain-the-swamp-just-meant-the-eggheads/

Paddle faster, cause the incoming tides are getting bigger.....
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: southwesterly on February 16, 2017, 05:54:06 PM
On climate change.

On November 6, 2012, Donald Trump tweeted: "The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive."

You got a question about that?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tallguy on February 16, 2017, 05:56:18 PM
Realllllllyyyyyy hard to not see Melissa McCarthy, when looking at Spicey...HAHAHAHA!!!!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SeldomScene on February 16, 2017, 06:12:07 PM
What was it that Michael Flynn do that was right? The secret calls to the KGB or the lying about it?

“I don’t think he did anything wrong. If anything, he did something right.” ~ Donald Trump

This was the president’s defense of former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn, who resigned Tuesday night. Flynn submitted his resignation after it was reported that he had discussed the Obama administration’s sanctions against Russia with the country’s ambassador, and then lied to Vice President Pence about the topics of their conversations.

In the interest of fairness and using a fact based option, calling the Ambassador is entirely different than calling the KGB.  How would he even know who the KGB was and how would he get the number?  These guys don't hand out KGB business cards, you know.  The NY Times headline that Trumps people were in touch with the KGB is not supported in the least in the article.  The whole matter is under investigation, and has been since the first overhears.  It will be interesting to see where it goes but let's got get there on our own with conjecture.  For me, it's hard to fathom the General calling the Ambo and discussing sanctions unless Trump told him to or at least knew about it.  But we will know when we know. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: all~wet on February 16, 2017, 08:12:12 PM
I watched the press conference. Definitely a little hyperbole from the press... Trump wasn't compleeeetely unhinged. The proceeding was rather.... unusual. He did play the victim rather than the man in charge. The whole thing was rather helter skelter, unfocused, confrontational, devoid of specifics, loose with facts. You know... same-same.

The man looks tired. Frustrated. In over his head. I actually found myself feeling a weeeee bit sorry for him. Frankly, it seems he came into this thinking it was another version of "The Apprentice" with he and his over the top persona playing the part of president rather than actually being one.... dealing with the extreme pressures and responsibilities inherent to a very difficult, brutal, thankless position. I wouldn't be surprised to see him self sabotage/look for a way out... martyr himself.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 16, 2017, 08:32:09 PM
Perhaps it's only "telling" us what we want to hear.

(Fark.com huh?)
Ummm what exactly do you mean by this ^? It is a fact.
AP and SW. 

No, they are two facts which when put together out of context, become misleading. 

I am assuming Yates is the person you are referring to.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 16, 2017, 08:54:43 PM

This guy is crazy. No other ways to explain it. A poor grip on realities isn't cutting it anymore. Delusional is more like it.
"characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-news-electoral-college-ronald-reagan-biggest-win-claim-a7584481.html
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Quickbeam on February 16, 2017, 10:11:06 PM
Wow - did you see Trump's press conference today?

The anti-Trump media are reporting it as unhinged. I wouldn't go that far. But his endless attacks on the media is getting tediously repetitive. If the media is reporting things that are untrue, why doesn't he take the opportunity to set the record straight in these press conferences, rather than just make vague accusations of "fake news"?


I don’t know A10. I maybe wouldn’t call it unhinged if it was a news conference by some no name leader of some banana republic country that few have ever heard of. But this guy is the leader of the most powerful nation on earth. I think we might expect some level of sophistication given the position of power he holds. But it’s a far cry from sophistication with this guy. I mean really, who the hell cares how many electoral college votes he got? And why is he so fixated on it? And he can’t even get that right.

Would almost be comical if it wasn’t so scary. And I'll take what Tautologies says above and raise it. He's not just crazy, he's batshit crazy.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 16, 2017, 10:59:41 PM
Would almost be comical if it wasn’t so scary. And I'll take what Tautologies says above and raise it. He's not just crazy, he's batshit crazy.

Are you talking about when he defended the guy he just fired for doing what he fired him for by saying he would have directed him to do it if he hadn't? FUUUUUU##K
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 17, 2017, 03:41:24 AM
Wow - did you see Trump's press conference today?
...

Frankly, would anyone be surprised if he showed up wearing a crown and robes in front of those gold drapes and changes his name to Donald Sese Seko Kuku Ngbendu Wa Za Banga to spurt out that shit show of lies and shameless self promotion?

Meaning "Donald The warrior who knows no defeat because of his endurance and inflexible will and is all powerful, leaving fire in his wake as he goes from conquest to conquest”.


Oh! Right. He’s supposed to be the democratically elected leader of the free world.

America: you’ll get more accurate facts if you watch hockey than White House so-called-press conferences:
   http://youtu.be/RZusaswEBH4

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: southwesterly on February 17, 2017, 10:32:36 PM
This is what happens when Trump is called out on his alternative "facts", what I call lies.

I'm so glad that somebody got the chance to bust him in person.

https://youtu.be/KUdZgbDIe-w
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 18, 2017, 12:53:28 AM
All Trump's supporters see there is a bunch of smart-arse intellectual libtards trying to trip up a decent man. You see a decent man trying to extract the truth from a charlatan. I just don't think it will matter one jot to the "Trump-ette" cheerleaders how many times he's called on the "facts". Trump has so successfully convinced them that there is a grand media conspiracy going on that they will just feel sorry for Him. And in fairness to Trump, the wall-to-wall anti-Trump media, with much of it rather petty, does seem to be playing to that narrative.

Surely a problem Trump might face is simple media over-exposure? We just see so much of him, and saying the same things in the same way, that I'm already feeling like he's been prez for 4 years not 4 weeks. Surely he can't keep up this level of media exposure? He'll just become this annoying repetitive background buzzing noise, even if you support him. It's exhausting for us news-watchers to follow every twist and turn of his presidency, so I can't imagine how it must be for an old(er) gentleman like him. The problem with the Trump "direct communication with the voters" strategy is that it requires him to be in effect a full-time press secretary rather than delegate to others - and let's face it, Spicer and Conway have managed to make themselves the story rather than relate the story, which is a bit of a media no-no. So I'm not sure how long they are gonna last.

Is anything actually getting done, behind the scenes? Is all this media fluff a cover for something more substantial? Maybe it is actually all there is....?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 18, 2017, 08:19:59 AM

Frankly, would anyone be surprised if he showed up wearing a crown and robes in front of those gold drapes and changes his name to Donald Sese Seko Kuku Ngbendu Wa Za Banga to spurt out that shit show of lies and shameless self promotion?

Meaning "Donald The warrior who knows no defeat because of his endurance and inflexible will and is all powerful, leaving fire in his wake as he goes from conquest to conquest”.



I wasn't going to bother posting here anymore but I have to admit thats a pretty funny visual and title.....and I can absolutely see him that way...always thought his ridiculously gaudy homes reflected his character.
(http://hbu.h-cdn.co/assets/16/19/980x639/gallery-1462816039-donald-trump-1.jpg)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: supthecreek on February 18, 2017, 08:41:46 AM
Morning lefties.
I sure am glad you have this thread to pontificate on.... cuz you got nothing else.
No President
No Congress
No Senate
Almost No Governors
Bleeding seats in every state. It must be frustrating to be so unappreciated all the time. ;D

ok, ok.... I'll say it for you, so you don't have to trouble yourselves
STFU creek, you “racist, Nazi, alt-right, misogynist, sexist, Islamophobe, xenophobe, deplorable climate-denier, uneducated, angry white man, drone cheerleader”

Enjoy your day scouring the interweb for more nasty things to say about the moron supporters of DT. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 18, 2017, 08:46:45 AM
Et tu STC?   ;D
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: ninja tuna on February 18, 2017, 08:57:32 AM
 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on February 18, 2017, 09:25:37 AM
Morning lefties.
I sure am glad you have this thread to pontificate on.... cuz you got nothing else.
No President
No Congress
No Senate
Almost No Governors
Bleeding seats in every state. It must be frustrating to be so unappreciated all the time. ;D

ok, ok.... I'll say it for you, so you don't have to trouble yourselves
STFU creek, you “racist, Nazi, alt-right, misogynist, sexist, Islamophobe, xenophobe, deplorable climate-denier, uneducated, angry white man, drone cheerleader”

Enjoy your day scouring the interweb for more nasty things to say about the moron supporters of DT. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
You have to admit, they seem to be organized, at least the ones in the streets.
No big surprise here, in fact what took them so long to expose this?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Obama-linked activists have a ‘training manual’ for protesting Trump
By Paul Sperry
February 18, 2017

An Obama-tied activist group training tens of thousands of agitators to protest President Trump’s policies plans to hit Republican lawmakers supporting those policies even harder this week, when they return home for the congressional recess and hold town hall meetings and other functions.
Organizing for Action, a group founded by Obama and featured prominently on his new post-presidency website, is distributing a training manual to anti-Trump activists that advises them to bully GOP lawmakers into backing off support for repealing ObamaCare, curbing immigration from high-risk Islamic nations, and building a border wall.

In a new Facebook post, OFA calls on activists to mobilize against Republicans from now until Feb. 26, when “representatives are going to be in their home districts.”

*snip*
As The Post reported, OFA boasts more than 250 offices nationwide and more than 32,000 organizers, with another 25,000 actively under training. Since November, it’s beefed up staff and fundraising, though as a “social welfare” non-profit, it does not have to reveal its donors.

These aren’t typical Black Lives Matter or Occupy Wall Street marchers, but rather professionally trained organizers who go through a six-week training program similar to the training — steeped in Alinsky agitation tactics — Obama received in Chicago when he was a community organizer.

Chicago socialist Saul Alinsky, known by the left as “the father of community organizing,” taught radicals to “rub raw the sores of discontent” and create the conditions for a “revolution.” He dedicated his book, “Rules for Radicals,” to “Lucifer.” Michelle Obama quoted from the book when she helped launch OFA in 2013.

Obama appears to be behind the anti-Trump protests. He praised recent demonstrations against Trump’s travel ban. And last year, after Trump’s upset victory, he personally rallied OFA troops to “protect” his legacy in a conference call. “Now is the time for some organizing,” he said. “So don’t mope” over the election results.
He promised OFA activists he would soon join them in the fray.

For the complete story~
http://nypost.com/2017/02/18/obama-linked-activists-have-a-training-manual-for-protesting-trump/
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on February 18, 2017, 11:00:09 AM
(http://hbu.h-cdn.co/assets/16/19/980x639/gallery-1462816039-donald-trump-1.jpg)
Stoneaxe--is this at your new place?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 18, 2017, 11:06:32 AM
Ok, so now the Trumpettes are blaming Obama. Just like the Ginger Whinger, it's always someone else's fault.

Obama wouldn't have anyone to rally if Trump was conductimg himself with a bit more respect for his position and for the majority of US voters.

Here's the root of your problem:

US Election results 2016.

Donald Trump 62,980,160 votes.

Hillary Clinton 65,845,063 votes.

(Source: BBC.)

So nearly 3 million more US voters wanted Clinton than Trump.

So you bet if the majority of people don't get the President they voted for, then they are going to let their opinions be known. That is how democracy works.

So you'd better get used to the constant barrage upon Trump. It is the majority telling Trump not to dismiss their views. They will stop opposing him when and if he starts finding a compromise between his current extreme (and minority) views, and what the majority of the electorate wants.



Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: all~wet on February 18, 2017, 11:38:42 AM
LoL. Yes of course.... because only a lockstep "leftie" could possibly be nervous about Trump having the keys to the kingdom. 

Neither the media or either party will do it... so.... if we the people can't take ownership of our thoughts and government... find a reasonable middle-ground- we are in big trouble.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Subber on February 18, 2017, 12:36:52 PM
Seems lots of factions are "coming unglued,"
especially the media.

The worst are the incendiary headlines -
then you read the stories and there really isn't anything there.
I guess they do it to try to keep viewership up -
not sure how that is working for them -
really a turn off as it happens so much -
at this point, they've got pretty much no cred.
Don't know if they can sink any lower.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on February 18, 2017, 01:29:05 PM

ok, ok.... I'll say it for you, so you don't have to trouble yourselves
STFU creek, you “racist, Nazi, alt-right, misogynist, sexist, Islamophobe, xenophobe, deplorable climate-denier, uneducated, angry white man, drone cheerleader”
It could be the reason nobody has said that here is that nobody here feels that way.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on February 18, 2017, 01:31:22 PM
It's the deplorables vs. the insufferables. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on February 18, 2017, 01:37:13 PM
It's the deplorables vs. the insufferables.
;D
Or the Reds vs. the Blues, and if they fight too much the whole country will be marooned.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: southwesterly on February 18, 2017, 02:15:45 PM

ok, ok.... I'll say it for you, so you don't have to trouble yourselves
STFU creek, you “racist, Nazi, alt-right, misogynist, sexist, Islamophobe, xenophobe, deplorable climate-denier, uneducated, angry white man, drone cheerleader”

STC,

Hey, nobody said that you were uneducated. ;~)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 18, 2017, 02:30:51 PM
LoL. Yes of course.... because only a lockstep "leftie" could possibly be nervous about Trump having the keys to the kingdom. 

Neither the media or either party will do it... so.... if we the people can't take ownership of our thoughts and government... find a reasonable middle-ground- we are in big trouble.
What he said. The louder the screaming from both ends the worse it gets. So damned tired of everything being inflated. If we can't stop the tribal finger pointing and see beyond the headlines... ::)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 18, 2017, 02:50:14 PM
Much ado about little. By the time summer rolls around Trump could ride a Harley naked through Rockville with Putin riding bitch and no one will care. The most over-exposed non-event four weeks in history.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Admin on February 18, 2017, 03:19:16 PM
I am watching Trump's Florida rally Live right now.  He is a really good campaigner.   I think he has a chance of wining the presidency.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on February 18, 2017, 03:26:23 PM
I am watching Trump's Florida rally Live right now.  He is a really good campaigner.   I think he has a chance of wining the presidency.
"Wining the presidency" ?  :o   Yeah i think you may mean P-R-E-S-I-D-E-N-S-Y ? What a moran.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Admin on February 18, 2017, 03:30:49 PM
Damn this weak barin!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SeldomScene on February 18, 2017, 03:42:07 PM
Ok, so now the Trumpettes are blaming Obama. Just like the Ginger Whinger, it's always someone else's fault.

Obama wouldn't have anyone to rally if Trump was conductimg himself with a bit more respect for his position and for the majority of US voters.

Here's the root of your problem:

US Election results 2016.

Donald Trump 62,980,160 votes.

Hillary Clinton 65,845,063 votes.

(Source: BBC.)

So nearly 3 million more US voters wanted Clinton than Trump.

So you bet if the majority of people don't get the President they voted for, then they are going to let their opinions be known. That is how democracy works.

So you'd better get used to the constant barrage upon Trump. It is the majority telling Trump not to dismiss their views. They will stop opposing him when and if he starts finding a compromise between his current extreme (and minority) views, and what the majority of the electorate wants.

As an independent who did not vote for Trump or Clinton, two things:  it is tue that Clinton got more popular votes.  But it is also true that in the big Dem states such as Cali, Washington and NY, many Republicans didn't vote because it's pointless to do so under the Electoral College system.  It is also true that the Electoral College affects the way that candidates campaign, concentrating on the few swing states that matter.  I don't see any Dems touting Bill Clintons win with 43 per cent of the popular vote. 

Secondly, from the looks of things, your assertion that Trumps opponents would be satisfied if he went to the center and moderation, "compromise" was your word, probably isn't accurate.  The only thing that would prevent the level of noise from the losing party would be to have one of their own in the White House.  Sadly, the notion of compromise dies when the Dems went all Pelosi. 

It's just so left wing, it's now out of the mainstream.  I had voted Dem previously, but doubt I will again any time soon unless they clone Sam Nunn.  Just the other day, I was in a National Parl Service office.  There were two bathrooms, both one holers.  Rather than just having a sign that said "bathroom", they had big elaborate notices that they were gender neutral one holers.  Since they were one toilet operations with locks on the doors, it is just a big political message to cater to the one hundredth of one percent of people who are transgendered and their "supporters".  This is the kind of stuff that people who are worried about losing their jobs, or people like me who have been hammered with radical increases in our health insurance deductibles as a result of the ACA, find to be unnecessary and in the way of good government. 

If both parties still had the word "compromise" in their vocabulary, this country would be far better off.  Most Americans are somewhere near the middle, but both parties are controlled by far left or far right.  That's why Trump is the Commander in Chief now.  There are a great many members of Congress in both parties who are sensible and moderate.  In the current climate of screaming bomb throwers, none of them would have a chance. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SeldomScene on February 18, 2017, 03:48:48 PM
I am watching Trump's Florida rally Live right now.  He is a really good campaigner.   I think he has a chance of wining the presidency.
"Wining the presidency" ?  :o   Yeah i think you may mean P-R-E-S-I-D-E-N-S-Y ? What a moran.

Shoot, I had to look it up.  It is Presidency, with. "C".  There's still time to delete this "Moran" post before anyone see it.   ;D
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: southwesterly on February 18, 2017, 04:13:32 PM
Safe to say that this pie chart applies to our shitshow thread.
Funny how that works.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: all~wet on February 18, 2017, 04:35:42 PM
Facebook/Twitter.... about the most vacuous bunch of overtly image conscious/psuedo celebrity mindrot.... too many align themselves with a persona/image/people they'd like to think they are like.... or one they'd like to present to the world... and reflexively share/pass it on. Those who don't align are shouted down.

The nature of our present day society/the computer age, media/political parties that are literally owned by big business/ a few special interests... is that we have to be MUCH more proactive than ever to get the full spectrum of information. It's like trying to eat right... much easier to ingest shit. And there is SO MUCH out there to sift through. Much... most is so very one sided. The very nature of how the internet/web searches works is by design it feeds into our confirmation biases. The more stories you read from one end of the spectrum, the more you are fed! One has to willfully, ACTIVELY search out news sources from all ends of the spectrum. It takes time, Energy. Things most busy people do not have. Seems most are content to sit back and be spoon fed their opinion.

Election night, I sat on my sofa and flipped the dial between MSN, CNN and Fox.... checked into a variety of websites across the political spectrum.  It was very striking. Would be difficult to tell they were speaking of the same events. Both sides have their points, both sides have more than their share of hype and fear mongering.

It takes a lot of work and personal responsibility to sift through the bullshit, maybe even contradict people you may like or respect. However, being fully informed, having a firm grip on reality and reaching ones own conclusion based on ones own intellect and conscience... I couldn't think of too many things more important and that represent what true independence and self ownership/reliance depend on.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on February 18, 2017, 05:41:00 PM
At least there is a lot of energy out there, which I would think is better than no energy, just so long as nobody damages property (oops), or other people (oops again), we should all be fine.  Right?  :-\
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 18, 2017, 05:58:29 PM
All-wet: True.

But I have learned quite a bit from this thread. What I have learned is the viewpoints of others. I could live my entire life here in the UK and never speak to someone who likes Trump. They just don't exist here. Or anywhere else in Europe. So it is really a privilege to be able to converse with people through this forum who hold views I'd never otherwise encounter, and as a result I think I'm just beginning to understand your election result, which to us Europeans looks like half your country had a mass brain fart, and elected a perverted and vain old reality TV star with no experience of office who promised you lots of things he could never actually deliver. Now I see how divided the US is, and how skewed your media has become. I have heard a shocking level of distrust in your own government institutions, and a pessimism that your political system will ever truly represent the interests of ordinary folk rather than big business. Overwhelmingly it seems that you see government as an obstacle to your goals, not a vehicle for your safety and security that exists to make your life easier. Certainly in Europe we are also cynical about government. But there is not the same level of distrust, and we are happier for our governments to provide healthcare, education, and other infrastructure to a degree that you are not, because we distrust big business more than we distrust our elected representatives.

So, through this social media outlet, the Zone, I have been both entertained and informed, and it has very much allowed me to be exposed to views I wouldn't otherwise be exposed to. That is quite the opposite of the echo chamber view of social media. So I guess maybe it boils down to whether you are willing to invest time and effort into trying to understand the viewpoints of people who hold views different from your own.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on February 18, 2017, 06:17:48 PM
I am watching Trump's Florida rally Live right now.  He is a really good campaigner.   I think he has a chance of wining the presidency.
"Wining the presidency" ?  :o   Yeah i think you may mean P-R-E-S-I-D-E-N-S-Y ? What a moran.

Shoot, I had to look it up.  It is Presidency, with. "C".  There's still time to delete this "Moran" post before anyone see it.   ;D
No.  Remember "c before y sounds like k in sky".  As in cyote.  ki-ote not si-ote.  Lunasy to argue otherwise.  Even admin admitted he has a weak barin.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Ichabod Spoonbill on February 18, 2017, 07:41:26 PM
Sometimes we need to put all this shit aside and surf.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 18, 2017, 08:51:12 PM
Sometimes we need to put all this shit aside and surf.

Dude, you have no idea how right you are. You'll recognize this double when you are out for 8 months. :/
I'm 4 months in...I'm not going to last another 4 with no water time.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 18, 2017, 09:29:57 PM
I'm 4 months in...I'm not going to last another 4 with no water time.

Couldn't get Obama to commute your sentence? ;D

Seriously, hang in there!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 18, 2017, 10:41:25 PM

Couldn't get Obama to commute your sentence? ;D

Seriously, hang in there!

haha, I would take that.


Funny thing about Obama is that is not that left leaning..he is the ultimate pragmatist. He has sent out more illegal aliens than any other president. I am not necessarily agreeing with it...but it is not a GOP position to be against cheap labor. Bush wanted to allow more in, simply because it makes sense.
Personally I liked that stance from Bush.

To me socialized healthcare makes economic sense. It is also the only way to create a great innovation / information economy. If you think the future is going to be hard...just wait and see if we segregate people on right to live (via healthcare and not).

...now you see what staying out of the water does to me?????
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 19, 2017, 02:41:45 AM


Also..I think possible treason is way more interesting to look into than a blowjob.

All the info about possible calls...the well-coordinated attacks on Clinton with leaks on Wikileaks...people resigning over contact and the constant defending of Putin...its worth looking into. If you do not think so you are not thinking about the wellbeing of the country but your belief in a team (this is not the same).
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on February 19, 2017, 07:08:30 AM
The hcosupb thread is the real victim here.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on February 19, 2017, 08:27:35 AM
The hcosupb thread is the real victim here.
Then reanimate it, nobody will complain, and it's easy.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 19, 2017, 08:45:57 AM
A10...I'm confused....nobody in Britain or Europe supports Trump? Brexit? The rise of LePen and populism in general in Europe? Those folks don't or wouldn't support Trump?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SeldomScene on February 19, 2017, 09:23:35 AM
[quote author=tautologies link=topic=31196.msg346149#msg346149 date=1487500905


Also..I think possible treason is way more interesting to look into than a blowjob.

All the info about possible calls...the well-coordinated attacks on Clinton with leaks on Wikileaks...people resigning over contact and the constant defending of Putin...its worth looking into. If you do not think so you are not thinking about the wellbeing of the country but your belief in a team (this is not the same).
[/quote]

oh, that BJ.  the one in the Oval Office, by a subordinate, that he lied about under oath.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 19, 2017, 09:44:20 AM
There's been money and therefore interest at the presidential level in selling out the USA to foreign powers since the revolutionary war, and probably well before that. I'm not too interested in the "Hillary did this" stuff, But President Clinton did that with China--in spades. Before that, it was various presidents selling our ass to the middle east. Not for oil, for money.

I have no idea what President Trump is up to. Way too noisy and far too much bullshit to know unless you are on the inside. I wouldn't be surprised at all if his administration was very cozy with the Russians. It makes great sense as a foil against expansionist China, but it's probably for money.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on February 19, 2017, 10:26:57 AM
Trump says he wants to bring 'back' manufacturing jobs. The best way to do that is to build for a foreign market, the US was strongest in manufacturing post WWII when its good were sold to a rebuilding of Europe. One of the biggest  problems the US has today is we don't build much that can be sold to our existing trading partners.  Maybe he sees Russia as a county in need of product that can be built in the US. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 19, 2017, 11:17:41 AM
A10...I'm confused....nobody in Britain or Europe supports Trump? Brexit? The rise of LePen and populism in general in Europe? Those folks don't or wouldn't support Trump?
Nope. Trump is a manifestation of the rise in populism and dissatisfaction with globalisation that is peculiar to the US. Marine Le Pen, Nigel Farage etc might be seen as a bit extreme, but they still have some grasp of reality. Whereas Trump is now confusing documentaries he's seen on TV with news events in Sweden:

http://news.sky.com/story/the-curious-case-of-president-trump-and-the-swedish-incident-10774330

Even the extreme right in Europe think Trump is toxic and are keeping their distance. For instance, on the website of perhaps the most rabid extreme right UK political group (the National Front), there is scepticism about a story that uses supposed mistreatment of a Trump supporter for political gain, and the website is otherwise pretty much a Trump-free zone.

This sums it up nicely: "Sure we voted for Brexit, but we didn't let any of the f**kers run the country!"

https://youtu.be/W4kNOHJqfEE

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 19, 2017, 01:10:30 PM
I'm not sure how European analysis of Trump and his administration enjoys some great clarity. the fog around both the election and the first few weeks is pretty intense. Even articles that seem to stem from reasoned analysis are full of exaggeration and obvious bias.

 I've been reading some of the articles regarding the intelligence community's animus, which is painted as being "unprecedented".  Short memories. The FBI and the CIA hated President Kennedy. Depending on your point of view, the Bay of Pigs was the CIA defying Kennedy, and his ultimate assassination may or may not have included FBI and CIA plotting. Whether or not it actually did, there was more than enough animus to support hundreds of such theories.

Virtually every presidency (sy??) has had enemies in the intelligence community and military. They are huge organizations with complex loyalties and sensitivities. Imagine what the divide is within those organizations regarding Hillary and Benghazi. Every extreme from holding her blameless to considering her directly responsible for a colleague's death. Leaks are part of the modus operandi and range from sanctioned to treason. Always have been. US Intelligence officers with Nazi sympathies leaked classified information to Germany. People act to some degree on their personal convictions, and those are never uniform. I don't know why that seems hard to understand.

I've given up on digging. I'll wait for the ten thousand tell-all histories of Trumps administration.
 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on February 19, 2017, 01:58:09 PM
I know I just don't know what to believe and what to even read or watch. It's far worse than ever to sort through. Something that seems credible.....if it's true it would be real news like no ones business and then it's gone in a day. Is it the damn phones and social media instead of just the plain ol' internet that is driving things the way they are as much as it is Trump? Maybe that's all the news is worth anymore......a day. Well, its been that way for awhile......now it's just a blip. Off to the next thing. That can't be it entirely. Some of the stuff I have seen would/should be covered far more I would think if there was anything really credible to it.
Not trying to go to bat for her in any way but stupid Kelly Conway and the "buy Ivanka" comment. That was an offhand comment in the middle of....much more. Yeah, not the brightest thing to say but damn if it hasn't seemed like she took out a half hour infomercial on Ivanka's stuff or that's the whole reason she sat down with whoever that was she was with.
I do know........that stupid ass picture with his kid riding the lion......I don't know what it is....seen it about a year ago I guess the first time but the stupid limo toys really just put the cherry on top of that whole ridiculous scene.
I can almost give him a pass on the rally yesterday considering he hasn't heard anything good except from his family or staff in quite a while but seeing that stupid picture again just really makes me scratch my head even more about him. Those and his bragging to Billy Bush on the bus...he is just so full of himself. He needs a thicker skin if nothing else.
47 months left. When do they start campaigning again?
(ohhhhhh........)
Hmmmmmm, presidence day tomorrow.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 19, 2017, 04:13:25 PM

I agree the press isn't very good at focusing on the bigger things. They are still chasing the breaking story, which is not going to work that same way. You cannot Gotcha Trump...truth doesn't matter to him. Instead they should be doing research and break the bigger stories..the ones Pono is wating for. I think there are a few good journalists that are working on it. The Russia story is huge, but they needs to show the trail.

I think Conway is irrelevant. She should not be invited to any of the shows because she is not in the know. She doesn't speak for the president and she doesn't know what is going on. I am willing to bet she begs to go on those shows to keep from being further marginalized. She serves as a buffer between the president where we cannot hold him accountable for what she is saying...it is a great setup for the Whitehouse, but the press needs to stop inviting her.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on February 19, 2017, 04:57:42 PM
The Russia story is huge, but they needs to show the trail.

I think Conway is irrelevant. She should not be invited to any of the shows because she is not in the know. She doesn't speak for the president and she doesn't know what is going on. I am willing to bet she begs to go on those shows to keep from being further marginalized. She serves as a buffer between the president where we cannot hold him accountable for what she is saying...it is a great setup for the Whitehouse, but the press needs to stop inviting her.
Which one?

I don't know what to think about her...is he playing his game show?
Kind of.
I brought her up I think because it seems it's the only story that lasted 2-3 days last week.

They had to have posed for that picture knowing it was over the top............right?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 19, 2017, 06:38:47 PM
If you google for pictures of the family....there are many, many like that...he loves all that gaudy shit around him.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 19, 2017, 10:38:07 PM

Zakaria's take on it: http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/19/politics/fareed-zakaria-trump-take-cnntv/index.html

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 20, 2017, 04:30:04 AM

Zakaria's take on it: http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/19/politics/fareed-zakaria-trump-take-cnntv/index.html
It's interesting that Obama actually did much more than Trump has done, in the same period. I didn't know that.

The problem with the press I think is that the sheer welter of total BS coming from Trump and his team is so dense that it obliterates all other stories. They can't ignore the President saying things that are manifestly untrue. For instance, in reference to Trump's bizarre statement about events in Sweden that he apparently got from watching a Fox News:

(Sky News): "According to a White House spokeswoman, Mr Trump had been referring generally to rising crime in Sweden, but not a specific incident in the Scandinavian country.

But even this is at odd with official statistics. They show Sweden's crime rate has fallen since 2005, despite the country taking in hundreds of thousands of immigrants from war-torn countries such as Iraq and Syria".

Clearly this HAS to be covered. The media can't ignore the POTUS suggesting something that is patently untrue.

Also Sky News:

"At a news conference on 16 February, Mr Trump falsely claimed that his Electoral College win was the biggest since Ronald Reagan's. This is not true.

Both of Barack Obama's Electoral College wins, both of Bill Clinton's and George W Bush's were all bigger than Mr Trump's".

Again, the media can't ignore this lie.

And then there is all the nonsense that comes from Spicer, Conway etc on the back of these kind of inaccuracies as they try desperately to spin Trump's proclamations as to avoid him seeming like someone who cares far less about truth than votes.

So, while I agree entirely that the media doesn't seem to be doing much that is substantial these days, I do feel partly sorry for them - Trump has turned the role of POTUS into a reality TV show, and I think he's just doing his Apprentice thing, where the aim is to entertain and get column inches, and as for reality: well, it's just for TV, and anyone knows that anything goes in TV land.

This is a fascinating sociopolitical time. I'm sure theorists will be debating it for decades to come. It's the Kim Kardashianisation of politics: the point at which the cult of the celebrity, and the phenomenon of reality TV, got mixed up with social media and the whole mad unreal circus started to run the world. This is the tail wagging the dog, I fear.

In this respect I think that while the Trump phenomenon is symptomatic of what is also going on elsewhere in the world (especially Europe), with fears of globalisation, fear of change, rising inequality, and changing demographics, it is also something apart from that. And I wonder whether I've only really been seeing Trump in terms of the rise of populism, globalisation etc rather than actually what it is at least equally: Kim Kardashian in trousers as president.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: southwesterly on February 20, 2017, 08:04:17 AM
Time out for President's Day.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 20, 2017, 11:12:22 AM
A10...I'm confused....nobody in Britain or Europe supports Trump? Brexit? The rise of LePen and populism in general in Europe? Those folks don't or wouldn't support Trump?
Here's an interactive map showing the proportion of the UK population who have signed the petition to stop the proposed Trump state visit to the UK (it is being debated in parliament).

This has so far received the second largest number of signatures of any petition since these online petitions began. It is interesting to note that, as % of the population, how widespread across the U.K. the signaturies are, and also how unpopular Trump is in Scotland, despite (or perhaps because of?) his much-proclaimed Scottish heritage, and golf course up there.

http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=171928

Approx 1.8 million people have signed this petition so far.

There is also a petition in support of Trump's visit. It has received around 200k signatures. But it has been going a shorter period of time, and the rate of signatures it is getting is currently similar to, or greater than, the anti-Trump ones. People are voting substantially because they see this as a feeedom of speech issue, according to the vox pops. The pro-Trump petition was the idea of one of these people, and his 13-yr old daughter actually created it.

However in *all* areas the number of people signing the anti-visit petition is still higher than those signing the pro-visit petition. So there isn't a difference in support on this issue in different regions of the UK like we'd see on most issues, or with voting for political parties (where the UK is divided along left wing-right wing lines as the US is).
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 20, 2017, 11:57:28 AM

oh, that BJ.  the one in the Oval Office, by a subordinate, that he lied about under oath.

Well a BJ isn't illegal...lying is. However, Trump has been caught in so many lies this far and he has obvious conflicts of interest in his business dealings...which is illegal. His ties to Russia should be investigated His insane attacks on the press, judicial system and a whole slew of other factors should easily be enough for even his supports to question WTF he is doing. The GOP should be preparing an impeachment....because trump is a con-man.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on February 20, 2017, 12:52:30 PM
Quote
There is also a petition in support of Trump's visit. It has received around 200k signatures.

How many of those signatures are there just so they can see the damn shitshow?

Wanting to see Trump allowed into the country should not be confused with support of him as POTUS.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 20, 2017, 02:28:14 PM
Quote
There is also a petition in support of Trump's visit. It has received around 200k signatures.

How many of those signatures are there just so they can see the damn shitshow?

Wanting to see Trump allowed into the country should not be confused with support of him as POTUS.
I couldn't agree more. For some it's a free speech issue: no matter how much they dislike Trump they still think he should be allowed to speak. And for others, you are probably right, they just want the whole Kardashian-like circus, and perhaps even a chance to throw an egg or two. Or sit back with some popcorn and watch the riots live on TV, laughing.

I know some guys here who voted for Brexit, and would probably have been sympathetic to the whole isolationist populist Trump thing if they were US citizens. So I asked them about their views about Trump. A typical answer: "he's a total tit". So as I said before I think Trump himself (rather than the move towards populism) is a peculiarly US thing. He's a bit of a freak occurrence after all - as I understand it, the GOP didn't really even want him, he isn't a traditional Republican, and you've gotta wonder whether if the Democrats had fielded a candidate for change -pretty much any candidate - rather than HC, Trump would now be Prez.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on February 20, 2017, 02:47:23 PM
One thing about the electoral system is that, by allowing someone with fewer popular votes to win, it almost guarantees protests. After all, even if the protests aren't about the candidate with fewer votes winning, the system has created a situation where most voters chose someone else, meaning lots of potential protesters, and lots of people unhappy with what the president is doing, since most people voted for another candidate with another platform.  Without the electoral system, most voters would have voted for the winner, so most would be happier with what the winner was doing.


I'm not arguing for or against the electoral college, or saying that's a main reason for the protests or the number of protesters, but it's at least a contributing factor. And there's at least the potential for a election where a lot more than 3 or 4 million people voted for the loser.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 20, 2017, 02:57:31 PM
Not really. Lots of recent presidents didn't win the popular vote. Even if the vote was 50/50, half the voters would have voted for the other side. Roughly 58 percent of the registered voters actually voted in the current election--90 million people who could vote, didn't. Far beyond the leveling nature of the electoral college, you can come up with any number of scenarios where someone else would have won. Two or three million "popular" votes difference is piddly. If all 90 million had voted for me, as they promised, then I'd be president and the country would be on vacation, learning to surf and perfecting their stroke.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 20, 2017, 03:01:34 PM
A10...I'm confused....nobody in Britain or Europe supports Trump? Brexit? The rise of LePen and populism in general in Europe? Those folks don't or wouldn't support Trump?
Here's an interactive map showing the proportion of the UK population who have signed the petition to stop the proposed Trump state visit to the UK (it is being debated in parliament).

This has so far received the second largest number of signatures of any petition since these online petitions began. It is interesting to note that, as % of the population, how widespread across the U.K. the signaturies are, and also how unpopular Trump is in Scotland, despite (or perhaps because of?) his much-proclaimed Scottish heritage, and golf course up there.

http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=171928

Approx 1.8 million people have signed this petition so far.

There is also a petition in support of Trump's visit. It has received around 200k signatures. But it has been going a shorter period of time, and the rate of signatures it is getting is currently similar to, or greater than, the anti-Trump ones. People are voting substantially because they see this as a feeedom of speech issue, according to the vox pops. The pro-Trump petition was the idea of one of these people, and his 13-yr old daughter actually created it.

However in *all* areas the number of people signing the anti-visit petition is still higher than those signing the pro-visit petition. So there isn't a difference in support on this issue in different regions of the UK like we'd see on most issues, or with voting for political parties (where the UK is divided along left wing-right wing lines as the US is).

***snore*** What? Oh, is there some other pointless stupid thing going on? A petition? cool. I'll sign both.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SeldomScene on February 20, 2017, 03:04:43 PM
One thing about the electoral system is that, by allowing someone with fewer popular votes to win, it almost guarantees protests. After all, even if the protests aren't about the candidate with fewer votes winning, the system has created a situation where most voters chose someone else, meaning lots of potential protesters, and lots of people unhappy with what the president is doing, since most people voted for another candidate with another platform.  Without the electoral system, most voters would have voted for the winner, so most would be happier with what the winner was doing.


I'm not arguing for or against the electoral college, or saying that's a main reason for the protests or the number of protesters, but it's at least a contributing factor. And there's at least the potential for a election where a lot more than 3 or 4 million people voted for the loser.

I don't recall any Republicans protesting when Bill Clinton was elected with 43 per cent of the popular vote.  Demanding a runoff, for example.  In fact, I don't remember Republicans protesting anything.  Too busy working, I guess.

The whole thing about Trump and his rallies, as well as his orders for the border "wall", deportations, etc., are all for one reason only.  He feels it necessary to do what he said he would do if elected.  The rallies take him straight to those people who elected him, bypassing the media.  He may be nutty, but he is keeping his word. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on February 20, 2017, 03:29:03 PM
Area 10, just wondering, do you post this many long opinions about your own country's government in your own country, Brexit as an example, or is it just us who gets to know what's on your mind.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Quickbeam on February 20, 2017, 04:16:08 PM
I don't recall any Republicans protesting when Bill Clinton was elected with 43 per cent of the popular vote.  Demanding a runoff, for example.  In fact, I don't remember Republicans protesting anything. 

Maybe not, but I remember one person protesting on Twitter when it at first looked like Obama was going to get in on his second term with the electoral college vote, and lose the popular vote. And that was Trump. I believe his tweet said “We need a revolution in this country”. At least words to that effect. And then of course Obama did win the popular vote, and Trump deleted his Tweet.

And now of course Trump supports the electoral college. Surprise, surprise!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 20, 2017, 04:44:21 PM
This has to be close to the most pointless argument possible.  Maybe we could toss in some alternate universes and time travel.

Blame PDX. He brought it up again.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 20, 2017, 06:25:40 PM

^ Here you go. EIP measures electoral integrity.

DFL

https://www.electoralintegrityproject.com/eip-blogs/2017/1/7/its-even-worse-than-the-news-about-north-carolina-american-elections-rank-last-among-all-western-democracies
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 20, 2017, 06:29:19 PM
I don't think the reason why people stay at home is because the electoral system. I think voters feels disenfranchised because they feel almost equally fubared regardless of who is chosen. Now if you look at election patterns in the US incumbents will just not turn out...they are happy with status quo, and can't get into their mind that shit changes if your preferred politicians aren't elected...

Trump won the election much because Koch brothers and Rove has been so incredibly successful in gerrymandering. The weird part is that Rove has been explicit about it: "He who controls redistricting can control Congress" and democrats just stood there like idiots watching him and Koch money change the map.

They have been extremely efficient and well organized.
Then Trump came along and just stole the election from Rove and the GOP.

But saying people shouldn't demonstates is simply ludicrous because it is the right of the people (for the time beeing) to state their minds. Write and call the policitians and dempnstrate. It will help.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 20, 2017, 06:56:02 PM
I do think the US electoral process has been compromised. But I did read the article Yugi linked to. I wonder if anyone else will--or maybe just the title and the last paragraph. The issues the article describes, which are substantially about perception rather than quantifiable problems, has little to do with the significance of the popular vote in the last election.

Tautologies, you can't really be serious in thinking the gerrymandering that has taken place everywhere in the USA is a republican plan or is exclusive to Koch and Rove. "democrats just stood there like idiots watching him and Koch money change the map". Really?

I would agree that republicans were more effective--this time. But historically Gerrymandering has been primarily democrat territory, For the simple reason that it's more effective in democratic strongholds--the urban areas. Neither side wants it stopped because both sides gain PERSONAL benefit. If you represent a gerrymandered district your future is guaranteed.

I grew up in Massachusetts. We Massholes know what Gerrymandering is and who does it.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on February 20, 2017, 08:37:35 PM
One thing about the electoral system is that, by allowing someone with fewer popular votes to win, it almost guarantees protests. After all, even if the protests aren't about the candidate with fewer votes winning, the system has created a situation where most voters chose someone else, meaning lots of potential protesters, and lots of people unhappy with what the president is doing, since most people voted for another candidate with another platform.  Without the electoral system, most voters would have voted for the winner, so most would be happier with what the winner was doing.


I'm not arguing for or against the electoral college, or saying that's a main reason for the protests or the number of protesters, but it's at least a contributing factor. And there's at least the potential for a election where a lot more than 3 or 4 million people voted for the loser.

I don't recall any Republicans protesting when Bill Clinton was elected with 43 per cent of the popular vote.  Demanding a runoff, for example.  In fact, I don't remember Republicans protesting anything.  Too busy working, I guess.

The whole thing about Trump and his rallies, as well as his orders for the border "wall", deportations, etc., are all for one reason only.  He feels it necessary to do what he said he would do if elected.  The rallies take him straight to those people who elected him, bypassing the media.  He may be nutty, but he is keeping his word.
I'm not sure why anyone would have protested Bill Clinton being elected with 43% of the popular vote, since he easily defeated Bush Sr., who had only 37% of the vote.  So that example is the opposite of what happened this year, and only relevant if you're trying to argue that people don't protest if their candidate gets convincingly beaten in the popular vote.


Also, the "too busy working" spiel--with the implication that this year's anti-Trump protests were populated with people who don't work hard--is tiresome.  This is a list of 100% of people who I know (not cherry-picking to make my point) that I know were at the protests:
--1 college honors student who works while in school
--1 graduate medical student who works while in school
--3 architects
--1 urban planner
--1 retired woman (90 years old, don't know her career, but she grew up working on a farm)
--1 senior Intel engineer
--1 medical researcher/inventor/professor/mathematician with at least one PhD
--1 mathematician (PhD) who runs a charitable trust
--1 elementary school teacher
--1 CFO at a large manufacturing company
--1 National Guardsman home between deployments







Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 20, 2017, 09:07:51 PM
Tautologies, you can't really be serious in thinking the gerrymandering that has taken place everywhere in the USA is a republican plan or is exclusive to Koch and Rove. "democrats just stood there like idiots watching him and Koch money change the map". Really?


Nope not everywhere...but it doesn't take much to prove what I am saying...

Do you change your opinion if you find one of the parties involved said: Here is a strategy and plan in 2010? Then the outcome is exactly what that person laid out?

Its not like Rove hid his intentions...he far to vain for that. Democrats did sit and watch the Koch brothers fund the mid-terms because they didn't have the appartus to deal with it...and like idiots because they didn't fight toorh and nail.

 
Rove in 2010:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703862704575099670689398044

Koch funding:

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-rove-campaign-20140608-story.html

Gerrymandering impact:

http://www.npr.org/2016/06/15/482150951/understanding-congressional-gerrymandering-its-moneyball-applied-to-politics

..but this shouldn't come as a surprise:
http://billmoyers.com/story/real-way-2016-election-rigged/


Why shouldn't I be serious?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 20, 2017, 10:20:07 PM
I don't need to change my opinion--I agree with you that the republicans fiddled everything since 2010.  I'm pretty sure I remembered to say that.

Yup, just looked.

Interesting articles, I skimmed, I'll have to read them more carefully. I think I already knew most of it, but there might be some tidbits.

My point was simply that none of this fiddling is new. Machine politics in the midwest, Gerrymandering on the east coast. I don't know what they do on the west coast--probably everything. Neither party gets a pass. Democrats invented it--in Massachusetts. But that was back at the turn of the century. Now we have computers and moneyball as an example. And I've been saying for years that Gerrymandering is the primary thing that has damaged the electoral college system--along with the requirement that the electors follow the popular vote in many states.

Needs a rework. We also need term limits and much stricter campaign contribution controls. I'm not holding my breath. Maybe if the protestors organized around some real demands instead of "we don't like the outcome of the election" then something could happen. So far it's looking a lot like the occupy movement. Noise and nothing.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 21, 2017, 12:32:18 AM


Ok fine we agree. Heh. Seriously though agree 100% on the last paragraph. The only way we can actually change some of those ote.s is to get elected ourselves.

Unfortunately I have little faith that many of theverything elected officials would vote for term limit's. One thing they could do would be to remove much of the money from politics. Make political ads illegal. Or at least negative ads.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 21, 2017, 05:50:05 AM
Here you go guys...maybe this will make you feel better. Fake news, fake reality, http://www.hillarybeattrump.org/
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SeldomScene on February 21, 2017, 02:25:53 PM
One thing about the electoral system is that, by allowing someone with fewer popular votes to win, it almost guarantees protests. After all, even if the protests aren't about the candidate with fewer votes winning, the system has created a situation where most voters chose someone else, meaning lots of potential protesters, and lots of people unhappy with what the president is doing, since most people voted for another candidate with another platform.  Without the electoral system, most voters would have voted for the winner, so most would be happier with what the winner was doing.


I'm not arguing for or against the electoral college, or saying that's a main reason for the protests or the number of protesters, but it's at least a contributing factor. And there's at least the potential for a election where a lot more than 3 or 4 million people voted for the loser.

I don't recall any Republicans protesting when Bill Clinton was elected with 43 per cent of the popular vote.  Demanding a runoff, for example.  In fact, I don't remember Republicans protesting anything.  Too busy working, I guess.

The whole thing about Trump and his rallies, as well as his orders for the border "wall", deportations, etc., are all for one reason only.  He feels it necessary to do what he said he would do if elected.  The rallies take him straight to those people who elected him, bypassing the media.  He may be nutty, but he is keeping his word.
I'm not sure why anyone would have protested Bill Clinton being elected with 43% of the popular vote, since he easily defeated Bush Sr., who had only 37% of the vote.  So that example is the opposite of what happened this year, and only relevant if you're trying to argue that people don't protest if their candidate gets convincingly beaten in the popular vote.


Also, the "too busy working" spiel--with the implication that this year's anti-Trump protests were populated with people who don't work hard--is tiresome.  This is a list of 100% of people who I know (not cherry-picking to make my point) that I know were at the protests:
--1 college honors student who works while in school
--1 graduate medical student who works while in school
--3 architects
--1 urban planner
--1 retired woman (90 years old, don't know her career, but she grew up working on a farm)
--1 senior Intel engineer
--1 medical researcher/inventor/professor/mathematician with at least one PhD
--1 mathematician (PhD) who runs a charitable trust
--1 elementary school teacher
--1 CFO at a large manufacturing company
--1 National Guardsman home between deployments









oh, that BJ.  the one in the Oval Office, by a subordinate, that he lied about under oath.

Well a BJ isn't illegal...lying is. However, Trump has been caught in so many lies this far and he has obvious conflicts of interest in his business dealings...which is illegal. His ties to Russia should be investigated His insane attacks on the press, judicial system and a whole slew of other factors should easily be enough for even his supports to question WTF he is doing. The GOP should be preparing an impeachment....because trump is a con-man.

Wow, you hang with an impressive crowd. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SeldomScene on February 21, 2017, 04:35:02 PM
I don't think the reason why people stay at home is because the electoral system. I think voters feels disenfranchised because they feel almost equally fubared regardless of who is chosen. Now if you look at election patterns in the US incumbents will just not turn out...they are happy with status quo, and can't get into their mind that shit changes if your preferred politicians aren't elected...

Trump won the election much because Koch brothers and Rove has been so incredibly successful in gerrymandering. The weird part is that Rove has been explicit about it: "He who controls redistricting can control Congress" and democrats just stood there like idiots watching him and Koch money change the map.

They have been extremely efficient and well organized.
Then Trump came along and just stole the election from Rove and the GOP.

But saying people shouldn't demonstates is simply ludicrous because it is the right of the people (for the time beeing) to state their minds. Write and call the policitians and dempnstrate. It will help.

Actually, I personally know several people here in Washington who don't vote, because so many liberals live in one metro area the rest of the voters don't matter.  It's a microcosm of why the Electoral College exists.  No other reason but that. 

You could blame that guy Gerry Mandering, which has been utilized by both parties for 200 years, for the failures of the Democrat Party.  It is true that that nut Dennis Kucinich was gerrymandered right out if office when his district was abolished due to population loss in Ohio, but few Dems would even mourn him.  Gerrymandering didn't result in the majorities Republicans enjoy in US politics, at every level.  White House, House, Senate, Governors, etc.  And, if the Dems would win the House, they could Gerrymander themselves right back into majority.  Just get that famously effective Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi,  representing the most liberal out of touch with reality district in America, to engineer the comeback.  Wait, she already engineered the demise of the party, never mind.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on February 21, 2017, 05:15:18 PM
One thing about the electoral system is that, by allowing someone with fewer popular votes to win, it almost guarantees protests. After all, even if the protests aren't about the candidate with fewer votes winning, the system has created a situation where most voters chose someone else, meaning lots of potential protesters, and lots of people unhappy with what the president is doing, since most people voted for another candidate with another platform.  Without the electoral system, most voters would have voted for the winner, so most would be happier with what the winner was doing.


I'm not arguing for or against the electoral college, or saying that's a main reason for the protests or the number of protesters, but it's at least a contributing factor. And there's at least the potential for a election where a lot more than 3 or 4 million people voted for the loser.

I don't recall any Republicans protesting when Bill Clinton was elected with 43 per cent of the popular vote.  Demanding a runoff, for example.  In fact, I don't remember Republicans protesting anything.  Too busy working, I guess.

The whole thing about Trump and his rallies, as well as his orders for the border "wall", deportations, etc., are all for one reason only.  He feels it necessary to do what he said he would do if elected.  The rallies take him straight to those people who elected him, bypassing the media.  He may be nutty, but he is keeping his word.
I'm not sure why anyone would have protested Bill Clinton being elected with 43% of the popular vote, since he easily defeated Bush Sr., who had only 37% of the vote.  So that example is the opposite of what happened this year, and only relevant if you're trying to argue that people don't protest if their candidate gets convincingly beaten in the popular vote.


Also, the "too busy working" spiel--with the implication that this year's anti-Trump protests were populated with people who don't work hard--is tiresome.  This is a list of 100% of people who I know (not cherry-picking to make my point) that I know were at the protests:
--1 college honors student who works while in school
--1 graduate medical student who works while in school
--3 architects
--1 urban planner
--1 retired woman (90 years old, don't know her career, but she grew up working on a farm)
--1 senior Intel engineer
--1 medical researcher/inventor/professor/mathematician with at least one PhD
--1 mathematician (PhD) who runs a charitable trust
--1 elementary school teacher
--1 CFO at a large manufacturing company
--1 National Guardsman home between deployments









oh, that BJ.  the one in the Oval Office, by a subordinate, that he lied about under oath.

Well a BJ isn't illegal...lying is. However, Trump has been caught in so many lies this far and he has obvious conflicts of interest in his business dealings...which is illegal. His ties to Russia should be investigated His insane attacks on the press, judicial system and a whole slew of other factors should easily be enough for even his supports to question WTF he is doing. The GOP should be preparing an impeachment....because trump is a con-man.

Wow, you hang with an impressive crowd.
Main point is that these people work as hard as any of the people who are "too busy working" to protest. 


Also, I'd guess 100% of the people I know who protested vote.  Yet the very first tweet from Trump after the Women's March protests was "Why didn't these people vote?"  His knee-jerk reaction to anything or anyone he doesn't like is to dismiss them personally--non-voters, fake newswriters, ugly, dumb...I don't remember any other president consistently responding to criticism that way.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 21, 2017, 05:50:29 PM
I don't remember them responding at all. If I were advising him, or better yet, controlling him, he'd say very little. He doesn't seem to understand, or at least value, the concept of plausible deniability--separating himself from anything unseemly. Or he just doesn't care.

Seldom, the term actually comes from Eldridge Gerry, a Mass Governer plus the end of Salamander, for the salamander-shaped district he supposedly shaped to concentrate votes.

From all accounts he was a dick too, but he's safely dead.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SeldomScene on February 21, 2017, 07:07:09 PM
I don't remember them responding at all. If I were advising him, or better yet, controlling him, he'd say very little. He doesn't seem to understand, or at least value, the concept of plausible deniability--separating himself from anything unseemly. Or he just doesn't care.

Seldom, the term actually comes from Eldridge Gerry, a Mass Governer plus the end of Salamander, for the salamander-shaped district he supposedly shaped to concentrate votes.

From all accounts he was a dick too, but he's safely dead.

Are you serious?  Thought it would be humorously obvious to all when I used Gerry Mander.  Esp when I used gerrymander later in my post.  And I didn't even have to google the term like some.  Learnt it in middle school/high school/college/grad school.  USC baby.  Mander on ....
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 21, 2017, 08:06:38 PM
Barney Frank was one of the worst, or should that be best, examples of it in recent times......the original Eldridge Gerry salamander (looks more like bird in this)..... and Bahney Fwank's creative line drawing.

(http://commonwealthmagazine.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2001/12/gerrymander.ashx____imgx.gif)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 21, 2017, 10:07:32 PM
I don't remember them responding at all. If I were advising him, or better yet, controlling him, he'd say very little. He doesn't seem to understand, or at least value, the concept of plausible deniability--separating himself from anything unseemly. Or he just doesn't care.

Seldom, the term actually comes from Eldridge Gerry, a Mass Governer plus the end of Salamander, for the salamander-shaped district he supposedly shaped to concentrate votes.

From all accounts he was a dick too, but he's safely dead.

Are you serious?  Thought it would be humorously obvious to all when I used Gerry Mander.  Esp when I used gerrymander later in my post.  And I didn't even have to google the term like some.  Learnt it in middle school/high school/college/grad school.  USC baby.  Mander on ....

Sorry, my iron is busted. Probably got overused with all this shit. I didn't need to google it either, but I did to get the spelling right. Good thing, I thought his name was Ethan for some reason.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 22, 2017, 12:43:07 AM
Average of 4 lies per day.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/02/21/donald-trumps-unbroken-streak-of-falsehoods-now-stands-at-33-days/?utm_term=.c39f58c9dabd

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 22, 2017, 03:55:10 AM
Average of 4 lies per day.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/02/21/donald-trumps-unbroken-streak-of-falsehoods-now-stands-at-33-days/?utm_term=.c39f58c9dabd
The verdict on Trump from Sweden is in, and it's "what has he been smoking?".

Hilarious. Trump: winning respect for the US all over the world.

http://news.sky.com/story/ex-swedish-pm-carl-bildt-tells-donald-trump-stop-digging-10775741
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 22, 2017, 04:46:59 AM
Amnesty International releases its Annual Report for 2016 to 2017.

   https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2017/02/amnesty-international-annual-report-201617/

“2016 was the year when the cynical use of ‘us vs them’ narratives of blame, hate and fear took on a global prominence to a level not seen since the 1930s. Too many politicians are answering legitimate economic and security fears with a poisonous and divisive manipulation of identity politics in an attempt to win votes,” said Salil Shetty, Secretary General of Amnesty International.

“Divisive fear-mongering has become a dangerous force in world affairs. Whether it is Trump, Orban, Erdoğan or Duterte, more and more politicians calling themselves anti-establishment are wielding a toxic agenda that hounds, scapegoats and dehumanizes entire groups of people.

“Today’s politics of demonization shamelessly peddles a dangerous idea that some people are less human than others, stripping away the humanity of entire groups of people. This threatens to unleash the darkest aspects of human nature.”




Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 22, 2017, 05:58:26 AM
The problem with the AI report is that it is pure opinion.  It speaks about a specific change "the cynical use of ‘us vs them’ narratives of blame, hate and fear took on a global prominence to a level not seen since the 1930s", yet there is no significant historical perspective, only net-opinion.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 22, 2017, 06:34:40 AM
^ wow

Amnesty International annual report is "pure opinion"? "only net-opinion"?

Just wow.

I’m sensing your reaction is a sign of things to come. Which is what really worries me.

So it begins. And so ends logical intelligent discussion.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 22, 2017, 06:48:40 AM
Yugi, tell me how the AI report supports the shift from 1930 to present. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on February 22, 2017, 08:46:39 AM


So it begins. And so ends logical intelligent discussion.
Just now?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 22, 2017, 08:50:50 AM
The problem with the AI report is that it is pure opinion.  It speaks about a specific change "the cynical use of ‘us vs them’ narratives of blame, hate and fear took on a global prominence to a level not seen since the 1930s", yet there is no significant historical perspective, only net-opinion.

Yugi, tell me how the AI report supports the shift from 1930 to present.

Bean, you wrote “The problem with the AI report is that it is pure opinion.”. Their annual report is based on research.

Get real, mate. For comments the Secretary General of Amnesty International made in the release statement of the report, no, I’m not responsible for backing up why he said that. Ask him yourself. 

If you wish to have an intelligent respectful discussion with me on why I find his points valid, or point out to me useful information on why I shouldn’t, OK. We can do that but without the twisty tactics. Else I’m out.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUPcheat on February 22, 2017, 09:39:56 AM
Why waste time with logical and intelligent discussion when you can have an ad hominem screaming match?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 22, 2017, 09:58:43 AM
I'm not particularly concerned with the administration, though it's certainly a shitshow of epic proportions. I'm far more concerned that there is so much polarization of opinion regarding governance, and how people should behave, and intervention, and immigration, and basic things I'd call humanity.

I'm not sure where all this comes from, maybe it's always been there and the web has simply given it a voice. Looking at responses in a political site, or on youtube, or anywhere almost gives me a sick feeling and a serious case of the willies. Add in religious intolerance and the antics of a reality TV spoiled brat fade away for me.

It's a lousy time for all this. The world is changing very quickly, and politics and it's connection to religion is where change gets regulated. More than any other factor, that's where I see the future of the USA dimming rapidly. Populist politics puts the stupid and gullible in charge, and I don't mean Trump. I mean all the idiots, left and right, who are too stupid to doubt their convictions.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 22, 2017, 10:11:41 AM
The problem with the AI report is that it is pure opinion.  It speaks about a specific change "the cynical use of ‘us vs them’ narratives of blame, hate and fear took on a global prominence to a level not seen since the 1930s", yet there is no significant historical perspective, only net-opinion.

Yugi, tell me how the AI report supports the shift from 1930 to present.

Bean, you wrote “The problem with the AI report is that it is pure opinion.”. Their annual report is based on research.


That's just it Yugi, I did not find that opinion supported in the annual report.  It's not so much whether I agree or disagree, it's the quality and credibility of the data that's being thrown around on all sides that should have us all concerned.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: headmount on February 22, 2017, 10:30:49 AM
I'm not particularly concerned with the administration, though it's certainly a shitshow of epic proportions. I'm far more concerned that there is so much polarization of opinion regarding governance, and how people should behave, and intervention, and immigration, and basic things I'd call humanity.

I'm not sure where all this comes from, maybe it's always been there and the web has simply given it a voice. Looking at responses in a political site, or on youtube, or anywhere almost gives me a sick feeling and a serious case of the willies. Add in religious intolerance and the antics of a reality TV spoiled brat fade away for me.

It's a lousy time for all this. The world is changing very quickly, and politics and it's connection to religion is where change gets regulated. More than any other factor, that's where I see the future of the USA dimming rapidly. Populist politics puts the stupid and gullible in charge, and I don't mean Trump. I mean all the idiots, left and right, who are too stupid to doubt their convictions.
Eric Sevaried essentially said the same thing back when we were growing up.  "Better to trust the man who is frequently in error than the one who is never in doubt."  He also said, “The biggest big business in America is not steel, automobiles, or television. It is the manufacture, refinement and distribution of anxiety.”
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on February 22, 2017, 11:22:06 AM
Good quotes headmount.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 22, 2017, 12:50:56 PM
The problem with the AI report is that it is pure opinion.  It speaks about a specific change "the cynical use of ‘us vs them’ narratives of blame, hate and fear took on a global prominence to a level not seen since the 1930s", yet there is no significant historical perspective, only net-opinion.
Yugi, tell me how the AI report supports the shift from 1930 to present.

Bean, you wrote “The problem with the AI report is that it is pure opinion.”. Their annual report is based on research...

Yugi, by now you have undoubtedly read the entire annual report (409 pages) and have seen for yourself that the quote, "the cynical use of ‘us vs them’ narratives of blame, hate and fear took on a global prominence to a level not seen since the 1930s" is nowhere to be found within the report.  And certainly not based on research as you had said.

So, if there is no relevance, why does Salil Shetty make reference the 1930's in his quote?  I see this simply as classic fear-mongering.

Stay skeptical my friend, even if it's AI...
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on February 22, 2017, 01:35:30 PM
........ I'm far more concerned that there is so much polarization of opinion regarding governance, and how people should behave, and intervention, and immigration, and basic things I'd call humanity.

I'm not sure where all this comes from, maybe it's always been there and the web has simply given it a voice. Looking at responses in a political site, or on youtube, or anywhere almost gives me a sick feeling and a serious case of the willies. Add in religious intolerance and the antics of a reality TV spoiled brat fade away for me.

It's a lousy time for all this. The world is changing very quickly..............
I think it's always been there but now the internet has given everyone a voice and social media has made that voice louder. The ability to stay anything from autonomous to anonymous just really opens the jar of bad behaivor along with being able to be heard. "Hey, someone is listening to me.....that's never happened......."  Well, it's a good thing we don't really know what kind of person you are but the one you are presenting yourself as sure does say alot and in many cases it's probably a damn good thing no one has listened before. The opinions have probably always been there to a point but the constant oneupmanship that the internet and especially social media or the comment sections of things just really sets it all free. Plenty of dimwits in all flavors to go around, lots of bandwagon jumpers as well as always has been but if you were to actually have a conversation with people then I don't think people would be so...........antisocial? I don't know.
I also don't see this place as being that way even tho we are all somewhat autonomous or anonymous to a degree. Is it because a forum lends itself to a more social atmosphere? Should twitter and maybe even facebook be defined more as antisocial media? I guess in its inception and plan facebook would be social media but it seems to lend itself the exact opposite of that more so I think in many ways. Comment sections? That's just a shitshow but rather entertaining none the less.

Eric Sevaried. I too young to remember him as much more than the guy who seemed to do the evening news on the weekends or fill in when Walter was off but he also said this I just saw. Seems I have looked him up over the past couple years another time or few as well.
"Next to power without honor, the most dangerous thing in the world is power without humor."
Uh-oh.

Amnesty International. What is that place? I am sure way good intentions. What happens with the research? What is the research? Is it someones....mullings over events and press in the world? Not much different than what you and me are doing trying to figure out what the hell is going on?
Someone looks at it.....dissolves it and.....How can it be deemed the truth rather than an opinion I guess would be my question. (No.....I didn't read much on that particular piece.)
   
Which tribe was it? The Nez Perce? No words for me, I, myself, etc in their language. I can't remember which one nor am I certain if that is true or rumor but sure sounds good.

Watching a documentary by Ken Burns brother about New York. Taking forever to get through it cuz I watch when I go to bed and it's like 8 parts. Halfway through part 5.
Watching that.........damn if we haven't been here before.

Hell with it.
Can you say 21? 21K here we come! Hell yeah!! Who cares. Let's go to 24. Say hey.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 22, 2017, 01:56:45 PM
...

Yugi, by now you have undoubtedly read the entire annual report (409 pages) and have seen for yourself that the quote, "the cynical use of ‘us vs them’ narratives of blame, hate and fear took on a global prominence to a level not seen since the 1930s" is nowhere to be found within the report.  And certainly not based on research as you had said.

So, if there is no relevance, why does Salil Shetty make reference the 1930's in his quote?  I see this simply as classic fear-mongering.

Stay skeptical my friend, even if it's AI...

I full-heartedly agree it’s best to check sources.

Take it up with Shetty by all means if you think a part of his statement was a bit loose. Or enlighten us if you know better or otherwise.

I’m no historian. The part that’s gotten your knickers in a twist didn’t bother me. I found other parts of the message more interesting. But I’d love to learn something.

Amnesty International is in the business of publishing very provocative stuff so I’d expect them to be very used to be fact checked when they publish something. I’m sure they are very open to feedback especially if you feel they could use correcting.

I haven’t finished reading every word just yet. You’ll have my report on your desk in the morning, sir.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 22, 2017, 03:20:37 PM
The part that’s gotten your knickers in a twist didn’t bother me.

Of course not, that "part" is strictly anecdotal.  It's the underlying message that's of concern.  There is a misleading inference, a corollary of the rise of fascism in the middle 30's to current events. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on February 22, 2017, 05:13:02 PM
The part that’s gotten your knickers in a twist didn’t bother me.

Of course not, that "part" is strictly anecdotal.  It's the underlying message that's of concern.  There is a misleading inference, a corollary of the rise of fascism in the middle 30's to current events.
People who shout fascism, Hitler, and Nazi, these days, are who now make up the alt-left.  Check out Sunsara Taylor, there are clips of her on YouTube, yikes, her brains are on fire, alt-left all the way.
I want no part of the alt-right or alt-left, and I think and hope that people are getting tired of all that, it's getting old, very old, and the more they keep it up, the worse it will be, primarily for them.  Cooler heads usually prevail, in this country anyway.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 22, 2017, 06:02:48 PM
Spot on bro. I fear the screaming more than anything.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on February 22, 2017, 07:42:58 PM
Check out Sunsara Taylor, there are clips of her on YouTube, yikes, her brains are on fire, alt-left all the way.
hahahahhaha. What have I been missing? Holy cow. For reals? Wow.
There's people out there like that and I guess there always has been but now it's easier to get a bit of exposure tho her twitter doesn't look like it got enough people following for how busy she is with it.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 23, 2017, 06:02:37 AM
About the screaming.....
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2017/0222/In-age-of-Trump-apocalyptic-rhetoric-becomes-mainstream
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: surf4food on February 23, 2017, 08:16:26 AM
Check out Sunsara Taylor, there are clips of her on YouTube, yikes, her brains are on fire, alt-left all the way.
hahahahhaha. What have I been missing? Holy cow. For reals? Wow.
There's people out there like that and I guess there always has been but now it's easier to get a bit of exposure tho her twitter doesn't look like it got enough people following for how busy she is with it.

Her and others like her do not represent the majority of liberals.  In fact she makes us cringe tho at the same time it's sort of fun to antagonize people who think like her.  Again she hardly represents most liberals, including those who consider themselves progressive. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on February 23, 2017, 09:39:50 AM
Just so long as you and the rest of the liberals (aka progressives) realize that it works both ways.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 23, 2017, 09:46:47 AM
I have a great idea.....lets put all the alt-left and alt-right on a deserted island with nothing but baseball bats...should make for good TV.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: surf4food on February 23, 2017, 09:51:11 AM
Just so long as you and the rest of the liberals (aka progressives) realize that it works both ways.

I think that goes without saying.  There's always extremists and extremists among extremists on both sides.  Then there's always people on which ever side who make blanket claims that all on the opposite side are all the same and think alike.  It's actually quite entertaining despite the consequences. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on February 23, 2017, 10:22:05 AM
she swung so far left she might be getting close to right. Alt something for sure. I wouldn't have a clue where to put her other than.....her brain is on fire.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 23, 2017, 03:19:02 PM

This behavior should worry even the most ardent support of Trump (what happens when Trump gets his own man in the FBI):
"White House officials had sought the help of the bureau and other agencies investigating the Russia matter to say that the reports were wrong and that there had been no contacts, the officials said. The reports of the contacts were first published by The New York Times and CNN on February 14.
The direct communications between the White House and the FBI were unusual because of decade-old restrictions on such contacts. Such a request from the White House is a violation of procedures that limit communications with the FBI on pending investigations."

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/23/politics/fbi-refused-white-house-request-to-knock-down-recent-trump-russia-stories/

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 23, 2017, 04:14:22 PM
About the screaming.....
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2017/0222/In-age-of-Trump-apocalyptic-rhetoric-becomes-mainstream

I've always considered Christian Science to put the moron in Oxymoron, but the Christian Science Monitor is pretty much the only newspaper I trust. Never have understood how or why that should be so.

I should research that.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 24, 2017, 04:55:11 AM
Interesting views on how China is handling world stage events.
   http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-39061702

Smart.

I gather it may be hard for those within the US (watching a certain flavor of news stream) to realise the degraded image America is now forging for itself. Nor it’s impact. Meanwhile world-stage “bad-boy” China is smart to profit and is bumping up its image.

The article only mentions in passing how China took the high road Re committing to respect international accords on protecting our fragile environment. That was a relief to one of my biggest fears in Trumps [after all not so] strange move [given he IS the corrupt swamp monster himself] to slap respect for the environment in the face by “selling out” to big oil and putting Pruitt in charge. Not pretty. I sure get the impression a good portion of America doesn’t understand the effort and the years of work it takes to actual make an international agreement. Even if it seems a day late and a dollar short.

I cannot understand how a forum where there are a majority of US surfers isn’t more outraged at the direction the protection of the environment is going.

Wake up! I live and SUP in a place where the efforts and regulations to protect the cleanliness of the waters has paid off. Yes, it did cost industry to be more clean. No, industry can’t pay off government just to make more profit by being more dirty. We are a democracy here and the people would not stand for it. No way would the people let industry pollute by simply corrupting the government.

In the 70’s people wondered if it was safe to swim in the lake where I paddle. Now I don’t even take a water with me, I drink directly from the lake when I’m thirsty. I enjoy top quality tap water - it’s better than any bottles stuff. No way do I drink tap water in the US, at least where I go. I now so distrust “official” US messages that I think I wouldn’t dare drink tapwater anywhere in the US. Just out of distrust.

I’m the kind of guy the last time I was in India I drank the tap water there from day 1 to the end. Never would I dare in the USA.

I’m deeply saddened by the news i hear of California surfer health issues. That’s more the kind of news one may expect from developing countries these days, not leading nations.

On a surf forum why aren’t we hearing more outrage on respect for the environment dammit? Is the propaganda there so effective or have they drugged you?

Wake up. Fight for your rights. One thing I expect Trump to do is create a whole new sector of activists. A la Louis IIV.

(same drapes BTW! although Louis IIV at least wore suits that fit him and may have had better taste is hairstyle!).
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 24, 2017, 05:10:02 AM
Uff, on that note I'm outa here..
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on February 24, 2017, 07:16:36 AM
Yugi, I   am   more   than   outraged ,  this  is  just  not  where  I  express  my  outrage .
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on February 24, 2017, 07:21:22 AM

I cannot understand how a forum where there are a majority of US surfers isn’t more outraged at the direction the protection of the environment is going.


Yes on this, can't understand why either. Don't want to return to the days of the Boston Harbor white fish floating around after a busy Friday and Saturday night. Or adorning my kid's sand castles with tampon applicators as I did 35 years ago as a kid.
Also I think investing in coal is similar to investing in steam engine technology. Oil is never going away, unless it runs out, but investment in renewables seems like the future, unless you own oil interests. Drilling national parks is something I'd only consider if it were a matter of national security.
Maybe Toyota can make the change, show people the shiney NASCAR race cars on tv during the weekend, and sell hydrogen fuel vehicles during the week.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 24, 2017, 07:45:23 AM
You won't drink the tapwater in the US but you will in India? ....that tells me all I need to know of your argument.


Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on February 24, 2017, 08:02:09 AM
You won't drink the tapwater in the US but you will in India? ....that tells me all I need to know of your argument.
You spent a lot of time on the ground in India lately?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SlatchJim on February 24, 2017, 08:29:13 AM
Yugi, can you explain Cap and Trade as it applies to pollution credits to me?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: surf4food on February 24, 2017, 08:40:02 AM
You won't drink the tapwater in the US but you will in India? ....that tells me all I need to know of your argument.

I think the notion of willingly drinking tap water in India but not at all in the U.S. is over the top, but the overall point of Yugi's argument is pretty valid. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on February 24, 2017, 09:23:07 AM
Hola Yugi.

Interesting views on how China is handling world stage events.
   http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-39061702
Smart.
I scanned through it..twice here and there. Yeah....I kinda gather that from the article.......China is playing it smart.

I gather it may be hard for those within the US (watching a certain flavor of news stream) to realise the degraded image America is now forging for itself.
Which flavor would this be? That is pretty much all I see from our media........a degraded image or ourself. A shitshow. Huh, how about that. Fits right in.
This appears to be a little bit more........subtle, perhaps trying to be coy...but a bit of the same flavor. Maybe not.
I don't think I could say that Trump is helping himself or ourselves as a whole in presenting a great image of our country but I do think I can say that the flavor of our news stream is really outdoing itself in forging a new image of our country. I have no clue how one could even imagine our news stream is presenting us in a favorable light.
Are there really people out there who would only follow Trumps twitter as their source of news? (ok, don't answer that one).
This posted earlier kinda fits right in there with that tho.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2017/0222/In-age-of-Trump-apocalyptic-rhetoric-becomes-mainstream

No way do I drink tap water in the US, at least where I go. I now so distrust “official” US messages that I think I wouldn’t dare drink tapwater anywhere in the US. Just out of distrust.

I’m the kind of guy the last time I was in India I drank the tap water there from day 1 to the end. Never would I dare in the USA.
What are "official" US messages? Trumps twitter? Something from a local town or county? You would have drank our water last summer in places but not now? Is that what you are saying? You trusted our "official" US messages before last month?

I get your passion but it's yet to be seen what's going to happen with all this new regulation or turning back some of them. The sky isn't falling (at least not yet). I don't know enough about the federal vs. state land deal to really comment on it but in a general sense I not so sure that's a bad idea for lots of land I look around and see. I am sure lots of people on the coast would rather their state keeps running stuff rather than the feds jumping in and saying how it should be. Of course it matters what the states intend to do with land they take over but from everywhere you look it sure appears from what you read or watch is that all the states want to do is ruin it. I really don't think that's the case. Has anyone really looked at just how stuff would change? If you got bitchin' stuff that spreads out over a few thousand acres........protect a few hundred thousand acres maybe and not a few million? I don't know but I really don't think anything out there suggests we are going to see Lake Erie on fire again or dump shit everywhere. Am I missing something?

One thing I expect Trump to do is create a whole new sector of activists.
You think?

Anyone notice that a couple weeks ago there was absolutely nothing you could find positive about Betsy DeVos? Suddenly she is a saint and a hero. Lots of glowing stuff about her out there now. I kind of think she is the same person she was last month. I sure wish I could change that fast..........or at all.

If I took you out of context and chopped all that up too much to make it seem like something different that was not my intention.
 i can say he has really done some things that have pissed me off....media coverage or not but the shit stream from the media is just awful
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUP Leave on February 24, 2017, 09:42:06 AM
Here is a quote from Pruitt's first speech to the EPA -

"Regulations ought to make things regular,” Pruitt said. “Regulations exist to give certainty to those they regulate. Those we regulate ought to know what’s expected of them so they can place and allocate resources to comply."

This is exactly what American Businesses have been saying for a long time. "We don't mind the regulations, we just need to know what they are so we can plan for them." I have heard this from multiple industrial clients. I should note that most of the work I do for these industrial clients is helping with upgrades to air scrubbers, wastewater systems, etc due to new environmental regulations.

Does Pruitt's appointment mean the end of clean water and air? The speech did not mention protecting the environment, but that the EPA needed to exist along with industry. Certainly a shift from the prior administration! Personally, I highly doubt any of the regulations I work with day to day will be affected at all. As a matter of fact I imagine that there will be very little roll back of regs, but the creation of new ones will definitely slow down. That is what businesses have been asking for. Does this scare anyone? Do you feel that more environmental regulations are needed from the Fed? Of course EPA regulators/staff are freaking out - their jobs may be at risk. I have heard a highly offensive saying in my industry "Those who cant do - teach, those who cant teach - research, and those who cant research - regulate." But really, there is no other job with less exposure than that of a regulator. It is a job that is almost impossible to be wrong - until now?

----- end environmental part ----

The thing that bothers me about politics and social media right now is that so few people have the ability to believe that 2 things can be true at the same time. There are many people out there who firmly believe that everything this administration does is bad, and an outrage - because of who did it. Trump does and says a ton of stupid shit, but occasionally he does something good (IMO). I hate the idea of a massive infrastructure bill - that is not a conservative policy in any way, shape or form, but may be the first piece of significant work that the new admin gets done. They have talked a lot about taxes, Obamacare, immigration - but the actual orders and actions have really not done anything at all (except pander to the (R) base and cause outrage from the left).

Tribalism is getting old, people who I like personally post things on the internet that makes me think less of them, and that bothers me. I know them to be good-hearted folks who are good company, but their political ideas rub me the wrong way. With every news story so fatalistic, it takes a long time to parse out the actual effect of the news item. Does anyone ever think "I  want to actually see the policy before I see if it is bad or not?" Or is it always going to be someone with an (R) or (D) next to their name said it, it has to be bad.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SlatchJim on February 24, 2017, 10:25:45 AM
I doubt that I have agreed with a post more that yours right here SUP Leave. Well said and concise.

It is a common belief among regulators that they are the holy paladins of the environment, and without them and their sage guidance, the world would crumble. This is particularly true of our (my company's) two state EPA enforcement branch regulators who fined the owner of our permitted treatment storage and disposal facility because we weren't permitted to handle aerosol cans.  The fact that YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO HAVE A PERMIT to accept aerosol cans probably hadn't sunk in yet.  When added to the fine for allowing oil and water to separate (because according to the state, they supercede the laws of physics), I'm convinced that what we have is a power mad and desparate agency fining industries for the sole purpose of income generation into that agency.  We actually had to file suit so that the waste streams we're permitted to accept could be subject to gravity (I can't make this stuff up).

I went into environmental remediation because I grew up in the smoggiest place in the country (at the time) and my mom did a great job of convincing me that litter is a sin against your own house. It's a good line of work with no small amount of satisfaction for leaving things better than they were.  But pollution cleanup isn't only the venue for tree huggers and leftists, nor is it the sole playground for large greedy corporations. Life isn't all or nothing, black and white, full stop conservative or "progressive." You can't make things better without the money to do so, and sensible guidance and regulation is required to do things right.

Like you SUP Leave, I have friends and family that post all or nothing posts in both directions, and I just don't have the time to sit down with each of them and discuss how they came to those views.  It seems the country as a whole needs a good slap in the face to wake up, understand that we should be having a discussion and not an arguement. It's not about "who's right and yells the loudest, but what's right and how to get it done. Calm down America, take the time to listen and stop being so dogmatic and useless.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 24, 2017, 10:54:21 AM
Good and thoughtful posts guys, thanks for taking the time.

China playing it smart could be a useful set of lessons for America, and/or the rest of the world.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on February 24, 2017, 11:30:50 AM
Make paddleboarding great again!
hahahahahaha...oh my. never saw that before. nice.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: mrbig on February 24, 2017, 01:41:14 PM
Thanks for some thoughtful posts..
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: ruralwaters on February 24, 2017, 02:15:32 PM
Some interesting numbers on the economic impact in California if ACA were repealed. 

http://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/californias-projected-economic-losses-under-aca-repeal/
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on February 24, 2017, 02:26:14 PM
I doubt that I have agreed with a post more that yours right here SUP Leave. Well said and concise.

It is a common belief among regulators that they are the holy paladins of the environment, and without them and their sage guidance, the world would crumble. This is particularly true of our (my company's) two state EPA enforcement branch regulators who fined the owner of our permitted treatment storage and disposal facility because we weren't permitted to handle aerosol cans.  The fact that YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO HAVE A PERMIT to accept aerosol cans probably hadn't sunk in yet.  When added to the fine for allowing oil and water to separate (because according to the state, they supercede the laws of physics), I'm convinced that what we have is a power mad and desparate agency fining industries for the sole purpose of income generation into that agency.  We actually had to file suit so that the waste streams we're permitted to accept could be subject to gravity (I can't make this stuff up).

I went into environmental remediation because I grew up in the smoggiest place in the country (at the time) and my mom did a great job of convincing me that litter is a sin against your own house. It's a good line of work with no small amount of satisfaction for leaving things better than they were.  But pollution cleanup isn't only the venue for tree huggers and leftists, nor is it the sole playground for large greedy corporations. Life isn't all or nothing, black and white, full stop conservative or "progressive." You can't make things better without the money to do so, and sensible guidance and regulation is required to do things right.

Like you SUP Leave, I have friends and family that post all or nothing posts in both directions, and I just don't have the time to sit down with each of them and discuss how they came to those views.  It seems the country as a whole needs a good slap in the face to wake up, understand that we should be having a discussion and not an arguement. It's not about "who's right and yells the loudest, but what's right and how to get it done. Calm down America, take the time to listen and stop being so dogmatic and useless.
Can you tell us what party you're in so we know whether to agree with this or not?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SlatchJim on February 24, 2017, 02:48:19 PM
Clever ruse PDX  ;)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 24, 2017, 04:07:19 PM
Felt like I was reading what I meant to say...... :). Great posts.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 24, 2017, 04:10:37 PM
You won't drink the tapwater in the US but you will in India? ....that tells me all I need to know of your argument.
You spent a lot of time on the ground in India lately?
No but i design water treatment plants for a living and have for the last 30 years and know well the level of sophistication of US facilities vs indian....the comment is ludicrous....as is yours.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 24, 2017, 06:45:01 PM
interesting persectives, thanks

You won't drink the tapwater in the US but you will in India? ....that tells me all I need to know of your argument.

I think the notion of willingly drinking tap water in India but not at all in the U.S. is over the top…

I know it is ludicrous. I put it in there to stir things up. While true it isn’t really a fair statement as it isn’t Apples Vs Apples. I was in the mountains up in kashmir and in the US I’m more in the big cities.

I do mostly believe what locals tell me. I was being facetious regarding both the shocking new disrespect for the truth the White House is showing and the mine water pollution problem that happened a couple of years ago in Colorado where the EPA failed to warn the population promptly despite being aware of the problem.

Yugi, can you explain Cap and Trade as it applies to pollution credits to me?

Oh shit. Can anyone explain that clearly?

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on February 24, 2017, 08:36:58 PM
You won't drink the tapwater in the US but you will in India? ....that tells me all I need to know of your argument.
You spent a lot of time on the ground in India lately?
No but i design water treatment plants for a living and have for the last 30 years and know well the level of sophistication of US facilities vs indian....the comment is ludicrous....as is yours.
Congrats man, didn't know that, sounds like a cool gig. You must have dealt with a lot of shit over the years, or if you're on the other end, I hope you guys are doing a good job, because I'm too cheap to buy bottled water.

I found this good reading on the background US/Russian hacking.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/06/trump-putin-and-the-new-cold-war
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on February 24, 2017, 08:43:04 PM
Morning lefties.
I sure am glad you have this thread to pontificate on.... cuz you got nothing else.
No President
No Congress
No Senate
Almost No Governors
Bleeding seats in every state. It must be frustrating to be so unappreciated all the time. ;D

ok, ok.... I'll say it for you, so you don't have to trouble yourselves
STFU creek, you “racist, Nazi, alt-right, misogynist, sexist, Islamophobe, xenophobe, deplorable climate-denier, uneducated, angry white man, drone cheerleader”

Enjoy your day scouring the interweb for more nasty things to say about the moron supporters of DT. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Congratulations man! But maybe next time please elect someone who can read? Thanks!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 24, 2017, 11:08:44 PM


So if this isn't worrying you there is something severely wrong with your judgement. Banning legitimate media based on to extent they agree wit has  it not is nothing short of facist.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/02/24/white-house-blocks-cnn-new-york-times-from-press-briefing-hours-after-trump-slams-media/?tid=sm_fb&utm_term=.d167ecb98470
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 25, 2017, 03:16:40 AM
Please taut it's not just a matter of disagreeing, they are doing everything they can to actively bring him down. They are no longer media they are activists....they deserve a good slap in the face. If you can't see that there is something seriously wrong with your perception....and judgement.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 25, 2017, 04:38:23 AM
Please stop insulting each other, guys.

Both viewpoints are IMO consistent with the evidence.

Trump IS acting in a way that is reminiscent of the early days of various fascist/demagogue leaders throughout history. So it's perfectly reasonable to be concerned about this.

And the media IS attacking Trump, and is having a real problem knowing how to deal with Trump, who seems to be actively picking fights with them at every opportunity rather than trying to keep them on his side as we are used to seeing.

Those who do not identify with Trump will fear change. Those who do will fear that change will be stifled.

Probably what both sides can agree on is that there is a big problem here, And that the situation is getting worse, not better. The only way of resolving it (non-violently) is going to be through dialogue and compromise. The chances of that happening decrease with every wild exaggerated outburst - from either side. As has been said on this forum several times now.

I would like to hear from Trump and his team as to what it is EXACTLY that is "fake" that is being reported by the media. I wish they'd spend a bit more time giving details, because while I do see bias in the media, I don't actually see deliberate false reporting: but then I don't know because I don't hear Trump's points, only his complaining. I can see that fear of hegemony through a "liberal elite" might indeed be reasonable for many people. For instance here is a news report of a British Muslim teacher who was accompanying his schoolchildren on a trip to the US but was removed from a flight without, apparently, explanation, playing to the fears of Trump critics:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/20/british-muslim-teacher-denied-entry-to-us-on-school-trip

On the face of it, this is shocking to liberals. But maybe there were other factors to this situation that we don't know about. The fact that Trump or his press team (or the US govt more broadly) do not give their perspective of these kinds of events forward, plays into the hands of his critics.

So, in the end, I don't know what to believe about events like these. And that is perhaps what bothers me most. It seems like you could put just about any interpretation on it that you'd like, and each narrative would be almost equally consistent with the known facts. "Post-truth" indeed.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: mrbig on February 25, 2017, 05:28:49 AM
Access denied. Khalid Khateb, whose film on the Syrian Civil War has been nominated for an Oscar, has been denied
suddenly to attend by the Department of Homeland Security.

I feel this is just the beginning. Papers please..

Derogatory Information.. :'(
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Admin on February 25, 2017, 06:15:16 AM
As a matter of fact I imagine that there will be very little roll back of regs

It is exactly that which is concerning.  Where there is a highly politicized issue Trump seems to enjoy being viewed as bold.  The Boldness itself seems to be the priority.  We have a ratings president.  That is why we see hurtful nonsense like the transgender protections removal this week.  I don't share your view that existing environmental regs are safe.   
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 25, 2017, 06:26:03 AM
But WHY was Khatib denied entry?

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/art/khaled-khatib-oscars-white-helmet-muslim-ban-syria-a7598836.html

This is going to be a test for Trump. This could be a deliberate provocation aimed at getting lots of the "Hollywood elite" to bleat about him at the Oscars, and so reinforce the narrative he's presenting to his supporters about being an outsider who is gonna shake up the liberal elite who are persecuting ordinary folk with political correctness. Or maybe there was just something odd with Khatib's passport. Or maybe Homeland Security fear for Khatib's own well-being if he comes to the US. Or maybe it's one of a thousand other possible explanations. We just don't know at this stage. However what we do know is that if this event has occurred for good reason rather than being a political game, we should get to hear a decent explanation. No explanation at all would be a very bad sign.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 25, 2017, 07:38:07 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-mju_gW3c8
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: mrbig on February 25, 2017, 07:57:20 AM
A10,

The facts (and who knows the real truth in these troubled times) that I believe are:

1. He applied for a visa which was approved.

2. Turkey changed their mind.

3. Homeland Security used the Derogatory Information clause (borrowed from U S Military security clearance protocols  OBTW) to cancel visa.

Will not speculate on Turkish motivation or US at this time..
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 25, 2017, 08:47:13 AM
Once again I find myself in complete agreement with A10. I'm starting to worry about myself.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 25, 2017, 08:48:08 AM
Thanks mrbig. So it might not be anything to do with Trump directly. Maybe. But I'm sure the Oscar speeches being written now won't say entertain that possibility.

There was a very thought-provoking documentary aired on terrestrial TV this week in the UK by Trevor Phillips:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-4251306/Political-correctness-gone-mad-writes-TREVOR-PHILLIPS.html

He was suggesting that the reactionary responses by well-meaning people were creating an atmosphere which promotes division and alienation.

I lived and worked for many years in some of the most deprived areas in Europe (and in the worst accommodation in those areas), and I have also lived and worked in some of the most privileged areas too. And these experiences taught me that the difference in perspective on the same events you get, according to your current environment and circumstances, is profound. What seems a totally unreasonable attitude soon seems surprisingly plausible once you've spent some time in another person' shoes.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 25, 2017, 08:50:19 AM
Once again I find myself in complete agreement with A10. I'm starting to worry about myself.
You and me both, then :)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on February 25, 2017, 09:03:00 AM


So if this isn't worrying you there is something severely wrong with your judgement. Banning legitimate media based on to extent they agree wit has  it not is nothing short of facist.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/02/24/white-house-blocks-cnn-new-york-times-from-press-briefing-hours-after-trump-slams-media/?tid=sm_fb&utm_term=.d167ecb98470
"Fascist"?  You too?  SMH.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: mrbig on February 25, 2017, 09:25:40 AM
And for a really good time Google White Helmet Film..

The diversity and extreme nature of the responses were astounding to say the least..

Does anybody really know what time it is? Old CTA tune before they rebranded themselves Chicago..

 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 25, 2017, 06:29:58 PM

So American Action forum did an estimate of how much it will cost to get rid of the "illegals". It is painfully obvious and so incredibly stupid to be focusing on this harmful nonsense. Before you dismiss this as fake news or some other ridiculous nonsense...the leader behind this center-right think tank is Led by Douglas Holtz-Eakin, former Director of the Congressional Budget Office, AAF and professor of economics.

"We estimate that the federal government would have to spend $400 billion to $600 billion over 20 years to accomplish these objectives. $100 billion to $300 billion would be spent on removing the entire current undocumented immigrant population from the United States. Moreover, an additional $315 billion would be needed to keep new immigrants from unlawfully living in the country.

Not only would it cost the taxpayer budget dollars, it would also greatly burden the economy. The labor force would shrink by 6.4 percent and, as a result, in 20 years the U.S. GDP would be almost 6 percent lower than it would be without fully enforcing current law. This equates to 11 million workers and $1.6 trillion lost."

These clowns needs to leave country business to professions and get back to their reality shows.

https://www.americanactionforum.org/research/the-budgetary-and-economic-costs-of-addressing-unauthorized-immigration-alt/

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 25, 2017, 06:47:45 PM
Please taut it's not just a matter of disagreeing, they are doing everything they can to actively bring him down. They are no longer media they are activists....they deserve a good slap in the face. If you can't see that there is something seriously wrong with your perception....and judgement.

This is nonsense. You have a president the uses casual insults as his go to communication tool..that questions basic and fundamental building blocks of a healthy democracy while not knowing basic governing principles then plays it up if someone answers. If you dish it, you gotta take it.

This is a president that truly means what ever he says is the truth (as also said by his people) regardless of what can be proven...he demands that he defines reality. I mean there are so many things he says that are easily falsified...and when the press points it out, it is some kind of an attack on him? Of course that will not give him any favors...the few real journalists at fox agrees entirely with this, and I bet you that they will not try to bring him down because they hate him...but because it is the job of a journalist to uncover information. This is why we have the 4th estate and why they are an important part of a healthy democracy.

A10. It isn't two sides to the same coin. While I understand what you are saying, and I can understand how it can be interpreted that way I fundamentally disagree. I am not against all GOP...DEMS isn't my team so to speak...as much as I think the press quality has been declining that past 20 years (still some good ones), I think now they are finally beginning to dig.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on February 25, 2017, 09:08:38 PM
The illegals "problem" doesn't exist. Ten years from now we will be paying these same people to come here.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 25, 2017, 09:38:19 PM
The illegals "problem" doesn't exist. Ten years from now we will be paying these same people to come here.

Yup. Bush had this one right.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Admin on February 26, 2017, 05:00:43 AM
Its funny.  The Carrier plant we "saved" from being built in Mexico will be almost entirely automated.  Don't fear Jose, recognize XT-27.  Incentifying select manufacturers to produce here = government funding of automation for these select groups.  Great for big business, not so much for workers and wages.  All under the guise of bringing home jobs.  Perfect.

Keeping eyes on the ball now, why are small businesses paying for large businesses to automate?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/indiana-gives-7-million-in-tax-breaks-to-keep-carrier-jobs-1480608461
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on February 26, 2017, 05:32:09 AM
Hell, I never worried about Jose it's Sancho that I wonder about.
Gesundheit!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on February 26, 2017, 06:07:00 AM
Between the wall and deporting everyone looking at a hefty bill.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/24/trumps-deportation-plan-could-cost-half-a-trillion-dollars.html
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on February 26, 2017, 08:23:05 AM
Here's an interesting article on trade deficit and employment.


Quote
This might look like a fulfilled prophecy given that the increasing trade deficit of the U.S. between 2000-2010 coincided with the loss of close to 6 million manufacturing jobs (yet, since 2010 the manufacturing sector has added over 800,000 new jobs). But the truth is that all advanced economies have been steadily reducing the share of employment in manufacturing, regardless of trade deficits or surpluses.

Rather than trade, increases in productivity and technology have been a much larger driver of manufacturing job losses. Compared to the early 1990s, it takes about half the number of workers today in the U.S. to produce the same output. In fact, from 2000 to 2010, while jobs were being lost, total manufacturing output increased by over $800 billion.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2017/02/23/nafta-under-trump-the-myths-and-the-possibilities/

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 26, 2017, 10:30:36 AM
The illegals "problem" doesn't exist. Ten years from now we will be paying these same people to come here.
Wrong....the "illegals" problem absolutely exists....I'm all for legal immigrants coming here.  But we need a system that works for all not the stupid status quo. At the same time we need a huge do-over of public education back to fundamentals and to recognize that not all kids should be getting pushed into college. Teach skills to those that aren't made for college....I know I certainly wasn't and would have been far better off. If we weren't failing so many kids so miserably we would have a far more competent workforce. Then bring people in for positions we truly can't fill. There will still be plenty. I want the upward pressure on wages that a legal workforce brings. As it stands now its primarily the wealthy and companies that profit from it. The poor and to a lesser extent the middle class continued to get screwed.

The development of replacing workers with automation is a big problem. What happened to the assertions previously that it wouldn't be so disruptive? I think we have a tsunami headed our way and none of our leaders seems to be doing anything....but making it easier for companies to replace workers. We need a cultural change as well. Corporations today care only about their stockholders.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on February 26, 2017, 01:14:19 PM
The illegals "problem" doesn't exist. Ten years from now we will be paying these same people to come here.
At the same time we need a huge do-over of public education back to fundamentals and to recognize that not all kids should be getting pushed into college. Teach skills to those that aren't made for college....I know I certainly wasn't and would have been far better off. If we weren't failing so many kids so miserably we would have a far more competent workforce. Then bring people in for positions we truly can't fill. There will still be plenty. I want the upward pressure on wages that a legal workforce brings. As it stands now its primarily the wealthy and companies that profit from it. The poor and to a lesser extent the middle class continued to get screwed.
You and me both might have made good grunts, except I bet neither of us like being told what to do. And you seem to have one or three too many marbles rolling around in your skull to just be a heavy lifter. Maybe you're just a late bloomer.
Seems a lot of European countries separate out folks for a skills type existence pretty early, the equivalent of jr. high or high school? I think in a lot of Euro countries you're getting almost the equivalent of a light liberal arts degree by the time you're done with high school. Would be good if you could merge a more skills intense curriculum while still trying to get folks to think critically and independently, and not just able to rewire your house. Also seems like a year or two of some type of military\service\volunteer work would be good for a lot of people before going off to college, I know I would have benefited from something like this. I've seen a lot of kids who take gap years now between high school and college, provided they can afford it. The Australians all seem to travel the fuck out of the place in their early twenties before returning home. Working for a year in a Kinkos might have the same benefit for many though.
But I feel for these kids who are getting out of school with tons of debt, seems unfair when a few generations ago people were getting good college educations for practically nothing.
There's the manufacturing automation that's pretty much here, but also an information automation that's coming down the way, that might cut into white collar jobs. Seems like the white collar middle class gigs are the ones holding up the joint, and being asked to bail everyone else out, not sure how things will play out once they're on the chopping block. How many leaks can you put your finger in before you're just totally underwater.
Also if you believe George Carlin, that we're just here and barely educated enough to run the man's machines, what happens when the machines can run themselves? What do you do with an unemployed workforce? Put in more seats at the circus and turn up the volume, or start handing out Soma so everyone can just go on a virtual vacation? Or start turning one faction against the other and just let themselves eat each other up?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 26, 2017, 02:29:15 PM
My fear is the last thing you said....my anger with the ridiculously partisan nature of the press is that they help create this atmosphere. It's people unwilling to find the middle that piss me off the most.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: surf4food on February 26, 2017, 02:47:26 PM
Liberal bias doesn't necessarily mean the facts themselves are wrong. And it's not like Trump hasn't been lying through his teeth.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 26, 2017, 04:41:36 PM
Please taut it's not just a matter of disagreeing, they are doing everything they can to actively bring him down. They are no longer media they are activists....they deserve a good slap in the face. If you can't see that there is something seriously wrong with your perception....and judgement.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/26/media/new-york-times-editor-dean-baquet-subscriptions/

https://youtu.be/gY0Fdz350GE

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 26, 2017, 05:39:25 PM
And I've never said the facts themselves are necessarily wrong. It's more how they are presented and the lack of effort to bring facts when it doesn't suit their ideology.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 26, 2017, 05:44:05 PM
^ c'est la vie

the world all over
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 26, 2017, 05:51:04 PM
My fear is the last thing you said....my anger with the ridiculously partisan nature of the press is that they help create this atmosphere. It's people unwilling to find the middle that piss me off the most.
Well, Trump is surely being every bit as biased and black-and-white as the press are? Not everything that e.g. the New York Times etc says can be "fake news", surely? And yet Trump is suggesting that sort of thing.

I do wonder sometimes whether you've just elected Frank Drebin president.

https://youtu.be/piBjvEtwrzc

Maybe Trump is the liberator of all good people from the tyranny of liberal progressive thinking: a true visionary. Maybe he's a dictator in the making. Or maybe he's Frank Drebin. People are just seeing in the evidence whatever narrative fits with their predispositions. Personally, I'm leaning towards Frank Drebin. But I am scouring all news sources for data that challenges that view, and I have low confidence in any of these narratives, including my currently favoured one.

But the fact that I can even entertain the notion that the most powerful person in the world could be either of two of these possibilities is frankly extremely worrying. Is there anything Stoneaxe, that you can point me to in Trump's behaviour or achievements as president so far that would convince me beyond reasonable doubt that Trump is not either (a) a dictator in the making, or (b) Frank Drebin? I desperately want to be reassured.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 26, 2017, 07:32:26 PM
Maybe Trump is the liberator of all good people from the tyranny of liberal progressive thinking: a true visionary.

His grip on reality is so poor that there is nothing visionary about it...more like hallucinatory...and that doesn;t create good presidents.

I am just glad it seems his security team has tightened up a bit...well except for throwing Bannon in there...
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: deepmud on February 26, 2017, 08:58:41 PM


So if this isn't worrying you there is something severely wrong with your judgement. Banning legitimate media based on to extent they agree wit has  it not is nothing short of facist.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/02/24/white-house-blocks-cnn-new-york-times-from-press-briefing-hours-after-trump-slams-media/?tid=sm_fb&utm_term=.d167ecb98470
"Fascist"?  You too?  SMH.

Not to push your buttons - but to get inside your shoes - you clearly see this cartoon as a valid representation of Trump's frustration with the media. How you feel is how you feel - it's real.

Can you articulate it ? Does the cartoon really validate your feelings or is it over the top?

My feelings are more like this one:

(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16939018_1273506399396235_5223644385264679287_n.jpg?oh=ed47f5cfce9d648f418081cfdac67678&oe=5926B690)

That being said - Jefferson had a "pocket" newspaper . He didn't invent Fake News - but he was was perhaps the first source of it in the United 13 Colonies. He pushed John Adam's buttons to the point that the First Amendment was in serious trouble from the get-go (IMHO) - "The Sedition Act resulted in the prosecution and conviction of many Jeffersonian newspaper owners who disagreed with the government." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts

I personally can't stand that Trump - mostly for his BS factor - I don't actually care that he's spending 3 million a weekend in Florida - but it annoys me he loved to talk up Obama flying to Hawaii as if it was a real vacation (Presidents are always "on-call"/working) .  The freakin' US of A  can afford a few million here and there  for the President.  I can't stand that he gets butt-hurt all the time - example : by a comparison of crowds vs. Obama's inauguration ( my God - the first black president is going to have big crowd get over it who cares -  Trump should not give a damn ).

I already voted for a Maverick once -  I thought "how could it be worse than the shitshow we already have?" - it turned out it COULD BE worse. She quit at two years and we were left with the stand-in. Would Pence do ok if Trump bails out? Speaking from experience - it seems a possibility.

 

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on February 26, 2017, 09:15:59 PM
how does it go?
We were the coolest, huh?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qN5zw04WxCc
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on February 26, 2017, 10:26:23 PM
this one too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWWMmxyKOR0

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on February 26, 2017, 11:26:35 PM
Side bar again.
I swear.
Is this the shit or what?
Wow!
more thatn enough from me.....
Back to your regularly  scheduled shit show.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEjkftp7J7I
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on February 27, 2017, 04:18:44 AM

His grip on reality is so poor that there is nothing visionary about it...more like hallucinatory...and that doesn;t create good presidents  precedents.

I am just glad it seems his security suit fitting team has tightened things up a bit...well except for throwing Bannon in there.... Best that guy isn't seen in a suit that fits.

^ fixed it for you

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: deepmud on February 27, 2017, 09:01:26 AM


So if this isn't worrying you there is something severely wrong with your judgement. Banning legitimate media based on to extent they agree wit has  it not is nothing short of facist.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/02/24/white-house-blocks-cnn-new-york-times-from-press-briefing-hours-after-trump-slams-media/?tid=sm_fb&utm_term=.d167ecb98470
"Fascist"?  You too?  SMH.
(http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=31196.0;attach=81509;image)


EDITED - this is to weaselswake - I'm genuinely interested in understanding this different point of view - END EDIT:

Not to push your buttons - but to get inside your shoes - you clearly see this cartoon as a valid representation of Trump's frustration with the media. How you feel is how you feel - it's real.

Can you articulate it ? Does the cartoon really validate your feelings or is it over the top?

My feelings are more like this one:

(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16939018_1273506399396235_5223644385264679287_n.jpg?oh=ed47f5cfce9d648f418081cfdac67678&oe=5926B690)

That being said - Jefferson had a "pocket" newspaper . He didn't invent Fake News - but he was was perhaps the first source of it in the United 13 Colonies. He pushed John Adam's buttons to the point that the First Amendment was in serious trouble from the get-go (IMHO) - "The Sedition Act resulted in the prosecution and conviction of many Jeffersonian newspaper owners who disagreed with the government." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts

I personally can't stand that Trump - mostly for his BS factor - I don't actually care that he's spending 3 million a weekend in Florida - but it annoys me he loved to talk up Obama flying to Hawaii as if it was a real vacation (Presidents are always "on-call"/working) .  The freakin' US of A  can afford a few million here and there  for the President.  I can't stand that he gets butt-hurt all the time - example : by a comparison of crowds vs. Obama's inauguration ( my God - the first black president is going to have big crowd get over it who cares -  Trump should not give a damn ).

I already voted for a Maverick once -  I thought "how could it be worse than the shitshow we already have?" - it turned out it COULD BE worse. She quit at two years and we were left with the stand-in. Would Pence do ok if Trump bails out? Speaking from experience - it seems a possibility.

Re-quoted with both relevant cartoons still in there. Sorry to have to repost.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on February 27, 2017, 10:01:50 AM
Deepmud, thanks for reposting the cartoon I posted, I really like it.

To answer your question I'll use an example.
Remember Tom Foley?  He was the speaker of the House during the Carter administration, he said, while referring to the false accusation that George Bush made a deal with Iran to hold all those 400+ American hostages until after Reagan got elected to embarrass Carter, "The seriousness of the charge mandates that we investigate this", and followed up with "even though there is no evidence, the seriousness of the charge is what matters".
I lost my faith in the left and their willing partners in the main stream media during that.
Very similar to when I lost my faith in the judicial system on the day O.J. Simpson was found not guilty.

I believe being suspicious is a healthy thing.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 27, 2017, 10:54:56 AM
Deepmud, thanks for reposting the cartoon I posted, I really like it.

To answer your question I'll use an example.
Remember Tom Foley?  He was the speaker of the House during the Carter administration, he said, while referring to the false accusation that George Bush made a deal with Iran to hold all those 400+ American hostages until after Reagan got elected to embarrass Carter, "The seriousness of the charge mandates that we investigate this", and followed up with "even though there is no evidence, the seriousness of the charge is what matters".
I lost my faith in the left and their willing partners in the main stream media during that.
Very similar to when I lost my faith in the judicial system on the day O.J. Simpson was found not guilty.

I believe being suspicious is a healthy thing.

What do you mean no evidence? He lost lost several people due to their connections with the Russians already. There are reports of direct close ties and contacts with Russia..and Trumps unwillingness to be transparent would have most of you guy up in arms if it were the any of the dems. Definitely more than enough to warrant an investigation...




Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on February 27, 2017, 11:40:47 AM
Yeah, and while they are at it, they should investigate how in hell did the Russians hack the Oscars also.
They are good, very, very good.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 27, 2017, 12:48:23 PM
So you guys are going to spend 54 billion dollars more on defence? You already have a bigger military machine than just about everyone else put together. What on earth are you scared of? You could obliterate any enemy many times over. Wouldn't it be more productive of change to spend that money on e.g. job creation schemes, education, or healthcare?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39108194
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: freetobeme on February 27, 2017, 01:01:31 PM
So you guys are going to spend 54 billion dollars more on defence? You already have a bigger military machine than just about everyone else put together. What on earth are you scared of? You could obliterate any enemy many times over. Wouldn't it be more productive of change to spend that money on e.g. job creation schemes, education, or healthcare?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39108194


Geesh. What'd ya think this is all sunshine and unicorns over here. That healthy smart people anecdote your conjuring up ain't gonna make Merica great again. We got brown people to kill, resources to stockpile and God will bless us the whole way through. Hoorah.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Admin on February 27, 2017, 01:11:08 PM
You could obliterate any enemy many times over.

Except the ones that we actually fight.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: deepmud on February 27, 2017, 02:14:11 PM
Deepmud, thanks for reposting the cartoon I posted, I really like it.

To answer your question I'll use an example.
Remember Tom Foley?  He was the speaker of the House during the Carter administration, he said, while referring to the false accusation that George Bush made a deal with Iran to hold all those 400+ American hostages until after Reagan got elected to embarrass Carter, "The seriousness of the charge mandates that we investigate this", and followed up with "even though there is no evidence, the seriousness of the charge is what matters".
I lost my faith in the left and their willing partners in the main stream media during that.
Very similar to when I lost my faith in the judicial system on the day O.J. Simpson was found not guilty.

I believe being suspicious is a healthy thing.


Well - Iran/Contra later made it seem less "tin hat", don't you think?  - but how do you connect Foley with the media? Why do you see media as "kiss my hand, etc? in the cartoon?

Wasn't it 52 hostages?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on February 27, 2017, 03:38:10 PM
Yeah, that sounds better, I was thinking the number of days being held by accident.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: jpeter on February 27, 2017, 06:27:06 PM
I am starting to tire of the news media thumping their chests about freedom of the press and how important it is so they can do their job, and save us from the evil Trump.  Fact is the mainstream media is the reason Trump is in office right now.   They all wanted Hillary from day one, ignored her problems and propped her up on a pedestal.     During the primary they (media and DNC)wanted Trump on top as he seemed an easy opponent.    Oops, that didn't work !
   
Trump is a complete ass who will embarrass us daily,  but is so out of place in politics it is somehow sickly refreshing. 

DT's biggest problem is going to be how to steer the republican congress to keep them from hanging themselves.  All the while keeping back a revolt if he doesn't do every stupid thing they want.   Until he pisses off a quarter of his own party for being too liberal and brings over the same amount of democrats,  he is doomed.

Watching the shit show from my Libertarian perch. 

JP       
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 27, 2017, 07:17:32 PM
Yeah, and while they are at it, they should investigate how in hell did the Russians hack the Oscars also.
They are good, very, very good.

I mean the hacking of the DNC wasn't very clever...it was just an incredibly poor job of the DNC staff that fell for it. Was social hacking with a slight twist. Not hard at all, but it takes a bit of effort. 

A.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 27, 2017, 07:26:21 PM
They all wanted Hillary from day one, ignored her problems and propped her up on a pedestal.     During the primary they (media and DNC)wanted Trump on top as he seemed an easy opponent.    Oops, that didn't work !
Weird...if they "wanted" a candidate they would not have written anything bad about her, yet the final two weeks were all about a problem of non-existent emails.
If you look at what media matters writes about it: https://mediamatters.org/blog/2016/04/15/media-analysis-shows-hillary-clinton-has-received-most-negative-stories-least-positive-stories-all/209945
She actually got the most negative press of all.

Quote
   
Watching the shit show from my Libertarian perch. 


Is that the perch held up by oxymorons? ;-) heh.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on February 27, 2017, 10:14:36 PM

"Nobody knew healthcare could be so complex" - Trump
Unless, of course, you actually had any kind of competency about it.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/27/politics/trump-health-care-complicated/index.html

He also promises the health care insurance companies are going to: "I think we’ll get you on, and I think you’re going to like what you hear.". I hope is willing to push hard, but I am not sure I trust that insurance companies will like the same thing as their customers and the overall country. We'll see. 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/02/27/remarks-president-trump-listening-session-health-insurance-company-ceos
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: jpeter on February 28, 2017, 05:08:49 AM
Taut,  If you think Hillary got negative press coverage during the election,  then there's not much I can say.   My main point is that if The media was doing their job from day one,  reporting and investigating,  we would not have been in a lesser of two evils situation.   
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 28, 2017, 05:15:45 AM
Did you seriously just use media matters as a source......no bias there.. ::)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 28, 2017, 06:59:56 AM
"Nobody knew healthcare could be so complex" - Trump
Unless, of course, you actually had any kind of competency about it.

There are very few that fully understand the complexities of both the clinical and economic aspects of healthcare under the ACA.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on February 28, 2017, 09:22:46 AM
"Nobody knew healthcare could be so complex" - Trump
Unless, of course, you actually had any kind of competency about it.

There are very few that fully understand the complexities of both the clinical and economic aspects of healthcare under the ACA.

Maybe he'll soon learn that environmental protection, immigration, job stimulation, equal rights, national security, etc, are also a bit more complex.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on February 28, 2017, 10:28:52 AM
Shock, horror! Kellyanne Conway has her shoes on the Oval Office sofa!

Geez, whatever next?

Maybe she'll hire some French police marksmen to do the security at Trump's next appearance :)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/kellyanne-conway-feet-up-oval-office-sofa-donald-trump-white-house-strong-reaction-twitter-a7603206.html

"Kellyanne Conway: "Stop mocking me. I actually lost my legs in the Bowling Green Massacre"" Hilarious!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on February 28, 2017, 12:07:43 PM
Ummm...let's remember that the ACA had to be passed so we could see what was in it. You guys were OK with that I assume.... ::)

I'd imagine there are a few stains still left on that couch from Clinton so having her feet up on it probably doesn't matter. Classless move but the ridiculous liberal outcry is so typical.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUP Leave on February 28, 2017, 12:30:55 PM
The Shitshow live is coming tonight. Going to be very exciting, I fully expect it to be an absolute horror show for the media. I'm sure Trump will tell us how it is a record-setting crowd for a state of the union at least 2x.

I looked at Trumps spending plan - and it is pretty much what I expected: Not a disaster, not fiscally conservative and not very impactful (is that a word)?

Things that will get the left P.O.'d
- 14% budget cut to IRS
- 20% budget cut to EPA
- Increase defense spending by $54b

Things that are not conservative:
-Trillions in infrastructure (this was Bernie's idea)
-Won't touch entitlements (will any politician ever have the balls to?)

They are going to roll out a weak repeal of Obamacare too. It is all but guaranteed. It will be O'care light IMO. I just don't see the Rs having enough guts to make a real replacement, one that goes back to the free market. Bad political press is too important for them, and the D's are just daring them to do it so that they can trash them with all of the horror stories. What I have seen is basically O'care without the mandate to buy, but with more subsidies from the Gov't.

Another bad - The cuts above don't even come close to helping with the debt, plus the new debt from the infrastructure package. Infrastructure should be a local/state program, not national. The only way to ever touch the debt is the entitlements, and we may never see a politician in our lives touch them until the country is broke.

I urge all of you to read between the lines on this speech. It is going to be a full on load of baloney, and what we are getting is not what many voters on the Right were hoping for. Trump is hanging on to his base with the noise he makes (they love it), but unless he starts to actually do conservative things that is going to wear out pretty quickly. The biggest budget item is the infrastructure deal and that is something we would have gotten with Clinton or Bernie -except Trumps deal is bigger than Clintons!

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: mrbig on February 28, 2017, 01:36:04 PM
Geez, you mean ALL this stuff is complex, complicated, convoluted, and the laws of unintended consequences will act like a wolf and throw snow in your eyes ( a Sufi  Mystic quote..)!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on February 28, 2017, 02:13:19 PM
That about sums it up Biggie!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Admin on March 01, 2017, 03:33:09 AM
- Increase defense spending by $54b

We need that to help replace the 27,000 nuclear weapons that we have reduced.  This is money well spent.  A trillion dollars a decade for something that makes us less safe.  But, freaking terrific for ratings.  Let's do it Bigly.

(https://fas.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/history2017.jpg)

(https://fas.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Inventories2017-2.jpg)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on March 01, 2017, 08:36:15 AM
On a happier note, Bloomberg:

So why is the Scandinavian nation (Denmark) finding it necessary to make cuts to its fabled welfare programs? Driving the new government’s push is a desire to finance a major round of income tax cuts.

"We want to promote a society in which it is easier to support yourself and your family before you hand over a large share of your income to fund the costs of society," the government of Prime Minister Lars Lokke Rasmussen wrote in its manifesto. (Emphasis added)


Now that's a refreshing perspective.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on March 01, 2017, 08:45:29 AM
^ do you have any idea of the level of taxation [or anything] in Denmark?

I mean as in before you go look that up after making your comment.

That result is like, duh. Hellooo. The message being? That somewhere taxes are being reduced? It means nothing if you take into account where they are coming from.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SlatchJim on March 01, 2017, 08:58:23 AM
^ do you have any idea of the level of taxation [or anything] in Denmark?
So I looked it up.  A nudge over 48%
http://www.thelocal.dk/20141210/danes-face-the-worlds-highest-tax-burden-oecd
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on March 01, 2017, 09:02:58 AM
Yes Yugi, I have a working knowledge of the Danish income-tax structure.  I've even been to LEGOLAND! ;D 

With respect to the message, it speaks for itself...
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on March 01, 2017, 09:54:41 AM
The Danish have one of the highest rates of personal taxation in the world. But this also means that they have reduced inequalities between people. Which may be one reason why they regularly come out one of the top countries of the world in terms of the happiness of the population.

http://www.livescience.com/51325-happiest-countries-2014.html

So, reduced taxation does not necessarily lead to happiness.

I guess it depends whether you want to be miserable and far richer (or poorer) than your neighbour, or happy and more similar in wealth :) :)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on March 01, 2017, 10:13:02 AM
Income redistribution so that everybody can rise to equal levels of mediocracy.
Jeremy Corbyn is a fan.

Jeremy Corbyn sings Communist anthem with activists who shared shocking anti-Semitic posts about the 'ugly Israeli species'
>The Labour leader sang the Red Flag with pro-Palestine campaigners in Bristol
>He was pictured embracing two activists who have shared anti-Semitic posts
>Mr Corbyn also attended an event run by a Muslim organisation which stated the Labour party was 'indebted to Jewish financiers'
>He was pictured chatting with a rapper who calls for violence against Israel
>MailOnline's revelations reapply pressure on beleaguered Labour leader who is facing rock bottom popularity ratings after by-election failure in Copeland


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4253926/Jeremy-Corbyn-NEW-anti-Semitism-row.html#ixzz4a6DAnT13
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on March 01, 2017, 10:29:53 AM
In a speech some papers hailed as almost presidential (how low is the bar???). He launch an even more extreme point of view. This is authoritarianism in the making. And immigrants are his targets..the public focal point when he makes drastic changes to benefit his cronies / goonies. He announced that he will launch VOICE, an agency to publish all crimes made by immigrants. If you are non-white immigrant you'll be in for a rough time. Look for an even steeper increase in hate crime.

 
The fact that this was not the headline instead of his reconciliatory election campaign nonsense show how bad the press core is. For the most part they have such a low bar that anything he says that can seem remotely human or as if he has a conscience makes them go...ohh maybe he can be a president.

Yeah oh and by the way..most of the claims he made is provably false. Because this is something they wrote up before and he was just reading they are outright and intentional lies.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-speech-voice-immigrants-crimes-list-agency-donald-joint-address-congress-a7604836.html
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on March 01, 2017, 10:57:41 AM
Your comments of the sky is falling are getting old. He won, he has four years to prove his agenda...two really. The republic has withstood worse. You'll just have to deal with the fact that the republicans have taken charge and now have the opportunity to have things their way. Your starting to sound like the far right claiming that Obama is helping his muslim brothers.  Are we going to keep this crappy thread live his whole administration with you posting links to every negative article you can find?

BTW...creek is right this conversation is hurting the zone as a place to enjoy. On that note....I'm done here...this stupid thing is putting me in a bad mood.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on March 01, 2017, 11:09:21 AM
Income redistribution so that everybody can rise to equal levels of mediocracy.
Jeremy Corbyn is a fan.
Denmark does very well in terms of most indicators such as productivity, education etc actually. I'd be interested to hear what you think the US is better at.

Across Europe there is a crisis for social democratic parties. Corbyn is one of the UK's indicators of this. Everyone knows that Corbyn is unelectable. But who else is there? The problem goes beyond individual personalities however. It is about confidence in a political philosophy. No-one is sure what to believe in any more, and in the absence of such a philosophy, anything can happen - and is happening, as Brexit and the rank failure of virtually every poll is showing. The rise of the far right across a Europe is largely because they are presenting an easy-to-digest philosophy: one of hate and fear. All bets are off. It will be interesting to see if the EU still exists by the time that the UK gets to leave it (at a cost of over £50 billion GBP!).
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUP Leave on March 01, 2017, 11:31:13 AM
FWIW - I enjoy this thread, it doesn't put me in a bad mood. I have plenty of friends who differ with me politically. One thing I believe whole heatedly is the durability of the Constitution, and so I fear no despots or authoritarianism, or the extinction of American Culture due to a few bad leaders in a row. I also believe that the President is an elected officer, who works for me and you, and that politicians (by and large) are dumb and in place to further their own political lives. Very few of them do it as a temporary service to their country. That is why I am excited about this cabinet - many of them are taking a break from whatever their real job is to serve.


In a speech some papers hailed as almost presidential (how low is the bar???). He launch an even more extreme point of view. This is authoritarianism in the making. And immigrants are his targets..the public focal point when he makes drastic changes to benefit his cronies / goonies. He announced that he will launch VOICE, an agency to publish all crimes made by immigrants. If you are non-white immigrant you'll be in for a rough time. Look for an even steeper increase in hate crime.

 
The fact that this was not the headline instead of his reconciliatory election campaign nonsense show how bad the press core is. For the most part they have such a low bar that anything he says that can seem remotely human or as if he has a conscience makes them go...ohh maybe he can be a president.

Yeah oh and by the way..most of the claims he made is provably false. Because this is something they wrote up before and he was just reading they are outright and intentional lies.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-speech-voice-immigrants-crimes-list-agency-donald-joint-address-congress-a7604836.html

I was wrong about the speech - it was more unifying than I thought it would be and he didn't touch on the feud with the press. He stayed completely on the prompter -which was pretty different from what he had been doing. My post above regarding the tenor of the speech was wrong.

Tautologies - I read the article you posted and then I read the Ex Order to see what I took from it. https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/01/25/presidential-executive-order-enhancing-public-safety-interior-united (https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/01/25/presidential-executive-order-enhancing-public-safety-interior-united)


The VOICE program Ex Order has been out since January 25th I believe. So there has been plenty of time to lose our minds about this, but the press is just not up to digging anymore. The EO clearly states Aliens and Removable Aliens who:

" (a)  Have been convicted of any criminal offense;

(b)  Have been charged with any criminal offense, where such charge has not been resolved;

(c)  Have committed acts that constitute a chargeable criminal offense;

(d)  Have engaged in fraud or willful misrepresentation in connection with any official matter or application before a governmental agency;

(e)  Have abused any program related to receipt of public benefits;

(f)  Are subject to a final order of removal, but who have not complied with their legal obligation to depart the United States; or

(g)  In the judgment of an immigration officer, otherwise pose a risk to public safety or national security. "

 IMO - the VOICE list is how the Fed is going to attempt to force local jurisdictions to abandon "sanctuary" status. Basically, forcing state and local police to verify immigration status when making an arrest. There are clauses in the EO above that threaten to curtail funding for states not complying with the EO. I guess this is where you come out with Authoritarianism, correct? In that the Fed is trying to get the states to follow the existing immigration laws or lose funding? If the argument is that individual states should be able to have their own law/order on immigration - I could probably go for that, but then each state would need it's own border to be controlled. Wouldn't then each state become it's own country - and the fed wouldn't have to fund them anyway? The EO is just re-affirming that the states should follow the existing immigration laws, track immigration status of people committing crimes, and prioritizing who should get deported first.

If the states comply with the EO there could be an opportunity to get some good data from the VOICE list that could refute the necessity of the EO - what we will most likely find out is that the highest percentage of crimes are committed by Americans.

However, I am having a hard time figuring out how the deportation priority list above should make me upset. Someone please enlighten.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on March 01, 2017, 11:53:14 AM
Your comments of the sky is falling are getting old. He won, he has four years to prove his agenda...two really. The republic has withstood worse. You'll just have to deal with the fact that the republicans have taken charge and now have the opportunity to have things their way. Your starting to sound like the far right claiming that Obama is helping his muslim brothers.  Are we going to keep this crappy thread live his whole administration with you posting links to every negative article you can find?

BTW...creek is right this conversation is hurting the zone as a place to enjoy. On that note....I'm done here...this stupid thing is putting me in a bad mood.

+1 - Last post for me on this tread, for now
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on March 01, 2017, 12:34:57 PM
Your comments of the sky is falling are getting old. He won, he has four years to prove his agenda...two really. The republic has withstood worse. You'll just have to deal with the fact that the republicans have taken charge and now have the opportunity to have things their way. Your starting to sound like the far right claiming that Obama is helping his muslim brothers.  Are we going to keep this crappy thread live his whole administration with you posting links to every negative article you can find?

BTW...creek is right this conversation is hurting the zone as a place to enjoy. On that note....I'm done here...this stupid thing is putting me in a bad mood.

No you are comparing apples and oranges. If you think most regime changes happens over night you are mistaken. Regime changes usually happens with boundaries being pushed a little bit at the time. I think it is important to have a stake in the ground. Obviously, I dislike Trump and many in his cabinet (I am pleasantly surprised at his choice for security cabinet led by McMasters...I am hoping he will be strong enough to push Bannon out because politics does not belong in that room).

So Stone, I am assuming you aren't particularly in favor of fundamental regime change(?). Where is your stake in the ground? When do you say enough?
Also, you say the republic has withstood worse? What are you referring to then?

:-)

Also..I am obviously not posting all the articles out there.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on March 01, 2017, 01:44:08 PM
Quote
However, I am having a hard time figuring out how the deportation priority list above should make me upset. Someone please enlighten.

(b)  Have been charged with any criminal offense, where such charge has not been resolved;
(c)  Have committed acts that constitute a chargeable criminal offense;
(g)  In the judgment of an immigration officer, otherwise pose a risk to public safety or national security.


This is purposefully vague so to give law enforcement unquestioned power to harass and punish anyone they feel like. You don't have to commit a criminal offence, only be charged with one. If Bubba the Texas deputy charges you with rape or jaywalking, you are now subject to deportation. Think it won't happen? Ask Muhammad Ali Jr.


Quote
Basically, forcing state and local police to verify immigration status when making an arrest.

SUP leave, do you carry a US passport or certified birth certificate with you at all times. Next time you're stopped for a broken taillight, would you be able to produce documents on the spot that proves you are in the US legally? Think it won't happen? Ask the passengers that were deplaning in NY from a domestic flight.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on March 01, 2017, 02:28:45 PM
....
 I also believe that the President is an elected officer, who works for me and you, and that politicians (by and large) are dumb and in place to further their own political lives. Very few of them do it as a temporary service to their country.
...


i like that point.

Some are not power crazed. Some do serve their country, and work for a better world.

   https://youtu.be/4GX6a2WEA1Q


Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on March 01, 2017, 03:02:51 PM
(g)  In the judgment of an immigration officer, otherwise pose a risk to public safety or national security. "

That's the one that maybe bothers me the most. Too much left open to too much........of ones own opinion. Not always the sharpest tool in the shed who will be making these decisions.
I will just leave that there.
I thought he sounded good last night. I got no issues with that. I was actually happy to see the news I watched last night (cbs for the most part) was coherent and realistic about the whole thing.
Who was the numbskull they called on for the rebuttal? Geez, shouldn't they at the very least had someone to at least comment on what was actually said and rebutt it (is that a word?) rather than some prepared something or another that sounded just like more of the same yakkity yak? Were they thinking all of Trumps supporters got that twang going on and this was for all them deplorables? "hey....let's get this southern guy out to show everyone......" I can't for the life of me remember any other previous rebuttal but I think I may remember that one next time this rolls around again.
Pence and his constant grin and Ryan and his ears were something but I always kind of liked that sour puss on Boehner's face there behind Obama. I think that's just the way he is tho.
Civil war? 1812? McCarthy? Bay of Pigs? We've been through a lot. We going to be fine.....not everyone will always like what is going on. Just the way it is.........has been, and will be. (i think anyways)
I still think him going as an independent next go around is something that could happen. We are not really set up for two parties in that the house and senate are republican or democrat. It has just evolved that way and they vote overwhelmingly partisan so it seems that way. With all he got on the plate..........who knows. Going to be an interesting few years to say the least.
Please, don't post all the articles.
 ;)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on March 01, 2017, 04:34:36 PM
First of all, what country of any real size can take a lesson from Denmark? Five million people. Wow, what a challenge to govern.  London has 9 million. California has 38 million.  Really, nice job, who gives a shit. Rhode Island is nice too.


As for administrations we were lucky to survive, for all the talk of the golden 1000 days of the Kennedy Administration, I'd have to consider that a pretty destructive bunch. A bunch of Harvard and Yale guys demonstrating how tough they were. You can track a lot of bad beginnings back to that brief span of time. To whatever degree I really believe in M theory there have to be a lot of alternative universes where our planet is a cooling cinder. The notion of American intervention and regime change started there. Maybe Eisenhower started the ball rolling, but Kennedy gave it a big kick.

We also survived Bush II, who probably wasn't as bad a president as everyone claims, but if the press had been on his ass like they are on Trump, he would have looked like the devil and his band of demons.

Then there's President Obama. I think he inherited a perfect storm, but then he made a hash of almost everything. I think there is one simple measure of a president--can he reach across the aisle. Obama threw that away right from the start, with arrogance and heavy-handed policy that set the stage for Trump's cheap-shit executive orders. He was under the thumb of the unions. Obamacare is ridiculous. If Hillary had been elected the provisions triggering in 2017-18 would have made it either imperative for her to kill it or would have made her a one-term president.

We haven't had an effective president since Reagan. Bill Clinton was certainly capable of greatness but was far too interested in stealing the silver to actually achieve it.

Yes, the union will survive Trump, but it would be nice to get someone who actually had an idea of how to steer the boat next time. I do find many of Trump's cabinet choice to be interesting and refreshing. But someone needs to shove Bannon under a bus.

Bottom line, I think he's going to do a moderately shitty job, and then he's going to lose his majority in two years, and then he's just going to spin for two more. Then AMF, and we'll get some dipshit democrat that wants to undo everything in the first hundred days.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUP Leave on March 01, 2017, 04:45:52 PM

This is purposefully vague so to give law enforcement unquestioned power to harass and punish anyone they feel like. You don't have to commit a criminal offence, only be charged with one. If Bubba the Texas deputy charges you with rape or jaywalking, you are now subject to deportation. Think it won't happen? Ask Muhammad Ali Jr.


Quote
Basically, forcing state and local police to verify immigration status when making an arrest.

SUP leave, do you carry a US passport or certified birth certificate with you at all times. Next time you're stopped for a broken taillight, would you be able to produce documents on the spot that proves you are in the US legally? Think it won't happen? Ask the passengers that were deplaning in NY from a domestic flight.

I'll agree with the purposefully vague verbiage. It is most definitely putting a lot of power in the hands of the police. There are bad cops out there, and there are also more cops who are ill-trained in these manners. We spent the last 8 years learning that police forces are systemically racist, so this is bad right? Trump's speech was extremely pro-police, which made the democrats really uncomfortable. I feel like Trump's focus is safety for the majority of Americans and he won, so that this the direction for a while.

It is hard to regulate or create legislature based on emotion or tragedy. While this law will certainly create tragedy for some families (especially if they have aliens who have been convicted of a crime in them), it is meant to prevent other tragedies caused by criminals. I feel like it comes from the right place, but may be a swipe too far (item g).

Question - say I get pulled over for my SUP flying off the top of my truck because I forgot to tie it down, and I can't produce my passport. Do I go to immigration jail, to be deported back to where I came from - Forks, WA? Or, do I get the opportunity to prove that I am in the country legally? I guess what I don't know, and what I should know is what is the process after an police official determines you may be here illegally? This is going to cause heartbreak for some families, but is the general idea going to keep Americans safer? Time will tell, it just started.

The domestic flight in New York had CBP guys checking IDs because they were looking for a specific person. No doubt, they could have let everyone off of the plane except people who fit the description of the perp, but that would have been termed racial profiling - even though it was garden variety police work. Would anyone here be greatly offended if they had to show their ID before getting off a plane? Especially if the cops were looking for someone in particular. It might be unsettling, but the end goal is safety - not being a pain in the ass. I would have probably bitched, but understood that the cops were just doing their jobs. For the next few years, I think we are going to get used to a little more scrutiny at airports and border crossings.



Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on March 01, 2017, 05:28:07 PM


Quote
Question - say I get pulled over for my SUP flying off the top of my truck because I forgot to tie it down, and I can't produce my passport. Do I go to immigration jail, to be deported back to where I came from - Forks, WA? Or, do I get the opportunity to prove that I am in the country legally?

That may depend on how brown you are.

The son of the late Muhammad Ali was detained for two hours in Fort Lauderdale a few weeks back as he was returning from an event in Jamaica honoring Black History Month. He’s a US Citizen with a valid passport who travels frequently and never had difficulty entering the country prior to January 20.

He was repeatedly asked about his Muslim faith, according to a report in the Courier-Journal. Since asking those types of questions would amount to a religious test — one of the few things explicitly barred in the U.S. Constitution— the authorities have denied asking those types of questions.

A prominent French historian was wrongfully detained by Customs and Border Patrol agents for 10 hours after arriving in Houston from Paris to Houston on his way to attend an academic symposium at Texas A&M. Henry Russo, whose family fled Egypt in 1956 to escape the persecution of Jews, was admitted only after the university mobilized its lawyers.

“A best-selling Australian children’s book writer said she was traumatized and ‘sobbed like a baby’’ after being wrongfully detained and aggressively questioned by US border control officials in Los Angeles,” reports the Boston Globe. Mem Fox was also on her way to speak at a symposium and held after she was incorrectly charged with holding an improper visa.

Passengers arriving on a Delta Airlines domestic flight from San Francisco to JFK Airport were told by flight attendants they would have to show “their documents” to CBP agents waiting as they deplaned. Federal officials later confirmed they were acting on a tip — which didn’t pan out — about an immigrant facing deportation aboard the plane.

And those are just the cases making the news over the past weekend.

Maybe the sky is falling.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on March 01, 2017, 05:47:21 PM
The Danish have one of the highest rates of personal taxation in the world. But this also means that they have reduced inequalities between people. Which may be one reason why they regularly come out one of the top countries of the world in terms of the happiness of the population.

http://www.livescience.com/51325-happiest-countries-2014.html

So, reduced taxation does not necessarily lead to happiness.

I guess it depends whether you want to be miserable and far richer (or poorer) than your neighbour, or happy and more similar in wealth :) :)
We should invade Denmark next, wouldn't hurt to have a steady stream of tall blondes entering the country.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on March 01, 2017, 11:15:09 PM
Well, the Dutch are even taller :)

Actually, growth in average height might be one way to measure the success of a country, since it is linked to nutrition and other health factors. In this respect the US is falling, relative to other countries. The UK doesn't fare too well either, which is something for us to consider, alongside growth in obesity rates. Socioeconomic inequality in our country has been growing over the last couple of decades, and it is probably dragging us down in terms of overall health statistics.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/science/countries-tallest-men-women-revealed-8493112
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on March 02, 2017, 10:24:21 PM
SUP leave, do you carry a US passport or certified birth certificate with you at all times. Next time you're stopped for a broken taillight, would you be able to produce documents on the spot that proves you are in the US legally? Think it won't happen? Ask the passengers that were deplaning in NY from a domestic flight.

Great point. I think most will not consider unintended consequences before it hits them in the face. The poor vetting of executive orders is unnerving to me.

I still wonder where Stone's boundaries are. How many people in the government can have secret meetings with Russia before it seems like a pattern worth investigating?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on March 03, 2017, 04:18:41 AM
Don't forget the pile of dead Russian diplomats.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on March 03, 2017, 07:39:34 AM
^ what's that saying again?

Where's there's smoke...
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on March 03, 2017, 07:44:00 AM
You won't drink the tapwater in the US but you will in India? ....that tells me all I need to know of your argument.
You spent a lot of time on the ground in India lately?
No but i design water treatment plants for a living and have for the last 30 years and know well the level of sophistication of US facilities vs indian....the comment is ludicrous....as is yours.

The question always is what you are treating for and what is being tested.

https://public.tableau.com/profile/alec.meltzer#!/vizhome/GettheLeadOutMap/Sheet2 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on March 03, 2017, 11:16:14 AM
No but i design water treatment plants for a living and have for the last 30 years and know well the level of sophistication of US facilities vs indian....the comment is ludicrous....as is yours.

Oh man you are going to be in so much trouble...once Trump dissolve the EPA ("the department of the environmental") there is no need to treat the water anymore...its not dangerous if you don't know the level of contaminants.

...but I have to admit that is a pretty cool sounding and important job. I have some friends that are working on a company to make fast reliable water analysis..as in real time stuff. Maybe you guys could use that. :-)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on March 03, 2017, 11:43:19 AM
No but i design water treatment plants for a living and have for the last 30 years and know well the level of sophistication of US facilities vs indian....the comment is ludicrous....as is yours.

Oh man you are going to be in so much trouble...once Trump dissolve the EPA ("the department of the environmental") there is no need to treat the water anymore...its not dangerous if you don't know the level of contaminants.
taut, you're using smaller fire power, I know you can do better than that.
The republicans are not only against clean water, but also clean air, clean food, all immigration, puppies and kittens, but they love pollution, the Russians, the North Koreans, and can't wait for the Earth to burn up from global warming.
You're slipping man, get with it.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on March 03, 2017, 12:14:25 PM
The republicans are not only against clean water, but also clean air, clean food, all immigration, puppies and kittens, but they love pollution, the Russians, the North Koreans, and can't wait for the Earth to burn up from global warming.
PUPPIES AND KITTENS?!?  :o  OK, I haven't been following politics too closely but now they've crossed a line!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: surf4food on March 03, 2017, 12:18:57 PM
The Danish have one of the highest rates of personal taxation in the world. But this also means that they have reduced inequalities between people. Which may be one reason why they regularly come out one of the top countries of the world in terms of the happiness of the population.

http://www.livescience.com/51325-happiest-countries-2014.html

So, reduced taxation does not necessarily lead to happiness.

I guess it depends whether you want to be miserable and far richer (or poorer) than your neighbour, or happy and more similar in wealth :) :)

I think comparing Denmark to how things can be here is a stretch.  I have a few friends who live there and yes they are quite happy, but most people who were born and grew up there have a whole different mentality from most Americans.  Plus Denmark is a much smaller country.  There is no one size fits all way to govern.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on March 03, 2017, 12:41:04 PM
"We want to promote a society in which it is easier to support yourself and your family before you hand over a large share of your income to fund the costs of society," Danish PM Rasmussen

This ideology could apply to any government, big or small.  I recognize that it could lead to a good or bad outcome.

But, I believe that this ideology generally works out best in the long run.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on March 03, 2017, 12:42:56 PM
Years ago I read that countries that do well on livability/health/education/etc. indexes share the trait of being homogenous societies, and it seems true when you think of which countries those are--especially the low-population Scandinavian ones.  The idea was that it's easier to run a country successfully when you don't have large cultural, religious or other differences among the population.  In contrast, it's a lot harder in a place like the U.S., with a large, diverse population.   Somewhere like Norway or Denmark in respect to size or diversity is more comparable to Minnesota than it is to the entire U.S., and Minnesota is certainly easier to run than the U.S.


But over the last several years, as those idyllic-in-comparison-to-here countries take on immigrants, it looks like things like racism weren't absent from them because people weren't racist, but because there just weren't many people of other races for racism to show itself.  As those countries become more diverse, they may become more comparable to the U.S., and may start having problems more similar to what the U.S. has been known for for decades.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on March 03, 2017, 12:48:06 PM
taut, you're using smaller fire power, I know you can do better than that.
The republicans are not only against clean water, but also clean air, clean food, all immigration, puppies and kittens, but they love pollution, the Russians, the North Koreans, and can't wait for the Earth to burn up from global warming.
You're slipping man, get with it.

Lets not pretend that Trump has not by himself and via his staff repeatedly said that they want to disband and close the EPA. Not sure why you do not recognize that. Or maybe you just don't take his word for it?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on March 03, 2017, 12:54:16 PM
The Danish have one of the highest rates of personal taxation in the world. But this also means that they have reduced inequalities between people. Which may be one reason why they regularly come out one of the top countries of the world in terms of the happiness of the population.

http://www.livescience.com/51325-happiest-countries-2014.html

So, reduced taxation does not necessarily lead to happiness.

I guess it depends whether you want to be miserable and far richer (or poorer) than your neighbour, or happy and more similar in wealth :) :)

I think comparing Denmark to how things can be here is a stretch.  I have a few friends who live there and yes they are quite happy, but most people who were born and grew up there have a whole different mentality from most Americans.  Plus Denmark is a much smaller country.  There is no one size fits all way to govern.

I think it is a mistake to completely disregard some solutions just because the context doesn't exactly line up with the current context. Obviously, it has to be taken into consideration. But the idea that things cannot scale or that you cannot even get inspired by a solution is odd because it prohibits learning. That argument can be used to disregard just about anything.

 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on March 03, 2017, 12:55:17 PM
Years ago I read that countries that do well on livability/health/education/etc. indexes share the trait of being homogenous societies, and it seems true when you think of which countries those are--especially the low-population Scandinavian ones.  The idea was that it's easier to run a country successfully when you don't have large cultural, religious or other differences among the population.  In contrast, it's a lot harder in a place like the U.S., with a large, diverse population.   Somewhere like Norway or Denmark in respect to size or diversity is more comparable to Minnesota than it is to the entire U.S., and Minnesota is certainly easier to run than the U.S.


But over the last several years, as those idyllic-in-comparison-to-here countries take on immigrants, it looks like things like racism weren't absent from them because people weren't racist, but because there just weren't many people of other races for racism to show itself.  As those countries become more diverse, they may become more comparable to the U.S., and may start having problems more similar to what the U.S. has been known for for decades.

I would agree PDX
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUP Leave on March 03, 2017, 01:02:53 PM
SUP leave, do you carry a US passport or certified birth certificate with you at all times. Next time you're stopped for a broken taillight, would you be able to produce documents on the spot that proves you are in the US legally? Think it won't happen? Ask the passengers that were deplaning in NY from a domestic flight.

Great point. I think most will not consider unintended consequences before it hits them in the face. The poor vetting of executive orders is unnerving to me.

I still wonder where Stone's boundaries are. How many people in the government can have secret meetings with Russia before it seems like a pattern worth investigating?

I agree with what you are both saying here. There will be annoyance, tragedy and heartbreak as a result of the EO.

My argument is that it is bad politics to govern from the point of empathy for an individual or small group (sounds terrible right?). The point being that while empathy towards a certain group or person makes a lot of sense, it may be unfair to the remainder of the governed.

Trump has no empathy for anyone except himself, and so we will see how it plays out.

I actually have personal tragedy semi-related to the EO. Long story short, a young man I am friends with/mentored is in ICE jail and going to be deported. He made a bad decision and because he was an alien there is no recourse it seems, even though very expensive lawyers have been involved. The thing is, he was destined for deportation 3 or 4 months before the election. The immigration laws haven't changed one iota since Obama was president.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on March 03, 2017, 01:42:54 PM
Years ago I read that countries that do well on livability/health/education/etc. indexes share the trait of being homogenous societies, and it seems true when you think of which countries those are--especially the low-population Scandinavian ones.  The idea was that it's easier to run a country successfully when you don't have large cultural, religious or other differences among the population.  In contrast, it's a lot harder in a place like the U.S., with a large, diverse population.   Somewhere like Norway or Denmark in respect to size or diversity is more comparable to Minnesota than it is to the entire U.S., and Minnesota is certainly easier to run than the U.S.


But over the last several years, as those idyllic-in-comparison-to-here countries take on immigrants, it looks like things like racism weren't absent from them because people weren't racist, but because there just weren't many people of other races for racism to show itself.  As those countries become more diverse, they may become more comparable to the U.S., and may start having problems more similar to what the U.S. has been known for for decades.

Ahhh… but you fail to understand that Scandinavian countries have always had each other to hate and be racist about. It’s practically a sport.

And then you have Switzerland where it’s way beyond sport. They really do hate each other. Hell, they don’t even speak the same language.

Yet Scandinavia and Switzerland rank high in happiest countries.  Maybe it’s because they always have had someone to wail on and have all their frustrations let out. I think that’s a better theory.

Or maybe massive consumption of beer could explain things.

Hey, how about Casper crossing from Denmark to Norway in mid winter? You seen this? Crazy vikings. You can brush up on your Danish while watching this...

http://www.redbull.com/dk/da/surfing/stories/1331847229001/viking-crossing-en-kamp-mod-moder-jord 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on March 03, 2017, 03:33:19 PM
Or maybe massive consumption of beer could explain things
if nothing else it might explain late night postings of old rock videos as a commercial break in a political thread.
Fosters. Now that's a beer.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on March 03, 2017, 04:00:29 PM
Danish workers have rights and they stand up and fight for them!

   http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/foodanddrinknews/7569596/Carlsberg-workers-on-strike-because-of-beer-ban.html
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on March 03, 2017, 05:10:03 PM
SUP leave, do you carry a US passport or certified birth certificate with you at all times. Next time you're stopped for a broken taillight, would you be able to produce documents on the spot that proves you are in the US legally? Think it won't happen? Ask the passengers that were deplaning in NY from a domestic flight.

Great point. I think most will not consider unintended consequences before it hits them in the face. The poor vetting of executive orders is unnerving to me.

I still wonder where Stone's boundaries are. How many people in the government can have secret meetings with Russia before it seems like a pattern worth investigating?

I agree with what you are both saying here. There will be annoyance, tragedy and heartbreak as a result of the EO.

My argument is that it is bad politics to govern from the point of empathy for an individual or small group (sounds terrible right?). The point being that while empathy towards a certain group or person makes a lot of sense, it may be unfair to the remainder of the governed.

Trump has no empathy for anyone except himself, and so we will see how it plays out.

I actually have personal tragedy semi-related to the EO. Long story short, a young man I am friends with/mentored is in ICE jail and going to be deported. He made a bad decision and because he was an alien there is no recourse it seems, even though very expensive lawyers have been involved. The thing is, he was destined for deportation 3 or 4 months before the election. The immigration laws haven't changed one iota since Obama was president.

Here's how the law is now being enforced.
http://abc7news.com/news/undocumented-dad-taken-by-ice-while-dropping-kids-off-at-school/1783553/

UNDOCUMENTED DAD TAKEN BY ICE WHILE DROPPING KIDS OFF AT SCHOOL

Friday, March 03, 2017 01:30PM
HIGHLAND PARK, LOS ANGELES -- While being dropped off at school with her sisters, 13-year-old Fatima Avelica recorded her undocumented father being picked up by agents with the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

Romulo Avelica-Gonzalez had been in the country for 20 years with four children, two of whom are grown.
The ICE officials, who wore police jackets, took the 48-year-old father into custody as he dropped his girls off at school in Highland Park on Tuesday.
"It's really hard what we're going through," Avelica-Gonzalez's daughter Brenda Avelica said. "I never thought we'd actually go through something like this. It's terrible to feel and see your family being broken apart."
Executive director of the Highland Park charter school Academia Avance, Ricardo Mireles, brought together about two dozen people to support the family.
"I think the impacts are going to come in terms of, 'Hey, how do we pay the rent? And how do we move forward?'" Mireles said. "We want to be able to find resources to help this family go through this process."
Mireles said the girls' father had a nearly decade-old DUI conviction and an incident 20 years ago where the father said he bought a car with an incorrect registration sticker, unbeknownst to him. Both were reasons given for the deportation.

An attorney for the family was attempting to file paperwork for a U-visa, which would allow Avelica-Gonzalez to remain in the country.

ICE released this statement about the incident:

Officers with one of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement's (ICE) Los Angeles-based Fugitive Operations teams took Mr. Avelica into custody Tuesday morning. Mr. Avelica was targeted for arrest because relevant databases indicate he has multiple prior criminal convictions, including a DUI in 2009, as well an outstanding order of removal dating back to 2014. After conducting surveillance to confirm his identity, the officers arrested Mr. Avelica during a vehicle stop in the 3200 block of Pasadena Avenue, approximately a half mile from the charter school described in the related social media post. No one else was detained during the vehicle stop. Mr. Avelica remains in ICE custody at this time.


Also, concerning 'empathy for the individual'  The bill of rights have one thing in common, all 10 are concerning rights of the individual, not the well being or rights of remainder.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on March 03, 2017, 06:23:51 PM
You can also look at it in a pragmatic way, separate from empathy.  If you take cases like Tom's example, what are the consequences?  Could be deportation in this case, which I'd assume was the goal of picking him up.  But along with it may come more likelihood of others here illegally going off the radar.  Do you show up for required check-ins?  Keep your kids in school?  Call the police if you witness a crime?  Stay at the scene of an accident?  What happens to family members left here without their breadwinner, or kids left without their dad?  Do they become a new cost to society?

It seems you have to balance the intended consequences with the unintended.  Surely the chance to deport a murderer or rapist outweighs the unintended, negative consequences.  Picking up someone whose only illegality was having parents who brought them here illegally when they were seven doesn't outweigh them.  Other cases are somewhere in between.

It's like adding tariffs or taxes.  You have to factor in changes in behavior that will reduce tax revenue, countermeasures by other countries that may offset any good the tariffs do, etc.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: supthecreek on March 04, 2017, 05:47:49 AM
RE Toms tear jerker "story"
Ok…. cuz you are so horrified by this bit of raw meat, bullshit story... I am compelled to jump in.

As always, the oh so empathetic left, focus ONLY on the plight of the poor family of the “undocumented DAD”

This story has been written with only ONE goal…. to drum up more hate for President Trump and conservatives.

Leave out enough information and cleverly word it to make the casual reader horrified and angry.
THAT is the stories ONLY purpose… and you fall for it. Every time.

Occasionally, try reading these stories with some honest intellectual curiosity.

So…
at the bottom of the story is the cause for arrest:

"Mr. Avelica was targeted for arrest because relevant databases indicate he has multiple prior criminal convictions, including a DUI in 2009, as well an outstanding order of removal dating back to 2014."


Hard to google what the prior (unnamed) criminal convictions were, but they are conveniently left out.
Ok… so, we got OUI… not so bad right?

Why break up the poor hardworking  family over that minor OUI offense, right?
Bullshit!

My curiosity turned up some lengthy research done by an angry American DAD, of a KID killed by an Illegal Immigrant  while OUI:

“As many as 7,500 Americans -- 20 per day -- are killed annually by unlicensed drivers, and Rosenberg calculates that more than half, are the victims of illegal immigrants. Now, by testifying before lawmakers, speaking to parents who have been through the same ordeal and posting his research on his nonprofit’s website, unlicensedtodrive.org, Rosenberg is shedding light on a frightening number not readily available from government sources.”


That’s over 3000 people killed in the US each year, by illegal immigrants….. many of them OUI…. most of them unlicensed and uninsured.

The government has purposefully and willfully, refused to track the criminal offenses by illegal immigrants.
Apparently, immigration status is only pertinent, when trying to drum up sympathy.

Our archives are filled with stories of drunk-driving illegals killing U.S. citizens,” William Gheen, of the Americans for Legal Immigration Political Action Committee, told FoxNews.com. “It is our official estimate that more than 3,000 U.S citizens lose their lives each year due to the insufficient enforcement of our existing border and immigration law.”




BOTTOM LINE:
I don’t break any laws, because I have kids.

If I broke the law…. I would expect to get arrested. No one, no newspaper story, no political party.. would come to MY defense.
My kids don’t want me arrested… it would suck.

SO…. ever since my kids were born…. I have NEVER had more than ONE drink in a day….EVER ….. because I didn’t want to get arrested. (and I owned a bar for 30 years)

IT”S FRICKING SIMPLE… if you don’t want to be arrested…. don’t break the law.

Being a DAD is NOT a free pass for ME…. why should it be for an illegal immigrant?

Your blind, manipulated empathy toward stories like this, is disturbing.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on March 04, 2017, 06:45:33 AM
Guilt and shame in the media? Really?
You think there are any stories just as sad over the last 5 years that were not covered?
Nah......

Oh my.........the decisions we are faced with now.

" Consumer behavior experts say under a Trump presidency these reactions make sense."
http://time.com/money/4687575/why-ivanka-trump-clothing-is-presenting-a-major-closet-conflict-for-women/?xid=homepage

we mustn't forget the therapists whose schedules are more full than ever. Just overwhelmed.
I wonder if anyone has brought up to their therapist that they have just discovered they had Ivanka stuff?

as pdx alludes to or says.......the thing about laws or rules......they need to be wrote in black and white but when you put those together it's gray.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on March 04, 2017, 07:04:05 AM
STC - 10% of all US road fatalities caused by illegal immigrants? If records aren't kept, as you claim, then how is this figure known?

And anyway, if 90% of road fatalities do NOT involve "illegal immigrants" then you'll probably find that twice as many are killed by soccer moms. Is deporting soccer moms going to help the situation?

It sounds to me like these numbers are just being plucked from the air, and you are probably being every bit as manipulated as those you criticise. It's the easiest vote in the world to win right now: angry old white guys.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: freetobeme on March 04, 2017, 07:23:52 AM
Lead Birther

And

Now

Paranoid Golfer, err I mean World Leader. 

How does anyone take this dude seriously? I don't get it.


http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/03/04/518478158/president-trump-accuses-obama-of-wire-tapping-provides-no-evidence
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: freetobeme on March 04, 2017, 07:49:35 AM
Assuming those stats are spot on.

3,000 deaths for a population of 319,000,000. Im sure America will carry on. Besides I need my avocado for my morning toast. 

Id be willing to bet a mortgage payment that texting and not obeying stop signs and speed limits by white American males cause far more fatalities. Add alcohol and my stats would skyrocket. 


Personally, I much prefer the folly of the human condition to the blatant and abrupt divisive policies of our oligarchy.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: surf4food on March 04, 2017, 07:54:38 AM
And anyway, if 90% of road fatalities do NOT involve "illegal immigrants" then you'll probably find that twice as many are killed by soccer moms. Is deporting soccer moms going to help the situation?

What if we convert them to SUP moms?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on March 04, 2017, 08:04:59 AM
On the one hand, I find Creek's concern about 3000 deaths (potentially invented) to be startlingly inconsistent, but still, this story is horseshit. An illegal alien with a DUI and a removal order? Why wasn't he gone long ago?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: surf4food on March 04, 2017, 08:12:14 AM
It sounds to me like these numbers are just being plucked from the air, and you are probably being every bit as manipulated as those you criticise. It's the easiest vote in the world to win right now: angry old white guys.
Even though my own politics lean left for the most part, STC does bring up a valid point that there are always two sides to every story.  I also question where those statistics came from and also think it's a stretch that he's never broken the law since having kids or had more than on drink in a day EVER since having kids (not even at home?), but Mr. Avelica did sort of bring this on himself.  I would think that someone who's is here illegally would be walking on eggshells just to keep a low profile. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: surf4food on March 04, 2017, 08:18:45 AM
On the one hand, I find Creek's concern about 3000 deaths (potentially invented) to be startlingly inconsistent, but still, this story is horseshit. An illegal alien with a DUI and a removal order? Why wasn't he gone long ago?

That's what I was thinking.  If he was actually convicted of a DUI, not to mention if he was here illegally and therefore would not be able to even get a license, how was he not departed back then? 
So much does not add up.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: supthecreek on March 04, 2017, 08:30:50 AM
STC - 10% of all US road fatalities caused by illegal immigrants? If records aren't kept, as you claim, then how is this figure known?

And anyway, if 90% of road fatalities do NOT involve "illegal immigrants" then you'll probably find that twice as many are killed by soccer moms. Is deporting soccer moms going to help the situation?

It sounds to me like these numbers are just being plucked from the air, and you are probably being every bit as manipulated as those you criticise. It's the easiest vote in the world to win right now: angry old white guys.

Stick your angry white label up your area.... 10.

Quote from AAA report
https://www.aaafoundation.org/sites/default/files/2011Unlicensed2Kill.pdf

"Nearly half of all fatal crash involved drivers who lacked a valid license"

NOT soccer moms A-10.... and hummmm, why are they unlicensed?

The politically correct weenies will not allow studies to include immigration status. I wonder why?

BUT... as I stated above... the Dad of a victim got pissed and slogged through reports designed to "smoke screen" the problem.
His findings were considered valid enough to be presented to legislators.
http://unlicensedtokill.org/the-story/



Yeah... I can't quote solid "proof"... because the statistics are forbidden by the PC crowd.... but read enough studies and a pattern becomes reasonably provable.

http://www.fairus.org/issue/unlicensed-to-kill
https://www.aaafoundation.org/unlicensed-kill
https://www.aaafoundation.org/sites/default/files/2011Unlicensed2Kill.pdf
http://www.naic.org/cipr_topics/topic_uninsured_motorists.htm

here's a site you can poo poo to your PC hearts content
a very sad memorial to victims of illegal immigrants... stories of the dead and their killers
http://www.ojjpac.org/memorial.asp

But yeah.... I'm probably making it up. Soccer Mom's are the real danger. I bow to your superior insight Area 10.... open the doors and let em' in.
Exactly why I don't like to partake in this bullshitshow
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on March 04, 2017, 09:20:17 AM
Ah, And there we see it: Angry old white man in all his glory.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on March 04, 2017, 09:21:01 AM
Thank you creek.  ;)

Unfortunately, I expect the press to continue to cherry pick for the next 4 years at least, they are obviously apoplectic over their loss to an outsider, that was not supposed to happen.

Anybody see the New York Time's ad on the TV proclaiming their integrity?  Anybody ever remember any big newspaper having to run an add like that?  Obviously feeling the heat, as they should.

I'm just waiting to the next big story to hit the press, everyone is whispering about it, so it should be coming out fairly soon.
Ivanka Trump is having an illicit affair with Kim Jong-un behind her husband's back!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: maxsonic on March 04, 2017, 10:22:45 AM
Ah, And there we see it: Angry old white man in all his glory.

What is wrong with being an angry old white man?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on March 04, 2017, 10:23:09 AM
Yeah, the Times is everywhere with that proclamation, which simply means they know people understand they have a serious integrity problem and are trying to bullshit their way through it.  Advertising your way past an integrity problem--the irony is overwhelming. Next the Washington Post will do journalistic integrity infomercials.  I need some PDX assistance here.

Anyone who says they don't lie, does.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on March 04, 2017, 10:24:03 AM
Ah, And there we see it: Angry old white man in all his glory.

Ah, and there we see it--high quality deflection.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on March 04, 2017, 10:36:33 AM
I'm having a tough time reading the Russian Contact stories. Trumpet headlines and then five columns of nothing. WTF???

The latest one that really tossed me was lying to Al Franken. That's amazing. Every time I use the term Lying Liars I'm plagiarizing from Al. I read the entire article and felt like I was reading some circular e e cummings poem. How are these folks maintaining their outrage when they don't seem to have anything of substance to report? It's getting hard to separate the wheat from the chaff, and there's plenty of both. I think they're all secretly working for Trump, and they're just going to wear us down until no one cares.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on March 04, 2017, 11:03:47 AM
Ah, And there we see it: Angry old white man in all his glory.

Ah, and there we see it--high quality deflection.
Not at all. I just couldn't be bothered to argue. But since you asked, here it is:

STC accused Tom of being motivated by a "sob story", and then promptly motivated his own rant with a sob story of his own.

He followed this up by accusing "politically correct weenies" of being manipulated by the media, but in support of his position quoted statistics which by his own admission are just a guess, and have been compiled by people who are extremely likely to be presenting a biased view.

Then, the arguments are presented with added aggression and insults, aimed at bullying critics into silence.

In the U.K. we have a phrase for this kind of person: a Daily Mail Reader. The Daily Mail is a National Newspaper that prints endless stories aimed at outraging the socially conservative xenophobic older person whose principal motivation in life is hate and fear. The paper gets them all riled up and passing on their stories all over social media in a Chinese whispers way. Often these stories turn out to be blatantly untrue, or based on half-truths, but the damage is already done, and they resonate through the years, often reappearing in different forms. "Political correctness gone mad" is a key phrase used by the Daily Mail Reader.

Lately, the Daily Mail has been doing very well. Trump is a godsend to them. So
Is Nigel Farage in our own country. They all just love to whip up the Angry Old White Man into a frenzy of paranoia and hate, and take money off them on the pretext that they will remove some perceived threat that probably doesn't even exist - or if it does, is much less of a threat than others which might require more critical self-reflection to address.

We are all being manipulated. But only some of us let it get to us so badly that we use agressive language towards people who we might otherwise call friends, or e.g. claim that we are better fathers than another person who we don't even know, and about which we may only know half the story.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: mrbig on March 04, 2017, 12:08:39 PM
It's the economy..

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/04/crash-1929-wall-street-what-the-great-depression-reveals-about-our-future

Comments are priceless.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on March 04, 2017, 12:18:14 PM
Ah, And there we see it: Angry old white man in all his glory.

Ah, and there we see it--high quality deflection.
Not at all. I just couldn't be bothered to argue. But since you asked, here it is:

STC accused Tom of being motivated by a "sob story", and then promptly motivated his own rant with a sob story of his own.

He followed this up by accusing "politically correct weenies" of being manipulated by the media, but in support of his position quoted statistics which by his own admission are just a guess, and have been compiled by people who are extremely likely to be presenting a biased view.

Then, the arguments are presented with added aggression and insults, aimed at bullying critics into silence.

In the U.K. we have a phrase for this kind of person: a Daily Mail Reader. The Daily Mail is a National Newspaper that prints endless stories aimed at outraging the socially conservative xenophobic older person whose principal motivation in life is hate and fear. The paper gets them all riled up and passing on their stories all over social media in a Chinese whispers way. Often these stories turn out to be blatantly untrue, or based on half-truths, but the damage is already done, and they resonate through the years, often reappearing in different forms. "Political correctness gone mad" is a key phrase used by the Daily Mail Reader.

Lately, the Daily Mail has been doing very well. Trump is a godsend to them. So
Is Nigel Farage in our own country. They all just love to whip up the Angry Old White Man into a frenzy of paranoia and hate, and take money off them on the pretext that they will remove some perceived threat that probably doesn't even exist - or if it does, is much less of a threat than others which might require more critical self-reflection to address.

We are all being manipulated. But only some of us let it get to us so badly that we use agressive language towards people who we might otherwise call friends, or e.g. claim that we are better fathers than another person who we don't even know, and about which we may only know half the story.

Ah. Well, okay then.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on March 04, 2017, 12:27:32 PM
It's the economy..

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/04/crash-1929-wall-street-what-the-great-depression-reveals-about-our-future

Comments are priceless.

Reasonably intelligent comments. I guess writing a somewhat complex historical/opinion article weeds out most of the morons.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on March 04, 2017, 12:38:09 PM
RE Toms tear jerker "story"
Ok…. cuz you are so horrified by this bit of raw meat, bullshit story... I am compelled to jump in.

As always, the oh so empathetic left, focus ONLY on the plight of the poor family of the “undocumented DAD”...

...Your blind, manipulated empathy toward stories like this, is disturbing.
I'm not sure who your "you" and "your" are referring to.  The only comment after Tom posted it was from me, and it was the opposite of empathetic. 


I agree some of "the left" may be blindly empathetic, easily manipulated, easily horrified, etc. but I don't see that describing anyone here.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUPsports on March 04, 2017, 01:07:56 PM
Alrighty then...since we are playing cowboys and indians...here's an attempt to lighten things up...;-)
I'll raise your Clint Eastwood with Iron Eyes Cody...;-)

L@@K...fook all of the partisan polarizing and politically biased diatribes about this and that...that & this...& everything in-between...all of these multi-faceted rationalizations, that every one seems to be using to fortify their pillars of cognition and schemas...in an attempt to appease the drunk monkey inside their skull trying to reach an understanding of whatever it is that is firing in front of their eyeballs from the dirty projector of dirty media manipulations...etc...etc...but, can't we all watersport humans, agree that it's a bad thing to sh*t or piss in your own drinking water and fook up the air that we breathe?!?!

This is a whole earth, human global participant, forest beyond the trees type of question...

Regardless, I believe that there should be a special place in hell for people that intentionally help to destroy the environment that we recreate in...especially, for those that are motivated by profit and exploitation(s)...much harder to solve that problem than those who pollute simply due to ignorance...

Now back to your regularly scheduled, regularly biased, media outlet programs of fooking fake news...;-)

Who remembers Iron Eyes Cody?

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2016/02/iron-eyes-cody-native-american-actor-wasnt/

As long as the tear is real, does it really matter if he was a Sicilian Cherokee?...;-)

If a tree falls in the forest, did anyone hear the one hand clapping?...
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: supthecreek on March 04, 2017, 01:40:57 PM
funny (not really)... a story is posted.
It promotes a classic liberal "victim"
The poor innocent Daddy, being dragged away from his terrified children, by Trump's jack-booted thugs. (yawn)

I stated that, if illegal immigrant parents don't want to be arrested, they need to live within the law, like everyone else.
There is no "get out of jail free" card for criminal parents.

In my way to illustrate EVERY parents responsibility, I pointed out some very deliberate decisions that I made after my children were born.
Since I don't live a criminal life, I chose to share decisions about drinking and driving, since a few extra beers can have a drastic negative effects on family life.
Apparently that was unwelcome.
Some of you have chosen to defame my statements. Fine, I can't control that... just my own actions.

The facts I linked to, are more facts than were included in the story. Certainly not definitive, never were claimed as such.... just a window into an alternative look at a very one sided story.
But feel free to unleash the attack machine of "deflect and accuse". Do not, under any circumstance, consider the alternative view.


PDX
The "you" and "your" are simply referring to liberals in general, many of whom believe this type of one eyed reporting.... no one in particular, apologies  if that wasn't clear.

Well, it's been fun prodding the beast.

Carry on.... I gotta go get shit-faced, drive drunk and complain about it when I get busted.
I am sure the networks will carry my plight of the drunk, angry white man, live at 11. Riots of support are sure to follow.  ;D

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: surf4food on March 04, 2017, 01:57:09 PM
As an old white guy, I really do get a kick out of watching other old white guys getting angry at being called old angry white guys. I take with a grain of salt being called libtard, libturd, liberal trash, commie traitor, snowflake, cupcake, etc. Lol.  I remember a young Marine vet coming up to my face and telling me to have a stroke when he overheard my wife and I talking about voting for Clinton and decided to walk over to our table lol.  Likewise I laugh at seeing my fellow liberals get butthurt at these kinds of names or getting angry when they get mocked for saying terms like "check your white make privilege at the door" or "first world problems".  I as a lefty am the first to admit we are just as guilty as conservatives for being overzealous and oversimplifying things as being black and white.  Both sides are full of crap in some way or another and both sides know this (but will never admit it).  And believe it or not, liberals who think like me are not that unusual.   Just like I don't think all or most conservatives are white racist nut jobs. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on March 04, 2017, 02:24:09 PM
As an old white guy, I really do get a kick out of watching other old white guys getting angry at being called old angry white guys. I take with a grain of salt being called libtard, libturd, liberal trash, commie traitor, snowflake, cupcake, etc. Lol.  I remember a young Marine vet coming up to my face and telling me to have a stroke when he overheard my wife and I talking about voting for Clinton and decided to walk over to our table lol.  Likewise I laugh at seeing my fellow liberals get butthurt at these kinds of names or getting angry when they get mocked for saying terms like "check your white make privilege at the door" or "first world problems".  I as a lefty am the first to admit we are just as guilty as conservatives for being overzealous and oversimplifying things as being black and white.  Both sides are full of crap in some way or another and both sides know this (but will never admit it).  And believe it or not, liberals who think like me are not that unusual.   Just like I don't think all or most conservatives are white racist nut jobs.


Yeah, but have you ever been called out for having empathy for a fellow human being?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: johnysmoke on March 04, 2017, 02:45:47 PM
I think they're all secretly working for Trump, and they're just going to wear us down until no one cares.
Yes I've been thinking this as well. If there's one thing Trump excels at  (other than finding time to work on his golf game) is playing the media like a fiddle. Especially given all the shit on Facebook right now, could be a  Russian or government brain worm circulating, making everyone extra stupid and opinionated. Like being locked in your own custom echo chamber with the volume cranked up to 11. Meanwhile the centrifuges are spinning past critical rpms.
That might make an old timey forum such as this, a wormhole of real communication, in an otherwise strange world.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on March 04, 2017, 04:11:21 PM
Hey, even the real indians like Iron Eyes. He might have been born italian-american, but he lived Indian (native american).  I met a few people in the ad world that knew him--they said he fiercely denied being anything but native American, even when confronted with evidence. Sounds a little like Trump.  FWIW his second wife was Wendy Foote. We'll have to ask Billy about that.

I'm strongly in favor of environmental protections and mostly opposed to the EPA. As with many things federally managed, it's about as random as having your house (or more relevantly, your business) hit by lightning, and about as dangerous.

No, I don't have a solution to making it work better. But what we have doesn't work well. Flint is a good example. So is any contact you have with these folks, no matter how incidental or innocent. Suppose you buy a few acres of land and in one corner you find a 55 gallon drum that has rusted away. You test the soil beneath it and find a trace of dioxin. Now what? I leave this to your own research, but you could start here: https://semspub.epa.gov/work/11/174546.pdf  Good luck. You might get a phone call just for reading it.

I have a lot more experience with FEMA. There's an agency that could be eliminated without anyone being the wiser.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUPsports on March 04, 2017, 04:36:29 PM
Hey, even the real indians like Iron Eyes. He might have been born italian-american, but he lived Indian (native american).  I met a few people in the ad world that knew him--they said he fiercely denied being anything but native American, even when confronted with evidence. Sounds a little like Trump.  FWIW his second wife was Wendy Foote. We'll have to ask Billy about that.

...snippity...

Hey, zackly...I believe it was a real tear until someone proves otherwise...
I've done a fair share of pow wows...sweat lodges...etc...and, me thinks I'm in a tribe of pale faces that try to more or less embrace the warrior way...still refer to my wind sport brethren as "windians"...

FWIW...so, Sandy was after Wendy?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: maxsonic on March 04, 2017, 04:46:37 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exbMIGWWpgg
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on March 04, 2017, 04:50:09 PM
supthecreek: "Carry on.... I gotta go get shit-faced, drive drunk and complain about it when I get busted.
I am sure the networks will carry my plight of the drunk, angry white man, live at 11. Riots of support are sure to follow."

Actually because you are a legal citizen, you won't even make the news, but they will throw the book at you.
Chances are if you would be an illegal alien, you'd stand a better chance at getting off, which in itself had got to have all the legals in jail really pissed off.  A possible case in point.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Judge Helps Criminal Illegal Alien Escape ICE Officers
3/3/17

A judge in Oregon is under investigation for allegedly helping an undocumented immigrant escape Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officers who had come to apprehend him.
Multnomah County Judge Monica Heeranz was notified by court staff that ICE officers were waiting outside her courtroom for Diddier Pacheco Salazar, a Mexican national appearing in connection with a DUI charge on Jan. 27. He had come to plead guilty to the charge in exchange for a suspended sentence contingent upon his entry into a diversion program, according to local media reports.
What exactly ensued is not yet determined, but officials in the local U.S. attorney’s office fear Heeranz guided Salazar out of the courtroom through an employees’ exit and then out of the building.
“I felt that it was inappropriate and delegitimizes the work of ICE agents who are out there doing their jobs,” U.S. attorney Billy Williams told local press. “When you’re talking about the judicial system – whether it’s federal or by state – you have an expectation that people are going to abide by the law and not take steps based on their own motivations, their own politics — whatever the motivation was.”
Salazar’s court-appointed lawyer, John Schlosser, said he did not assist in his client’s alleged escape, and was surprised to learn he made a clean get away.
“I prepped my client,” he said. “I said, ‘I don’t know if they’re going to pick you up outside or what, but here’s how to prepare.’ After the court appearance, I went out in the hallway and sat. My client never came out. I can’t say that I’m surprised he didn’t come out, but I gave him his options, and assume he had to have been escorted out some other way.”
Chief Judge Nan Waller is now leading an internal investigation of the incident.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/03/03/judge-helps-criminal-illegal-alien-escape-ice-officers/#ixzz4aPM4Sn9M
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: surf4food on March 04, 2017, 06:04:40 PM
As an old white guy, I really do get a kick out of watching other old white guys getting angry at being called old angry white guys. I take with a grain of salt being called libtard, libturd, liberal trash, commie traitor, snowflake, cupcake, etc. Lol.  I remember a young Marine vet coming up to my face and telling me to have a stroke when he overheard my wife and I talking about voting for Clinton and decided to walk over to our table lol.  Likewise I laugh at seeing my fellow liberals get butthurt at these kinds of names or getting angry when they get mocked for saying terms like "check your white make privilege at the door" or "first world problems".  I as a lefty am the first to admit we are just as guilty as conservatives for being overzealous and oversimplifying things as being black and white.  Both sides are full of crap in some way or another and both sides know this (but will never admit it).  And believe it or not, liberals who think like me are not that unusual.   Just like I don't think all or most conservatives are white racist nut jobs.


Yeah, but have you ever been called out for having empathy for a fellow human being?

Oh yeah. 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on March 04, 2017, 06:13:43 PM
Ok, so let's see if I've got this right. Apparently, according to what I'm reading here, US law enforcement agencies go out of their way to let undocumented aliens off crimes, and instead pick on old angry white guys instead? Is that what you are trying to convince us of?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: surf4food on March 04, 2017, 06:17:19 PM
supthecreek: "Carry on.... I gotta go get shit-faced, drive drunk and complain about it when I get busted.
I am sure the networks will carry my plight of the drunk, angry white man, live at 11. Riots of support are sure to follow."

Actually because you are a legal citizen, you won't even make the news, but they will throw the book at you.
Chances are if you would be an illegal alien, you'd stand a better chance at getting off, which in itself had got to have all the legals in jail really pissed off.  A possible case in point.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Judge Helps Criminal Illegal Alien Escape ICE Officers
3/3/17

A judge in Oregon is under investigation for allegedly helping an undocumented immigrant escape Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officers who had come to apprehend him.
Multnomah County Judge Monica Heeranz was notified by court staff that ICE officers were waiting outside her courtroom for Diddier Pacheco Salazar, a Mexican national appearing in connection with a DUI charge on Jan. 27. He had come to plead guilty to the charge in exchange for a suspended sentence contingent upon his entry into a diversion program, according to local media reports.
What exactly ensued is not yet determined, but officials in the local U.S. attorney’s office fear Heeranz guided Salazar out of the courtroom through an employees’ exit and then out of the building.
“I felt that it was inappropriate and delegitimizes the work of ICE agents who are out there doing their jobs,” U.S. attorney Billy Williams told local press. “When you’re talking about the judicial system – whether it’s federal or by state – you have an expectation that people are going to abide by the law and not take steps based on their own motivations, their own politics — whatever the motivation was.”
Salazar’s court-appointed lawyer, John Schlosser, said he did not assist in his client’s alleged escape, and was surprised to learn he made a clean get away.
“I prepped my client,” he said. “I said, ‘I don’t know if they’re going to pick you up outside or what, but here’s how to prepare.’ After the court appearance, I went out in the hallway and sat. My client never came out. I can’t say that I’m surprised he didn’t come out, but I gave him his options, and assume he had to have been escorted out some other way.”
Chief Judge Nan Waller is now leading an internal investigation of the incident.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/03/03/judge-helps-criminal-illegal-alien-escape-ice-officers/#ixzz4aPM4Sn9M

This is the very site that A10 explained makes a point to do articles that are either completely false, or half truths or maybe even true but regardless have the end goal of creating outrage for it's own sake.   
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: surf4food on March 04, 2017, 06:20:09 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFevxqmg92s
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: maxsonic on March 04, 2017, 06:32:33 PM


This is the very site that A10 explained makes a point to do articles that are either completely false, or half truths or maybe even true but regardless have the end goal of creating outrage for it's own sake.
[/quote]

PLEASE...let's not confuse "Area 10" with the greatest Close Air Support aircraft ever made...in the USA, of course.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvIJvPj_pjE
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on March 04, 2017, 06:34:30 PM
I think stoney is the smart one here.
Title: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: addapost on March 05, 2017, 05:00:06 AM
Assuming those stats are spot on.

3,000 deaths for a population of 319,000,000. Im sure America will carry on. Besides I need my avocado for my morning toast. 

Id be willing to bet a mortgage payment that texting and not obeying stop signs and speed limits by white American males cause far more fatalities. Add alcohol and my stats would skyrocket. 


Personally, I much prefer the folly of the human condition to the blatant and abrupt divisive policies of our oligarchy.

Exactly! If someone is getting themselves all hot and frothy over a couple "illegals" but they are fine with the government, they have no clue what is going on. I'm happy to take my chances with the "illegals". It's this government I want out.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: stoneaxe on March 05, 2017, 06:24:37 AM
Hey guys.....notice that it's all testosterone fueled here.....can you do me a favor....and I mean this from the bottom of my heart. Please lets stop this. We are nothing but a reflection of the worst of what we can be as people and what our society has become. We are all brothers at the base. These political threads have done damage to a place I love and and caused  hard feelings between people I've come to respect with views from both sides. Regardless of your views I think you can agree that this is getting us nowhere and only bringing disrespect and derision. Every time I come in here I feel like I just stepped into a room full of monkeys flinging their shit at each other.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: addapost on March 05, 2017, 08:25:32 AM
This one is really bad Bob. Really hard to forgive the support for this nightmare.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on March 05, 2017, 09:40:27 AM
This one is really bad Bob. Really hard to forgive the support for this nightmare.
Well that didn't last long.
How about this, a great lesson for at least some of us here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19i5ehy-f54
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: addapost on March 05, 2017, 10:33:05 AM
That was funny! Thanks for that. Here's another similar...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7wHMg5Yjg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: freetobeme on March 05, 2017, 11:05:45 AM
Too much therapy happening here to quit now Bob. 

But ya, name calling is def not necessary or productive. 

Someday after a dramatic shift in how the republic of America controlls the masses the ideal of Centrism will be common place. Till then we gots a shit show.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on March 05, 2017, 11:32:03 AM
It was a lot easier to be centrist when "Commie" was a bad word. Under Eisenhower and Kennedy the Dems were center to slightly right and the republicans were conservative but more "progressive", in this case, progressive meaning less racist, more likely to favor equality for women, and generally true to conservative principles--opposed to religious influence on politics and interested in a minimal government. The two parties were bunched into the middle by a recognizable foe--the march of communist influence in the world and the existential threat of nuclear war.

Now the left wing of the democrats are a caricature of liberalism with the middle strongly corporate/union-influenced and the right wing of the republicans are some strange mix of religious nutballs, nationalism, and self-interest.

I think 60 percent of the population don't fit in either party and are wandering around wondering who represents them.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on March 05, 2017, 11:40:51 AM

Stick your angry white label up your area.... 10.

Quote from AAA report
https://www.aaafoundation.org/sites/default/files/2011Unlicensed2Kill.pdf

"Nearly half of all fatal crash involved drivers who lacked a valid license"

NOT soccer moms A-10.... and hummmm, why are they unlicensed?

The politically correct weenies will not allow studies to include immigration status. I wonder why?


Yeah... I can't quote solid "proof"... because the statistics are forbidden by the PC crowd.... but read enough studies and a pattern becomes reasonably provable.

http://www.fairus.org/issue/unlicensed-to-kill
https://www.aaafoundation.org/unlicensed-kill
https://www.aaafoundation.org/sites/default/files/2011Unlicensed2Kill.pdf
http://www.naic.org/cipr_topics/topic_uninsured_motorists.htm

But yeah.... I'm probably making it up. Soccer Mom's are the real danger. I bow to your superior insight Area 10.... open the doors and let em' in.
Exactly why I don't like to partake in this bullshitshow


Yeah you are making it up. I mean I am not saying you intentionally mislead, but the articles you cite actually write something else.
12% are unlicenced...and a total of 18% are unlicensed or wrongly licenced. You quote cut off before the end of the sentence...it is supposed to read:"Nearly half of all fatal crash involved drivers who lacked a valid license were influenced by alcohol". But the articles you cited were pretty upfront about the numbers.

So yeah you kind of are making it up. Also, there is nothing PC about research, if the data is there you can study it, but I am willing to bet that your assumption on immigrant involvement in accidents is not statistically significant.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on March 05, 2017, 11:43:35 AM
I think 60 percent of the population don't fit in either party and are wandering around wondering who represents them.
There are certain advantages with a two party system, but it doesn't work when the parties are completely divided, and power itself is more important that their duty to citizens. I think having a different electoral system with more parties could be good.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUPsports on March 05, 2017, 11:56:03 AM
I think 60 percent of the population don't fit in either party and are wandering around wondering who represents them.

The fictional candidate “Did Not Vote” won by a landslide in this presidential election cycle...

(http://brilliantmaps.com/wp-content/uploads/did-not-vote-2016-update.png)

As a percentage of eligible voters, Clinton received 28.43% (65,845,063) of all votes compared to Trump’s 27.20% (62,980,160) and Did Not Vote’s 44.37% (102,731,399).
Neither Candidate even won a majority of votes cast, Clinton got 48.0% vs Trump’s 45.9%.

As a percentage of the entire US population (including those too young or other ineligible to vote) Clinton got votes from 20.30% of the population and Trump got votes from 19.41% of people.


http://brilliantmaps.com/did-not-vote/
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on March 05, 2017, 12:58:13 PM
Wardog, that's quite a find--thanks.  Makes me wonder what it is about those few states that didn't go to the DNVs.  They're not obviously similar in any way I can see.  Similarly, what do the DNV states have in common with themselves, that keeps their turnout low? 


Maybe there are multiple reasons states ended up in one group or another, so for instance, Colorado voters turn out for entirely different reasons than Maine voters?  Maybe there's not a lot to do in Wisconsin or Iowa than vote?  Maybe only one state in the western half of the U.S. didn't go into the DNV category because people were hearing returns and thought the election was already decided?


Shame on Oregon.  We have mail-in ballots.  You can vote from home.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on March 05, 2017, 01:13:08 PM
What I find interesting is that the DNVs can't find the energy to fill out a mail-in ballot, or go to the polls and vote, but they can find the energy to make signs, put on their masks, go outside and protest.
Is it because one pays and the other one doesn't (voting), or, is it because one isn't a party (voting), and the other one is?
Me thinks a combination of both.  Totally stupid either way.

It's getting windy, so I have better things to do.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on March 05, 2017, 01:52:31 PM
I'm totally with you Weasel.

Re the wind that is.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: addapost on March 05, 2017, 02:35:29 PM
I served on my town's School Committee for three years and it was mind-boggling to me that people wouldn't even go vote on election day to support the schools their kids went to. Stayed home in gigantic numbers- well over 50%.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: freetobeme on March 05, 2017, 03:17:36 PM

Just listened to this Sam Harris podcast with David Frum, a Republican journalist who seems to have a reasonable take on all that is Trump. I don't necessarily agree with his politics but he makes good sense of the situation.

Interview on Sam Harris podcast:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/waking-up-with-sam-harris/id733163012?mt=2&i=381454624

Frum's recent article from The Atlantic which I have not read yet:

https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/513872/


Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on March 05, 2017, 03:19:46 PM
I served on my town's School Committee for three years and it was mind-boggling to me that people wouldn't even go vote on election day to support the schools their kids went to. Stayed home in gigantic numbers- well over 50%.
Yes, the total number of potential voters is vast, so the half that stays home is half-vast.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: supthecreek on March 05, 2017, 03:30:30 PM

Stick your angry white label up your area.... 10.

Quote from AAA report
https://www.aaafoundation.org/sites/default/files/2011Unlicensed2Kill.pdf

"Nearly half of all fatal crash involved drivers who lacked a valid license"

NOT soccer moms A-10.... and hummmm, why are they unlicensed?

The politically correct weenies will not allow studies to include immigration status. I wonder why?


Yeah... I can't quote solid "proof"... because the statistics are forbidden by the PC crowd.... but read enough studies and a pattern becomes reasonably provable.

http://www.fairus.org/issue/unlicensed-to-kill
https://www.aaafoundation.org/unlicensed-kill
https://www.aaafoundation.org/sites/default/files/2011Unlicensed2Kill.pdf
http://www.naic.org/cipr_topics/topic_uninsured_motorists.htm

But yeah.... I'm probably making it up. Soccer Mom's are the real danger. I bow to your superior insight Area 10.... open the doors and let em' in.
Exactly why I don't like to partake in this bullshitshow


Yeah you are making it up. I mean I am not saying you intentionally mislead, but the articles you cite actually write something else.
12% are unlicenced...and a total of 18% are unlicensed or wrongly licenced. You quote cut off before the end of the sentence...it is supposed to read:"Nearly half of all fatal crash involved drivers who lacked a valid license were influenced by alcohol". But the articles you cited were pretty upfront about the numbers.

So yeah you kind of are making it up. Also, there is nothing PC about research, if the data is there you can study it, but I am willing to bet that your assumption on immigrant involvement in accidents is not statistically significant.


Boy you guys are good!
Yup I made it all up. You are right.

"UNDOCUMENTED DAD TAKEN BY ICE WHILE DROPPING KIDS OFF AT SCHOOL"
that story is 100% correct
He was innocent... and a Dad... another hapless victim of Trumps out of control deportation policies.
He never got an OUI
He never disobeyed a previous Obama deportation order
He never had multiple prior criminal convictions... he was a Dad.
 
You are so right... and....I lied about how I conduct my life. I am drunk all the time.
I lied about the research.... drunk driving deaths caused by illegals are not important. I have no right to discus them.

Carry on.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on March 05, 2017, 03:52:00 PM
Bellow all you like Creek, but why did you twist the quote to make a point that is completely false?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on March 05, 2017, 03:56:38 PM
What I find interesting is that the DNVs can't find the energy to fill out a mail-in ballot, or go to the polls and vote, but they can find the energy to make signs, put on their masks, go outside and protest.

I'm pretty sure they are the 60 percent who didn't have anyone to vote for. Of the people who voted (like me), how many held their nose and voted for someone they despise?

I think it's time for a real third party--a centrist party. Not Libertarians--I like some of their viewpoints, but in general they're loonies. I think a party in the middle would kick the D and R asses.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: supthecreek on March 05, 2017, 11:18:27 PM
Bellow all you like Creek, but why did you twist the quote to make a point that is completely false?

well Bill... it's because I mis-read one of several very long reports. Simple. I made a mistake when I grabbed the wrong quote.

I was responding to A10's statement that: soccer Moms probably kill twice as many people as illegal immigrants.
Here is the part I "twisted"....  to make the "completely false" point.

"The proportion of fatal-crash involved drivers of any given age who were unlicensed decreased
as age increased across the entire age spectrum, whereas young adults ages 21–34 were the most
likely to have had a suspended or revoked license. Nearly half of all fatal crash involved drivers
who lacked a valid license (unlicensed or license suspended/revoked/expired/cancelled/ denied)
were ages 21–34 (48.8%). Fifty percent of all unlicensed and invalidly licensed drivers in fatal
crashes had alcohol in their system,
43.0% had a blood alcohol concentration (BAC)
"
Apparently this proves that my point is completely false...this clearly isn't an illegal immigrant problem.... it is all those unlicensed soccer Moms.

Here is another copy/paste from the same article (By Triple AAA)
"in years 2007–2009  Overall, 18.2% of fatal crashes involved a driver who was unlicensed or invalidly licensed; these crashes resulted in the
deaths of 21,049 people. T
"[/i]
only 21,000 deaths by unlicensed  or invalidly licensed drivers in 3 years... yep, those pesky soccer Mom's.

Apologies.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on March 05, 2017, 11:27:34 PM
Bellow all you like Creek, but why did you twist the quote to make a point that is completely false?

Now that the White House is setting the example by doing this so much is this a rising trend? Is it now considered normal?
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: supthecreek on March 06, 2017, 04:36:57 AM
Yes, We are all liars and don't deserve a voice at all.

What is it you are trying to do here?
Am I not allowed to speak?

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on March 06, 2017, 07:15:41 AM
I don't remember anyone trying to shut you down.  If you mean disagreeing with what you say, or reading the reports you cite, that's the other side of speaking up--for better or worse. And I don't disagree with what you say, I don't find thousands of preventable deaths to be trivial in any way. The same kind of sob story could be written about a family losing their Mom to a drunk illegal alien.

We need real immigration reform. It's a political football because it works very well as a political football. Both parties want to use immigrants--legal and illegal--to their benefit. I think it's incredibly naive to think about the issue any other way. You can sympathize with individual stories all you like, but until the underlying issues get solved, those human lives are the plaything of politics and politicians. And the media feeds the monster.

Trump isn't doing anything to fix the problem, he's just enforcing laws we already have. I think that's pretty stupid, he has a majority, he could do something useful. Of course the screaming would increase dramatically since the opposition doesn't want the problem solved--they want to return to power.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on March 06, 2017, 11:00:43 AM
SUP,
It certainly wasn't my intention to say you can't have a say, but that quote was the basis of a long hypothesis you had about how many illegal immigrants were involved in fatal accidents and the numbers in the first sentence in the first report you cited showed that you had misquoted.   

I doubt there will be much resistance against deporting illegal immigrants that break the law...the point I am making is that there needs to be due process and there needs to be proper vetting of laws...you can't just say shit because you heard it somewhere and then put it into executive orders. The current government makes up realities and that is incredibly dangerous. 

Now I still wonder at what point do think Trump goes too far? Having a lot of people with deep ties to Russia?  When he makes unsubstantiated claims that the previous president ordered illegal surveillance? Is that too far? 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on March 06, 2017, 11:16:33 AM


Now I still wonder at what point do think Trump goes too far? Having a lot of people with deep ties to Russia?  When he makes unsubstantiated claims that the previous president ordered illegal surveillance? Is that too far?
To quote a line that the liberals love to throw out there, whether there is evidence or not, "the serious of the charge, demands that we investigate".
It works both ways.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on March 06, 2017, 11:43:07 AM

To quote a line that the liberals love to throw out there, whether there is evidence or not, "the serious of the charge, demands that we investigate".
It works both ways.

Wait what? You can't even begin to compare it.

Several members of the Trump government and provably lied about meeting with Russia. One of his advisors has been in business with Russia for ages, and another claimed to have backdoor connections to Wikileaks.

On the other hand you have a paranoid President that just claimed something.


Surely any legitimate claims warrant further investigation, but delusions and paranoia does not.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUP Leave on March 06, 2017, 12:34:18 PM
 

Now I still wonder at what point do think Trump goes too far? Having a lot of people with deep ties to Russia?  When he makes unsubstantiated claims that the previous president ordered illegal surveillance? Is that too far?

Trump goes too far almost every day. Why he insists on tweeting out these trivialities for his base are beyond me. I think he is going to, or has possibly crossed the point that reluctant Trump voters are jumping off the train. He needs to get some part of his plan moving, not just EO's -actual work. I coach girls basketball and I always say "do your job". Little kids (girls especially) get tied down into worrying over what someone else said, or didn't do, even a foul look can upset them. I wish I could get a timeout with Donald and tell him "Dude you won, now DO YOUR JOB." The R's are in pole position for the first time in a while and are on the path of squandering it. Trumps noise is a big reason why.

The ties to Russia, and Obama's wiretap - to me are just trivialities and time wasters. Both will unfortunately have to be investigated, and more likely than not we will find out that yeah, there was some of this or that, but no actionable activity came from it.  I ask myself when I read this stuff - what is the upside? I can't convince myself that there is an elaborate scheme between Russia and Trump's cabinet, the same I can't convince myself that there is anything behind the wiretaps other than standard political nosiness. I don't think any of the players involved are actually smart enough to pull these things off. Maybe I am naive.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on March 06, 2017, 01:52:03 PM
Nixon resigned over trying to cover-up wiretaps supposedly aimed at his opponent.

The New York Times have basically admitted that Obama has done the same thing, even before Trump was sworn in:
 
Intercepted Russian Communications Part of Inquiry Into Trump Associates
By MICHAEL S. SCHMIDT, MATTHEW ROSENBERG, ADAM GOLDMAN and MATT APUZZOJAN. 19, 2017

WASHINGTON — American law enforcement and intelligence agencies are examining intercepted communications and financial transactions as part of a broad investigation into possible links between Russian officials and associates of President-elect Donald J. Trump, including his former campaign chairman Paul Manafort, current and former senior American officials said.
The continuing counterintelligence investigation means that Mr. Trump will take the oath of office on Friday with his associates under investigation and after the intelligence agencies concluded that the Russian government had worked to help elect him. As president, Mr. Trump will oversee those agencies and have the authority to redirect or stop at least some of these efforts.
It is not clear whether the intercepted communications had anything to do with Mr. Trump’s campaign, or Mr. Trump himself. It is also unclear whether the inquiry has anything to do with an investigation into the hacking of the Democratic National Committee’s computers and other attempts to disrupt the elections in November.

For the rest, even though the article isn't as relevant as the admission of wiretapping.   
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/19/us/politics/trump-russia-associates-investigation.html?_r=1

And if you need more, here's a list of Obama's wiretaps during his administration, he's obviously quite handy at wiretapping.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/03/draft-heres-the-complete-list-of-victims-from-obamas-many-wiretaps/

Nice try Obama, this might be like the super bowl all over again, and we're still at the beginning of the first half.
Go patriots!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: freetobeme on March 06, 2017, 03:03:05 PM
Trump was never an opponent of Obama in the sense of Nixon. Furthermore, no evidence of burgling, cover up or perjury has been presented. In this day and age with the executive powers given regarding intercepting citizens information I would be surprised if there is even smoke never mind fire regarding Obama conducting illegal activities. Im not suggesting he's above reproach but id put his smarts up against anyone in the ring of politics.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on March 06, 2017, 03:17:50 PM
Nixon resigned over trying to cover-up wiretaps supposedly aimed at his opponent.

The New York Times have basically admitted that Obama has done the same thing, even before Trump was sworn in:
 
Intercepted Russian Communications Part of Inquiry Into Trump Associates
By MICHAEL S. SCHMIDT, MATTHEW ROSENBERG, ADAM GOLDMAN and MATT APUZZOJAN. 19, 2017

WASHINGTON — American law enforcement and intelligence agencies are examining intercepted communications and financial transactions as part of a broad investigation into possible links between Russian officials and associates of President-elect Donald J. Trump, including his former campaign chairman Paul Manafort, current and former senior American officials said.
The continuing counterintelligence investigation means that Mr. Trump will take the oath of office on Friday with his associates under investigation and after the intelligence agencies concluded that the Russian government had worked to help elect him. As president, Mr. Trump will oversee those agencies and have the authority to redirect or stop at least some of these efforts.
It is not clear whether the intercepted communications had anything to do with Mr. Trump’s campaign, or Mr. Trump himself. It is also unclear whether the inquiry has anything to do with an investigation into the hacking of the Democratic National Committee’s computers and other attempts to disrupt the elections in November.

For the rest, even though the article isn't as relevant as the admission of wiretapping.   
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/19/us/politics/trump-russia-associates-investigation.html?_r=1

And if you need more, here's a list of Obama's wiretaps during his administration, he's obviously quite handy at wiretapping.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/03/draft-heres-the-complete-list-of-victims-from-obamas-many-wiretaps/

Nice try Obama, this might be like the super bowl all over again, and we're still at the beginning of the first half.
Go patriots!

Are you kidding? I mean seriously do you not know how the system works?
There is a HUGE difference between wiretaps occurring during an administration and an administration ordering a wiretap. Obama simply cannot "order" wiretaps. To top it off you cite a blog on the reputable website thegatewaypundit.com???

Any secret wiretaps have to be pushed through the system by one of the intelligence agencies.
There is a FISA court and if they actually approved wiretaps, then there is already significant indication that something really really bad is going on....so at the end of the day, if the current administration is pushing this issue, they might just be painting themselves into a corner....or maybe this is just wishful thinking.

 

 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on March 06, 2017, 03:28:03 PM
the  US was tapping  Russians , like they   always  do, and discovered  the Trump  link. bigly difference 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on March 06, 2017, 03:34:00 PM
This is getting fun now, of course Obama didn't have to "order wiretaps", his minions knew what to do if they were told by Obama off record or not.
Do you really think that everything in the government is strictly run by the book?  Ha!  I've been around far too long to know that isn't the case.

The bottom line is that both of the claims (Russians colluding with the GOP during the elections, and the Obama administration tapping Trump) are both sitting on the same foundation of reality, however weak or strong that may be.
Further investigation, which I am for, will hopefully provide some sunlight on both affairs, it will be very hard to investigate one w/o discovering the other, they are intertwined if they exist at all.
I'm just saying that it is best to be prepared for the results of the findings, or they (the dems) will call the entire thing off, then we will really know.

Art of the Deal.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on March 06, 2017, 04:53:26 PM
This is getting fun now, of course Obama didn't have to "order wiretaps", his minions knew what to do if they were told by Obama off record or not.
Do you really think that everything in the government is strictly run by the book?  Ha!  I've been around far too long to know that isn't the case.

The bottom line is that both of the claims (Russians colluding with the GOP during the elections, and the Obama administration tapping Trump) are both sitting on the same foundation of reality, however weak or strong that may be.
Further investigation, which I am for, will hopefully provide some sunlight on both affairs, it will be very hard to investigate one w/o discovering the other, they are intertwined if they exist at all.
I'm just saying that it is best to be prepared for the results of the findings, or they (the dems) will call the entire thing off, then we will really know.

Art of the Deal.

No it is not sitting on the same foundation of reality. Not even close. Where one party has had repeated incidences of people in his cabinet getting their hand caught while in the cookie jar...and even lying about it under oath the other had several agencies coming out denying it, and there are no indications what so ever outside of some paranoid blog / random radio host rant that it is the case.

Now that said, if they did actually wiretap through FISA I would actually suggest them just publicizing what they have and both problems would find a resolution...one that Trump surely would claim was "fake news". It would cause harm to the US intelligence system but surely that would be a small prize to pay now that there is a leader in charge who trusts unqualified random radio rants over actual intelligence.



Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on March 06, 2017, 06:00:59 PM
What's funny taut, is that I'm willing to question everything, and you aren't willing to question anything, in regards to this.
You must have some direct connection to the truth that only a liberal can claim.
It must be nice to be that way.  Have fun with your surety, and peace out.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on March 06, 2017, 06:51:08 PM


I think this really the core of the discussion. I'm also perfectly fine with questions but we have to be careful with false equivalencies. Just saying something then that somehow should have same weight as something where there is actual information and proof combined with at least high probability of perjury will take us down a dangerous path. One of the things that have made humanity successful is our ability to learn and build on systematic knowledge...false equivilencies takes us in the wrong direction.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on March 06, 2017, 08:04:03 PM
Good one Taut, pass me a mushroom would ya...
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on March 06, 2017, 09:06:18 PM
False equivalence is the core of democracy as practiced in the USA. Because "false" is in the eye of the beholder. Bathroom rights for transsexuals. How does the preferred identity of a miniscule percentage of the population trump the concerns of literally everyone else? I could care less where they choose to go, but there are a vast number of people would be discomfited--even threatened. But it's an issue--apparently almost as important as immigration and chatting with the KGB.

The current problem is that everything is open to interpretation because there are few trustworthy sources. I heard a reasonably cogent analysis of the Russian connection issues on, of all things, the Daily Show.  As with most political bumbling, the issue isn't contact, it's coverup. And coverup is he said, she said. Anyone who has spent time with government knows that there are numerous occasions where truth is forbidden, or even more commonly, it's unclear as to what the actual permitted response is. It's easy to catch a government official in a lie--anytime they don't know what their bosses official line is, they dissemble or deny.

I can't for the life of me understand why the Trump people didn't simply say "Yes, we had contact with the Russians. They are important players on the world stage and we need to start a dialog with them. Next question." Assuming they did of course.

Humorous to see Sessions recusing himself as being an indication of guilt. If he hadn't recused himself it would have been represented as manipulation by an involved party. "so tell me Mr. Sessions, yes or no, are you still beating your wife"
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: SUP Leave on March 07, 2017, 09:10:38 AM
Trumpcare came out yesterday. It is predictably mealy-mouthed, weak kneed garbage (Paul Ryan's name is obviously all over it). Basically cements in place many portions government socialist healthcare created by Obama, and does just enough so that the D's can attack it with impunity every time there is a sob story somewhere.

It did not even add the option to buy insurance across state lines.

There are some good parts- HSAccounts allowable funding has gone from $3500 to $7k. Obviously, it removed the mandate to buy from people and corporations.

It still requires insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions. This essentially forces government intervention in healthcare - I mean if a house insurance company had to sell you insurance after your house caught on fire it wouldn't be in business very long right? So the government will have to subsidize - either through individuals or directly to the insurance companies for covering existing conditions. That is all written in there, in very confusing ways, but it is in there.

Good job R's you have kept Obamacare but now can take the blame for it's shortcomings and the blown budget that comes with it.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on March 07, 2017, 10:28:36 AM
I'm from a country where no-one has to have health insurance. If you get ill, you just go to your doctor or a hospital and they treat you, and there's no paperwork or (almost no) money paid. So I know nothing about the US healthcare system. But on the zone all I hear about the ACA is that it is bad. I've watched simple guides like this one to try to understand it:

https://youtu.be/JZkk6ueZt-U

But I still don't see why it seems like everyone here is so against it. Is it just because most of you guys fall into the affluent groups who now have to pay a bit more than you used to? I'd be grateful if someone could please explain why you think Obacare has been such a disaster, and what you hoped that Trump would change in order to put it right.

Sorry for such an ignorant question from a foreigner. US healthcare policy is pretty complex to us guys who aren't used to dealing with such a system.

Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on March 07, 2017, 11:16:56 AM
Obamacare essentially extended health insurance to everyone without controlling the cost of care. So health insurance premiums have skyrocketed while insurers have either gone broke and abandoned specific markets, or made tons of money by making it very hard for everyone insured to get care. The average cost of insurance for a middle class family is $18-20,000 per year 

The underlying problems of rapidly increasing healthcare costs did not originate with Obamacare, rates were rocketing up before it's enactment. The problem is that it didn't fix the underlying issues, and it's made it much more difficult for people to get good medical care and treatment. My wife is a genius at organization and management--truly spectacular at it. When I called her yesterday to go have lunch she was crying, having spent three frustrating hours on the phone trying to get insurance-covered supplies for her insulin pump. If a wizard at managing complex issues and manipulating people in business can't get care that she has paid for (her insurance premium is eye-watering, I'm on medicare, and that's not cheap though its hard to get doctors to accept it) then what do average people do? What do elderly or mentally challenged folks do?

The supplies she was working so hard to get are plastic things less complex than a yoyo. I said "let's just buy them to get you through the month until you sort this out." Turns out a month's supply (about 12 yoyos) is about $4,000. Discounted. Perhaps you can see why the lobbies have so much money to toss around.

So yes, it needs repair. The obvious thing is to expand medicare, but that will never happen because the insurance companies and the med/pharma lobby will never allow it. Lyndon Johnson presided over the creation of Medicare, you'd think the democrats would have loved expanding it to cover everyone, but no. The cost control mechanisms of Medicare are anathema to the lobbies.  It slid by in 1965 because it insured people over 65, who the insurance companies wanted nothing to do with.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on March 07, 2017, 11:35:14 AM
A 10, to understand the plusses and minuses of ACA, you first need to understand what is tried to replace. The US health care/health insurance system is unbelievably complex. Even a brilliant guy like Trump thinks so. I was having a discussion with  a British and an Australian friend about healthcare. They ask a simple question, If I broke  my arm and went to a doctor, what would it cost me? They could answer that question in one sentence. It is almost impossible for me to answer that, it all depends on many factors, and even then, you just don't know.  This is before or after ACA.

 
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: yugi on March 07, 2017, 11:44:42 AM
Wow. That sucks.

The corporations are raping you. My mommy would have refused to buy me a yoyo if they were 300 bucks.

On the other hand the overly socialist stuff isn't as pretty as it seems.

There is  a healthy middle ground. Trump don't look like it.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on March 07, 2017, 11:58:52 AM
Here is an interesting bar graph showing the increase in health insurance from 2002-2015 for a family of 4 (for a mediocre policy).

The fundamental question you have to ask is, did the actual cost of health-care increase 2.7 times in the same period?  Doctors, nurses, techs supporting staff? No, not even close.  Rents then, buildings, medical equipment? Nope, none of the above.  No, it comes down to utilization, and we ain't seen nothin' yet.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Tom on March 07, 2017, 11:59:52 AM
Bill, have you tried Canada or Mexico for purchasing the pumps? (yes, that is what our health care have become)
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on March 07, 2017, 12:10:58 PM
Heavens. And I thought we had it bad. Thanks for the explanations guys. I had no idea that coverage was quite that expensive, or that it was so difficult to work out what you are covered for, or could get.

It makes it even harder for foreigners like me to understand why US citizens rate terrorism as one of their major worries, when it sounds like your healthcare system is probably contributing to thousands of times more avoidable deaths and disabilities than ISIS could even dream of.

Mind you, I wanted to see my doctor recently for a painful surfing-related ear problem and it was two weeks before I could get an appointment. And when I broke my neck he wouldn't send me for a scan. So our system is hardly perfect either.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: pdxmike on March 07, 2017, 12:27:20 PM
It's not the ACA that was so bad, it's Obamacare.  plus the arrogance of him to name it after himself.  Reagan named ecomonics after himself, but otherwise when Truman invented social security he didn't name it after himself, etc.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on March 07, 2017, 12:33:48 PM
It's not the ACA that was so bad, it's Obamacare.  plus the arrogance of him to name it after himself.  Reagan named ecomonics after himself, but otherwise when Truman invented social security he didn't name it after himself, etc.

haha good one....oh man wait...I don't know if you're sarcastic or not. I'm gonna go with sarcastic...and laugh with you.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Bean on March 07, 2017, 12:56:31 PM
Yes, Truman should have called it the Roosevelt Act...

Gore didn't get the appropriate accolades for inventing the internet either.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on March 07, 2017, 01:05:17 PM
Bean: "Yes, Truman should have called it the Roosevelt Act...

Gore didn't get the appropriate accolades for inventing the internet either."

Or Gorebal warming.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: tautologies on March 07, 2017, 01:14:42 PM
Bean: "Yes, Truman should have called it the Roosevelt Act...

Gore didn't get the appropriate accolades for inventing the internet either."

Or Gorebal warming.

Now you just sounds bitter. LOL.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: maxsonic on March 07, 2017, 04:56:57 PM
Damn.  I'm usually pretty good at killing threads on the Zone. But I couldn't kill this one, not even with an A-10 Warthog video. BRRRRRRRRRRTTTTTT!!!!!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on March 07, 2017, 05:15:07 PM
I did enjoy the warthog video. I built an RC warthog once with two ducted fan motors. Serious fun to fly. Then I turned it into a slope glider and it was even better. Stuffed it into one of the cliffs near Kipahulu. Didn't salvage a thing. BAM.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: lucabrasi on March 07, 2017, 05:59:29 PM
Damn.  I'm usually pretty good at killing threads on the Zone. But I couldn't kill this one, not even with an A-10 Warthog video. BRRRRRRRRRRTTTTTT!!!!!
Hell, we got warthogs, that stupid ass honey badger, creature from black lagoon messing shit up, A10 and Pono agreeing (i have too...at times.......shhhhhhhh), Creek explaining he's drunk all the time, pdx quips, stoney saying no mas, stuff referred to from just about any media outlet you can think of and just all sorts and in the end really pretty civil and real tho it has had it's moments. Lots of good stuff here all over.
I ran across this today. I gotta post it somewhere........it's going here. Damn if it don't look like something he should have done.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOGkmoijhYI

back to your regularly scheduled show.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Weasels wake on March 07, 2017, 06:30:10 PM
Bean: "Yes, Truman should have called it the Roosevelt Act...

Gore didn't get the appropriate accolades for inventing the internet either."

Or Gorebal warming.

Now you just sounds bitter. LOL.
Not at all!  I'm having a great time, and I'm also generous, so this is for you, it's easy!  ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_RsNjYkOao
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: maxsonic on March 07, 2017, 07:00:32 PM
Lots of good stuff here all over.
I ran across this today. I gotta post it somewhere........it's going here. Damn if it don't look like something he should have done.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOGkmoijhYI

back to your regularly scheduled show.
Now we've got the thread headed in the proper direction! Xlnt post!!!
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: surfshaver on March 07, 2017, 07:58:25 PM
I'm with Pono on this.  It's not about the health insurance system.  It's about the fact that we spend 20 cents of every dollar of our GDP on healthcare.  More than twice as much as most large developed countries.  Regardless of what we do with the insurance system, if the cost side can't be changed we will still have major problems.

I liken our economy to a physical organism.  For any living being, certain body parts and organs aren't crucial while others are.  You can live without an arm or a leg or even a lung or a kidney, but once your circulatory system or your immune system goes, it's over.

Think of capital/money as blood.  Wall St and the banking system are the heart and circulatory system.

Think of people/labor as muscle and bone.  The healthcare industry is the immune system of our economic organism -- preventing people from breaking down.

Now think of government as the brain (don't laugh). 

What if the privileged organs/systems, the ones the body cannot do without, essentially come to realize their privileged status?  They could influence the "brain" to send certain signals and capture the brain's ability to control them.  They could grow larger and larger, becoming hypertrophic, sucking energy and resources from the rest of the body.

Other muscles and bone would weaken as the system would send more and more nutrients to those enlarged organs.

Eventually this would weaken the body as a whole -- it wouldn't be able to move or function well.

This is the state of our economy today.  Wall Street and Healthcare have captured our government, serving to inflate their share of the lifeblood of our economy at the expense of everything and everybody else.

Until these organs are somehow cut down to size/brought back under control, the body will continue to suffer.

In economic terms, this means prolonged sub-standard growth.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on March 07, 2017, 11:49:41 PM
Ok so the stats definitely support what you guys are saying here: it's pretty clear that the US is spending much more on healthcare per capita than any other country in the world. It looks like you are spending roughly twice as much as an average European country, or Canada or Australia. That is indeed a truly enormous amount, and the US looks like an outlier amongst the countries of the world.

So, the general feeling here is that it is because the tail is wagging the dog? In other words that your healthcare providers are doing what private companies exist to do: screw as much money out of you as they can whilst minimising their outlay? And you believe that pharma and healthcare providers/insurers are able to use powerful lobbying abilities to minimise government control over them, right?

Presumably there are other factors also at work here? For instance I'm always amazed at how much medical intervention you guys talk about as routine. Take a broken rib: in the UK you won't generally be given a scan (unless maybe you are a child) if you have broken ribs because the results won't alter the treatment. But as I understand it, you would expect to get a scan, right? So someone has to pay for that expectation to be filled, i.e. you. It also sounds like you guys have many more routine check-ups than we do, judging by the discussion on the zone about skin conditions, especially cancer prevention. So, who decides for you guys what constitutes a reasonable level of healthcare, and what procedures and interventions are allowed or recommended? (In England we have a quango (NICE) that advises on what is safe, effective, and economically justified. You can get medical treatment beyond what they recommend, but you would have to pay for it.)

Or maybe you guys don't receive anything different than you would if you were Canadian, but just pay twice as much for everything? Again, if that is the case, why is it?

So, finally, what is the solution? It sounds like you all mostly agree that the system is not providing you with a fair, transparent, and economical solution. But at the same time you are generally distrustful of government intervention. Now, obviously, for something to change, something is going to have to change - and change really quite radically. So what would that change look like?

Again, sorry for the naive questions.



Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: PonoBill on March 08, 2017, 12:43:31 AM
There are a huge number of answers to that question and all the implied questions. Healthcare is more of a business in the USA than it is in most places. I think it's demonstrably true that the most advanced medicine is practiced here, a disproportionate amount of new equipment, methods, drugs and treatments are developed here. But that doesn't translate into longer lives or better health. It translates into higher cost and strange utilization driven as much by the need to amortize equipment cost as patient needs.

Part of that is expectations. People sprain an ankle and want an MRI. Part of it is utilization. A lot of it is what surfshaver said.

The USA also spends $596 billion per year on "defense" which is about 3% of GDP. More than the next eight countries combined. As a percent of GDP, it's not quite so out of whack, but it's a lot of bucks.

Understand also that the USA has a GDP of 18 Trillion for 320 million people, making comparisons to other countries challenging.  Canada has a population of 36 million people and a GDP pf 1.5 Trillion. Different set of issues.
Title: Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
Post by: Area 10 on March 08, 2017, 01:29:27 AM
Thanks very much. But where else in business would you argue that there would be no economies of scale? Surely the far larger US market should allow better bang-for-buck than your neighbours?

I'm still not hearing any solutions. I'm not sure what it is that Trump voters expect him to actually do. Obama had a go at change and everyone seems to hate him for it. Where is Trump's incentive to enter the brawl? Could it just be that crazy expensive healthcare is one price you pay for your cultural expectations? You almost certainly don't need to be spending anything like as much on defence as you do (no-one is ever going to seriously challenge you as the world&#