Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Downwind and Racing => Topic started by: dns on December 28, 2016, 10:04:38 AM
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I just picked up a 2015 Fanatic Falcon, it came with a 10" ABS dolphin fin and the board is WAY too tight. It's very hard to turn and has a tendency to broach on bumps. I'm new to DWing but am fairly experienced SUSing. I searched all I could but most of the DW fin recommendations I could find are for weedy conditions and swept back fins. Which, being in Hawaii, I don't need. One of the local shop guys recommended a more vertical fin, but didn't have any specifics. Maybe the FCS HI DW or Lahui Kai fin? I'm loath to drop ~$100 on a fin that I hate. :'(
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I am using a Futures California fin which I think is a pretty good allrounder. Loosened up my board and has decent stability. They do a more upright Hawaii version too. They are pricey though. There are probably faster fins but I'm just out there for fun.
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There were one or two threads on downwind fins here that were active a few months ago and had a lot of good suggestions. Based on those, I picked up a True Ames Squirrel fin from Zone sponsor JimK for around $50. I haven't had a chance to try it in downwind conditions yet, but Area 10 spoke very highly of it as a DW fin.
If you want to try a really inexpensive one to start, the FCS dolphin is available for about $20 in the less performance oriented GF construction:
http://www.surffcs.com/shop/surf-longboard/fcs-dolphin---gf
BadgerOfNH has surfed a M-12'6 with this fin, and I don't think he found the cheaper construction to noticeably hinder performance.
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For a Falcon, the VMG Mako are very good fins. Larry Allison might also have a new downwind fin prototype that could be good.
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For a Falcon, the VMG Mako are very good fins. Larry Allison might also have a new downwind fin prototype that could be good.
Holy Crap! $236 for a fin? :o That's half of what I paid for my board.
Thanks for the ideas.
@BS what size Squirrel did you get? I currently have the dolphin and that's the one that's too tight, so I won't be going down that road again.
@CS A friend uses the CDW and likes it too, but I'm wondering if the HiDW will be better for my needs.
I'm also thinking the Lahui Kai fin might be a good, inexpensive, experiment.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/g60AAOSwXeJYGTPC/s-l1600.jpg)
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SIC used to offer some spitfire-style fins, which are very loose. Not expensive, good for downwind, but I don't see them on their site anymore. the offer two weedless fins that are not excessively raked. I like the squirrel style too and Larry's version works very well. Either of them will loosen up the board but still have enough turning authority to quell broaching.
In a different category is Jeremy Rigg's Aerocore fins. they take a bit of getting used to, but they turn like a spitfire and paddle like a big low aspect fin. Most serious DW fanatics like them a lot, but they aren't cheap and they're a little hard to get hold of.
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One of the local shop guys recommended a more vertical fin, but didn't have any specifics. Maybe the FCS HI DW or Lahui Kai fin? I'm loath to drop ~$100 on a fin that I hate. :'(
Holy Crap! $236 for a fin? :o That's half of what I paid for my board.
Just in case... that price is in Australian dollars. US price is around $165 (still not cheap). Not sure where you're located, so I thought I'd point that out. ;)
To be honest, when I first stumbled onto the VMG fins, I thought that was the US price and was immediately shocked.
I have a few friends that are using the Black Project Maliko V2 fin for DW and are really liking it. I believe it's up there in same price range as the VMG fin, but maybe it's worth a look. I thought I'd throw it out there since I hadn't seen it mentioned yet.
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Oh, thanks. :-[ Their site didn't have the normal .au at the end so I assumed USD. I looked at that one too, but thought the rake might be sacrificing something. I'm on Oahu, so I have no need for a steeply raked "weedless" fin if the rake compromises something over a more vertical fin which seems to be the case from what little info I can find. Very little though. :(
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Well, everyone knows that I like a squirrel fun (or the FCS Fat Boy, which is similar) for downwinding. And I've tried more fins (by far) than anyone else I know. So I don't need to say any more about that. 10" for 14fters and/or big conditions, and 9" for 12-6 and/or milder conditions or if you have exceptional balance.
The Black Project Maliko is OK IMO, but not much more.
The SIC Weedless fins are cheaper, lighter, and better IMO.
The Futures California DW is, as coldsup says, a pretty good all-rounder.
That Lahui Kai fin will probably be quite a respectable option, if it's not too big. There was a Naish fin fairly similar to that and it was OK for DW, and I have a Coreban carbon one that shares similarities and came with the Dart DW board, and it's quite acceptable.
There tends to be two classes of people looking for DW fins: those wanting extra stability and control, and those wanting to loosen things up a bit, and give extra "surf ability". The solutions for these are quite different, so not all fins will suit all people.
I'm not particularly keen on spitfire fins, personally - they don't surf well and they pick up weed. However the C4 Waterman bunch used to sell them with the DW boards, and they give a handling feeling similar to a (fixed) rudder so if you are used to ruddered boards maybe it would feel familiar handling-wise. Surfers are likely to prefer e.g. a Squirrel though (which isn't surprising since they are a classic prone longboard fin). Very upright fins have to be pivot-turned quite flat, so if you prefer to carve and surf in your downwinding, and have a board that allows it (by eg. not having rails that are too thick) then you'll probably be better off with a bit of rake and a cutaway-type design.
I know that DJ likes dolphin fins for downwind, but I'm a bit baffled as to why. Mind you, they would be an improvement on some of the past Naish designs, so maybe that is it. Fin choices can be very personal. For maximum manoeuvrability you don't want too much length in the fin base, and a dolphin has most of its area towards the base, which is its main shortcoming. The handling of a dolphin is fairly predictable though, and can be reasonably "drivey", even if it is too stiff for my liking, and doesn't deal with very confused water particularly well.
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@BS what size Squirrel did you get? I currently have the dolphin and that's the one that's too tight, so I won't be going down that road again.
I got the 9" Squirrel for my M-12'6. Only tried it once so far in waist high surf, and it seemed to track really well but loosen up if I got way back on the tail, which would probably translate well to downwind.
I also have an SIC weedless fin that came with my X-14 Pro. I haven't downwinded with that fin, but I like it a lot in a variety of conditions, and it's an improvement over the stock fin on the M-12'6 (less likely to roll the board when hit by waves or steep chop from an angle. I've even surfed some knee to thigh high waves on the X-14 Pro with that fin, and it turns ok with it, despite really being a flatwater board.
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Still have a number of the fins mentioned above for sale. Please check the classifieds.
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My choice would be the SIC 8.3 for a good DW learning fin. Plus a SIC 7.0 once your balance is good using the 8.3. The 8.3 will stall and broach if it is pushed to its limits and the 7.0 not so much. The 7.0 is a really good fin for DW. It is very hard to stall and broach. Yet gives good direction stability at speed across waves. The fin turns quickly and has just enough stability for me. SIC sells predominantly DW boards and not many complain that the OEM fins do not do their job as designed. I like both but the 7.0 definitely is better for my purposes.
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I know that DJ likes dolphin fins for downwind, but I'm a bit baffled as to why. Mind you, they would be an improvement on some of the past Naish designs, so maybe that is it. Fin choices can be very personal. For maximum manoeuvrability you don't want too much length in the fin base, and a dolphin has most of its area towards the base, which is its main shortcoming. The handling of a dolphin is fairly predictable though, and can be reasonably "drivey", even if it is too stiff for my liking, and doesn't deal with very confused water particularly well.
Yes I like dolphin fins.. and yes in the past Naish fins have been a bit average..
But there are dolphins and there are dolphins.. not all are good and the correct size is very important..
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I know that DJ likes dolphin fins for downwind, but I'm a bit baffled as to why. Mind you, they would be an improvement on some of the past Naish designs, so maybe that is it. Fin choices can be very personal. For maximum manoeuvrability you don't want too much length in the fin base, and a dolphin has most of its area towards the base, which is its main shortcoming. The handling of a dolphin is fairly predictable though, and can be reasonably "drivey", even if it is too stiff for my liking, and doesn't deal with very confused water particularly well.
Yes I like dolphin fins.. and yes in the past Naish fins have been a bit average..
But there are dolphins and there are dolphins.. not all are good and the correct size is very important..
Stick a nice new Blue/Yellow click-in FCSII Fat Boy 10" fin in that lovely Maliko of yours and never look back mate 😀 I see there's even a shop in Melbourne that is selling them. Or supuk is in Melbourne right now and maybe he could lend you his to try... and you could try at the same time the excellent 14ft DW board he shaped, and has shipped over with him.
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I wish I could find the stability of the JL Tracker with the manoeuvrability of a smaller fin....probably why I am ending up with the Futures Californian.....bit of a half way house.
It would just be bang on for me if it was a bit more stable.....but good enough.
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^ you'll get used to it. After that if you went back to the big Tracker fin you'd feel like you were on a truck.
Skills are far more versatile and fun than crutches. Lighter too.
[edit to add]
And more than anything it's learning the skills which is the fun part. Many sports have a much bigger penalty for failure. In SUP we just fall in the water. It's just so perfect for that. It's on that edge I have the most fun.
I quit paragliding, I didn't like to feel of doing a sport where you aren't well practiced on what to do at the limit. Didn't like that at all. Oh, also the huge penalty for failure.
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^ you'll get used to it. After that if you went back to the big Tracker fin you'd feel like you were on a truck.
Skills are far more versatile and fun than crutches. Lighter too.
Yup, guess so, just haven't had hardly any watertime recently....bring on 2017!
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I wish I could find the stability of the JL Tracker with the manoeuvrability of a smaller fin....probably why I am ending up with the Futures Californian.....bit of a half way house.
It would just be bang on for me if it was a bit more stable.....but good enough.
A 10" pivot-style hatchet might do that for you. Or JL used to do an 11" which really added quite a bit of stability. In fact Jimmy used to do a 13" version that was a real monster and I used to really like in very confused waters. They don't do that one any more unfortunately because it was a great solution for early-career downwinders in confused waters. The Purchase “Block Fin” by Christian Wach gives quite a bit of stability too and will still be more manoeuvrable than your JL tracker, although there is some compromise for sure. I can't really imagine a much worse fin than the JL Tracker for downwind, and I'm totally baffled as to why JL fits it to the M14 etc.
But everyone's tastes in downwind fin will change hugely as they do more downwinding. You get to rely on a certain degree of lateral twitchiness for steering.
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Here's most of my centre fins...half are from my surfing longboards but the rest SUP fins. Guess I should stick the fat boy in sometime. (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161230/05f283dd129e3308d8fc94fb9cb21309.jpg)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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You *definitely* should stick that Fat Boy in your M14, that's for sure!
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coldsup - that fat boy looks like it should work for what you want. Let us know how it goes.
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I probably will at some point.....I do wonder though if that bulbous tip will slow a board down as the water might wrap around it rather than a clean surfing type tip. Not that I would probably notice!
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I probably will at some point.....I do wonder though if that bulbous tip will slow a board down as the water might wrap around it rather than a clean surfing type tip. Not that I would probably notice!
I will know next summer when our inflow comes back with the sun...and like you I might not really notice the fine points of that Fat Boy ready for my Riviera DW.
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I probably will at some point.....I do wonder though if that bulbous tip will slow a board down as the water might wrap around it rather than a clean surfing type tip. Not that I would probably notice!
Nope, it won't slow you down. It will feel faster than the other fins you are using for SUP. I don't fully understand why this shape is quite so good for DW boards (or any ocean use for that matter), although I have some rough ideas (take a look eg. at keel/fin theory for sailing craft). But it is.
The SIC Weedless is another good fin. But the squirrel/fat boy designs have the same sort of speed and manoeuvrability but better stability and surf better in rough conditions. If I could only keep two fins from the scores I have it would be a SIC Weedless 7.0 and a 10" squirrel/fat boy. Together they cover most eventualities.
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8) Wow, a lot of good info here. Too much, in fact. Basically it seems to boil down to, "Try them all and see what you like." Based on what I've read (on this and other threads) I'm going to try and grab a LA Ninja and a 9-10" Squirrel; Whatever pops up used for cheap. Ride those for a bit and see whatever feels best then make modifications from there. ;D
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These pics clearly show the track differences btwn 2 completely opposing fin designs. First a very straight tracking Elite vs a very quick turning 7.0 SIC. The speed using the Elite was 6.9 mph and 7.2 using the SIC on full max sprint. On the water cutting across waves the effect is exactly the same. The 7.0 has much less drag and this can actually be felt. It turns whenever you want and does not stall or broach. The small speed difference btwn 6.9 feels very sluggish -> whereas 7.2 feels about right for me. Really like it when my boards free up. And that is really is the appeal to me about DW. The board frees up and releases its suction to the water.
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LOL, change of plans, found a new HI Downwinder for $60 delivered so I snatched that up for testing. 8)
@Eagle, very interesting post. It seems to really illustrate how much fin drag makes a difference.
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So I had a quick run yesterday with the Hawaii DW from FCS. HUGE improvement. I really didn't notice any loss in stability in washing machine reflected chop from the 10-11" dolphin I had on previously, but the surf ability was vastly improved. I could easily catch sideways bumps and hold my line without the board broaching or trying to carve up the face of the wave like with the dolphin. No loss in tracking, I could easily go 20+ strokes on a side without turning, but when I wanted to turning the board was much easier. Trying the LA Ninja next. We'll see how it compares. It's a REALLY big fin, but most of the area is concentrated in the base. So.....
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Good information dns. The Hawaii is quite an upright fin design - so should turn ok. Will be interesting to see how the Ninja compares. The DW fin design approaches from different manufacturers can be quite varied and is quite interesting. For the most part -> any fin can work - just that some have different pros and cons depending on what you need to get out of the fin. Have used all my 8 different fins for DW and AW - and each has a slightly different feel. Basically I use a tracker if I want to go straight AW - and a small fin for fast turns and fast speed on DW bumps.
https://futuresfins.com/en-us/hawaii-downwind---carbon-honeycomb---carbon-green-9003-427-12-detail
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Just out of interest....has anyone used the FCS Spitfure fin? I notice one of the guys in Greece uses this fin on his JL sidewinder.
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Yes, I have a Spitfire fin. Invented by Dave Parmenter and Todd Bradley I think. I've got a brand new one unopened if you want one...
One of these came standard with my C4 Holoholo 12ft. That was a very interesting and effective pocket DW and small surf board. Wish I hadn't sold it now.
It's a shame that C4 Waterman are different now. For a couple of years there they were the most innovative SUP brand going.
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It was more of curiosity - seems an old design so was surprised to see it being swapped in on a brand new board 2017 board.
Maybe it works well - certainly never see anyone with them these days - it looks a big beast!
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It seems to me that people believe whatever they want to believe about fins. So I think I'll pass this time on offering an opinion on the Spitfire.
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Ad copy says - "It is also ideal for straight-line flat water and open ocean paddling."
One reviewer says - "Great fin for open water and keeping a straight line. Really keeps board on course going downwind or upwind, lots of stability in the waves, but because of the length it does have more drag to it and it's not good for shallow areas."
Fin has a 4.3 base x 11.1 depth at 51 sq in. Looks to be a deep fin that provides directional stability. It seems fins that provide stability and tracking - have an offset of less speed and slower turning. This one may catch weeds as well. Could be that guy just simply likes this fin for his riding style and is really used to it.
https://www.thesurfboardwarehouse.com/p-2489-fcs-ii-fins-c4-spitfirebrsup-racing-fin.aspx
https://youtu.be/gVhQfbaWbps
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Basically - what probs happens is you adapt to the fin you use. Looking at your fin quiver coldsup -> you look to have most bases covered from BP to Ultra to JL plus the squirrel and plenty of dolphins variations.
I often use my Gladiator Elite for AW tracking and stability - and it works ok for that. Adds a lot of comfort and dampens the roll. But is not good for side waves or fast turning. As well feels kinda slow like it has a speed limit and can stall and broach if waves push you from behind. Def not suited for DW applications - but does work to keep you on your toes. Concentration levels go way up DW.
I really like the variation of fin designs. Really allows you to change the feel of your board just like that. :)
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Ad copy says - "It is also ideal for straight-line flat water and open ocean paddling."
One reviewer says - "Great fin for open water and keeping a straight line. Really keeps board on course going downwind or upwind, lots of stability in the waves, but because of the length it does have more drag to it and it's not good for shallow areas."
Fin has a 4.3 base x 11.1 depth at 51 sq in. Looks to be a deep fin that provides directional stability. It seems fins that provide stability and tracking - have an offset of less speed and slower turning. This one may catch weeds as well. Could be that guy just simply likes this fin for his riding style and is really used to it.
https://www.thesurfboardwarehouse.com/p-2489-fcs-ii-fins-c4-spitfirebrsup-racing-fin.aspx
https://youtu.be/gVhQfbaWbps
I have to agree with you Eagle this fin is not a Sup fin. Thought I would share from Swaylocks 10 years ago a fin called the Spitefire for Surfing. Interesting!!!!
http://www.swaylocks.com/groups/spitfire-fin-solo-pb-larry
10 years ago #1
Benny1's picture
Benny1
Last seen: 1 year 5 months ago
Joined: 07/29/2004
So there was a fin that caught my eye a couple months ago:
Because I'd been reading about tip drag etc. with all the talk about carbon hoops, Roy's fins, Oneula's Wavegrinder...
So Solo sent me this fin:
Made by Larry in this factory (see how many threads can come together?):
http://www.swaylocks.com/...orum.cgi?post=323606
And this is how I feel about it, after surfing it once in pretty nice south swell waves, about chest high...
OK Noel...
This fin can handle angles way beyond my abilities.
I put it all the way back in a box (that was already only 5" away from the tail) of a 10'1 longboard. Tail about 14", soft rails, tail rocker in an accelerated curve up to about 4". Its a composite board, only about 15 lb.
First wave I dropped into, I was 10' behind a section. But before I even had a chance to adjust my feet, I was popping out onto the shoulder. Had to drop a big kick stall to keep from outrunning the wave altogether.
And it was much the same on the next dozen waves.
I'm not kidding around or blowing smoke because I spent money - it was really all that. Kick stalls were the norm, probably had to throw one on 4 out of every 5 waves I caught today. My buddy Michael was saying how fast I was squirting out from behind the sections. There was even this dreadlocked guy who's always sitting inside, waiting to jump on when people can't make the section, and he had to keep pulling back when he could see that I was going to make it.
If this is what reduced ( or no?) tip drag is all about, then I want more.
Its funny: I'm a beginner kiteboarder. With a kite & light wind, you have to learn that keeping the kite moving creates more 'apparent wind' for the leading edge of the kite, making it seem to fly faster and therefore, create more lift. This fin felt just like a kite - on the big waves (like high wind), I could trim it out, park it, and go light speed. On the mushier waves, if I kept it moving - sine waves up & down, just like a kite - it would push faster & faster. Other fins, when the waves mush, you can push them but at a certain point it becomes academic.
How many more can you make?
:)
Thanks again
Ben
Edit: BTW, in case anyone was waiting for a review of the other fin combinations possible with that board... I've also tested the board twice with the Griff-type 5-fin setup, 4 equal 4" front & back side fins, and a 3" center. Its good off the bottom, faster & more stable in trim than I expected, rollercoasters nicely, but hangs up in the top of the wave a little, like it would rather hold a high line than hit high & come back down. Takes more effort than I thought it would to redirect downwards.
Next up (if I can bring myself to take out the Spitfire fin) is a quad, like Robin recommended (in the photo above), with the upright 4.5" fronts, raked 4" rears, so I can pivot off the fronts & drive off the back.
Now, all I need is some more waves. :)
1024655_winglesskeel2_0.jpg
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So in addition to the FCS HI DW I picked up an LA Ninja. It's sitting on the board right now, but I haven't had a chance to paddle it yet. It's huge looking, a veritable work of art, and I'm excited to see how it compares to the FCS being such a different design, but also highly recommended for DW performance.
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So, I just had my first paddle on the Ninja and I'm decidedly lukewarm on it. :-\ We did a 7 mile sort of DW run with a 18kt quartering to full tailwind, tailing 1-2 foot secondary swell, and a 4-5 foot primary swell at 80* from the left. The Ninja surfed really nicely, felt good and slippery through the water, but the lack of stability was brutal. I fell off MANY times, I thought it was just because I'm crap, but halfway through I swapped to my buddies Falcon (same board same year) but with a BP dolphin fin. The difference was HUGE. I was no longer falling off and definitely making saves that previously had me in the drink. (And, conversely, he spent a LOT more time in the water.)
So, I think the Ninja may be a good fin for ideal conditions, but in anything less than perfect the FCS is going to be the ticket. More reports to follow.
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The Ninja surfed really nicely, felt good and slippery through the water, but the lack of stability was brutal. I fell off MANY times
dns - are these the 2 fins you have been testing? It seems FCS does not have a Hawaii fin -> but Futures does. For the Ninja - what do you think is causing so much instability?
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Sorry, yes. It is the Futures Hawaii DW. I was a little loopy when I typed that. :o I'm really not a fin guru by any means, but if I had to speculate I'd say it had to do with area in the tip. The Ninja has little area in the tip, so less area providing roll stability. With the BP dolphin I easily recovered from 45* board angles, but with the N the board just kept rolling. Again, the N feels like a good fin, it surfs nicely, but with steep 4-5 foot swells coming from the side I just kept getting tossed off. Also, when I lost speed coming off the back of a bump the board got very unstable. In better conditions (and if I were better) I think it would be a good fin, but in nasty washing machine conditions I need more help in the stability department.
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Your experiences with the Ninja downwind are exactly what I'd have predicted.
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"The Ninja has little area in the tip, so less area providing roll stability. With the BP dolphin I easily recovered from 45* board angles, but with the N the board just kept rolling."
Very good info dns. Interesting.
Even though I have 8 different fins - they are of somewhat similar themes. So pretty much know how each one handles down to a T after using them so much. But other fin designs not so much. My major concerns are stability and tracking then maneuverability and speed. And finding the best blend given the board and conditions. So far the SIC 8.3 and 7.0 have produced the best results for me. But am always open to different approaches.
With your Hawaii - what are you feeling with that fin? Good and bad?
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Sorry, yes. It is the Futures Hawaii DW. I was a little loopy when I typed that. :o I'm really not a fin guru by any means, but if I had to speculate I'd say it had to do with area in the tip. The Ninja has little area in the tip, so less area providing roll stability. With the BP dolphin I easily recovered from 45* board angles, but with the N the board just kept rolling. Again, the N feels like a good fin, it surfs nicely, but with steep 4-5 foot swells coming from the side I just kept getting tossed off. Also, when I lost speed coming off the back of a bump the board got very unstable. In better conditions (and if I were better) I think it would be a good fin, but in nasty washing machine conditions I need more help in the stability department.
dns, after reading your latest post, I would suggest you look into the new
LA Spartan fin. I have some issues as you do and it seem to check all the
boxes. I posted a short video review here on the zone: http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,31280.0.html
Illustrating "good saves" I wasn't able to achieve with other fins.
The board on display is a very tippy board with a very rounded bottom and
lots of volume (340L) so broaching is a big issue. The fin is also very fast to carry you over in between glides.
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"The Ninja has little area in the tip, so less area providing roll stability. With the BP dolphin I easily recovered from 45* board angles, but with the N the board just kept rolling."
Very good info dns. Interesting.
Even though I have 8 different fins - they are of somewhat similar themes. So pretty much know how each one handles down to a T after using them so much. But other fin designs not so much. My major concerns are stability and tracking then maneuverability and speed. And finding the best blend given the board and conditions. So far the SIC 8.3 and 7.0 have produced the best results for me. But am always open to different approaches.
With your Hawaii - what are you feeling with that fin? Good and bad?
I think the HI DW is going to be the best fin for my balance, my conditions, and this board. I need to ride it more, but the straight vertical profile seems to impart the proper combination of loose surfability, stability, and speed. The HIDW surfs really nice, it feels like a regular surfboard in that I can carve on the bump and the board reacts like I expect it to. I don't have to weight the opposite edge to get the board to turn. When paddling the board tracks well, but I can still turn it easily with wide paddle strokes unlike the big dolphin that I had on there before.
After reading a ton of posts, reviews, and manufacturer propaganda I can't find any reason, besides weed shedding, to go with a raked fin. I don't have to deal with weeds in my part of the world, so that's not an issue. The Ninja surfed nicely, it felt very similar to the HIDW when surfing, but lacked stability at low speed and getting getting hit with cross chop.
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Thx for that review dns. The closest fin we have to the HI DW is the Race 23 fin shown on the right in the pic. That is my third best option and most vertical profile fin - but find that it has a top end speed limit surfing and planing down and across waves. Turns ok with only a very small amount of stall - but does feel a bit squirrelly at full speed.
The SIC 8.3 feels better at speed but can stall a slight amount more. The 7.0 has no stall issues and literally turns on a dime. Works ok on my AS23 and transforms my M14 into a turning demon. Makes that board completely change from a sticky slow board into a responsive fast board. Basically if the JL Tracker is put on the Bullet and 7.0 is put on the M14 -> the M14 is a better performing board. Is more stable and turns faster - and becomes a very fun ride. Fins make a huge difference.
Look forward to more of your input on fins in the future. :)
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Could be that mid-fin area bulge allows that fin to give you just enough stability for your conditions. Out this way we have a ton of short period steep chop wind waves. No huge ocean swell like Hawaii. Think coldsup has the Cali - and he seems to like that fin as well. Maybe that bulge takes away that squirrelly feeling in the Race 23 fin.
https://youtu.be/-nlut-0xW-0
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has anyone tried the VMG fins?
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has anyone tried the VMG fins?
I have. My personal choice for them is for boards with a "rounded" or flat bottom like the Falcon or Ace where they really shine.
Used them with the Bark Downwinder and they were great - flat pintail.
I like them less for something with forms like the Blackfish.
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Luc Benac - which VMG fin's do you and also use for the BF?
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Luc Benac - which VMG fin's do you and also use for the BF?
I have the Mako 37, 44 and TT.
I do not use any with the BF except the TT for some flat water speed.
I used the 37 for down-winding and the 44 for rough seas with the Bark DW.
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I just swapped my Futures Cali out and put the 2017 Starby Allstar fin in my M14.... more stable and still surfed fine. Reckon I will stick with it for DW too now and when I get better put the Cali back in maybe.
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Haha - used my mid-sized Ultra Race fin as well the past couple times to mix things up on the 23. First time in a long time felt kinda weird - but could not put my finger on it. Just felt a bit unstable over my 5 mile loop for some reason. Then went out again on Friday just before a snowstorm - and it was perfectly fine on a 2 mi up and 2 mi down.
So think it is an ok compromise fin and just needs to be used more. Does not track super strong which minimizes stalling - yet provides ok stability and turns ok. Speed is not super fast but is ok. coldsup - have you had a chance to test your squirrel yet?
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When a fin, or wing, or sail, stalls, it loses it’s ability to lift. A spinout is effectively a stall. If you know what a spinout feels like, it’s when the fin suddenly feels like it isn’t there any more. It has lost it's lift. Suddenly you skid sideways.
I imagine you are describing the opposite effect. Where it feels too big or grabby. Too big. No?
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Haha - used my mid-sized Ultra Race fin as well the past couple times to mix things up on the 23. First time in a long time felt kinda weird - but could not put my finger on it. Just felt a bit unstable over my 5 mile loop for some reason. Then went out again on Friday just before a snowstorm - and it was perfectly fine on a 2 mi up and 2 mi down.
So think it is an ok compromise fin and just needs to be used more. Does not track super strong which minimizes stalling - yet provides ok stability and turns ok. Speed is not super fast but is ok. coldsup - have you had a chance to test your squirrel yet?
Nope, not tried squirrel as yet. Not really done any DW....just surfing.
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yugi as noted - a stall is when there is a big bubble void and the fin loses lift because of the angle of attack. Just straighten out down a wave and you can recover and re-attach flow. A small fin keeps flow attached much better - but stability sometimes can be a con. Feeling is pretty much the same on your rudder just before a broach when sailing. Happens all the time if you are pushing speed at the limit for your heading and sail plan. We surf and try to plane our ULDB all the time in heavy breeze and swell.
Have only spun out one time in that pic I posted before on my M14. Most often just feel a touch of stall - then simply power out of it. Even on my big tracking Elite. Is pretty easy -> unless waves get steep and wind is weak. Trick is once you feel it - power out before you round up. ;)
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I’m a windsurfer, I know what losing laminar flow on a fin feels like and I know how to [head downwind to] regain laminar flow. I'm also a sailor and know well what a broach is.
I’ve never felt a fin stall on a SUP.
I’ve broached plenty of times. The round-up death roll. I keep thinking you mean broach when you say stall.
I know I keep asking you this I’m either not understanding what you are talking about or I simply haven’t had it happen to me. I guess I could just consider myself lucky if I’m not getting it.
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The stall occurs if you lose speed when you head across a steep wave. The wave behind pushes the fin because you are going too slow and the fin starts to cavitate. This becomes a) a round-up like in my M14 pic or b) a full-on broach and flip or c) a recovery where you head down the wave and re-attach flow.
So basically stall happens before you get to a broach. So if you have broached and flipped -> your fin generally just stalled first is all. I guess you could do a death-roll without a stall - but that has never happened to me. What happens most is that my speed slows because I let up - the wave behind pushes the fin sideways as I go hard left or right - the fin loses flow - and you correct or broach. Is a very distinctive feeling and easy to correct. I do not broach much ever or death-roll. If you stay ahead of the wave -> you do not broach. That is the key.
So in sailing this is primarily caused from excessive heel angle and your rudder lifting out of the water. Happens all the time on a overpowered reach with kite keeping a high angle. Last yacht race we broached upwind maybe 2 times or so - and DW about 4 times. But we were going at our limits of speed and the winter down drafts were strong and gusty. Probs true 20 kts and hard gusts 30. Over-canvassed -> but it did pay off as we won our Div and got our name engraved again. Was a super close race. But had sails up for the lulls which is normal race strategy.
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In this vid at 3:10 DJ gets rolled as the wave behind pushes his fin around broadside. The board goes parallel to the steep cresting wave - and the fin is 100% stalled. He has no option but to fully broach and get tossed. That vid is an excellent rough conditions instructional vid. Excellent. ^^^
You can see beforehand he is heading more down the waves so keeps some flow around the fin. I have been in this position as well and got dumped kneeling on my 23. That board is very tippy in steep waves and very hard to balance on at slow speed. You have to get some forward speed then hop up to your feet fast and start paddling hard. Momentum is huge on that board in waves.
Have done that same kneeling with my M14 in steep waves and breeze. Actually got the board to plane a bit in similar conditions as the vid. Was way too tippy and dangerous for me to stand. Kneeling kept me dry and safe until in more sheltered waters. That is a stalled fin that lead directly to a broach. The more it goes across the wave and the slower you go -> the more chance of a broach. Really is quite simple. Just head down the wave and get flow attached again. ;)
https://vimeo.com/83447732
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I’m never gotten the impression that a stall of the fin was the root of a broach. I’ll try pay attention next time. I get plenty of the side wave action like seen in DJs vid as I like to paddle out from my put-in point to get out to a better line (in line with bottom contours).
Mostly my impression is it simply is a matter of getting quartered, which dips the downwind rail causing the board to round up and getting pushed more and more from the side. Pretty much what I see in DJ’s vid. I’d think I was pretty tuned to the feel of losing traction at the fin from windsurfing. I've had, and spun out, out all kinds of fins over 30 years. Funny how after all those fancy developments it's back to simple fins.
For sure paddling like a maniac is the key. As in all “glisse” sports applying more speed does help.
I really like that video DJ. The change in ambiance, and the accompanying tunes, is excellent.. Cracks me up every time. Why is it wipeouts make us laugh so much?
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"I’d think I was pretty tuned to the feel of losing traction at the fin from windsurfing."
What you do on a rudder and tiller is just jiggle it really fast and hard to re-attach flow when on a power kite run. The bubble goes away and you can head DW again -> most times. If not you just heel right over and the rudder loses complete traction and you round-up and broach if you do not blow sails. In that way it is quite related to SUP - as the feeling is pretty much the same for me. The problem in SUP though - is you often round-up broach and get dumped. Haha!
https://youtu.be/DkouAjobzac
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At 1:35 is a nice round-up broach and dump - on a powered kite run. Slamming into the backside of that one wave was just enough to throw the bow broadside and carve up. The guy on the kite sheet was clueless. But looked like more driver error than anything. He was running very hot. And the kite sheet looked cleated - and main fully eased.
On a SUP same sort of thing. Nose ploughs down a wave and twists - wave behind pushes and stalls your fin as you slow from the pearl - and get ready to be wet. Ever since that happened to me years ago - have been super sensitive to fin stall angling down and across waves. Best is to practice with the tracking Elite in more docile conditions - since that fin stalls and gets a bubble in an instant. yugi - what fin have you been using when you broach? And what puts you into this situation?
https://youtu.be/Wt1j7wiS5Zk
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What are you guys doing for broaching to be such a concern for you? I haven't broached for a couple of years. I've almost forgotten what it's like. IMO broaching is more about getting caught standing where you shouldn't be than fin choice. But then again maybe I hardly ever broach because I use squirrel-type fins :)
If your back foot is over your fin you will be unlucky to broach. So if you feel you are going to broach then my advice is to get back on your board FAST, and use your paddle to pivot your nose downwind.
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Haha A10 - broaching to me reflects user error not responding to fin stall fast enough by staying feet planted. The squirrel does not have a huge area to generate a bubble so it should be ok for that. The SIC 7.0 seems to perform best out of my 8 fin choices with zero broaching and enough stability on my 23 - so that is my goto fin. Basically you do need to move your balance point immediately to prevent a broach. Stepping back heavy to the side where the wave is pushing - and heading down that wave - does work to prevent a broach. For me it is a fun little challenge - like skidding down a wave vs surfing it. Keeps it fun out there.
Broaching situations occurred most often on my carbon Touring with the piercing displacement. In steep waves entering Squamish where it shallows up - you learn real fast to move back fast. As well one time with Luc at Ambleside - tried his wood Touring in cresting beach swells - and did a perfect broach save. Haha - still remember that as I has normal clothes on. That board has a heavy nose that pearl twists - and with a pintail makes stepping back not good for the timid. Luc loved that board at one time - and since purchased about 5 different boards per year. He is getting close to you A10 - but does not keep so many at one time as you. ;)
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We probably agree... It's ok for you guys anyway because I hear that Trump is about to issue an Executive Order that will ban people who broach from mainland US, its territories and neighbours. Problem solved!
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;D ;D ;D
https://youtu.be/p2Ee45UhQC0
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Have kept that green Ultra Race on coldsup. Today that fin performed flawlessly. Gave good stability yet turned ok. No broaching tendency and speed ok. Maybe it was just getting used to it. As noted I have not used much my mid-sized fins in a long while. But am starting to appreciate their attributes again.
Here are a few pics of our latest snowfall delaying our spring flowers we sometimes get by now. Everyone here is pretty much fed up with all this snow nonsense. We like our roads clear and when we want snow - we just drive 25 min to get plenty of snow on our local mtns. Whatever - still went paddling anyways. :)
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So, a mini update. I went today for a quick 3 mile paddle escorting some swimmers and happened upon an absolutely glorious shoulder-head high peeling glassy right. I couldn't say no even though I was on the Falcon, not the ideal "surf" board by any means, but the HI DW fin was amazing. Dropping into steep waves it surfed perfectly and held high on the face over sucking-dry reef. Stability was great in cross chop. Tracking was good, unlimited strokes on whichever side I chose, but still loose enough to turn reasonably well when I wanted. There may be better fins for some conditions, but for all-around the HI DW is my ideal. 8)
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"There may be better fins for some conditions, but for all-around the HI DW is my ideal."
Very interesting. We have been trying our mid-sized fins as well lately and we are really liking them for extra tracking -> yet ok turning. On a wave that HI should be in its element.