Standup Zone Forum
The Foil Zone => Foil SUP => Topic started by: Piros on December 19, 2016, 01:04:27 AM
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Found this on the web , pretty amazing to connect a Foil to your Sup . Forget the Tuttle box. I'm nothing to do with these guys.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCrBuRaSZRc
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The Zone Will it Foil? contest is now open.
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^ OK!
So the next question is: how hard is it to unstick the Foilmount? You know, so once I've foiled my fridge door so I can stick it on something else.
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Not that I know anything about it, but I would think there would be a lot of stress on a foil mount. Are these just glued on, if so, it seems like it would come off. Even if it stayed attached, a lot would be dependent on how well the glass job sticks to the foam. I would at least add a significant glass patch under it.
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Not that I know anything about it, but I would think there would be a lot of stress on a foil mount. Are these just glued on, if so, it seems like it would come off. Even if it stayed attached, a lot would be dependent on how well the glass job sticks to the foam. I would at least add a significant glass patch under it.
Yep.
SIC had enough problems [with a batch] just getting the glass to stick to the foam without a foil levering it away. Having seen that I wondered the same thing.
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Might get expensive when your foil and mast lever off and sink into the deep blue. :o
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It's a great idea. I might have gone for a larger area, but I suspect that works very well. Undoubtedly best on boards with a more substantial bottom. And no, it's not coming off.
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Since it's not coming off, that board is not much good for anything else. Then there is the issue of finding a foil with those mounts that will work on a SUP.
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I would be very worried about it delamination, especially with a kite, I can also see it pressing in one side and pulling on the outher. Boards are not designed for the glass to take these sort of loads and will certainly void any warrantee. The pest way to get anything like this or things like go pro mounts of is to use a pice of braded wire trace and pull it under it and cheers wire it off. The only thing I would trust this on is perhaps a wakeboard/kite board.
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It's a great idea. I might have gone for a larger area, but I suspect that works very well. Undoubtedly best on boards with a more substantial bottom. And no, it's not coming off.
Even if the glue holds, wouldn't there be a problem with delamination from the stress to a board not designed or glassed to have a foil on the bottom?
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My thoughts are that the 3M can be pried off if you want. And especially over time -> with wear and tear submerged. Once any water gets under - it could start to slowly peel under stress from a corner. As well - thought that the board was never designed to take point loading like that. Without any reinforcing -> the board may start to compress and delam. Something to maybe think about anyways.
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My thoughts are that the 3M can be pried off if you want. And especially over time -> with wear and tear submerged. Once any water gets under - it could start to slowly peel under stress from a corner. As well - thought that the board was never designed to take point loading like that. Without any reinforcing -> the board may start to compress and delam. Something to maybe think about anyways.
Agree, might should work up some sort of backup, like maybe a leash. If they break off, I doubt a foil would float. Awful expensive offering to King Neptune.
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Zoo - for sure that would not work on my Dominator. You can easily dent it on the bottom with your thumb. And sometimes the dent happens by just looking at it. Haha. So the bottom would eventually delam plus the 3M would probs unstick because the bottom is not flat anymore. Seems to me -> best to get a foil and board designed for that purpose. And not simply use an add-on like this. Too many variables not addressed and sorted. And yeah - losing your foil to King Neptune would be a major WTF moment after a little wipeout. ;D >:(
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Production boards, not customs.
But why is everyone doing Tuttles? Seems like the 2 track method is way better. Are those standard longboard tracks or something custom? This seems like a far more stable mounting system could be made by putting 2 tracks in high density foam, no?
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After learning to foil on the liquid force board I wanted to try a lighter board. I had this lightweight custom strapless board that I had used years ago that was collecting dust. I routed out some foam and glued in some high density foam. Then I routed out and installed 2 mast tracks. Glassed to taste and wa la. Best riding foilboard I have had to date. The lighter board really lowered the swing weight and felt lively compared to the LF board.
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Nice work man and thanks for the pic and post so quickly.
A lot of us haven't been around kites so thanks for catching us up.
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Of course the hard way is usually the right way, but if you have some chunkster board kicking around and you want to try foiling, then this would be a fine way to get rolling fast. I could stick it on my old twin-tip Naish kiteboard and it would be a permanent thing. While that thing floats, it feels and acts like a solid chunk of fiberglass. Got to be foam in there somewhere, but it wouldn't delam.
And yes, ia SUP baord is gonna delam, and yes, it will eventually break off. Most of the foils I've seen actually float. The masts displace a lot of water.
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Cool.....but why not make the surface area of the mount larger? Also, if the plate was an ellipse it would distribute the load more uniformly. On that note, where do the biggest loads on the mast occur during use?...front to back, side to side? Probably designed smaller so it will fit bottom contours on the largest # of boards?.
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I could stick it on my old twin-tip Naish kiteboard and it would be a permanent thing. While that thing floats, it feels and acts like a solid chunk of fiberglass.
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May I be the first to request a video of you paddling that thing out. I'm just curious how a board where you sink in up to your nipples handles when you paddle.
I'm always on the lookout for new school technique tips. What kind of paddle would you use? A sawn off outrigger paddle? I imagine stock length would be about twice too long.
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I think a duplex paddle--with a handle at canoe length and one at extended foil length.
On a more serious note, I think Bob is right, they could make a version for thin-skinned boards by extending the base substantially, making it egg-shaped, tapering the thickness out to the edges to reduce stress risers, and making it the full width of the most likely board--probably 24" or thereabouts. If they did that it would probably become the preferred method of adding a foil. It would be as strong or stronger than mounts that penetrate the foam. Not as strong as tuttles or through bolt but stronger than fin boxes. Foam doesn't provide a lot of support, even when you increase the load area with PVC foam insert--there's still EPS providing the ultimate support
the 3M mega adhesive doesn't lift from exposure to water. You have to cut it off somehow. Of the three mounts I've had to remove, I damaged the board in two cases. A wide mount like the one I'm daydreaming of would be as permanent as any glassed on mount.
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^yep
do it
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Foam doesn't provide a lot of support, even when you increase the load area with PVC foam insert--there's still EPS providing the ultimate support
Very true, however if the PVC foam insert is bonded to the deck then you would have created a fairly strong sandwich to support the foil. Which is basically the same as a Tuttle box.
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https://youtu.be/g8pNdilmXF8
https://youtu.be/cNYg_hkaCLo
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Pono, that design could be made of two pieces of laser cut or CNC aluminum welded together. I'm sure you can visualize it just from that.
Simple, elegant, light and strong. Easy to manufacture. The only thing to consider if using aluminum is fitting to the contours of the bottom if it didn't really flex. Maybe thinner outer bottom plate with a thicker inner plate for the slots. 10" wide for inner 1/4" thick with a 20" outer ellipse that's more flexible, maybe 1/8".
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So early...lots of RD to do.
I wonder how 3D printing would work for it....on call manufacturing...3D scan the bottom of your board and they print a base to match.
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Both ways would probably work. I like the aluminum approach--you could probably make a very secure and stable aluminum base that would be as light as most composite approaches. the biggest problem with composites is that they don't distribute shock loads well.
I need a project to justify a CNC mill. Some of the new maker stuff is just fabulous. I made the mistake of going to the SF Maker Faire. I've been lusting after expensive toys ever since. I don't do much with my 3D printers--they're in the toy category. The on call printers are much more capable.
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https://youtu.be/g8pNdilmXF8
This tuttle box installation video is very good. The tuttle box is encased in high density foam and connects the top and bottom glass of the board for a much stronger installation than regular fin boxes. After experiencing the amount of force applied to a foil, I would not attempt to foil with a stick on mount. Keep in mind that the forces on a foil are much greater than those on a regular fin box. The foil carries the full weight of the rider and board and in addition is a long lever that multiplies the force. We broke a mast in our early foiling attempts and it was made of solid, very thick carbon fiber and I doubt this stick on mount would have been as strong as the mast we broke.
I think part of the reason it broke is that we were beginners and not using the foil with finesse but that's what happens when you are learning something and you don't have the skills yet to let the foil do the work. For more advanced riders that already know how to foil, this could be a good way to quickly retrofit a board but I would wait to see how it holds up for beginners before recommending it for anyone.
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After checking out the Foil Mount System, I found another video about it on youtube. It seems pretty solid when attached to a board. It's probably a permanent solution. The board may even have to snap in half before the mount would ever come off! You should check it out too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4j6ditXEOQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4j6ditXEOQ)
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Im sure the adhesive is up to it but the light glass job on most sups is what most are questioning.
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Yeah it's the board you are attaching it to that's the worry, not the foil.
Unless you've seen a SUP cut in half you might not realise how little material there actually is there. The skin can be as thin as around a millimetre thick (on e.g. a single skin carbon board) on the bottom. That's all that is separating you from foam (which by the way usually isn't some fancy stuff, but often just looks like cheap packing foam you'd throw away when a new TV is delivered).
So, how is this going to have the strength to take the pressure that this foil would make upon it?
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That proves it. Stand Up paddlers can kick Kiteboarder's asses at pull-ups.
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Yeah, the video shows that it will work fine on the right board. The most significant proof is that little kids really like to climb. Watching the video and seeing the bottom of that very stout board flex inward at the bottom and out at the top, I'm thinking "do that on any SUP board I own and you'll be on your ass".
A light SUP board has a remarkably small amount of material, and just enough strength to do what it was designed to do. You need a mongo board to use the mount reliably as is. Even something in the range of 35 pounds for a ten footer would probably not be enough.
It's still an easy path to a foilboard. You could add three or four layers of glass and carbon to the bottom of a board as a tapered, board width, quarter length patch. A flat patch is an easy layup. The end result would be as strong or stronger than the typical mount which is two fin boxes. Still not as strong as a tuttle, but I think most foil bases use the fin box mounting, not a tuttle. And if the board you mount a tuttle into is really flimsy, the tuttle is going to delam too.
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Pono, taking DW's advice and keeping the bottom flat, you could bag in a nice piece of 1/8" birch ply and sandwich that up for a post mount. That'd get you a nice mount point if done well. Hell, make the whole bottom out of it, it's a foil board, just give it a Wavestorm-like down rail all around. Hmmm...
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I know this thread is a little stale, but seemed like the appropriate place to post some feedback on the foil mount. I went this route because I wanted to mount a foil to a 6' FCD Fark shortboard that is too thin for a tuttle box. I'm using a GoFoil Kai with a Manta adapter to the track mount. I have a handful of days on it and it seems solid. I'm guessing it's stronger than my board is. My board is pretty flat but with very slight tail rocker. You can see in the photo that the foil mount is peeled up a bit toward the tail (1/2" back?). Not sure if this is due to difficulty getting the glue to set initially in that spot or perhaps leaving the foil bolted on, which would tend to pull the mount back to flat (and the tail section away from the board). Either way, I have been riding it like that and it doesn't feel loose at all.
The adapter is from Manta. It's about as clean as I could imagine, but still seems sadly bulky to add to such an efficient foil. I guess it doesn't matter when I'm in the air but I definitely think about it when I'm paddling to catch a wave. Also, not sure I love that the foil is a few inches deeper than it would otherwise have been. https://www.mantafoils.com/e-shop/Manta-deep-tuttle-to-plate-adapter-p85832834
I know the GoFoils float, but when it's attached to the metal adapter and the foil mount... not so sure. I tied up a little leash that goes around to my leash string for the time being just to give myself some peace of mind until I'm a little more confident in the setup.
Overall, easy to install, so far so good. For about the same price I kind of wish I went the route of installing twin boxes. I'd have a little more confidence and at least I could still go surf this board without the foil that way.
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Stoke
How long was the wait/ ship time for The Tuttle adapter plate from Manta? I know its overseas from the US.. Is anyone here make an adapter plate? I too have the foil mount attached to my SUP ( working well so far. dozen sessions on it ).. Thanks for the input.
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It's either a long wait (multi week) or expensive postage from overseas for the Manta. I'm a little surprised there isn't a domestic alternative but I didn't run across one. GoFoil said they're working on one but it's not available yet. They referred me to Manta in the meantime.
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