Standup Zone Forum

Stand Up Paddle => Technique => Topic started by: Esteroali on August 02, 2016, 07:00:22 AM

Title: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Esteroali on August 02, 2016, 07:00:22 AM
So I have been watching two videos about technique. I can't understand if they are describing the same thing in different ways or the techniques are diametrically opposed.
Video #1.  Connor Baxters video on Blue Planet with Robert Stehlik. In the last quarter of the video he describes the drive. He seems to "sit in a chair" and drive his hips FORWARD to the paddle.
Video  #2.. Larry Cains Video Analysis 01.  Larry describes sitting in the chair as a fault and tells the paddler to move the hips forward so you can use the big muscles to drive BACK.

I'm confused. Are these two completely different techniques on paddling or what?
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: bernhardd on August 02, 2016, 08:01:37 AM
https://youtu.be/q0dK7O-iTj0

More to confuse you!

Have fun
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: PonoBill on August 02, 2016, 08:04:12 AM
I think the motion is complicated enough and the timing so fussy that no one explains it well. I use hips and legs all the time to drive my board into a swell, and I engage my hips in flatwater paddling in a similar way with different timing. I can't describe the motion any better than these guys do but the end result is "kicking" your board into a swell, using hips and legs to get the last bit of acceleration necessary to match speed with the swell at just the right moment to efficiently transfer power to the board. It doesn't matter that you'll have to give that acceleration back at the end of the stroke because you caught the swell and it's power overcomes the little deceleration.

The other method is driving forward with your hips to complete the twisting motion of your core, gaining big-muscle power. I concentrate on driving the hip on the side of the paddle forwards as I uncoil into the stroke. Dave says both hips, and I think I'm actually using both, but it's easiest to time if you focus on one hip.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Quickbeam on August 02, 2016, 08:38:35 AM
So I have been watching two videos about technique. I can't understand if they are describing the same thing in different ways or the techniques are diametrically opposed.
Video #1.  Connor Baxters video on Blue Planet with Robert Stehlik. In the last quarter of the video he describes the drive. He seems to "sit in a chair" and drive his hips FORWARD to the paddle.
Video  #2.. Larry Cains Video Analysis 01.  Larry describes sitting in the chair as a fault and tells the paddler to move the hips forward so you can use the big muscles to drive BACK.

I'm confused. Are these two completely different techniques on paddling or what?


Yes, they are different. Connor has his own unique style and it is different than what most others would teach. Having said that, he certainly gets results with what he is doing, so I think it comes down to finding out what works for you.

Pono Bill is correct in that technique is extremely difficult to explain. There are others on this board who are way better paddlers than I am, so I’ll ask them to chime in if I get anything wrong. This is my take on it. One of the best ways I’ve heard the stroke technique described is to make sure you pull yourself to the paddle. Don’t pull the paddle to you. This maybe doesn’t make a lot of sense in writing, but when you are out on the water it does. It really means that you don’t use your arms to paddle, you use your core. Part of using your core involves a body twisting motion. And as part of this body twisting you can use your hips to help thrust you forward. It actually works.

As an example. If I’m in a race and coming up to a buoy turn and I’m a little bit off line to where I want to enter the turn, I can actually use my hips to bring myself back online. Instead of taking the time to switch the paddle over to the other side, I just thrust my hips even more than usual and it will act just like a correcting stroke. I'm not thrusting my hips like Connor says, but rather thrusting my hips as part of my core twisting motion. The hips become part of the twisting motion. Your hips can and should be a powerful part of your stroke.

You’ll also notice with Larry Cain that he paddles with one foot slightly forward than the other. He uses a staggered stance. I actually like that stance, but most would teach that you should have your feet even with each other. I think this is one of those things that you do whatever works best for you.

One more thing about stroke technique. Last year I had some pretty serious elbow issues, most of which I believed were related to paddling. I didn’t paddle most of last winter to rest my elbows and then I started to examine stroke technique to try and see if there was something I was doing wrong. I tried so many different techniques, and looked at so many different videos, that I was totally lost and confused, and quite frankly got really frustrated. I just got really lost in what I was actually supposed to be doing. I went out with a young fellow I know who is an excellent paddler and he gave me just a couple of very minor pointers that got me back on track, but my point is it is really easy to get lost and confused in stroke technique.

Once again there are some very good paddlers on this site with a lot more experience than I have, so hopefully they will chime in as well. I’ve just listed what works for me.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: supsurf-tw on August 02, 2016, 10:24:13 AM
Connors technique felt backwards to me when I tried it. I think a lot of it comes down to individual physiology, how your body's built and where you carry your strength. Connors vid was a good example of "more than 1 way to skin a cat" as far as paddling styles go.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Esteroali on August 02, 2016, 11:06:53 AM
Link to Video #1. Connor Baxter.

https://youtu.be/Q7PG-0PrPoQ

Link to Video #2.  Larry Cain


https://vimeo.com/166383038
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Bean on August 02, 2016, 12:23:37 PM
Ever since first watching the CB vid, my personal paddle stroke has been in total limbo, I'm like a drunk playing musical chairs...
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: mrbig on August 02, 2016, 01:16:56 PM
+1 Bean. Joe Weider muscle confusion. All monked up.

+1  Drunk on musical chairs!!

 ;D  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Esteroali on August 02, 2016, 01:19:36 PM
I am a newbie. Mature female paddling less than a year so I'm glad I'm not the only one confused. I feel like trying to dance to disco, my body can't figure out which way to go.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: nalu-sup on August 02, 2016, 02:06:41 PM
My 2 cents. At first I thought that two videos were very different when Larry was talking about not likeing the chair; but then as it progressed I got the impression that his real issue was with the lack of ankle flexion which is what caused the weight to be back on the heels instead of up on the balls of the feet at the catch. Near the end, Larry talked a lot about the importance of bringing the hips forward strongly during the stroke, so that means he also advocates the hips dropping down and back in preparation for that movement like Conner talks about. He just wants to see the ankles flexing at the same time so that the person does not sit back on their heals.
It reminds me of skiing; everyone says to bend your knees, but that just sets the skiers weight back on their heels (very bad) unless the ankles flex to match. Since Larry used the analogy of ski boots, I think this same skier problem is what he was seeing in the video.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Eagle on August 02, 2016, 07:22:24 PM
A lot of good info in those vids.  Forward ankle flexion and reach are key with a strong catch and heavy pull.  This can launch you from glide into planing mode when DW paddling in short period medium sized swells and fresh breeze.

Last DW on the weekend - actually slowed down on the Bullet 14V2 by dragging my paddle planing - as the board was pearling too much into waves ahead even standing back.  Conditions were steep short period swell in full whitecaps which were not optimal for the board.  In smaller swells later that same run - that board easily skipped over waves to the swells ahead.  My wife on our M-14 also enjoyed the run.  She cannot plane but she catches plenty of glides.

So basically if you take from each of those vids certain specific techniques discussed - you can paddle a lot better and have more fun as well.  This vid is also good -

https://youtu.be/tZ1KPj56G_g
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Billekrub on August 07, 2016, 09:49:38 AM
Had exactly the same reaction at first, but after thinking about it (never do this) why not incorporate both at the same time, CB and LC?

LC--twist by bringing paddle-side hip forward just prior to inserting the paddle in the water and lower hips
CB--bring hips forward to paddle as body unbends at hip

Basically, if one twists the torso and hips and lowers hips to maximize reach, as both recommend, and then follows the CB instruction, won't untwisting and unbending both occur at once:  the untwisting energy (vertical axis or rotation) and the hip unbending energy (horizontal axis of rotation)?

LC talks about bringing the hips to the paddle via a hip unbending motion much the same as CB, in his "Exit" instruction video, so one assumes he recommends both methods of using the entire body.

In my own efforts to catch slow waves with a surfy, rockered board, both methods make a HUGE difference in catch percentages.

PS:

Where is the mechanical engineer when you need one?  Why not design a propulsion/paddle system that offers the paddler more leverage?  Long paddle shafts reduce leverage and are almost ineffective for beginners.  There are at least a dozen ways to do this, in concept, that I can visualize.  But then, this could be upsetting for those who love their paddle as is.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: supsurf-tw on August 07, 2016, 10:07:35 AM
One of the differences I've noticed is that with CB's style the entry is not as forward?
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Eagle on August 07, 2016, 02:24:19 PM
Here is vid of Connor in full sprint mode -

https://youtu.be/IyZ3MPpPWgE
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Bean on August 08, 2016, 06:41:41 AM
Reminds me of a skipping-stone...

If my math is right, that works out to an average of 13.55kph/8.47mph in the 200 meter.  I wonder what his top speed was?

When you watch this run in conjunction with Robert's interview you really get a sense for what Connor is saying.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Eagle on August 08, 2016, 09:57:23 AM
Go to 1:10 of this vid and the marketer says "so you will be able to get out on top of the water and plane across it - so in starts that's really key.  You get a nice good start and go 7 - 8 - 9 mph - and plane across the surface of the water".  For Connor that peak GPS speed may be 10 or more for a short distance sprint.  Crazy strength to weight ratio - and power to balance ratio.  If an old man like me with crappy balance can go 7.2 on a 23 AS -> someone like Connor probs can easily go over 10 for a short distance on a 21.5 Sprint.   :o

https://youtu.be/ONCIwwPoDDo
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Beasho on August 08, 2016, 10:56:55 AM
If you want to lose weight EAT FEWER CALORIES.

If you want to go fast INCREASE YOUR STROKES PER MINUTE.

My daughter did a science experiment on efficiency of different paddles.  We used 5 different paddles and 2 paddlers all on a 10' 6" Paddle Surf Hawaii surfing gun, aka slow board.  10 total runs over a 100 meter course. 

I counted Connor @ 92 Strokes over the 200 meters and he only switched his hands twice.  The amazing thing was that my distance per stroke was within 10% of Connors on my fastest runs (2.0 meters vs 2.17 meters for Connor).  I was NOT on a race board, nor have I trained for the past 10 years to be globally competitive.  My daughter's project proved that Strokes/Second was the most impactful measured variable, e.g. most highly correlated with speed.  Connor's distance traveled per stroke, given the massive difference in equipment, technique, physique, 1 start vs. 2 per 100 meters . . . . . was within 10% but his speed was almost 100% faster.   

Conclusion for a Sprint: Whatever gets you to the highest Cadence will maximize your speed.

Here is vid of Connor in full sprint mode -

https://youtu.be/IyZ3MPpPWgE
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Beasho on August 08, 2016, 11:12:01 AM
Sample of video used for test.  Don't bother with the whole thing but you'll get the idea.  Notice how long my daughter takes to switch hands, and how many switches were made over a 100 meter course vs. Connor over 200 meters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndOR6fupCYk
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Chilly on August 08, 2016, 12:01:18 PM
Cool science projects. I remember projects being made with things like Elmer’s glue, straws, and poster board. I wonder what they will be like in another 30 years.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: PonoBill on August 08, 2016, 12:27:42 PM
Mine weren't. I usually started my next science project after the end of the state science fair--worked on it for eight months at least. Tons of major-league competition. The serious nerds did serious projects.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: blueplanetsurf on August 08, 2016, 01:23:12 PM
Back to your original question, although the techniques shown in the videos are somewhat different, they all agree that the hips should come back forward at the end of the stroke, before the paddle exits the water.  Like Larry Cain says, if you reset by bringing the hips forward after the paddle exits the water, you slow your board down during the recovery, when you want to maximize the glide of the board.  You want to have your hips move forward to meet the bottom hand towards the end of your stoke.
 
I like this video of Georges Cronsteadt which shows how the hip movement should create forward momentum at the end of the stroke, resulting in more glide between strokes:
https://www.facebook.com/robertogymtahiti/videos/473010436211879/

Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Luc Benac on August 08, 2016, 02:11:29 PM
Back to your original question, although the techniques shown in the videos are somewhat different, they all agree that the hips should come back forward at the end of the stroke, before the paddle exits the water.  Like Larry Cain says, if you reset by bringing the hips forward after the paddle exits the water, you slow your board down during the recovery, when you want to maximize the glide of the board.  You want to have your hips move forward to meet the bottom hand towards the end of your stoke.
 
I like this video of Georges Cronsteadt which shows how the hip movement should create forward momentum at the end of the stroke, resulting in more glide between strokes:
https://www.facebook.com/robertogymtahiti/videos/473010436211879/

Good post - thank you Robert.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: yugi on August 08, 2016, 02:29:34 PM
^ yes

Except, me, I see hips ending up back, feet forward.

It's all relative. Now I understand why I wasn't getting what LC was saying.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Eagle on August 08, 2016, 03:17:09 PM
If you want to lose weight EAT FEWER CALORIES.

If you want to go fast INCREASE YOUR STROKES PER MINUTE.

Conclusion for a Sprint: Whatever gets you to the highest Cadence will maximize your speed.

It's all relative. Now I understand why I wasn't getting what LC was saying.

^^^

Yeah strokes per minute and how much power is applied on each stroke is key.  That is what I found when I did my GPS sprint tests anyways.

Slow strokes per minute equated to slow speed.  And not 100% power application with not 100% good technique equated to slow speed.  By slow for me - this represents around 0.3 mph slower on peak and average.  I could easily feel the difference between 6.9 mph and 7.2 mph on the water.  6.9 was slow and draggy -> whereas 7.2 felt good and efficient.

Interestingly the speed increase over my set 5 mile course on the 23 AS worked out to around 4.3% faster than my previous fastest time using my 27.5 Dom.  So for me anyways - the narrower board is considerably faster on the ocean in relatively docile ripple conditions.

Do whatever works best for you.   ;)
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Esteroali on August 08, 2016, 03:22:12 PM
Thank you Robert. I think I understand it now. That Facebook post in the gym is a perfect visualization of the drive motion. It is so hard to describe in words, and it seems subtle difference in timing are key to making it work. I get now that the hips need to move forward while the blade is still engaged. Right?
My background is rowing, specifically single sculling. Stroke theory teaches there is no catch or finish to the stroke it's a continuous cycle. It helps me to think of SUP stroke that way also.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Luc Benac on August 08, 2016, 03:54:48 PM
^ yes

Except, me, I see hips ending up back, feet forward.

It's all relative. Now I understand why I wasn't getting what LC was saying.

Hey Yugi,
I was seeing the same thing until the seventh time I watched it and the movement of the hips seems indeed relative to where they start and where they end rather than in absolute relation to the feet. It seems to me that it is a very subtle movement with not necessarily a lot of amplitude. Think yoga rather than full on crunches :-) It does feel like a major contribution of the abs/core to "squeeze" the hips slightly forward.

Cheers,
Luc




Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: blueplanetsurf on August 08, 2016, 04:08:18 PM
Thank you Robert. I think I understand it now. That Facebook post in the gym is a perfect visualization of the drive motion. It is so hard to describe in words, and it seems subtle difference in timing are key to making it work. I get now that the hips need to move forward while the blade is still engaged. Right?
Yes, it is very subtle.  I focus on having the hip come forward to meet the bottom hand at the end of the stroke, and release the paddle where the hip and the hand meet.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: blueplanetsurf on August 08, 2016, 04:16:10 PM
Also, when you look at the video, watch how his hips drive forward in relation to the upper body, while the lower body drives the sled forward.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: mrbig on August 08, 2016, 05:27:51 PM
Mahalos Robert! That FB vid made sense out of a confusing situation..
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Luc Benac on August 08, 2016, 08:18:53 PM
Found another nice post on Seabreeze, a good find by AndyR about Travis Grant technique:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RypY0Kw4qmk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RypY0Kw4qmk)
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Bean on August 09, 2016, 12:06:59 PM
Great vid LB
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Esteroali on August 09, 2016, 12:10:11 PM
Wow more fuel to fire my obsessions over technique! The last video pretty much sums up a comparison of LC and CB.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: mrbig on August 11, 2016, 01:18:34 PM
Thanks Luc! Two threads on technique. Fun. All of the vids and discussions are pointing in a direction!

Niagara Falls, "Slowly I turned, closer and closer, step by step, inch by inch!"
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: devon_sup_surf on August 15, 2016, 01:30:20 AM
I'm pretty new to this- but anyone who lifts weights and has performed the "kettlebell swing" may agree with me it feels similar to this movement. Slight bend in the knees, sitting back a little to load up the hamstrings, and a thrust forwards with the hips whilst contracting the glutes/butt muscles.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Larry on October 18, 2016, 08:06:31 PM
Hi All,

Although this thread hans't been active since August, i'd like to take a stab at explaining my thoughts on hip motion here but it's late and I'm off to bed.  I'll try to get some time to do it in the next week or so.  I've got lots of video of some of the top guys and, in all honesty, I think we're all trying to do the same thing but just end up doing it ways that work best for our own unique shapes, sizes, strengths, weakness and experience. 

I'll poke around in some of the other threads as well and see if there's anywhere I could contribute.  In the meantime, I'd like to post some new video to replace the old one people keep using as an example of my technique.  My technique has evolved over the last 5 years. 

https://vimeo.com/187910139

Happy paddling.

Larry
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Luc Benac on October 18, 2016, 08:20:57 PM
Hi All,

Although this thread hans't been active since August, i'd like to take a stab at explaining my thoughts on hip motion here but it's late and I'm off to bed.  I'll try to get some time to do it in the next week or so.  I've got lots of video of some of the top guys and, in all honesty, I think we're all trying to do the same thing but just end up doing it ways that work best for our own unique shapes, sizes, strengths, weakness and experience. 

I'll poke around in some of the other threads as well and see if there's anywhere I could contribute.  In the meantime, I'd like to post some new video to replace the old one people keep using as an example of my technique.  My technique has evolved over the last 5 years. 

https://vimeo.com/187910139

Happy paddling.

Larry

Perfect Larry, looking forward to your direct contribution.
I have been following all of this since the Connor's video, Travis' and Pukuea's and lately yours on Paddle Monster.
I have been confused but slowly a new stroke is starting to emerge for me but is by no means yet fixed both in my mind and in muscle memory. I do find yours and Travis very compatible.
My only problem is that I should be going a lot faster now :-) but I have seen improvements but small ones....bummer.
Cheers,
Luc
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Esteroali on October 18, 2016, 08:36:20 PM
Waiting with bated breath.
I would to get a video analysis of my stroke from Paddle Monster to clear this issue up. It's been a slight obsession. 
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Area 10 on October 18, 2016, 09:55:01 PM
That latest video from Larry shows a marvellous stroke, but one which looks very tiring. Could the average paddler maintain that for long? Inevitably the focus for Paddle Monster is on racing. But is it the case that the fastest stroke is also the most efficient? If your emphasis for instance was on speed over long distances, or the best speed/energy outlay ratio (eg. for touring), would you still paddle like this? If not, which parts of the stroke would you "de-tune" most?

All of us want to paddle with good technique, but only some of us want to paddle fastest. I think this is where Dave Kalama's old instructions were so appealing to so many of us: the emphasis was on efficiency rather than outright speed, largely because he was concentrating in his own paddling on long distances in inhospitable environments. I noticed that in his commentary for the PPG he returned to this issue, mentioning that the top athletes were so supremely fit that they could get away with techniques that emphasised outright speed rather than having to think about efficiency. They have energy to burn, whereas us lesser mortals are often trying to conserve ours.

Having recently shortened my paddle and improved my catch, I now find that I can go marginally faster. But I can only manage to go about half the distance I could previously before I'm out of gas. The percentage speed gain is much smaller than the percentage of extra energy required. Before, if I raced, I'd prefer long races, but now I'd have to pick ones that are far shorter. I suspect I have swapped speed for efficiency. I'm going consistently faster than ever before, and for (short) racing this is obviously useful. But I'm still not sure how much overall gain I've made given that I only race occasionally. The rest of the time I'm just getting tired quicker, with the GPS showing gains that only I'd really notice.

Maybe all I'm asking for is instruction on how techniques for endurance might differ from short format racing. Presumably in other disciplines there is a difference? Long distance runners don't run like sprinters, although there will be some features that will be shared.

Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Luc Benac on October 18, 2016, 10:15:45 PM
Maybe all I'm asking for is instruction on how techniques for endurance might differ from short format racing. Presumably in other disciplines there is a difference? Long distance runners don't run like sprinters, although there will be some features that will be shared.

Very good point. I am mostly looking at my speed over a few km, indeed with the goal of improving efficiency to be able to paddle 20 km in a shorter time and without been totally knackered. I am not interested on maximum speed on a very short distance per say other than as a proof of a good technique. I have kind of assumed that both were going together and that the same stroke technique would get you there but when listening to Travis Grant he does make a note that his new technique is more demanding and that he reverse to his old one to save energy. I am still hoping to get to a reasonably fast stroke but also effective for a 20 km race/tour. It would be nice to get a clear distinction from experienced paddler like Larry between a "sprinting" stroke and a fast efficient stroke for longer distances.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: pdxmike on October 18, 2016, 11:08:39 PM
Yes, great point.  Looking back on my sports--distance running, then swimming, then standup--what inspired me wasn't seeing people going fast, but seeing people effortlessly gliding along with beautiful, efficient technique. 


One thing to remember, the old Larry Cain video on the river was exactly that--I can't remember another video showing a more effortless (appearing anyway) beautiful stroke that looked like he could continue on with forever. So I'm excited to see Larry's comments.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: yugi on October 19, 2016, 01:05:44 AM
^ exactly

I had a surf-allround board forever while buddies switched to race boards. I had to learn to paddle better. With better technique I do better in long distance. Because it is more efficient. I find short distance one can power away with raw force but less for long distance.

Also long distance your technique becomes more efficient as you train.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Esteroali on October 19, 2016, 04:23:33 AM
Plus....the elephant in the room is age. I am the OP and 55. I have tried working with different technique "gears" according to what body part is failing on that particular day of paddle. Achieving the greatest result with the least effort will save my body the best.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: ukgm on October 19, 2016, 05:30:06 AM

Maybe all I'm asking for is instruction on how techniques for endurance might differ from short format racing. Presumably in other disciplines there is a difference? Long distance runners don't run like sprinters, although there will be some features that will be shared.

Yes and this is a massive difference. It's all about the forces involved as the scale of these can radically change the efficiency or behaviour of a movement. However, most SUP distance events are so long, the forces will remain low so efficiency is your friend (unless you're jumping between drafts and groups). The only exception to this would be something like the Lost Mills 200m sprint event - watch the video's and the technqiues employed aren't sustainable or likely representative of their distance racing.

The other aspect not mentioned here is equipment choice - I would change the set up of paddle, blade type and even fin based on the event length and intensity and these will all affect technique in my view.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: blueplanetsurf on October 19, 2016, 11:13:27 AM
Speed vs. efficiency is a good point.  I have noticed that when I change my technique, I engage different muscles and it takes a lot of training hours to condition the muscles to get used to the new technique.  It takes a while to develop the strength and endurance to maintain the new technique during longer efforts.  So changing to a new stroke technique right before a long distance race is not a good idea.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Luc Benac on October 19, 2016, 01:38:56 PM
Plus....the elephant in the room is age. I am the OP and 55. I have tried working with different technique "gears" according to what body part is failing on that particular day of paddle. Achieving the greatest result with the least effort will save my body the best.

Yes changing stroke has played some tricks on my rotator cuffs on the right shoulder.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: PonoBill on October 20, 2016, 09:31:27 AM
I'm just back from Kalama Kamp Turks & Caicos, and yes, Dave's story these days is all about efficiency. The last day of the technique effort Dave was trying to get my hips engaged, but I had ten new things floating around in my brain and the eleventh wouldn't fit. So that gonna have to wait a while. He DID tell me something I found very effective--practice two new things at a time. So I can probably do hips and insert the paddle or hips and push deep at the same time, but not all the new steps.

Dave needs to do a completely new video, his technique has changed and it's a little bit of Larry and a lot of Dave. He's still pretty insistent about getting the paddle out early. He has two torture devices to reinforce that. I thought I was pretty good at getting the blade out before my heel, but not so! I got to paddle with the stick of shame. felt like I had one of those dog cones on me.

the big change for me is getting the paddle completely pushed down before I start to pull. I thought I was until I saw the video. Yuck. Also proper hingeing. Again, the video was ugly. I looked like I was trying to lay eggs. I have work to do, but I'll get t6here. After day one I felt like I could have greatly improved my finish at the PPG if I had reversed the order. As usual, this will take six months to settle in and I'll need a refresher about halfway.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: headmount on October 20, 2016, 09:42:11 AM
Kathy was explaining that same thing to me last night at my B-day dinner. 
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: supsurf-tw on October 21, 2016, 08:08:50 AM
When capobeachboy delivered my new paddle he had white tape just above the top of the blade. Hmmmmmmm. He said unless that tape is disappearing every time before you start your stroke you're not getting the blade deep enough. This was awesome. You think you're going deep enough but many time you're not. The white tape is a great tool as your peripheral vision can easily see it.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Bean on October 21, 2016, 08:12:47 AM
That's a great tip TW
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: mrbig on October 21, 2016, 08:15:32 AM
Is blue painters tape OK?

Seriously, it was an enormous help especially when going to a higher aspect paddle..
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: Quickbeam on October 21, 2016, 09:10:52 AM
When capobeachboy delivered my new paddle he had white tape just above the top of the blade. Hmmmmmmm. He said unless that tape is disappearing every time before you start your stroke you're not getting the blade deep enough. This was awesome. You think you're going deep enough but many time you're not. The white tape is a great tool as your peripheral vision can easily see it.


Yes, I’ve been doing the exact same thing for some time now (except I use yellow tape). I started using it for two reasons. The first is as you said, so I can easily check to make sure my blade is fully planted before I start to pull. The second is that I sometimes go out on midnight paddles, and I thought if I should ever happen to somehow lose my paddle in the dark, it would be much easier to find it with some yellow tape around it.  ;)
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: mrbig on October 21, 2016, 09:22:47 AM
Bill, Any more info you could pass on regarding hinging? Am also curious as to the amount of leg bending on the push down prior to pulling?
Mahalos,
Cleveland
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: supsurf-tw on October 21, 2016, 11:14:52 AM
Is blue painters tape OK?

 
The blue doesn't have enough contrast to the water.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: mrbig on October 21, 2016, 01:10:25 PM
supsurf-TW, Blue water? Whasszat?? ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: supsurf-tw on October 21, 2016, 04:14:13 PM
supsurf-TW, Blue water? Whasszat?? ;D  ;D
Well if I used pink people'd be talkin'.....
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: mrbig on October 22, 2016, 10:35:32 AM
We are having too much goofiness here! Let's have a lively discussion on Alien Control of the Election, Illuminati, Knights Templar, Sacred Bones, Theodicy, Who or What is really calling the shots.

 Very Interesting, but stupid!
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: PonoBill on October 23, 2016, 09:01:40 AM
Bill, Any more info you could pass on regarding hinging? Am also curious as to the amount of leg bending on the push down prior to pulling?
Mahalos,
Cleveland

Hinge enough to get the paddle down into the water. That's about it. Dave says your knees should be slightly bent all the time. My knees say no.  Watching video of myself I could easily see what Dave was talking about. I was starting to pull as soon as my blade tip hit the water. Because of the angle a paddle enters the water there is thrust available just in pushing the paddle into the water. You'd think I'd be hyper-aware of this since it's the reason I was trying to develop a wing paddle using the same principle as the wing blade for surfskis. I still think it's a good idea, but I digress (surprise, surprise). 

Dave stressed using lower arm extension, shoulder stacking, and a little rotation to extend reach, then get the paddle down into the water with upper hand pressure and hinging. Push the paddle in like shoving a letter into a mailbox and continue pushing down until the blade is fully inserted. The pull is slower then, since the blade is fully loaded and the air is off the blade. No slurping, no vortex, even with a Mana 90. I could hear every time I screwed up. Dave focused on intentionally making the stroke slower by continuing to push down and make the blade travel in an arc. His rationale is that most of the power is in the first half of the stroke, so keep the blade in that efficient area as long as possible.

As you rotate into the stroke you unhinge, so the big muscles of your core do all the pulling. The end of the stroke comes with a little hip thrust, which Dave describes as scooting the board forward, but I think it's more useful for getting my back muscles "reset", like the way I shove my hips forward after standing up to keep my back from tweaking.

Recovery starts at the toes, finishes at the heels with the blade pulled out with the lower hand pushing up on the shaft and breaking inward to feather the blade. He doesn't rush the recovery or try to be asymmetric with blade speed. Not sure that makes sense except in having a smooth flow. Dave is certainly the master flow.

Watching him surf I could see that his stroke to catch a wave was the same as his flatwater stroke--and just as efficient. He was on me for flailing at waves, which is my norm. I slowed down and focused on a good stroke, which got me into good waves, but also got me rolled over the reef a few times. Tough to concentrate on stroke while you're trying to manage a dumping fast wave.  Too many inputs for ADD boy.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: LaPerouseBay on October 23, 2016, 09:45:02 AM
/
Because of the angle a paddle enters the water there is thrust available just in pushing the paddle into the water. You'd think I'd be hyper-aware of this since it's the reason I was trying to develop a wing paddle using the same principle as the wing blade for surfskis. I still think it's a good idea, but I digress (surprise, surprise).



Oy, you and the wing blade idea.  I was incredulous years ago when you mentioned harnessing the wing idea for a single blade. 

You big fat jackass.  Hurry back to Maui so I can set you straight on wings once and for all.  Holy hell PB, Jim Terrell would have done it decades ago.  The assymetry is where wings gain the 10%.  Both sides no can.  Get it?  Didn't think so...  The scoop at the tip is confusing you.  That's irrelevant.  It's the motion in the water. 

I'll borrow a V-8 and put a wing in your hands - on the water.  Just looking at a blade doesn't do it.  You should cross train in a ski anyway with your bad knee.
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: mrbig on October 23, 2016, 11:17:00 AM
Mahalos for your detailed reply! It helps a lot. My initial attempt at the catch from the LC vids looked like a nervous old man trying to place a blade delicately with no splashing.
Sorta worked, but absolutely no power whatsoever needless to say. Progress not perfection. The slight hinge, and knee bend as you described was making a difference.
Allowing the paddle to move in an arc - with power - what a novel concept!

Am also experimenting with a slight shift in pressure to both heels as I am pulling. Seems to help with getting the hips involved. The full C. Baxter escapes me!

Proof of the pudding is in the eating. My next rec race 🏁 with KDOG - PROVIDENCE PADDLE BATTLE SHOUT OUT - is looming. Hafta make sure my DFIB is fully charged!

A great event. Y'all come down ya hear!
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: supsurf-tw on October 23, 2016, 11:39:29 AM
 
 

  Because of the angle a paddle enters the water there is thrust available just in pushing the paddle into the water.


  This x 100. Not just a little thrust, a LOT of thrust. When I started doing this technique for wave catching my wave count more than doubled
Title: Re: Hips and the drive.
Post by: PonoBill on October 23, 2016, 11:40:00 AM
/
Because of the angle a paddle enters the water there is thrust available just in pushing the paddle into the water. You'd think I'd be hyper-aware of this since it's the reason I was trying to develop a wing paddle using the same principle as the wing blade for surfskis. I still think it's a good idea, but I digress (surprise, surprise).



Oy, you and the wing blade idea.  I was incredulous years ago when you mentioned harnessing the wing idea for a single blade. 

You big fat jackass.  Hurry back to Maui so I can set you straight on wings once and for all.  Holy hell PB, Jim Terrell would have done it decades ago.  The assymetry is where wings gain the 10%.  Both sides no can.  Get it?  Didn't think so...  The scoop at the tip is confusing you.  That's irrelevant.  It's the motion in the water. 

I'll borrow a V-8 and put a wing in your hands - on the water.  Just looking at a blade doesn't do it.  You should cross train in a ski anyway with your bad knee.

I get it, but a SUP paddle stroke where the blade is pushed steadily downwards in the power stroke develops some lift in the back of the blade just from the angle of attack. I still think that lift could be optimized with a properly foiled back. If the blade is just pulled back there's little opportunity for lift, but if it's pushed downwards in an arc, there is. I think my mistake was in lack of subtlety. Might never be a worthwhile addition, but it's worth fiddling with.

I'm working on getting skinny Larry. Soon you'll have to settle for just Jackass. If I get rid of enough visceral fat to be able to fold in the middle I'll take you up on that V8 run. See you soon.
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