Standup Zone Forum
General => The Shape Shack => Topic started by: SUPflorida on July 09, 2016, 07:13:11 PM
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Well a few of us have talked about an unlimited "all water board" here on the Zone & over at Seabreeze. Something that is more versatile than a dedicated "flat water" or "downwind" board...something longer than 14 but will still work with a fixed fin. Been toying with the idea of an unlimited for over a year. Almost went unlimited last build but defaulted to 14 instead. supuk starting his 16' downwind board was the final tipping point. Time to make it happen.
Fluctuating between 150 and 170lbs, 16' sounds like a good next step up from 14'. So far I have the rocker & plain shape hot wired out and really like the way it is looking so far.
I can only work on the weekends so it will be a slow build.
Going to try and enjoy the process on this one rather than my typical "put your head down and get it finished."
I'll try to post some pictures as work progresses but I have been having issues trying to upload pictures to the Zone...it doesn't seem to like my IPhone pictures.
If there is no picture here that's why...
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Good luck! Will be very interesting.
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Look forward to seeing what you build, I had problems with uploading pics too, was saying wrong file type and too large from the camera roll but found if I uploaded from the photo stream it was ok.
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Supuk...yup, exactly the error message I get too...
wrong file type....too large....I tried emailing the picture to my self resizing it from full size to medium then uploading it...didn't work...looked on my photo file for "Photo Stream" and it's not on my IPhone 6S+....I believe I use to have that on my old 4S ....but it's not on this one.
I don't have this issue anywhere else on the web. Makes me wonder if it has something to do with that third party pop up that come on screen (only on the zone) from time to time that I never download. With all the I phone users here, and the number of photos posted there must be a simple workaround.
....went back and dumbed the image quality down to 34 K (Small) emailed it to myself and it still wouldn't upload. Error message this time said it won't take JPEG. files. That seems bizarre that a file type used exclusively on one of the most popular smart phones on the planet is not accepted.
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I'm still on a 5s it used to work until I did a update. Not sure why you don't have the photo stream. It is because it calls them a jpeg not jpg I think.
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Yes, just a naming issue.
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Let's try a converted file....
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Gif works
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S/Flo-
That thing looks fast already. Thanks for fighting the jpeg and posting!
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A little progress to day....these shots are all of the bottom...sorry for the upside down and side ways photos...when I convert them to gif files the have a mind of their own....well at least the upside down photo give a right side up view...even if unintentional.
Inside the blue tape lines is a double concave...from the inner tape edge out to the rail is flat.
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Looks great. More of a DW-type shape than I was expecting.
Where are you putting the fin box, and why?
Fin box positions seem to vary wildly on DW-orientated SUPs.
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Area 10....thanks for your comments. Not aming for DW but when you start exceeding 14' and your 150-170 lbs...it seems the only logical place to go with the design is to refine the entry and exit points. This inevitably leads to a pin tail or at least a narrow round or square tail...and a sharper entry. So in that regard length kind of homogenizes plan shape to some extent. Rather a broad statement, but look at the majority of unlimiteds and they seem to fit that pattern.
I have access to the intracoastal waterway a couple blocks from my house and have been pushing my distance...one session up to 30 miles. With all the talk about how much better an unlimited glides in comparison to a 14' I felt it was worth the effort to build a 16'. It will hopefully allow me to cover more distance in the same time, or the same distance in less time.
My approach on this board that sets it apart from the DW offerings will be a flatter rocker line working in conjunction with a piercing nose. I would still like it to function in DB conditions of course, but in the environment it will be used most often, upwind, wind on the quarter, and on the beam in steep chop, DW has to settle for equal billing.
It remains to be seen if this strategy plays out on the water. Any history you may have of someone trying this already and the results they achieved (lessons learned) would be greatly appreciated. The blank is quite flexible longitudinally at this point an rocker adjustments could be made if warrented.
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Forgot to address the fun placement question...I'm planing 15" to the back of a 10" box. I am paying close attention to Supuk's 16' downwinder, interested in hearing his take on fin position after he gets it on the water. Different design objectives for shure, but still the same length.
I'll be making a new fin for this board...the foam/carbon one I made for my 14 worked out well...here is a picture of that one when I was pulling it from potting the base.
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Oh the finished product after approx 370 miles on it and a couple door jamb interactions.
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Looks sweet, I like the double concaves.
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Look forward to seeing what you build, I had problems with uploading pics too, was saying wrong file type and too large from the camera roll but found if I uploaded from the photo stream it was ok.
I had the same problem. Ended up having to convert them to .jpg files on a computer to get them to post. Still can't do it from an iPad or iPhone.
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Look forward to seeing what you build, I had problems with uploading pics too, was saying wrong file type and too large from the camera roll but found if I uploaded from the photo stream it was ok.
I had the same problem. Ended up having to convert them to .jpg files on a computer to get them to post. Still can't do it from an iPad or iPhone.
You don't have to convert the file. You can just edit the extension and drop the "e" from the jpeg. It's as simple as that. You can do it on your iPhone or iPad in certain apps like Dropbox where you have the option to rename.
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SUPFlorida, any updates? Looking forward to more pics and a ride report.
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No progress:
1) it was my wife's birthday week...😘
2) Temperature & Humidity here is rivaling the Amazon Rain Forest.♨️
3) My carbon fiber I had shipped to my "work" house didn't arrive until after I left to go home for the weekend.😁
4) Been doing 12+ hr work days.😖
5) Doing my continuing Ed cases for my contractors license in my "spare time.💤
Etc...etc...
I can please just one person a week...it's not my week...next week is my birthday week... but it doesn't look good either...lol
Bought enough 5.9 carbon twill to do one bottom, two top and a small deck patch, plus a piece of 4.2 oz x4" uni for a strip down the centerline of the bottom. ..just a little extra insurance because of the length.Everything will get topped off with 2.3 oz e-glass for a sacrificial sanding barrier. It also nice for getting the board close to a final finish without using excessive filler or resin.
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SUPFlorida-
No worries, and my respect for going after a board while being so busy.
Hot and humid here right now too, forecast is calling for a break this weekend.
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Laminated...tried to post picture...converted picture to every format on the accepted list...that no longer works either...👎
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i think there was some issue with file extension names. Try change to .jpg or something.
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(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/peanuts/images/1/1f/Charliebrown-1-.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130411035507)
Looking forward to seeing the pictures.
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...plus a piece of 4.2 oz x4" uni for a strip down the centerline of the bottom. ..just a little extra insurance because of the length.
Anyone want to discuss the merits of a strip of uni on the bottom vs an extra layer of twill or plain weave on the rails?
I'm thinking an extra layer on say the middle eight feet of the rails is stronger because of the "C" profile shape of the rail approximating the classic "I-beam". I would think that a strip of uni on the bottom will just be super flexible.
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Backeye...I already have three full layers of carbon, two top (lapped 3" on bottom), one bottom (3" lap on deck). I felt more comfortable putting the 4.2 oz uni down the bottom centerline over the full layer of carbon twill. The top laminate is twice as strong & stiff as the bottom. The 4.2 uni give just a bit more centerline strength to the bottom .
Don't think of the uni as a a single layer with its associated flex...think of your I beam with the deck being the top of the beam, the core being the web, the bottom being the bottom of the beam. It's the distance the top and bottom laminated are from each other that makes the I beam effect.
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Routed for fin box...sorry about the quality of the picture...nothing like the original...had to dumb it down to 10% for the zone to accept it.
The left edge of the longer piece of blue masking tape denotes the boards centerline, so if something looks a bit off that's there is your answer.
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Slick! Smart! Use the extra length at the pointy ends. That would be a fast 14 (imagining it without the last 2’) with an extra tail end tagged on. Which makes it more efficient sliding on the water.
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Thanks Yugi...we are on the same wavelength...and yes a couple of times I almost wacked off the last 26-1/2" to make it a 14'... My rocker line stayed exactly what I was going for (1" nose , 3-1/4" tail) so it will be interesting to see how it pans out. Coming in at 23lbs 10oz so far. I was shooting for 29lbs all up (or less) with pad & fin... Got a ways to go yet...so final weight TBD.
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Looks fast. 1" in the nose is pretty flat. Definitely and flat water board. Let us know how it goes.
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^^ the more we DW the quicker we get at keeping the tip from diving.
New DW racey boards are surprisingly low rocker. Yet manageable (if you are fast). Take a peek at the Naish Maliko.
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Okay, so I took a look at the New Naish Maliko. I watch a few videos because you sparked my curiosity:) It has DW rocker in the nose. The bulbous noses are rounded side to side which acts as additional nose rocker even though the center line has less. On the Maliko, even the center line looks to have a good amount of rocker.
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It will be interesting to see how this rocker plays out. My 14 has a lot more nose rocker, but when the close period chop gets a foot high or more it pierces through it rather than ridding over it anyway.
I'm banking on 3-1/4" of tail rocker and a a narrow (read easily immersed) tail outline to accomplish my objective. Very easy to go overboard with nose rocker. When taken too far it pushes water ahead of the board and offers a larger profile to the wind, neither of which I want.
Remember my statement of purpose, Inter-island downwind runs are not on my agenda nor is it a design consideration for this build.
This board will hopefully allow greater speed and ease of recreational distance paddling. For the most part confined to the Intra-coastal waterways of East Coast of Florida where paddling up wind/cross wind are equal to, or of greater importance than downwind. Yes it's usually choppy...not infrequent....ridiculously so. But it is not open ocean Pacific swells by any stretch of the imagination. So why design/build with that in mind?
Here is photo of deck before seal an laminate:
Photo of bottom after laminating:
The theory is in flatter water the front half of the board will present a very flat/straight rocker line. As the water gets rougher, moving back will take advantage of the tail rocker and narrow tail outline.
The front of the board gives a long gradual transition instead of plowing (excessive nose scoop). What it can't go over, it will go through with (hopefully) minimal resistance. I am banking on the 16'-2-1/2" length to allow the nose to be cantilevered up without causing the forward motion to stall as it might be the case on a shorter board.
Although not apparent in the photos, thickness has been kept rather thin at 5-3/4" to keep cross wind effect to a minimum. Something our friends across the pond have learned, confirmed by my own experience.
So at this point it's well reasoned conjecture on my part...the water will be the crucible where it is proven or dismissed. Interested in what zoners have experienced first hand... as there is often a dissconect between theory and reality.
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From the conditions you describe it should be very fast. Nothing wrong with water over the bow as long as you are maintaining speed. Unlimiteds punch through the chop better than any 14'. You'll find it a little tippy with less rocker but the speed will make up for it:) Next thing you'll be thinking, "what if I made an 18' or 19' board". More speed. The extra tail rocker will just reduce your overall waterline in flat water. Narrower tails are a whole discussion in themselves. My 18'r has about 2 1/2" of rocker in the nose and 1 3/4" in the tail. The nose is so sharp it punches through chop effortlessly. I could probably gone less rocker and not noticed much difference.
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Thanks for your insight TallDude. I'm hoping that the decent tail rocker and flatter forward rocker will allow me to position myself a little farther back without dragging the tail.
I remember you talking about the flatter rocker taking away some stability and it was probably the tipping point in my going 25-1/2 wide.Thats the only thing I' have reservation about....that I may have made it a touch too wide...my 14' is 26" wide and super stable for me....so I went back and forth with making it 24" instead of 25-1/2" but I thought the extra 1-1/2" could be helpful when conditions go to crap...which is very likely on a 6 to 9 hr paddle in Florida. The expression is if you don't like the weather just wait 5 min and it will change.
Isn't your unlimited a pin tail? Haven't seen a picture of it for awhile...
As to going longer...at my size I'm wonder if it would be diminishing returns...i'll have a better idea when I get this one on the water.
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Width can be misconstrued as a general figure that defines the stability of a board. My unlimited goes from a sharp point to a point that is 25" under foot and back to a 4" or so wide tail. You can't pivot turn it. It doesn't want to turn period. In no wind I can paddle it on one side around 20 times without going off course. Other shorter race boards that are 23 or 24" wide but have wide square tails are going to be very stable compared to my 18'r. Add a flat bottom, more rocker and they become very stable. My 14' x 28" get wide pretty quick in the nose and carries the 28" width for at least 2 and a half feet.The tail is wide with probably 3" of rocker. It feels like a touring barge compared to my 3" narrower unlimited. It races like one too. But hey, it surfs pretty good.
A lot of the earlier stand-up racers were very fast on unlimiteds. And they were not big guys. It's a must to be competitive as a big guy.
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Thanks for your insight TallDude. I'm hoping that the decent tail rocker and flatter forward rocker will allow me to position myself a little farther back without dragging the tail.
I remember you talking about the flatter rocker taking away some stability and it was probably the tipping point in my going 25-1/2 wide.Thats the only thing I' have reservation about....that I may have made it a touch too wide...my 14' is 26" wide and super stable for me....so I went back and forth with making it 24" instead of 25-1/2" but I thought the extra 1-1/2" could be helpful when conditions go to crap...which is very likely on a 6 to 9 hr paddle in Florida. The expression is if you don't like the weather just wait 5 min and it will change.
Isn't your unlimited a pin tail? Haven't seen a picture of it for awhile...
As to going longer...at my size I'm wonder if it would be diminishing returns...i'll have a better idea when I get this one on the water.
I got to say my dw 16 is crazy stable at 24.5 and will go to at least 23 next time however it is low volume and has rocker.
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Supuk any tips on how you do your carbon handles? Looks like you used a fishing net float for a mold plug...I have an extra FCS handle, but those aren't so hot, even for a small wave board. They get narrower in the center biting into my knuckles. Sad they have the manufacturing ability....distribution channels and that's the best design they can come up with.
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Thanks for your insight TallDude. I'm hoping that the decent tail rocker and flatter forward rocker will allow me to position myself a little farther back without dragging the tail.
I remember you talking about the flatter rocker taking away some stability and it was probably the tipping point in my going 25-1/2 wide.Thats the only thing I' have reservation about....that I may have made it a touch too wide...my 14' is 26" wide and super stable for me....so I went back and forth with making it 24" instead of 25-1/2" but I thought the extra 1-1/2" could be helpful when conditions go to crap...which is very likely on a 6 to 9 hr paddle in Florida. The expression is if you don't like the weather just wait 5 min and it will change.
Isn't your unlimited a pin tail? Haven't seen a picture of it for awhile...
As to going longer...at my size I'm wonder if it would be diminishing returns...i'll have a better idea when I get this one on the water.
Here is my current 18' unlimited and an old 16' Infinity I race back in 2009. It had a front steering ventral fin. Notice the strap handle on my 18' board. Just two leash plugs and a nylon flat strap between. It's worked great for a few years now.
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Supuk any tips on how you do your carbon handles? Looks like you used a fishing net float for a mold plug...I have an extra FCS handle, but those aren't so hot, even for a small wave board. They get narrower in the center biting into my knuckles. Sad they have the manufacturing ability....distribution channels and that's the best design they can come up with.
I made a wood plug that I lay up over and then vac bag.
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Ah...I'm thinking your plug was probably CNC cut too....I love to have that capability... :P
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first one wasn't but the second one was although it tock a lot of hand finishing as I dint get a very good finish.
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Need a quick answer...cleaning up last nights fin box install...and want to set the twin leash plugs...Question?....Leash plug location....standard tail location ok? Or does a 16+ board work better with a different primary location? Wondering what kind ( if any issues) are created if the leash attachment point is anywhere other than within 8" of the tail...supuk...what did you set yours at ?, looks like maybe 24" up from tail. Are you Happy with your placement? and if not what would you do different? Talldude, PonoBill what's your preference on leash locations for unlimited's?
Seems like the SIC boards have it very close to tail.
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16" for me I gave it some thought, didn't want to be standing on it. Have not had any problems were it is
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Thanks...
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Picture of deck fill coat, ended up not using the Blue Planet handle not that it was bad....just preferred the carbon handle I made up myself.
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Looking good!
You have a little film noir thing going in those last two photos.
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Rough sand of deck...
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..from the nose...laying over a bit to the left side (double concave sitting on step stool)...
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Great! I'll be fascinated to see the waterline when the board is resting unloaded in flat water.
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Area10 I tried to get a broadside shot so the subtlness of the rocker could be seen...but there is lot of stuff in the background to throw off the eye...
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Looking forward to seeing how it 'runs out', it sure looks fast!
Adding any color?
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I don't see color in my future...but I might end up sanding a little more of the white off than my last couple builds...tbd 8)
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Area10 I tried to get a broadside shot so the subtlness of the rocker could be seen...but there is lot of stuff in the background to throw off the eye...
Thanks, yeah it's very hard to show rocker in a picture. It doesn't look like you have much there. It will be great to see it in the water. You must be very excited.
And I quite like white boards. Much cooler. Easier to repair. Looks clean, and no-nonsense.
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Finally ready to go. 30.75 lbs including pad, fin & waist leash... I was shooting for less than 30....
Question...when the manufacturers publish board weights what are they including?
Pad?
Fin?
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Generally:
Yes pad
No fin
Never leash.
Seems like you've got a respectable weight there for a board that size.
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Rocker shot...unloaded...I was by myself so no photos loaded.
Interesting that on my other boards the heels of my feet are approx 12" forward of handle. On this board the toes of my feet are approx 12" aft of the handle.
I'm going to reserve comment until I get a couple more sessions on it.
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Definitely paddle it a lot before passing judgement. There will be condition that it shines in, and vise versa. Trying to achieve a perfect "all water" board is sort of like looking for the holy grail.
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Any update on how this board is performing? It looks awesome.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Everything turned out the way I wanted...outline, rocker, volume, stability...and I love the look...but have come to the conclusion that the "super size" paddling community mesmerized me with the thought that length was going to translate to more speed...or easier to maintain a higher pace with the same effort. Coming in between 150 & 175 depending on the time I have to exercise...this is not the case.
After about 8 sessions on the 16 in a various mix of conditions, from glass to 20 mph head winds with knee high close period chop, I went back to my 14. First stroke said it all...the feeling was instant and undeniable that the 14' was a better fit for me, I am convinced if I was bigger/stronger or younger the potential is there in the 16...but I'm not...It is what it is. As Pono Bill would say, I don't have the beans to push it...
I had to try for myself, I would have always wondered if I wouldn't have followed through with the build...now I'm satisfied that it's all about what fits you... as an individual...and not anyone else. Kia or Connor could jump on it and make it fly...but I'm about 40 years to late to that party...lol
I now know my most enjoyable size board is not over 14'...and with my next build I'm not going to worry about "maximizing water line length" At my size/weight/age a little extra board out of the water at the nose & tail is not going to make a hill of beans except to let it perform better in a wider range of conditions.
So I have a 25-1/2 x 16'-2-1/2"'inch all carbon board that's looking for someone who can unlock its potential ...need to finance my next build...pm me if interested.
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So I have a 25-1/2 x 16'-2-1/2"'inch all carbon board that's looking for someone who can unlock its potential ...need to finance my next build...pm me if interested.
Florida is just way too far from Western Canada or I would have taken a drive to try it :-)
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Beautiful weather here this time of year 😏Just a couple blocks away from a nice sand beach Interacoastal launch site (Ft.Pierce)...just saying...