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General Category => Foil SUP => Topic started by: supuk on February 07, 2016, 09:56:46 AM

Title: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 07, 2016, 09:56:46 AM
As of yet I haven't had the chance to get my hands on a foil to try and I could not afford the cost of buying one so I thought I best get on with making something. I have had a little look around the Internet and it seams like a fare few have been made for  kiting so how hard can it be?

The mast I have made by hot wireing a xps core then vac bagging it with carbon the  fuselage is made from a old windsurf mast. I have been experimenting a bit on how to do the foils at the moment I'm going for a laminated ply core which I will then bag in carbon. 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 07, 2016, 10:53:49 AM
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Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: 808sup on February 07, 2016, 10:54:58 AM
I will be watching your progression. I've been kiting for years and recently aquired a foil board . I had been thinking ok making my own as well. I have a sheet metal background and thought ... How hard can it be?. Well, after reading others who have made their own I decided to put making one on hold. It looks simple enough but I there are issues to consider. Seems the forces on the mast cause many to flex and break. The fuselage can flex as well. The wings have very different characteristics depending on their size,shape,and relationship to each other. I have often thought of the feasibility of using foils on a downwind board. Good luck and keep the pics.coming.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 07, 2016, 11:18:29 AM
I'm sure there is a lot to learn but only one way to do that in my world. When you see some of the diy builds the kite guys have done they are fairly crude so will have to see. Im not worried about the fuselage that is super stiff the mast i am going to add a little more carbon to, the foil I'm going to go with a flat bottom section i think on the front, i have not decided on the rear yet. the rear foil will have some way to change the incidence but yet to be decided how. If any one has a kite foil i would be keen to see some close up pics as to what foils they are using on the wings. if this works i will definitely try it on a larger board dw!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blackeye on February 08, 2016, 07:43:18 AM
Could your CNC machine make the foil shape core in HD foam or plywood or make a set of forms in MDF?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 08, 2016, 09:30:43 AM
Could your CNC machine make the foil shape core in HD foam or plywood or make a set of forms in MDF?

yes quite possibly however my cad skill out side of shape 3d are not there at the moment.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: jrandy on February 08, 2016, 11:09:58 AM
Charlie, let me know if I can ever work something up (foil to be made from foam). It's be fun to get a file to run remotely for you. Looking forward to seeing the results from this build. -J
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 08, 2016, 01:02:01 PM
Charlie, let me know if I can ever work something up (foil to be made from foam). It's be fun to get a file to run remotely for you. Looking forward to seeing the results from this build. -J

Cheers many thanks i have been trying to find a local course to learn a 3D package but not had any luck finding one yet and Video tutorials done work that well for me. It would be nice to find a program with intergrated cam as I have only played with a few trial ones to do some very basic stuff.  It would defiantly be easier to mold the hole bottom part in one !
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blackeye on February 08, 2016, 08:35:34 PM
What kind of files does your CNC run on?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 08, 2016, 11:41:21 PM
the cnc is running on mach3 so i believe it will take quite a few .Tap .Txt .Nc .Ncc are the ones i know of. I normally use .tap
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on February 09, 2016, 10:07:18 AM
Nice work. I don't try to do complex stuff here on Maui, too hard to get materials, too many other things to do, but foils are part of my plan for this summer.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: peterp on February 09, 2016, 10:34:37 AM
I have often thought of the feasibility of using foils on a downwind board. Good luck and keep the pics.coming.

I'm with you on this one - I would love to explore the possibilities of downwind foiling - it could be dwd nirvana of endless glides. SO I have started trying to learn how to foil with a kite, looks simple enough.....but there are many schoolfees to be paid and living in a place where it either doesn't blow (rarely) or hits min 25knots (mostly) progress is slow.....KEEP US POSTED!!!!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on February 09, 2016, 06:29:18 PM
Am I crazy to think that a model airplane or glider wing from foam would work? Glass it up and go? I'm pretty sure that'd be the fastest way to play around.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: jrandy on February 09, 2016, 07:50:06 PM
Not crazy. The RC airplane folks do some fancy stuff with foil templates and hot wires.

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 09, 2016, 11:47:07 PM
I used to do a lot of rc glider stuff which is the only realy thing I'm using to help me guess my way through this. The mast i did like a foam wing using mylars in the cores and vac bagged. The problem with the foam is when it's very thin cores you need a lot of carbon or glass to get the strength so for prototypeing I think the wood will actually be a little better and cheaper to test.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on February 10, 2016, 06:33:02 PM
I can totally see doing wood for tests. Good call.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 02, 2016, 11:41:57 AM
Got side tracked again and stoped work on this but got inspired again today after seeing a kite foil on the beach so shaped anouther ply foil today after not being happy with the last then being sat night I thought I would do a lazy mans vac bag around it and got it in the warm as the misses is away for the weekend. I'm determined to get this done soon. Just realy have the tail plane to do and make a mold to put the Tuttle box head on the mast which I haven't quite figured just yet
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPsports on April 02, 2016, 12:50:43 PM
I've seen the pain outweigh the gain with foil kiting...especially, trying to do it with rocks, kelp, and big animals in the water...;-)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 02, 2016, 01:35:14 PM
luckily we don't suffer from any of those round here just big wide open stretch of shingle/sand beaches and a small bit of seaweed in the summer at the most so pretty lucky unfortunately we do suffer from a big lack of ground swell which is where having lots of other toys help.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 03, 2016, 03:57:19 AM
Top sanded and bottom glassed then flipped with plastic film and hot coated at the same time ... Speed build!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on April 03, 2016, 08:37:18 AM
Love the fast flip for prototyping. I need to do that on fins. Did you wait for initial cure to a tacky finish?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 03, 2016, 09:35:35 AM
No flip it when wet it's better to use Mylar than plastic for flat surfaces but didn't plan to originally do it this way which is what I have just done. What I would have been better to do was do the flat bottom first on Mylar and then glass the top after which is what I have just done on the tail. This is a full on garage hack build trying to do it fast as posable and keeping it super simple.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 04, 2016, 05:14:43 AM
Foils done prity much now to make a mould to cast a deep Tuttle on the mast.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 04, 2016, 12:28:09 PM
Gives a bit of a idea it's rather crude and not super prity but hopefully I will learn something from this.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: peterwSUPr on April 05, 2016, 04:04:00 AM
Is your fuselage a paddle shaft?  I wonder if where you cut into it to mount the strut (mast) if that might be your weakest link (if it did not get beefed up).  I'm just getting started on my kite foil now, but from the reading I've done that is one of the high stress areas, and your wing centre of lift is a fair way ahead of the strut.  Maybe a few more carbon layers on the front of the fuselage?  On a windsurf foil they have to put the wing forward like that if using the standard tuttle box, but on kiteboards where they mount further forward on the board they have the wing close to the strut to reduce the forces on the fuselage at the front of the strut

Peter
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 05, 2016, 04:19:26 AM
The  fuz is actually a old rdm windsurf mast which I have allso beefed up with a second layer of mast around that the mast will defiantly break before the fuz which is leading me to beefing up the mast with a bit more carbon as it has a bit more twist than I would like so will do a few more layers at 45deg. My plan in to install a new deep Tuttle in the boards where ever needed as stock ones will probably not be strong enuff anyway which is why I'm just making a mold to make a few.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Admin on April 05, 2016, 06:04:10 AM
I am very impressed by you, dude.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 05, 2016, 07:00:49 AM
Two extra layers of carbon on the 45 and two of glass per side for a little more strength hopefully it won't snap to quickly
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: peterwSUPr on April 05, 2016, 09:46:26 AM
Ah, RDM mast that should be beefier than what I thought.  How much carbon do you have on either side of the mast and what fibre orientation?  Mine is going to have about 50 oz per yard of carbon on each side, half unidiretional, half biax, and no plain weave so no fibres along with the chord.  Of course I don't know how stiff it is yet!  From my reading though, hopefully that should be about right.

Are you glassing the wings on directly or is there a way to bolt/screw them on?  It would be good to at least be able to vary the angle of attack on the rear wing.

Peter
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 05, 2016, 10:29:03 AM
I cant remember how much I have used now but there was a good few layers of 200g uni and then a few plain running at 45 deg tbh it is just what ever off cuts I have had lying around I havnt purchased anything for it but some biax probably would be worth it I will see how it is after what I have done is cured.

the plan is to have them bolt down and then have come shims for the rear to change the incidence of the rear, going with what I know from flying I will probably try 2-3 deg I haven't seen any mention of numbers anywhere? 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: peterwSUPr on April 05, 2016, 07:53:11 PM
I think you can start with the rear at zero, based on my conversation with a guy who's built a few.  Is your front wing going under the fuselage?  That's the most common setup.  My foil is on hold because I might see a few in a few weeks in Hatteras and get some ideas, and my ice just went out and I won't be riding it (swimming a lot) any time soon!  Hatteras is also too shallow in many spots.  On lighter days I'll suppin the ocean side.

Peter
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 06, 2016, 08:19:47 AM
No at the moment for ease of build i put it on top. I will start with zero then and have some shims ready.

If this works at all I will think about a mk2 and maybe make some moulds up for things like the mast and fuz to improve them a little.

I have just popped the mould for the head and just laying up a fin box, this bit is painfully slow to do and yet being so close to finishing.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 06, 2016, 11:20:01 PM
Just tested the mast after the extra layers and it is super stiff now in flex and torsion so realy happy and prity sure it won't be snapping any time soon!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on April 06, 2016, 11:29:06 PM
Man, you are getting close. I also love that it's all off cuts and extras. This is a pretty sweet build for a "mock up."

Have you seen DW's foil yet?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 06, 2016, 11:54:20 PM
yea nearly there I started to lay up a fin box yesterday and now just got to figure how to cast the head onto the mast perfectly straight which is probably going to be the hardest part! Yea it is literally all of cuts even the resin was a load that I was given free to test out the mast was a old broken one I was give, its like the scrap heap challenge of foils.

No not seen dw's
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: getcarter on April 07, 2016, 12:47:19 AM
Charlie,

How did you make that Tuttle mould? I want to make one for FCS heads. Made one using vac formed ploy vinyl but was almost too small to get an effective cast from

Cheers

GC
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 07, 2016, 12:57:37 AM
just molded off a standard fin. you will probably find it easier to just cut fcs in as they are small and simple and for the strength you would need to mold the hole fin in one go
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: getcarter on April 07, 2016, 04:52:57 AM
Yeah I know...its just I've got loads of fins that are screw in that I wanted to make adapters for and cutting them out alters the original fin.

GC
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 08, 2016, 12:40:20 PM
Slow progress waiting for stuff to fully cure it's still only 10deg here during the day but Moulded a fin box and pored the head on the mast which I'm hoping is stright all fingers crossed! So with any luck I just need to sort the fixings for the foils and bolt them up and then put a fin box in to a board. I have allso manged to pick up a old freeride windsurf board to stick a extra fin box in to give it a try on which should be interesting
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 09, 2016, 12:20:23 AM
Couldn't wait to crack open the mould this morning! And luckily it worked great for the hack that it is just hope it on fairly stright which it should be.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: DW on April 09, 2016, 03:59:32 PM
I didn't make my foil. I only made the special board. I used the Horue foil from France.

I decided not to get into blade building yet, due to foil design still being in its infancy.  I was afraid it would turn into an R&D money pit.

We have about 20-30 kiters foiling here. I've see so many wildly different ideas on what the blades should look like. I've also heard from guys who've ridden many of the designs, that some completely blow others out of the water in performance.

My wife foiled today on it for the first time. You can see the photos on my site. SupSURFmachines.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on April 11, 2016, 12:45:02 AM
dw i noticed you had your fin box fairly well back i assume thats because of the forward sweep of the horue? pics look great i didn't realise your in fl. I'm supposed to be over that way in a june to see faimiy and a mini stag do
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: DW on April 11, 2016, 04:04:15 AM
dw i noticed you had your fin box fairly well back i assume thats because of the forward sweep of the horue?

Yes, the Horue is designed to work in any production windsurf board as-is.

It's the best approach for any foil company. You can sell more foils if they work in your board. What most others are doing (needing Tuttle in middle of board) is just lazy design work.

Of course, you never really know how well that production board is going to hold up to the loads. You can assume if your production board came with the deep Tuttle box, it was probably built to handle massive fins.

Many modern boards have the Tuttle screws recessed below the deck, making the box too shallow. Older boards, like ProTechs might work.

It was easiest for me to just make a board with deep Tuttle installed super strong.

FYI it looks like Neil Prydes foil will also be plug and play in any stock production board with deep box.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 02, 2016, 08:28:26 AM
Well Kai got there first but he didn't have to make it from scratch! I won't be to far behind, If I had been given one I would have tried it a long time ago! We don't have much in the way of a forcast coming but will get it on the water one way or anouther this week!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: stoneaxe on May 02, 2016, 10:21:57 AM
Looks awesome...nice work
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Area 10 on May 02, 2016, 10:33:02 AM
Very, very interesting. Make sure you get some footage of you heading into Shoreham Harbour on that ;)

What is that board you are attaching it to?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 02, 2016, 11:07:00 AM
Yea the harbour could be great in the winter when the tide is two high for it to break. At the moment it's just on a windsurf board I picked up for £25 which I will test it on with ether a sail or behind a cable ski,boat or with a paddle then from there I guess I may need to try and find a race board to chop down or something
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on May 02, 2016, 07:46:47 PM
Man, you are almost there!

I can't wait for the ride report. I'm curious what it will take to get it in the air.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil fly's
Post by: supuk on May 08, 2016, 09:48:46 AM
Still waiting for wind and waves here so the cable ski was the next best thing to test on. The lagoon is a little on the shallow side and all sorts of ropes holiding the sliders in place so not much room but I got up on the foil first run and every run after that so it defiantly works, I will be put a box in a race board next or maybe building a specific board to try paddleing with it. Fingers crossed the wind swings and we get a few waves soon! Pics to follow
Title: Re: Diy sup foil fly's
Post by: supuk on May 08, 2016, 10:43:58 AM
here you go a garage hack of a foil with zero calculations and all made from scrap and off cuts.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Area 10 on May 08, 2016, 11:03:12 AM
Congratulations! That's really great. Well done, looks like huge fun. How difficult would it be to control without the benefit of an overhead tow?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 08, 2016, 11:39:11 AM
Hard to say I think being able to control speed myself may make things a little easier allso having more room would help the cable wasn't doing much other than providing the speed there was very little power needed to get up on the foil
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: 808sup on May 08, 2016, 11:41:02 AM
Windsurf board . That's my plan for my downwind foiling experiment . Still sourcing a suitable board.
Keep up the good work! BTW did you hit one of those ramps? 😉
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 08, 2016, 11:52:07 AM
Yea the windsurf board was only $40 so was the cheapest test subject. I didn't hit the slider but I did hit the ropes holding them down underwater and made for a sudden stop!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: 808sup on May 08, 2016, 12:09:44 PM
Yeah I've noticed that when I fall foiling it is very abrupt.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 08, 2016, 11:39:49 PM
Yea I'm wondering if it need to be quite so high it feels prity darn high when your all the way up and it doesn't feel like there is a in between point I think I'm some were around 900mm-1meter up
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Kaihoe on May 08, 2016, 11:54:20 PM
I'm just blown away at your skill. Hey I know let build some new tech out of stuff I've got lying around. Awesome work
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 09, 2016, 12:38:22 AM
cheers if i could do that all day long i would be a happy person its always  good to make something out of nothing.

The question is now what board to go for? full on race board for maximum paddle speed, a all water semi dw style board a low rocketed dw board or full on dw board!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Area 10 on May 09, 2016, 12:51:40 AM
I'd go for something that will "crash well". You don't want a foiled board doing loops in the sky at the end of your leash in 35 knots. Plus you need to be able to get back on it easily and get going. Maybe it will need a wider board than you usually make?

I do wonder whether foil SUP downwinding is going to be possible in the shallow short period stuff we get round here. But you are a pioneer and if anyone can make it work, you can. It really is wonderful that you have just knocked up something in your back garden and got it working first time.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 09, 2016, 01:02:11 AM
im not sure if it will work on the short suff on the harbour runs but it think the worthing or selsey run should be good. We will soon find out! at the moment I'm thinking maybe a 24 or 25 wide all water to give enough stability and enough speed or maybe a low rockerd 12' dw board or scarp that and maybe even try a old school classic round nose surf style board
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Area 10 on May 09, 2016, 04:05:20 AM
Yeah you may need to invent an entirely new shape altogether for this. Maybe fairly flat rocker through most of the board but with lots of nose rocker. Kinda like the rocker on the Mk1 Glide 14 or JL Albatross, but maybe with more volume. I dunno... You aren't going to want to come down and plough the nose for sure, and if a steep bump starts to lift your tail, you aren't going to want to be engaging in lots of fancy footwork at that point...hmm... It's gonna require some thought for sure!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil done now for the board!
Post by: supuk on May 09, 2016, 09:39:13 AM
I think this is going to be the plan which is a flat deck version of my 12'6 x 24. allwater design. I cant quite decide on length right now, maybe start of at 12'6 and cut it down from there. It going to be a matter of finding that balance of speed of paddling to get it on the foil as I expect there will be a fair amount of time spent not flying and and reducing swing weight and mass it has to carry.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 09, 2016, 10:29:24 AM
In the ghetto style I though I would use up all the scrap blocks of eps I had kicking around to make a blank so using pu foam glue they are all stuck together before hotwireing to size to machine.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: clay on May 09, 2016, 04:05:49 PM
cheers if i could do that all day long i would be a happy person its always  good to make something out of nothing.

The question is now what board to go for? full on race board for maximum paddle speed, a all water semi dw style board a low rocketed dw board or full on dw board!

Awesome and amazing!  Well done!  I hope you find a way to do this all day long.

I have put down a deposit on the gofoil and I have the same question of what board to use?

Does the foil add stability, in that we can use a narrower really tippy board?

And nose?  A penetrator that minimizes the abruptness of a pearl?  Or a really upturned nose that can't pearl?  Or a bulbous high volume nose that skips/bounces/rebounds when it hits the water?

Appreciate any feedback
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 09, 2016, 11:58:56 PM
It's hard to say as I was only using a windsurf board but I'm prity sure we are going to need something with some width as it causes other problems The way I see it at the moment is the harder part is be going to be geting it on foil so I have gone for speed and stability over prity much everything. If you take a nose dive at 10-15 knots I think it's rather going to send you way out the front or it will bounce back up through surface area. Maybe I will try it on the new 21.5 any way until I get this new one done.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 10, 2016, 12:48:14 PM
Well I have the cnc cutting the blank now and I have allso managed to get a company to send me one of there kite foils to test which apparently is very good at low speeds so will have something for a comparison.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: jrandy on May 10, 2016, 04:08:36 PM
Looking good Charlie! I like the tinkering and the recycled foam.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: stoneaxe on May 10, 2016, 05:45:22 PM
It's fun watching you hack Charlie. You remind me of my brother.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: TallDude on May 10, 2016, 09:07:58 PM
You are the R&D master. Charlie's chitty chitty bang bang garage.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: 808sup on May 10, 2016, 09:14:06 PM
I have to agree with stoneaxe. It is fun to see the progress day by day. That cnc machine is amazing. Keep the pics. coming as I can't wait to see it finished and hear how it works.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 11, 2016, 12:46:02 AM
You are the R&D master. Charlie's chitty chitty bang bang garage.

fun thing is the chap that made all the chitty chitty bang bang gizmos (Roland Emett) actually only lived a few doors down the road and my dad actually helped him make some of the props for the original film. There was actually a exhibition of his machines at the local museum recently and my dad and myself had to go down and help look after them while they were on display.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Area 10 on May 11, 2016, 06:37:32 AM
Priceless, Charlie. Absolutely priceless. I'm imagining Chitty Chitty Bang Bang up on hydrofoils now...
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: stoneaxe on May 11, 2016, 07:02:18 AM
Very cool connection.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 11, 2016, 01:16:13 PM
Few pics from this eve, chopping in a HD block of xps for the foil box to mount in and cutting back the joints in the eps to allow for final sanding. Having the joints in the eps does not effect the strength of the board and by cutting them back and spackeling over them they are almost invisible. The board is now all spakled and after 24h I will final sand it and start glassing. I have ended up going for 11ft as the final length.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: stoneaxe on May 11, 2016, 05:43:36 PM
What made you decide on 11'?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: jrandy on May 11, 2016, 06:33:19 PM
Wow...two days from design to spackle. I am impressed and jealous. Nice work Charlie!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 12, 2016, 10:23:19 AM
Still on track! I'm realy keen to get it done by early next week as I will only have a week to test it before a 10 day trip to Florida. Got the bottom glassed this eve, went for a bit of a different layup to keep the nose light and the strength around the foil and still fairly stiff. Will do a full coat later tonight then get on to the deck tomorow eve.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 12, 2016, 03:26:37 PM
Few last bits from today a fill coat on the flat and started to lay up the Tuttle box on the new mould.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Bean on May 12, 2016, 09:07:38 PM
That wide squared off tail looks like it will jump on plane really well.  It reminds me a bit of the tail on my Jav which surfs like a Simmons shape.

I was wondering why Kai's tail has its corners clipped and can only imagine that it's to reduce the effect of drag when the tail dips down.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 13, 2016, 12:23:43 PM
Deck laminated this eve and poped the fin box of the mould, unfortunately my tolerances were a bit tight and I think I may need to ether do anouther or maybe modify it a bit.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: DW on May 13, 2016, 03:31:52 PM
Where in Florida? I'm in Florida
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 13, 2016, 03:36:26 PM
Where in Florida? I'm in Florida

to start with at my brothers place just north of orlando in wintergarden then heading down the coast for a little road trip towards miami for a kind of small stagdoo with my bro and a few friends
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on May 13, 2016, 07:34:42 PM
Dude, get over to cocoa beach and see DW. The Zone builders chain will grow another link.

Also, looks like I'll be adding more UK trips soon so expect to have to get in the water with me. I have to ride that foil!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: DW on May 14, 2016, 04:11:54 AM
Supuk,

You'll be driving past my house when you come to coast. If you want to share knowledge and try my foil call me. 910-297-4567. Dwight.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 14, 2016, 05:28:42 AM
Supuk,

You'll be driving past my house when you come to coast. If you want to share knowledge and try my foil call me. 910-297-4567. Dwight.


sounds great coca is only a hour from the house so will try pop by at some point, been semi tempted to put a box in my surf sup so i can do some practice on the foil behind the boat on the lake.



Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 14, 2016, 05:29:22 AM
Dude, get over to cocoa beach and see DW. The Zone builders chain will grow another link.

Also, looks like I'll be adding more UK trips soon so expect to have to get in the water with me. I have to ride that foil!

always welcome
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 14, 2016, 09:14:52 AM
Finbox chopped in half and re done lucaly it was a nice quick fix, ghetto post cure on the dash board of the van in a black bag. Fill coat sanded and started to install the foil box.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 15, 2016, 05:08:55 AM
Nearly on the final stright! Cheater coat down hot coat deck in a hour hot coat bottome this eve fingers crossed! Realy like the look of this board I think it could end up doing anouther very similar as my go to 12'6
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Area 10 on May 15, 2016, 06:23:04 AM
A 16ft version might make a nice DW board...
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 15, 2016, 01:34:21 PM
yea it would be interesting to try it larger. It is very similar to the 14' cork board i did for andre.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 16, 2016, 03:09:50 PM
Managed to get it all finished up today but no proper pics, hoping to try it tomorow with any luck! The first foil specific dw board?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Area 10 on May 16, 2016, 04:03:16 PM
Well, would you count Kai's board as a DW board? If not (and it didn't much look like one), then surely you have built the world's first (unless someone here knows different). Congratulations - it's pretty tricky to be the first in the world to do anything.
Title: Re: Diy dw sup foil board pics
Post by: supuk on May 17, 2016, 04:15:47 AM
here we go testing later today as and when the wind pics up if not it will be tomorrow in the rain.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: yugi on May 17, 2016, 04:40:12 AM
Nice!

Presuming you just "eyeballed" the foil angles how are you planning to tweak them? Presuming that's where all the tweaking is at.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 17, 2016, 04:45:01 AM
The insadence is all ajustable so will just have a play I used to be a glider pilot so got a fairly good idea of were it need to be.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: getcarter on May 17, 2016, 05:06:23 AM
man i'm dying to see how this turns out?....Charlie do you have some kinda price list for the various things you build?...
GC
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: AndreasBreda on May 17, 2016, 01:31:45 PM
Would love to do a testride on this one. Looks really cool
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 17, 2016, 02:00:16 PM
Had a quick test today it was 15-18knots on shore small chop so I had to paddle stright out. To start with I was standing way to far forward, once I got back I did 3 small hops unfortunately I cracked the top of the mast were it bolts in so it went all very woberly from there on,just trying to re do it now to test again tomorow. So far I'm thinking the mast and fuz need to be a lot stiffer so may need a re build allso need to try think a bit more about the insadence between the foil and the board as to how to have it set up for the best take off. Allso posably wondering about moving the fin box forward more
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Arany on May 18, 2016, 03:33:58 AM
I show your picture  to a friend  of me and he dont live me .I have unidirectional  Carbon and glass that used to build windsurfer mast in the 1980 I wonder if I want to build mast what do I need and on the clan they could give me old rex for trying does it look ok to you.thanks
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on May 18, 2016, 06:31:54 AM
Once you get it flying the incidence will be set by the angle the board assumes, unless you mean the angle of the foils relative to each other. As I recall the front foil is screwed on with four screws. You could shim under the attachment with either a tapered shim or simply washers.

And A10, both Conner and Kai's boards were modified from existing boards by chopping off the tail. This may well be the first purpose built foil board.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Area 10 on May 18, 2016, 07:14:06 AM
And A10, both Conner and Kai's boards were modified from existing boards by chopping off the tail. This may well be the first purpose built foil board.
Glad to hear it. Supuk is a true innovator. The other day I tried a couple of his 21.5" wide boards on flat water. To my amazement, I could actually balance them - in fact I didn't get wet at all. I was getting some extraordinary speeds - for me at least. In fact, looking at the GPS record, even on his 26" wide heavily rockered DW 14ft board I managed a peak speed of over 9mph, with a sustained burst veering between 7.6 and 7.8mph. No wind, perfectly flat. That would be nothing of course for Connor, but for a plump wobbly old porker like me that's prey darned fast for a DW board in millpond conditions.

He told me that if I knelt down and paddłed his 21.5" wide 14ft flat water board hard, it would go fast. He was right - I got a peak speed of 10.5 mph. If I had the balance skills of a much younger man I'd maybe be getting those sorts of speeds standing up. I actually wouldn't have believed this possible - at least for me.

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on May 18, 2016, 07:48:40 AM
Charlie, I was thinking the other day that some sort of aluminum channel would be good for a test unit while figuring out the front to back position. It wouldn't likely work for a real working board, but as a test unit it would allow for a lot of tests.

Might not need it, since you can just move your weight but it got me to thinking about new kinds of boxes for this.

I know you'll dial the angle with a little time, I remember earlier you mentioning leaving it so you could tweak the angles.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: TallDude on May 18, 2016, 08:09:39 AM
Also possibly wondering about moving the fin box forward more
I'm feeling that it's still just too much board. Maybe more deck pad towards the tail. When you're foiling, it seems less board would be easier to control. Once your back down to paddling in the water how little length and volume can you get away with? Maybe width is your friend?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 18, 2016, 08:49:09 AM
First proper go out on the foil today in some micro waves. Things to note when learning to foil
1. It's a bit like paddling with a anchor when it's not flying.
2. It feels pretty darn high when you right out the water.
3. It's  a long way down when you crash
4.when you crash you crash hard and fast!
5. When the foil wants to go one way and you want to go the other the foil always wins!
6. Prepare yourself like your going in to a bull ring and probably won't win.
7. Did I mention the hard crashes!

That said I defiantly felt like I made some progress today  and got some cruzey flights staying fairly low and in semi control. It's defiantly puts you back to being a complete novice.

Got all sorts of thoughts on the direction to go, it would be great to do some more prototypes but bit strapped for time and money with the wedding coming up. One thought is that safety defiantly needs to be considered more I had a few close calls geting high sided and landing face first on the foil lucaly it missed my face, the north kite design seams like a prity sensible idea at least to start with.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Area 10 on May 18, 2016, 09:43:43 AM
Sounds like someone needs to design a Kevlar suit for foiling... What would the foil do to a standard kiteboarding helmet if it hit it hard?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: TallDude on May 18, 2016, 09:46:04 AM
I looked at the North kiteboard foil when I was researching foils. It does seem safer in more ways than one.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 18, 2016, 03:44:36 PM
yea i was waring a helmet and impact vest today and i think that is a bare minimum for learning. The north one looks a lot safer just hope if you did fall on it it wouldn't brake it straight away. I think in time dw foils will evolve in to something quite different. It would be great to have a go on one that is a bit more refined so i know what I'm trying to achieve as at the moment i don't know how much is me and how much is the ghetto foil.

i changed the angles of the foil relative to the board as well as the incidence between the front and rear which seamed to help and i may go a little further still.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: JP4 on May 18, 2016, 04:10:31 PM
I ran into Tony Logosz down at the Event Site today as he was rigging up his foil windsurfer. He said he has a foil SUP that he's been experimenting with downwind here in the Gorge. His thought was that it might be a tough go foiling downwind in the Gorge since the swell is much smaller than the ocean, not to mention the weeds. It will be interesting to see how all this develops.
JP

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on May 18, 2016, 11:50:40 PM
Surffoils over on Sways uses the runner style. I was thinking that that, being lower too, might be good for an experiment. You could also probably mount it with 4 pro box boxes. You'd need a forward canard wing probably but I think it's an idea worth pursuing.

Ok, which of us is gonna start a prototype over here?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 19, 2016, 12:27:59 AM
yes it makes a lot of sense after you start learning or should i say crashing . I wondering if putting some dihedral into the wings will help give a bit of stability, i think for sup it should be posable unlike kiting were the board is on a rail a lot more. Im also wondering if i have to much area on the foils and it would help going a little smaller.

so much to think about with it all it would be great to have others having a play and sharing there finding, there is so many thing to try.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blueplanetsurf on May 19, 2016, 12:48:06 AM
We have been practicing foiling behind a jet ski and yes, it is very tricky and you have to learn a whole new sport and muscle memory.  Kai makes it look easy but it is very tricky.  We also had some bad crashes and broke the mast on the foil.  One thing I learned is that your weight needs to be centered right over the front wing of the foil, so it looks like you need to extend your deck pad further back so your back foot is on top of the mast when foiling.  We ordered a hover glide foil from Slingshot to practice on.  You can get 3 different mast lengths so you can slowly work your way up to a longer mast which should be less dangerous and frustrating:
http://www.slingshotsports.com/Foil

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blueplanetsurf on May 19, 2016, 12:50:03 AM
This is a pretty good introduction to foils:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQhIZnHzp1k
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 19, 2016, 01:21:33 AM
cheers rob yes i should have put a longer pad on i was finding myself standing one foot on and one foot off. It would be interesting to know if the kite foils are the right sort of size for sup.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Admin on May 19, 2016, 06:07:26 AM
Why two wings on all of these designs?  It seems like one longer wing with no fuselage would simplify, reduce drag and might be plenty stable.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 19, 2016, 06:27:36 AM
In aircraft terms a convential main wing and a tail stabiliser is far more efficient than what is called a flying wing.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Admin on May 19, 2016, 06:36:38 AM
In aircraft terms a convential main wing and a tail stabiliser is far more efficient than what is called a flying wing.

Is that not design specific though (horizontal stabilizer, directional pilot input, long fuselage requirement)?  It seems like most low power air designs (hang gliders, parafoils, kites) and some planes (Concord, etc) opt for a single wing.  Looking at many current foil designs it appears that a lot (most?) of the drag would come from elements other than mast and a wing (were a single wing to be used).

Of all the sports that foil, we have the lowest power to work with.  No kites, sails, jetski, and relatively little gravity assist.  It seems like reducing drag is a much bigger deal for SUP foils than the other sports.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 19, 2016, 07:08:50 AM
Paragliders are extremely unaficient and hangliders are now using tails for stability so they can use a more efficient airfoil. To get the stability from a flying wing you have to have reflex in the foil which is unaficient in its self. One of the main things is to reduce the wetted surface area which is something a flying wing does not do well. Just take a look at the glide ratios between them all.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Beasho on May 19, 2016, 07:23:14 AM
Why two wings on all of these designs?  It seems like one longer wing with no fuselage would simplify, reduce drag and might be plenty stable.

A flying wing is the most efficient design, but they are almost impossible to control. 

Think B2 Bomber, they didn't make it to look cool.  However the older versions were called "wobbly goblin" because until modern computers were introduced they would flutter out of control.  The tail surfaces allow for stability on an otherwise unstable aerodynamic shape.  The high aspect wings on a glider are even more unstable requiring a sh-t load of computer stability or a simple long tail.

From Wikipedia:

A clean flying wing is sometimes presented as theoretically the most aerodynamically efficient (lowest drag) design configuration for a fixed wing aircraft. It also would offer high structural efficiency for a given wing depth, leading to light weight and high fuel efficiency.

Because it lacks conventional stabilizing surfaces and the associated control surfaces, in its purest form the flying wing suffers from the inherent disadvantages of being unstable and difficult to control. These compromises are difficult to reconcile, and efforts to do so can reduce or even negate the expected advantages of the flying wing design, such as reductions in weight and drag. Moreover, solutions may produce a final design that is still too unsafe for certain uses, such as commercial aviation . . . . But maybe computer control on a SUP Foil could be worth a try.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Admin on May 19, 2016, 07:29:29 AM
I wonder.  It seems like in our usage the flow from wing into mast around fuselage into tail wing would create more drag.  Especially with joints and hardware for portability.  Also we have the board (which in the air examples would be the fuselage) and then a second fuselage underwater (or a second mast for a second wing).  All seem relatively draggy.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 19, 2016, 07:51:59 AM
like i say wetted surface area is a big factor as well. However i don't think the designs that are used for kiting will be what it stays as. it would be interesting to try something more along the line of the AC boats.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: TallDude on May 19, 2016, 08:53:35 AM
A bit on the foil control.

https://youtu.be/HzbZ53cSGPE
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 19, 2016, 12:36:57 PM
i was actually at a place that builds the foils for the B.A.R teams AC boat a few weeks ago and saw them laying one up along with other things and was also lucky enough to go on the hugo boss boat and get a guided tour around his boat and how it all works, i have never seen so much carbon in my life!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: clay on May 19, 2016, 12:57:02 PM
I spent a lot time building and modifying RC planes for use as camera platforms.  I built a foam flying wing and could not get it to fly straight, I bought someone's pre-built foam wing and still had control issues.  I then tried some wood wings that were longer front to back and could get them to fly but they would quickly become unpredictable after adding some weight. After a dozen or so attempts I gave up on the single wing.  The many dozens of 2 wing planes I used always flew predictably, I overloaded them with batteries and cameras and tall antennas, and no matter how badly I Fraken-hacked them flying them was still relatively predictable and I still had decent control.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Admin on May 19, 2016, 04:39:50 PM
Flying straight might not be a problem with SUP.  The mast is a pretty huge (although to varying degrees) vertical stabilizer that is not present (or to a much lesser degree) in aircraft.  Maybe an even deeper boomerang shape

(http://api.ning.com/files/kV4MbYiv7oSfq1m3cNUoqdmRC7saxjvfoKxEahQrkVbXCLcSJku*IH1ECFDTbJA3kXm9EU1y-SZ4TliSvsbkmxFZpPWy6tEP/1082083750.jpeg)

possibly with a hint of Albert King

(http://campingcar.shumilog.com/files/2012/06/8e62ce3a48a9afca7d646efa029a5ab3.jpg)

...Back to your thread...
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on May 19, 2016, 07:36:32 PM
UK, I would have loved to see that shop. Not often you get to see 50k (more?) of carbon laying around.

I think the sailing thing might work. If I do one, I'll go that way. Maybe a back W foil with one of the V foils near the nose? I still think the multiple attachment points with fin boxes could be good too, if we can keep them from tearing out. (Set them to the deck in heavy foam?)

More googling.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 19, 2016, 11:05:50 PM
Yea a track would be good for a center foil however the flight caracteristics I don't think will be effected to much if you are standing in the right place. I have had a little idea I may try and prototype soon.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: yugi on May 20, 2016, 12:36:58 AM
I was SUPing around the Class C cats at the Worlds last year. The top guys all have foils a la AC, and was thinking exactly that.

The windsurf and kite single mast has the advantage that the rider easily (well, pretty technical actually) adjust foil angles without mechanical devices.

How about AC foils mid-ship (should I say mid-SUP?) then a rear foil which is self adjusted via one of those Moth-like prow wands that totally detect the exact ride the bow has above the water? It may backfire for nosebleed drops in DWs or it may just be the beeís knees.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 20, 2016, 02:05:41 AM
Flying straight might not be a problem with SUP.  The mast is a pretty huge (although to varying degrees) vertical stabilizer that is not present (or to a much lesser degree) in aircraft.  Maybe an even deeper boomerang shape

(http://api.ning.com/files/kV4MbYiv7oSfq1m3cNUoqdmRC7saxjvfoKxEahQrkVbXCLcSJku*IH1ECFDTbJA3kXm9EU1y-SZ4TliSvsbkmxFZpPWy6tEP/1082083750.jpeg)

possibly with a hint of Albert King

(http://campingcar.shumilog.com/files/2012/06/8e62ce3a48a9afca7d646efa029a5ab3.jpg)

...Back to your thread...

Your right adding sweep to a flying wing does add stability however at the penalty of more drag. Having the mast acting as like the fin of a airplane is all dependant on we're it is positioned relative to the center of lift the further back the more effective it is like a fin on a board unfortunately when they are very near the center of lift like on a flying wing they have to be large to be effective. It's kind of the the hole twin fin v quad, a quad is just like a twin fin but split in to but in doing that they become more effective
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 20, 2016, 02:13:55 AM
I was SUPing around the Class C cats at the Worlds last year. The top guys all have foils a la AC, and was thinking exactly that.

The windsurf and kite single mast has the advantage that the rider easily (well, pretty technical actually) adjust foil angles without mechanical devices.

How about AC foils mid-ship (should I say mid-SUP?) then a rear foil which is self adjusted via one of those Moth-like prow wands that totally detect the exact ride the bow has above the water? It may backfire for nosebleed drops in DWs or it may just be the beeís knees.

There is no reason I can see  a two or three point setup should react any different to the same weight shifting that is used to trim currently on a single mast set up. The trim want would be interesting however I think that probably only works if you have the secondary control like the moth uses on the rudder to change altitude.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Admin on May 20, 2016, 06:31:04 AM
I thought increasing sweep reduced drag. 

How long is your foil from leading edge front to trailing edge back?  What is the wingspan?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Bean on May 20, 2016, 06:47:53 AM
What is the lift coefficient? ;D
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Chilly on May 20, 2016, 07:41:32 AM
Crash helmet not included. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejbEAtkyefc

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 20, 2016, 07:57:23 AM
It's now about a 30" span and 5" cord on the front wing after its little modification that it's just gone through. I have reduced the area right down and added some dihedral to see if that helps with stability. I have allso been working on a new fuz to test the kite fouls I have. Yet to start on the new 3point design I have brainstormed.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: TallDude on May 20, 2016, 09:08:04 AM
I better start keeping an eye on my 90" long paddle. These foil sup guys are going to be wanting it. I can actually heat the handle and extend it to about 94".
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 20, 2016, 09:48:59 AM
you don't really need a longer paddle or at least much, once you are up high you don't need to paddle. i have been using my race paddle and it actually works quite well as once you start to rise a little and want to keep the power going your paddle shortens so is like choking down. The one advantage of a long paddle would be the extra stability it would provide when up high.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on May 20, 2016, 07:01:21 PM
Just took my wife back through this thread and it reminded me to mention how amazing this is, Charlie.

You've made a really complex hydrodynamic device here, from scratch, out of some pics off the net and your brain. Seriously, I hope everyone on here take a minute to appreciate your skills and the fact that you share them here with us.

In a more low tech note, I'm about to start glassing an old long board that I salvaged for a friend. It was his first really good board and I stripped it and have spent weeks on and off spackling and filling it and I've gotten it into decent shape. Notes for those who might do this. Use a router to cut the glass on the rails into strips so you don't pull off much foam.

Second note, never do this. Blanks are cheap. LOL.

We're doing black poly resin and I'm testing some layups this weekend. I'll keep you posted on it.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 21, 2016, 01:21:28 PM
Many thanks in not going to take much credit until it's functioning well. I don't think it's hard to build a foil that does the basics but is quite tricky to get it to work well especially when I have no experiace of foiling to go by.

I have had a bit of a hack around with it today so will see what the changes have done. Anoyingly I don't think there is going to be any sort or swell before I go to try it. I'm allso hatching a plan for two other completely different set up now however they will have to wait till I'm back from Florida
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: peterwSUPr on May 21, 2016, 07:42:54 PM
It's cool to see how this is progressing.

Here's something just slightly off topic (sorry!).  Speaking of foils, I asked this on the kiteforum and have not got an answer.  Does anyone know much about windsurf foils (DW)?  I don't have much use for a SUP foil unless they work in flat water, but I'm hoping to used the foil I'm building for kiting and windsurfing, since we have a number of days when the kite launching and getting back to shore is a bit of an issue, and windsurfing is less of a problem that way. 

I'm wondering about the lateral loads on the mount to the board on a windfoil.  I had planned to use a plate mount, but am wondering if I should do a tuttle mount, which is maybe not my first choice for a kiteboard.  I was hoping to keep the carbon foil fairly light, but wonder if it needs a tougher mast/strut to take the windsurfing loads.  Even if the old board I'm going to use is less wide and if the straps are not out near the rails, I would assume the typical lateral fin loading when applied with so much more of a moment arm would make for much high stresses on a windfoil.  Does that make sense?

Or, does anyone know of a differnt online source for good info on windfoils??

Thanks,
Peter
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on May 21, 2016, 11:51:51 PM
you are defiantly going to have a lot more side loading windsurfing, i would maybe think about using a 12mm birch ply as a core and then a lot of carbon over that booth uni and 45deg biax, that will be how i do my next one i think or make a mould and lay them up proper.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: peterwSUPr on May 25, 2016, 03:06:15 PM
Getting back to a previous discussion on this thread, here is something i saw on kiteforum about the angle of the rear wing.  Might be useful and is not quite what I was told.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTCyag5N_vE

Peter
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on May 25, 2016, 08:43:13 PM
Dig these foils. Could something like this design work in SUP or do you think you'd need more surface area?

https://quadrofoil.com either way, cool vehicle.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Kaihoe on June 15, 2016, 06:39:57 PM
Dig these foils. Could something like this design work in SUP or do you think you'd need more surface area?

https://quadrofoil.com either way, cool vehicle.

I can see a lot of benefits in this style of foil. It should be a lot more stable for those of use without super freaky balance. Also should be a lot safer during wipeouts.... 

Not sure how you would turn with them though
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on June 16, 2016, 07:04:38 AM
https://youtu.be/ooAAnZIgj8o

That's what I have in mind for a front foil--only much thinner, don't have to lift that much weight. For the back foil I plan to use a T foil on a rudder, probably foot-operated unless I get my ass in gear and do a radio rudder. It could be steered by leaning. Note the flaps on the rear foils. Those are almost certainly steering. Tilting the board against the foils could operate flaps through a relatively simple linkage, but I don't plan to do that. I think rudder steering will be adequate.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPsports on June 16, 2016, 09:54:44 AM
It's cool to see how this is progressing.

Here's something just slightly off topic (sorry!).  Speaking of foils, I asked this on the kiteforum and have not got an answer.  Does anyone know much about windsurf foils (DW)?  I don't have much use for a SUP foil unless they work in flat water, but I'm hoping to used the foil I'm building for kiting and windsurfing, since we have a number of days when the kite launching and getting back to shore is a bit of an issue, and windsurfing is less of a problem that way. 

I'm wondering about the lateral loads on the mount to the board on a windfoil.  I had planned to use a plate mount, but am wondering if I should do a tuttle mount, which is maybe not my first choice for a kiteboard.  I was hoping to keep the carbon foil fairly light, but wonder if it needs a tougher mast/strut to take the windsurfing loads.  Even if the old board I'm going to use is less wide and if the straps are not out near the rails, I would assume the typical lateral fin loading when applied with so much more of a moment arm would make for much high stresses on a windfoil.  Does that make sense?

Or, does anyone know of a differnt online source for good info on windfoils??

Thanks,
Peter

Aloha Peter,
I have started windfoiling...and, am also converting one of my SUP designs into a windSUP/SUP foil board...
Guys are using a 4 bolt plate attachment for kitefoiling...but, based on everything that I know and experienced, I would only use a deep Tuttle attachment for the sailboard...the loading and stresses on the board and foil is much beyond those that would come from even large high aspect fins on a sailboard...and, there are guys making and using Tuttle and some deep Tuttle attachments on kiteboards and/or converted surfboards...

Don't worry about getting into the straps until you learn to fly the foil...they are both unnecessary, and also potentially dangerous...

There is a lively discussion (64 pages long) on windfoiling/kitefoiling over at the UK Boards Mag forum...

http://forums.boards.mpora.com/showthread.php/74801-Windsurfing-on-a-hydrofoil
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: peterwSUPr on June 16, 2016, 06:30:04 PM
That's a great link for a big discussion on foils.  The nay-sayers who know everything that's wrong with it and have never done it are classic!

So, a DEEP tuttle you say?  Not even a regular tuttle box?  That's much too deep to fit in any kiteboard I own!  I'll have to post up some pics of the foil I've made soon.  Everything but the board mount and final finishing are done, so I need to make a decision!!

Thanks,
Peter
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPsports on June 16, 2016, 09:06:49 PM
That's a great link for a big discussion on foils.  The nay-sayers who know everything that's wrong with it and have never done it are classic!

So, a DEEP tuttle you say?  Not even a regular tuttle box?  That's much too deep to fit in any kiteboard I own!  I'll have to post up some pics of the foil I've made soon.  Everything but the board mount and final finishing are done, so I need to make a decision!!

Thanks,
Peter

Aloha Peter,
Yeppers...some truly classic zingers...;-)
I had an oceanography professor once who would say..."an oceanographer who has never been to sea, is like a virgin who has never had sex...they talk about it with enthusiasm...and, ignorance"...;-)

Re: building a foil for both kitefoiling and windfoiling...I'd pick one or the other...if you come up with a design for both...it may be a compromise in mast angle...lift...installation...etc...and, might not be good for either...however, I am starting to work with a guy in Canada who has a pretty good kitefoil that I want to adapt for windfoiling, with a deep Tuttle base config...

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on June 17, 2016, 02:10:01 AM
Wow, we're six months into the concept and there's a One True Way.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: peterwSUPr on June 17, 2016, 04:38:25 AM
Thanks SUPsports, I think I'll stick with the plate mount, and will also mount it to a old windsurfer kicking around with a mor forward plate mount for some low speed learning behind a boat.  I'll maybe see how this goes and decide if this gets adapted to windsurfing later, when I move on to version 2.0.

That must be Terrie you're talking about??

Peter
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPsports on June 17, 2016, 08:00:46 AM
Aloha Peter,
Sounds like a plan...plate mount will work to get you off the ground...or, water as it were...sooner than later...;-)
I should mention, another thing about deep Tuttle base, is regular Tuttle foils and fins can be used also...obviously, not vice versa...

Back when I was working with Sean Ordonez on the "Big Red" and "Big Blue" prototypes...which became the first production SUPs on the planet...we routered in a G-10 plate that was threaded for accepting a mast foot...it worked well...seems a similar same technique that was thru-bolted, could be applied...you can see the threaded plates in this image...

Yes, Terrie...I also have a local guy with a CNC making non-carbon kite foils...but, I like the weights on the carbon foils...makes off-water handling with a sail rig, not that big of a thing...
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on June 17, 2016, 05:22:33 PM
I finished a set of calculations for a set of angled foils set near the tip of a 14' board, assuming they have to lift and carry half my weight (240#) plus half of a 30 pound board plus a fudge factor. Either I've screwed up royally or foils don't have to be very big. Good chance it's the first option, but I've checked everything a dozen times. Looks like I could take a big shortcut and build a foil with some high aspect windsurf fins sanded to give them some camber. The airfoil is not going to be optimal, but good enough for a general test. I'm going to give it a go.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPsports on June 26, 2016, 10:25:33 AM
Many thanks in not going to take much credit until it's functioning well. I don't think it's hard to build a foil that does the basics but is quite tricky to get it to work well especially when I have no experiace of foiling to go by.

I have had a bit of a hack around with it today so will see what the changes have done. Anoyingly I don't think there is going to be any sort or swell before I go to try it. I'm allso hatching a plan for two other completely different set up now however they will have to wait till I'm back from Florida

Good job, Charlie...
Here's another guy that builds his first foil...kinda makes it look easy...also, builds a kite foil board...then takes it out and flys it...trial and error...no calculators...;-)

https://vimeo.com/136474166

My buddy is going to modify one of his carbon kite foils for me...change mast angle and length...bigger wings...deep Tuttle base...etc..."bleeding edge" takes on a whole new meaning...;-)


Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on June 26, 2016, 10:37:18 AM
Okay, that convinced me, straight to carbon for the Geezer foil. Guy has major league skills though. He might not glass like Storm, but he's a lot better than me. All the same--Imua.

I've ordered the divynicell I need to do it right. Kind of wish I'd held off on pulling that trigger. Plywood might be a better bet. Maybe I'll hold the three hundred bucks worth of friggin' foam in reserve and do #1 in plywood and carbon.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPsports on June 26, 2016, 11:05:55 AM
Yup...good call...plywood and carbon...
A local buddy of mine builds kite foils that way...CNC's the wood foil shapes...

There's a few guys who have cobbled foils together that are outlasting off the shelf foils...;-)

This one was pretty cool...

http://kiter.com.au/Forums/Kitesurfing/General/DIY-hydrofoil-with-rubbish-and-an-angle-grinder?page=1
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on June 26, 2016, 12:17:55 PM
That's hilarious. I've been eyeing my Big Kahuna skateboard as a possible donor. My wife would love it if that were gone. Especially after I mounted the offroad trucks/wheels and the mast base on the nose. She refuses to be around whenever I use it.

I love the tail wing. Just what I was thinking of doing, though I have a couple of windsurfing fins set aside that will need some camber mods to work. Too bad none of the big fins I know of are single sided. I probably should stop being such a pussy and just shape some. I watched Kenny tilton do it beautifully by hand with an angle grinder. All I need is fifty years of experience.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on June 26, 2016, 04:09:45 PM
A good birch ply is defiantly the best material for prototypes you need very little carbon or glass to get something useable.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blackeye on June 28, 2016, 11:26:40 PM
I would think that home laminated cedar would be the best choice for a wing core - light, strong, easily shaped, good with moisture.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on June 29, 2016, 01:58:05 AM
That cedar sounds promising. A 2X6 would let you cut out the a herald out as well and still keep it about a 1/2" thick overall.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Beasho on June 29, 2016, 05:10:37 AM
This one was pretty cool...

http://kiter.com.au/Forums/Kitesurfing/General/DIY-hydrofoil-with-rubbish-and-an-angle-grinder?page=1

Interesting comment to reverse the camber on the rear foil.  Downforce?  I couldn't immediately find reference links on the forum.

"I paid attention to put the flat surface of the fins facing upward - to create some lift downward as they say on http://kitefoil.forumactif.org/."
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPsports on July 01, 2016, 04:51:12 PM
We absolutely nailed the fitment of the foil on my new carbon Hammer foil board...pretty close tolerance...it ain't rocket science...but, it's kinda sorta freakin' close...;-)

Not many of these have been built in North America...

After a little paint and some detail work...it will be ready for liftoff...ground control to Major Tom...;-)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPsports on July 01, 2016, 08:26:01 PM
Here's the bottom of my new carbon Hammer foil board in brushed seafoam before the seal coat...gonna be hard to sleep while dreaming of flying this puppy...;-)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 01, 2016, 11:07:39 PM
Was back out yesterday having a little play with the changes I had made. Got a few nice long and low glides
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: peterwSUPr on July 02, 2016, 06:03:49 AM
Looks awesome, are you riding that downwind, or are you on a swell?  I'm also curious what you did about the stabilizer angle.

My foil (for kiting) is finished enough to ride, but needs some prettying up.  I mounted it to an old Bic Astro Rock I got from my dad, I think it's about 120L.  But I put it forward, for towing behind a boat.  I can start standing and gradually build up speed.  Other than a big crash I took from high up where I landed on the foil and severely bruise my thigh partially crippling myself, I'd say it went well.  I kept doing it but by the time I came ashore I could barely walk!  I had not paid attention to the rear stabilizer angle though, and it was essentially at 0 degrees.  I just re-watched that video I posted on the previous page and think I need about 3 degrees of angle at the rear as a start.  Hopefully I can fix that, heal up and wrap my self in bubble wrap and have another go in a couple days!

Peter
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 02, 2016, 08:37:06 AM
It was kinda 50 50 it was in the harbour in about 20-25knots the waves would have been un-rideable on a surf board catching the way out back. Once you gain a little speed and it starts to unweight you get a huge amount of extra speed and glide.

I have the hole setup rocked forward 2-3deg then the second time I went out I gave the tail 1deg + which helped, I went back to zero after the changes and you can tell it needs that positive angle so will maybe try 2deg next time
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on July 02, 2016, 09:13:24 AM
Oh man, I may have to think about a Tuttle in my next board just in case. That looks so fun man.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPsports on July 02, 2016, 04:25:59 PM
Deck side done...apply pad & grab handles...ready for liftoff...;-)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPsports on July 03, 2016, 03:38:58 PM
My new carbon Hammer convertible foil board is finished...bagged and tagged...ready for flight...;-)

http://blog.surfingsports.com/2016/07/foil-board.html
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPsports on July 03, 2016, 05:43:02 PM
All dressed up and ready to fly...I will prolly Monster Paint, or add EVA pad strips, to areas that may need it, once I have some time on it...there are really four sports going on with it...SUP...SUPfoiling...windSUP...& windfoiling...as close as I've come to designing the ultimate one design...;-)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: jrandy on July 03, 2016, 06:38:55 PM
Sweet looking ride!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SUPsports on July 03, 2016, 07:00:21 PM
Gracias jrandy...
I just added a couple of EVA pad strips to the tail...the pads that I designed for my other boards didn't quite fit this application...so, I kinda cobbled together something functional...but, not necessarily my first choice...it's growing on me...and, I predict even more so...once I install the foil and get it flying...;-)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: clay on July 09, 2016, 04:39:41 PM
Right on!  I look forward to the flight report.  I'm guessing you already have a flight plan, care to share where you plan surf it?

I ask because I have yet to think of a good spot to SUS foil in my area.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 10, 2016, 06:52:02 AM
Been bodging up a lower profile mast today to test some different foils this one is a ply core with carbon and glass.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on July 10, 2016, 07:34:09 AM
Man, you're reading my mind. I've been thinking of making a mast with tail and wing mounts for testing different wings etc.

I'm also thinking of mounting it to a thin plywood sheet that I could tape onto a board at different places like Piros did. Not perfect, but probably a good way to learn a lot about foils and how they work with different boards.

Still just making notes and such but I'm curious about a way to quickly mock things up.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 10, 2016, 10:28:09 AM
I wouldn't worrey about the board to much to start with, just use something that will paddle fairly fast. The  foil adds loads of stability.

I just got this back together and off to test it later, if nothing it should have a lot less drag.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: southwesterly on July 10, 2016, 04:55:10 PM
I ask because I have yet to think of a good spot to SUS foil in my area.

I hear you Clay. There only a few breaks in the kelp the entire length of Pleasure Point.

I'm thinking high tide down at the beaches just south of Moss Landing. It starts to break way outside and backs off at high tide leaving plenty of room to experiment.

Since you'll probably spent a fair amount of time in the water falling off at first, you might want to check https://www.dorsalwatch.com/report/
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on July 10, 2016, 08:03:53 PM
Those are the breaks, when a big swell hits and it's good, but not breaking when the tide is high. Way outside, no one inside because of the big rollers.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 11, 2016, 03:41:10 PM
So these foils were kite foils and I took them out today, for initial testing they do not seam to provide much lift at paddleing speeds, it tock a fairly good size wave to get out the water and it felt even more unstable than my own which doesn't surprise me with the ached tak so I think these are out the window and time to try some other foils.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on July 11, 2016, 09:53:58 PM
They look pretty small, especially the rear foil. I'd guess about 120# of lift at 6mph. That's a total swag, but that's how they look to me. I'm constantly surprised how the calculations come out though. Wings don't have to be very big in water.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 11, 2016, 10:57:44 PM
They look pretty small, especially the rear foil. I'd guess about 120# of lift at 6mph. That's a total swag, but that's how they look to me. I'm constantly surprised how the calculations come out though. Wings don't have to be very big in water.

According to the company I got them off they are fairly large for a kite foil I belive they went smaller still after. I actually ended up cuting mine down to the same size but used a flat bottom foil were as this has a fairly symmetrical foil though so not sure if that needs to change or not as odviosly there is two different pricapals.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 12, 2016, 10:40:23 PM
Here is just one way you can expect to crash

http://youtu.be/-oyBRjT6jTE (http://youtu.be/-oyBRjT6jTE)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on July 12, 2016, 11:11:31 PM
Wow, I guess my initial calculations weren't that far off. Everything keeps looking too small to me, so I raised the weight.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on July 12, 2016, 11:48:36 PM
the crash was on a fairly steep wave, I think the problem is having something that will lift at slow speeds but then that does not produce to much when you hit a big drop.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on September 19, 2016, 02:38:51 PM
Again  I havnt had much time to play with this but I have done a few modifications, I have added another few layers each side of uni carbon up the mast to stiffen it up more and have allso made a new thicker front foil. Now with more pictures coming out of the go foil you can see just how thick they have gone.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: TallDude on September 19, 2016, 03:44:40 PM
That was not a good direction or position to fall with that foil in your landing path .... closer than you want.(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160919/7913423eb86a79a065514f68ad2144e4.jpg)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on October 08, 2016, 07:11:26 AM
I have Been thinking about this a little more recently and ways to do faster lighter and more accurate prototypes and after doing a bit of looking around on the net and getting a little inspiration from seeing rc planes being 3D printed i think 3D printing some cores to then vacuum bag could be a good sollution  the only thing is I'm rubbish on cad and don't have a 3d printer yet.  I have said to myself I'm not allowed to buy a printer until i can use a cad program properly so that is going to be my first step while I'm in Australia over the winter. It will alls mean that ideas and designs could get shared around quite easily which should be good for development. 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on October 08, 2016, 03:31:12 PM
this was the video that got me thinking

https://youtu.be/4ybuv2TEYrk (https://youtu.be/4ybuv2TEYrk)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on October 10, 2016, 03:19:23 AM
Not much good for 3d printing but I thought I would have a play on Shape3D at drawing a basic foil similar to that of the go foil ie with a nice lot of volume inside, I could also cut one out of foam no I suppose to see what it comes out like. If any one else would like the shape3d foil to do a little refining to im happy to share the basic drawing to get you started.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on October 10, 2016, 06:34:18 PM
Yeah a 3D print would be a great way to control the variables too.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: capobeachboy on October 17, 2016, 11:42:09 AM
Am I crazy to think that a model airplane or glider wing from foam would work? Glass it up and go? I'm pretty sure that'd be the fastest way to play around.

I picked up one at Walmart awhile back with this in mind but didn't have the time to get around to it. I'd rather let the pros do the R&D and pick up their cast offs.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on October 17, 2016, 11:51:05 AM
In principal if you could get the size about right you may not be far off.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 23, 2017, 02:43:12 PM
so I'm slowly learning to draw in fushion360 so I can cut some moulds to build my next foil its a slow process but getting there and should make life easer in the future. Does any one else use fushion on here?

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on January 23, 2017, 06:24:47 PM
I have a buddy who was learning it.

One note on the printer, I'd offer that paying for a print of that size might be better since most of the cheaper ones are small. I think your foam idea is right on.

I've been considering looking at getting a mast cut out of plywood with a CNC. The idea being that a mast made of two hollowed out plywood pieces glued together and covered in carbon might get us there as far as stiffness, strength and lightness.

Though your mold looks good too. What would you want that made of, would it be printed or CNC?

Seems like the foam for a wing could get you there with the right carbon layup.

Let's try to crowd source a design here. Even if we all pitch in most (none?) of us would commercialize it and you could make them to sell if you wanted. Open Source software has worked like this forever. Use it for free to make your own solution or pay someone to do it for you if you don't have diy skills or want support.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 23, 2017, 09:57:12 PM
I'm going to cnc the moulds, they can be cut from a number of things anything from plywood or mdf to aluminium, they all have there benefits but odiously cost varies.

cncing ply wood and then covering would work but then you mat as well cnc the mold and do away with having to do any surface finishing on the part.

soon as I can figure how to do this fillet I should be good to go with running a test on the mast and then will try and design the rest. It would be great to get some numbers of a original foil to work from. I'm still waiting for my reply from go foil on my order.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on January 23, 2017, 11:25:55 PM
Broaching in a bigger wave is going to be an issue. Most of the foil surfers I see get out in front of the wave and ride the rising swell instead of a critical pocket. A foil that lifts at a bit over paddling speed (5mph) is going to have a substantial foil coefficient unless it has a lot of area. That high coefficient foil is going to be very draggy, and it's going to be speed sensitive.  If it lifts 200 pounds at 5mph it will lift 288 at 6 mph.

The higher the speed you get the lift you need, the more range you have. If a foil lifts 200 pounds at 7 mph it will lift 254 at 8mph.

Making a foil from an RC plane wing is pretty easy. If you can find out what the foil coefficient is of the wing it's fairly easy to calculate how big it needs to be for the weight you want to lift.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 23, 2017, 11:52:33 PM
Broaching in a bigger wave is going to be an issue. Most of the foil surfers I see get out in front of the wave and ride the rising swell instead of a critical pocket. A foil that lifts at a bit over paddling speed (5mph) is going to have a substantial foil coefficient unless it has a lot of area. That high coefficient foil is going to be very draggy, and it's going to be speed sensitive.  If it lifts 200 pounds at 5mph it will lift 288 at 6 mph.

The higher the speed you get the lift you need, the more range you have. If a foil lifts 200 pounds at 7 mph it will lift 254 at 8mph.

Making a foil from an RC plane wing is pretty easy. If you can find out what the foil coefficient is of the wing it's fairly easy to calculate how big it needs to be for the weight you want to lift.

perhaps this is were the trimming wand that the moths have could be used.

I'm not relay one for doing math so most of my stuff is done on the 'that looks about right approach' then build test and refine. I'm happy to play with numbers if you can give me them. The one good thing about fusion is it plots 4 and 5 series naca foils so not to hard to try different sections.

The naish foil has the area and size stamped on it so gives a bit of a idea.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on January 24, 2017, 07:46:16 AM
The wand and related angle of attack mechanism is pretty fussy and fragile. The pumping and pitch changes foil surfers do is to duplicate some of the function, partly changing angle of attack to vary lift momentarily, and partly adding some energy to accelerate.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on January 24, 2017, 08:45:26 AM
flexi foils is what we need! shaped with wash in at the tips for extra lift in the pump, then when your weight comes back on it will flex to have wash out.
this was the idea with my whale tail foil but i may have built it too stiff, stand by for results!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on January 24, 2017, 09:12:16 AM
The geezer foil flexes like crazy. Trust me, that's not a feature. Some flex might be useful, but it adds some random variation in lift and lift vectors to a system that's already marginally stable.

One option that I haven't seen any company explore is laddered foils. It's common in high-speed boats--essentially a biplane wing. When the top foil broaches, the lower foil still provides some lift, which prevents crashing. In the middle of the speed range the lift isn't enough to sustain the top foil out of the water, so the foil settles back. At the upper end of the speed range the upper foil stays out of the water. This has the added effect of increasing the surface area available for lift without increasing span. You could have two high aspect wings, and even stagger them a little to gain some pitch stability. Making the top foil relatively small provides breaching control without huge lift variations. Just enough to settle the foil and extend the useful speed range.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 24, 2017, 01:24:58 PM
I think the hole pumping thing could be really exploited and I intend to try a few ideas when I have a new working model. The wash in and out is a interesting idea but  you do need enuff stiffness for control.

I'm prity sure the curved foils you see on a lot of boats is for self regulating lift. The other one I have seen is called the crazy foil and it has the front foil sitting a lot lower than the rear with the idea that if the rear comes out you still have some lift from the front
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on January 24, 2017, 09:36:50 PM
Have you guys noticed that surffoils over on Swaylocks has woken up and is discussing his foils again. Pono, he's done flat foils more like you were working on for years now. Did a boogie board that looked crazy fun. Mostly bent aluminum. It's  wild to see that strips of flat metal can lift like that.

Tired foils makes a ton of sense. Even a little wing up above the main one would boost you up.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on January 24, 2017, 10:21:28 PM
anything piercing the surface suffers a drag penalty, especially an adverse pressure inducing foil!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PonoBill on January 24, 2017, 10:45:14 PM
True, but the stability, self-regulation, and crash-proofing of surface piercing foils is probably worth the penalty. And the mast of a submerged foil is generally faired as a symmetric foil, and has roughly the same drag as one of the foil legs.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 25, 2017, 12:57:51 AM
Have you guys noticed that surffoils over on Swaylocks has woken up and is discussing his foils again. Pono, he's done flat foils more like you were working on for years now. Did a boogie board that looked crazy fun. Mostly bent aluminum. It's  wild to see that strips of flat metal can lift like that.

Tired foils makes a ton of sense. Even a little wing up above the main one would boost you up.

been cheating to him off line for a while about things and about the open ocean stuff he has been experimenting for year on the wave stuff.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 25, 2017, 01:30:06 AM
trying to go about trying to draw the mast molds in a different way
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: dns on January 26, 2017, 08:49:19 AM
It's probably worth noting that every single racing sailboat is using surface piercing foils now. Even the monohulls are going down the same road. The SUP and kitefoil guys are backyard tinkerers compared to the millions that are spent developing and optimizing the AC72 and IMOCA 60.

We should really be copying those curved foils and figuring out how to adapt them to SUP boards rather than following the kitefoil lead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leZEIf3fKB4
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 26, 2017, 02:56:02 PM
it definitely something I'm going to play with when i figure this hole cad thing out and cut moulds easily, i should be able to speak to someone involved in the vendee globe boats about them to get there view.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on January 26, 2017, 06:44:30 PM
DNS, Pono is ahead on that. Check the Geezer Foil thread. I just don't know how those would surf but for flat and downwind I'll be they are superior.

In a more hollow wave I'm not sure how you'd manage the three or four points of contact.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: dns on January 26, 2017, 09:09:39 PM
You're right, I definitely don't think multiple points of contact is the answer. I was mostly referencing how the curved, surface piercing foils are self regulating with regards to lift. As the foil rises more of the wing is out of the water, reducing lift. re: PonoBill's post.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blackeye on January 26, 2017, 10:47:22 PM
don't know much about this but saw it on sailing anarchy... looks interesting.

https://www.facebook.com/SEAir.gravity/?fref=ts
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on January 27, 2017, 11:29:55 PM
DNS, totally agree. Progressive foils make sense. Don't get Pono started, he'll have a sensor on there and servos to dial the aspect ratio up and down. ;)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: yugi on January 28, 2017, 12:13:50 AM
I think small very tucked in curved (C) lifting foils could be cool up front on a DW board. Not enough to completely lift you, not enough to be a drag, just enough to assist the board to get on a plane. Ideally very shallow V so that they no longer interfere once the board is planing, retaining classic planing and turning feel. Should be pretty stabilising while in the water. Win win.

Just earlier, way earlier, planing by foil assistance. Thatís all.

Great foil reference (in french)
   https://foils.wordpress.com/tag/alinghi/
pdf downloadable english translation here
   http://proafile.com/multihull-boats/article/the-foil-alphabet
   
   

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on January 31, 2017, 12:49:59 AM
well its not a sup, and it was behind a boat, but she will fly at 3kts(!) with 75 odd kg onboard! now we just need 30kts to try it out on the sup.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on January 31, 2017, 10:01:44 PM
cool that's great, just started hand shaping a new front wing to experiment with. Did yours work out nice and stiff?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on February 01, 2017, 07:01:00 AM
yup its mint, no flex in this puppy. super thick is the way to go the lift this thing produces is unreal although 10kts is about as fast as you can go before you really notice the trailing edge separation. heres a couple of vids first one is after about half an hour of riding it and second one is my 85kg brother taking off at 3kts the next day. I weigh less  (75)and was getting up even slower but unfortunately no one got it on film
https://vimeo.com/201975035
https://vimeo.com/201983814
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: clay on February 01, 2017, 12:05:21 PM
Very cool!  I really appreciate seeing the pole cam underview of the board, that's a fresh look and I enjoyed watching.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 01, 2017, 02:20:20 PM
great stuff what angle have you used between front and rear foils?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on February 01, 2017, 06:45:36 PM
I don't have the foil with me but at a guess the main foil would be over 5 but less than 10 degrees, and the stabilizer about 7 at the root washing out to about 2 or even 0 degrees at the tips. There is a lot of room for improving here so I am making a new adjustable stabilizer with more area and a nicer section shape
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 11, 2017, 12:26:08 AM
finally got the cad work done and started cutting the first mdf mould for the mast.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on February 13, 2017, 12:28:10 PM
Looking good! Man that machine would make life easy. Do you set stainless into the Tuttle box for tapping into or just straight into the carbon?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Beasho on February 13, 2017, 02:46:51 PM
heres a couple of vids first one is after about half an hour of riding it and second one is my 85kg brother taking off at 3kts the next day. I weigh less  (75)and was getting up even slower but unfortunately no one got it on film

How much pull is on the rope?  The strain on the rope should be directly proportional to the Life/Drag of the foil.

For example a Lift/Drag ratio of 10:1 would be a relatively low performance Airfoil. This would suggest 85 KG of lift producing 8.5KG of drag or 18.5 lbs of pull on the rope.

Given that 'you' appeared to be using 1 hand this would seem accurate.  (excluding form drag which might still be low at 3 - 8 knots). 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 13, 2017, 08:47:39 PM
Looking good! Man that machine would make life easy. Do you set stainless into the Tuttle box for tapping into or just straight into the carbon?

The moulds will make life easier but getting to that stage is a lot of work. Having a few problems with the machine giving us fault codes at the moment so having to sort that out before carrying on.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on February 13, 2017, 09:41:47 PM
UK, man I love that you got the CAD done.

Can't wait to see the mold finishing for this one, I've never been around much molding.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blackeye on February 14, 2017, 07:33:26 AM
The moulds will make life easier but getting to that stage is a lot of work. Having a few problems with the machine giving us fault codes at the moment so having to sort that out before carrying on.

Out of curiosity, what is it that is a lot of work? ie what is your process? Is it the 3D design or is there something else between the drawing and running it on the mill?

I've fooled around with Sketchup and a local lasercutter shop said they could translate that into something the mill could take orders from, but I have no clue.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on February 14, 2017, 09:28:17 AM


How much pull is on the rope?  The strain on the rope should be directly proportional to the Life/Drag of the foil.

For example a Lift/Drag ratio of 10:1 would be a relatively low performance Airfoil. This would suggest 85 KG of lift producing 8.5KG of drag or 18.5 lbs of pull on the rope.

Given that 'you' appeared to be using 1 hand this would seem accurate.  (excluding form drag which might still be low at 3 - 8 knots).

I'd say more like 10-12kg+ with the new foil, mainly cause it is horrendously unfair on the underside and has a leading edge like a golf ball... i like to structurally test things before getting carried away with finishing  ;) the old thin foil at around 8mm thick had next to no drag on the rope once you got up at maybe 7-8kts, the tow line was slack most of the time even behind a 10ft dinghy with no wake to speak of.
in light of petrol prices here in NZ we are now conducting tests under sail, much better with no prop wash
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 14, 2017, 07:08:54 PM
The moulds will make life easier but getting to that stage is a lot of work. Having a few problems with the machine giving us fault codes at the moment so having to sort that out before carrying on.

Out of curiosity, what is it that is a lot of work? ie what is your process? Is it the 3D design or is there something else between the drawing and running it on the mill?

I've fooled around with Sketchup and a local lasercutter shop said they could translate that into something the mill could take orders from, but I have no clue.

Doing the cad has taken a bit as I'm quite new to it, then machining doesn't always go to plan and it takes over 5 hours to cut just the mast, then there is a fare bit of time involvedvin prepareing the mould then machining cores and then laying up bagging and cooking.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 20, 2017, 02:15:17 PM
Been away in nz for a week but back now and we think we have the problem with the CNC sorted and we managed to get it to Finnish the one side last night with a pritty good Finnish. Just got a few little bugs to work out and then probably do one more test cut and maybe then try anoutger material for the final mould that will need less work to Finnish.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on February 25, 2017, 09:23:17 AM
 new adjustable stabilizer made from the tips of the old main foil for quick adjustment between anhedral and dihedral, angle of incedence, and the foils can also swap over so we can try having the low pressure side on the top to see how that affects things. goes rock solid when the bolt is tightened up so should work ok
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 25, 2017, 10:43:49 PM
nice that should give you some room to play a bit just make sure its nice and stiff. I have played with incidence in the past out on the water just with shims, I think now I'm getting the hang of cad I will just make a few different moulds for the rear foils and just make it so I can change them out quick and easy.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on February 26, 2017, 01:19:54 AM
Container, I did a lot of work on An and Di tips a few years ago.
 With a flat foil the lift drops as the foil rolls L to R, and the loss of lift is quite dramatic Vs the angle. That is at say 5 degrees you lose maybe 10% lift but at 15 degrees you lose maybe 40% .

 An hedral, that is downturning the tip decreases the lift even on a Flat plane so you are wasting area for no lift. As you roll, the An tip returns even less lift. 

Di hedral, or up turning the tips also reduces lift on the flat plane ( as opposed to a completely flat foil) but as the foil rolls, the inside Dihedral tip comes into the horizontal plane and increases lift at the tip.
 So as you turn the inside tip increases in lift and stabilises your turn. That's why most planes have Di hedral wings. Huh ?
 The angle of the Di or An has to suit the roll angle so it's a smooth transition as you turn and the area of the tip is also important. I've used a tapered tip so as you lean into a turn you can feel the lift from the tip, but also get the feeling of the lift fading as the tip tapers so you know where you are based on feedback.
 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on February 26, 2017, 01:48:01 AM
Been playing around a little more with cad and done a few more test's with different tool paths and adding a few bits to the mould. This one came out good except the step over was 50% to low. Hoping to get the final mast mould cut in the next few days
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: container on February 26, 2017, 10:01:26 AM
mast looks wicked supuk! do you finish it by hand from that point or is custom wood just shit for machining?
 surffoils i have found there is far less drag with an anhedral main foil, according to my videos there is next to no wave drag compared to the same foils in a dihedral position but like you said the loss in effective area is quite noticeable. these hinged wings are only the stabilizer, its just a short term set up to quickly change position and see the effects it has on the board then i will glue it together once we have found a sweet spot. i have also cut off and swapped over the tips on the main foil as these had 0 toe in and i think were only aiding the tip vortex. hopefully it will be slippery enough for the sup board im starting to get real sick of carbon dust!

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on February 26, 2017, 12:10:03 PM
Container, the finished setup looks sick, I'm only using a single foil with no stab.
I found things end up being a compromise of whats good in a straight line Vs turning but it would be good if there was a perfect setup for everything.
Oh yeah, I found the same about No Toe too.
I would love to be there when you're testing it, that adjustable rig is absolutely amazing.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on February 26, 2017, 07:43:50 PM
Man, I'd almost say keep the adjustable and build one fixed that matches the angle but as I type this, I know how it is when you're finishing something. You couldn't pay me to sand another minute by the time I finish a board. ;)

SupUK, I have a cad expert here in LA that we can hire if you get into anything too weird to finish. I can't wait to see the final molds.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blueplanetsurf on February 27, 2017, 11:07:33 PM
Container, I really like the adjustable angle stabilizer wing and am curious what you find.  The Go Foil stabilizers are angled downwards while most of the kite foils I have seen are angled or curved upward, I wonder how they act differently.

Surffoils, in my experience the Kai Foil, which has downturned tips, creates more lift in turns than when going straight, I'm not sure why but I think the g-forces of the turn increase the speed of the water flowing over the foil and you really have to lean forward into a turn to keep it from coming too high out of the water.  I'm really  curious about your single foil design, can you post a photo of it please?

 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Admin on February 28, 2017, 03:39:44 AM
I'm really  curious about your single foil design, can you post a photo of it please?

Me too!  Delta? 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on February 28, 2017, 11:52:49 AM
Thanks for your interest guys, if you Google 'Surffoils' and look at the Images there's hundreds of pics of my foils and videos.
Single,double, triple foils that are un-stallable, they regulate the amount of lift so it's always stable. Theres no glassing, the components can be swapped in and out to adjust to your skills and the waves.
Depending on the design they cost about $100-$150 to make and they're designed to ride on standard tubing beachwaves, bottom turns , tubes.
 If I had the time I would certainly have a range of my own SURFFOILS on the market.
Questions ?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: blueplanetsurf on February 28, 2017, 12:51:46 PM
Thanks surffoil, I googled it and I did find your vimeo channel:
https://vimeo.com/59636016

I guess you have the foils mounted on a body board, so now it makes sense that you were able to learn it without the usual wipeouts from the standing position, haha.

I like the idea of multiple foils to avoid stalling and also the single wing foil.  You said you are now learning to foil on a SUP, are you using the same foils as on the body board?

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on February 28, 2017, 04:14:09 PM
I don't know why it won't embed here, there's no privacy regulation I've done.

The prone foiling gave me the chance to work out how to ride them and what changes to the design made to the riding. I rode thousands of waves on the prone foils since seeing Laird in 06. When you're prone there's no fear of losing balance so I learnt that you can bunny hop on foils, do high speed surface slides by intentionally ventilating the foil.     That the foil design for normal surfing waves has to adjust for the angle down the face towards the beach, the angle down towards the nose and the curve of the wave itself with bigger waves needing a wider, longer foil for stability at high speed.
 I started with the Twin lateral foils like Laird did and tried so many arrangements with NACA profiles and all the carbon, Aluminium ,glass layups, grinding, sanding. Trying to get the right angles front and back,  the distance between, trying An and Di tips becuase it was bogging in the turns and after about 2 years I gave up.
Screw it !
And then I thought surfings a left and right engagement, especially due to the water flow on a wave and  not directly from the front. So I turned the foils to go front to back and it's like night and day.
 Here's a pic of one of the 2009 foils in the Vimeo videos.
 It's very basic from what my foils are now but it shows that you can use a single foil in the surf and have complete control.

3 ply with 1x6 and 1x carbon. Flat plate, no foil, 5 mm thick, so no form drag and it's very light.

(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/2017/IMG_2657_zpsdc6onqco.jpg) (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/SURFFOILS/media/2017/IMG_2657_zpsdc6onqco.jpg.html)


(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/2017/IMG_2656_zpsoixbqlmc.jpg) (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/SURFFOILS/media/2017/IMG_2656_zpsoixbqlmc.jpg.html)


(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/2017/IMG_2657_zpsdc6onqco.jpg) (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/SURFFOILS/media/2017/IMG_2657_zpsdc6onqco.jpg.html)

(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/2017/IMG_2662_zpsgvbsyrhw.jpeg) (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/SURFFOILS/media/2017/IMG_2662_zpsgvbsyrhw.jpeg.html)

(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/2017/IMG_2661_zpszi4mw5qv.jpeg) (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/SURFFOILS/media/2017/IMG_2661_zpszi4mw5qv.jpeg.html)

(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/2017/IMG_2660_zpspzjknrb3.jpeg) (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/SURFFOILS/media/2017/IMG_2660_zpspzjknrb3.jpeg.html)




Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on February 28, 2017, 05:38:29 PM
And there's a ton of information on my prone foils on Swaylocks back to about a year before Laird. I got the bug from Terry Hendricks (U.S) who was doing foiling back to the 1980's. And a guy Gilbert Lum from Hawaii. We all built our own boards and foils. But when I saw Laird I had to try shortboard and then SUP foiling.

And there's a lot of surfing forums ( Swaylocks, SurfingWaves, Compsand, RealSurf ) with pics of me and other guys riding my paddle in shortboard hydrofoils in 2013. Just 3 years before Kai did it.

(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/2017/IMG_2664_zpsmcml7sgc.jpeg) (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/SURFFOILS/media/2017/IMG_2664_zpsmcml7sgc.jpeg.html)

(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/2017/IMG_2665_zpshm10lgrp.jpeg) (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/SURFFOILS/media/2017/IMG_2665_zpshm10lgrp.jpeg.html)


(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/2017/IMG_2666_zpsqnawigrm.jpeg) (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/SURFFOILS/media/2017/IMG_2666_zpsqnawigrm.jpeg.html)



Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 01, 2017, 04:05:48 PM
Man, I'd almost say keep the adjustable and build one fixed that matches the angle but as I type this, I know how it is when you're finishing something. You couldn't pay me to sand another minute by the time I finish a board. ;)

SupUK, I have a cad expert here in LA that we can hire if you get into anything too weird to finish. I can't wait to see the final molds.

Getting there with cad, I get distracted every now and then and start drawing other stuff that I have wanted to do for years but not been able to as I didn't know how! I have also had a few bits to do for the guys at the place were the cnc is as they were not fully up to speed with cad and cam ether, starting to get some good parts coming out of it now just having to spend a bit of time figuring out the machine as its a china job and means a lot of the time things are not always as simple as they should be and there is zero information or manuals and zero backup and support (I'm sure I have come across that problem before, sound familiar ???)

bunch of new router bits turned up today  which is good news so it wont take as long to cut everything out.

I'm using fusion 360 for cad and cam which has been great as there is a huge online network of people willing to help and it uses a cloud so they help side by side.

These are a few of the bits ive been working on this week. the middle one will be a new dust extractor attachment for my cnc back home that I will 3d print.

and that's another thing now I can do cad I can officially allow myself to get a 3d printer when I get back to the uk  along with building a second cnc :)
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on March 02, 2017, 06:45:37 PM
  You said you are now learning to foil on a SUP, are you using the same foils as on the body board?

Yes Robert, they're the same foils. But some things are different. The Distance between board and foil is shorter so Ive lost The Pump but gained lots more control. The shorter mast means the whole setup is lighter and the balance point is closer to my feet and the transition between paddling and flight is quicker.
With a longer mast, sometimes when the foil stalls the mast acts like a lever tipping the board down at an angle into the water, with a shorter mast the angle is less so easier to recover. I'm using masts no longer than 18" and some down to 8" where it's more like Ground Effect Vehicle (GEV) skimming with the board rails coming into action on cutbacks and bottom turns.
 It's inevitable that such a new sport like SUP and shortboard foiling will move quickly from the basics into a more complex and aggressive style. I look at handgliding and how it's developed into those Red Bull Flying Wing Suits and the same with SUP, not long ago they were very chunky beasts but now it's split into ocean, beach, flatwater and foil, ( and probably more) with each discipline having its own exacting designs and functions.
 For me I always foiled in the surf so my designs have progressed in that direction but it's sure that Foil SUPs will diversify and get more refined in design and performance.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: yugi on March 03, 2017, 01:21:57 AM
...
 I'm using masts no longer than 18" and some down to 8" where it's more like Ground Effect Vehicle (GEV) skimming with the board rails coming into action on cutbacks and bottom turns.
 ...

cool!

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on March 03, 2017, 01:44:17 AM
Thanks for you comment Yugi !
 There's no ( or little) difference if you're 30" or 20" or 10" or 5" off the water. As long as the board is clear, you're foiling at full speed. And the further the vertical distance between foil and board only increases the 'drag balance' between the two. And a shorter mast or struts allow you to surf at any beach/ point/reef wave like regular surfers.
A shorter mast is also safer, which is a big deal. I've never been hit by any of my foils in gee... 13 years of foiling prone and shortboard, but it's because they're 1/2 the length of other foils.
 But after a while I started blurring the lines between foiling and surfing and with the shorter struts there's less dynamic forces so you can replace all that glassed carbon with other materials to make a much quicker and cheaper foil setup.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on March 03, 2017, 02:33:25 AM
And now you see why I was thrilled to have surffoils join us here. His experience and fresh approach blew me away on sways.

The reduced mast length, and therefore reduced pressure and structural strength needed are key I think to rapid innovation.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Admin on March 03, 2017, 03:17:24 AM
Surfoils. do you have any high res images of your current builds?  Post 'em up. 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Area 10 on March 03, 2017, 03:33:09 AM
Yes. This just got VERY interesting.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on March 03, 2017, 12:54:49 PM
@Surfcowboy, I did a great online apprenticeship at Swaylocks with so many masters of surfboard design and construction there.
So many tinkerers, tradesmen, experts and innovators on the one forum.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on March 03, 2017, 03:35:36 PM
@Admin, Ive sent you a PM all about the photos.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on March 05, 2017, 03:47:06 AM
C'mon guys, I know you've got questions.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Admin on March 05, 2017, 04:02:48 AM
C'mon guys, I know you've got questions.

There has been some good discussion here about single foils and shorter masts.  You can search some of the old foil posts to read some of the suggestions and concerns.  I am stoked that you are working on those.  I get your reluctance to post photos but without them it isn't possible for us to engage your ideas.  The only way to stay ahead is by constantly innovating, not protecting.  It sounds like you have some great ideas but they will never be attributed to you if you don't share them. 
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on March 05, 2017, 08:47:29 AM
Surffoils, I'd bet several of us would willing to help discuss writing up docs if you want to publish a little e-book or something. But I understand if you are thinking of commercializing something.

I think there are a lot of ways to get paid, including selling plans, a book, or even kits. I'd like to build my own and I think paying for the info is fair or even selling 3D CNC files so they can be cut out of plywood or whatever. I did this in my own business and now companies pay me to consult on their products.

I'm betting there are some brands who would pay you (and U.K.) to help them make a product out of this. Admin is right, but you also don't have to just give everything away. I think a crowd sourced book could get you started and establish your ideas as your own.

I'd be willing to help write it just to move the art/craft along and I'll bet there's enough talent here on the zone to get you started.

Same to you Charlie, if you need help packaging or documenting stuff, let me know. You guys did a lot of hard work and I'd love to contributor you two getting rewarded a bit.

You have basically written a book over the years, it's really just collecting it and putting it into a format.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on March 05, 2017, 05:23:42 PM

Thanks for the offer Surfcowboy, I think there's a lot of design to come by having a discussion here, everyone interprets things differently and that's going to good to hear. Maybe we need a new thread on Hydrofoil Design ?

If you had to build a stable design for anything that was all about going forward, but lift wasn't an issue, what would be its longest axis ?



Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on March 05, 2017, 07:10:05 PM
Man , I'm really a fan of the longer foils myself, but I need to build a bodyboard and get to work.

I think the current foils show about 2 to 2.5 feet, 24 to 30 inches (oh man, are we gonna have to standardize on the metric system here? ;) but Pono and a few of us discussed the geezer foil idea of splitting out the foils over a long down wind board just to make things super easy but obviously that won't work on a wave.

But I do think people are over compensating with the front/rear axis. If you actually look at surfboards on a wave there's not really that much in the water. Skimboard guys have even less so I can see how maybe 18" could work if you were a good rider. If you check the current GoFoil systems on really long boards, you gain some stability just from the pressure of the water moving over the foil. I assume this is the same effect as a low volume Sup with rails under water gaining side to side stability. Add the movement and I'm betting the lift stabilizes the fore/aft even more allowing even less length.

Time to hack up a foamie and start cutting plywood shorter and shorter. ;)


Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on March 05, 2017, 07:13:57 PM
Surfcowboy, you've got some ideas there that I've been doing, the split foils works really well on waves and they're adjustable. I'll have to stick with the other thread for Foil stuff.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 17, 2017, 02:44:36 AM
Slowly making progress! been doing a lot of messing about with the cnc and had a few problems with it along the way with it but we finally got the first of the proper moulds cut today. I have decided to have two mast options a short mast at 450mm and a long mast at 640mm. There is a deep tuttle for the board side and a standard tuttle for the foil end.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: surfcowboy on March 18, 2017, 01:07:23 AM
Congratulations man, that's solid.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: Bean on March 18, 2017, 07:08:05 AM
+1  really nice work UK - it's no wonder Land Rovers are legendary!

Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: yugi on March 18, 2017, 08:22:38 AM
Slowly making progress! been doing a lot of messing about with the cnc and had a few problems with it along the way with it but we finally got the first of the proper moulds cut today. I have decided to have two mast options a short mast at 450mm and a long mast at 640mm. There is a deep tuttle for the board side and a standard tuttle for the foil end.

nicely, sukup!

But but but, I thought the answer was 420mm.

You testing locally?
Title: Re: Diy sup foild
Post by: supuk on March 18, 2017, 12:44:11 PM
Not sure quite what you are asking but im still in Australia at the moment, until I get this finished i don't have any thing in terms of foils to test on the water but I am spending a lot of time at the workshop learning and playing with the CNC. I'm looking forward to getting back to the UK and having my CNC at arms reach at all times.
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on March 20, 2017, 03:29:38 AM
Are you in Sydney ?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 20, 2017, 06:14:53 AM
Are you in Sydney ?

no Melbourne, heading up the east cost in a few week though so will probably be passing through at some point
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: SURFFOILS on March 20, 2017, 11:09:29 AM
If you're near the city or northern beaches let me know and we can have a chat. My number is 0416804168
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 21, 2017, 05:18:16 PM
Moulds are polished and ready to to lay up for the first test!
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: PT Woody on March 22, 2017, 02:39:58 AM
Moulds are polished and ready to to lay up for the first test!

Where are you going to test them, Charlie?
Title: Re: Diy sup foil
Post by: supuk on March 22, 2017, 03:51:37 AM
hopefully out here in Melbourne if I get it done in time if not it will be back in the uk when I head back in about 7 weeks

I couldn't get any uni carbon locally however I did pick up some heavy weight basalt and glass today. I have also been busy waxing the moulds all day today  so they should be ready to lay up tomorrow.