Standup Zone Forum
General => The Shape Shack => Topic started by: surfcowboy on May 09, 2015, 01:53:31 PM
-
Ok, so blank is being cut gathering materials now and need to talk glass.
I'm hoping that these threads as I build this board can serve as easy ways for other newbs to find info on SUP construction as it's hard to get clear info on other surf forums without being subjected to hassles about building a standup. (Im trying to make sure the threads have clear, searchable subjects.)
I'm doing EPS and Epoxy on a 7'6" X 29" surf SUP, for those keeping score.
The classic is single 6oz bottom with dual 6 top. I'm leaning towards this as a base.
I've heard some folks say dual 4oz bottom and then 3 layers of 4oz on top.
I can see how that might be a stronger layup but the glass seems harder to get in a backyard quantity.
Extra points, do I need a 4 oz deck patch and fin patch? I'm thinking so as I value a bullet proof board over absolute lightness.
I'd love feedback from the guys on here as to what are your favorites from light to bulletproof for a surf SUP.
-
You have to tell everyone the density of the eps.
-
I'm using 1.2 lb eps. It's called S100 here and is stock builders insulation. Very soft.
Used it to build a 10-6" race "board for my boy. It has 3 layers on bottom, ( rock hits) 165g+200g+200g. And 3 on deck. Plus a standing area with 3mm high density corecell that has layer of 165 under it. ( kids jumping on it, falling on knees when plowing into rocks). Plus I have 100mm wide 200g Uni-d carbon strip each side under glass.
Whole thing almost final painted and it seems pretty strong. Has 6 layers over rails.
It's not that heavy. Have not weighed it yet.
-
Jimmy Lewis had a great series on construction on his facebook page recently.
He uses 6 6 4 top and bottom on all sups that he shapes by hand.
I ask for 6 4 4 and 6 4 on my customs. Had an ESA contest destructo board single 6 single 4 old school epoxy blank shaped by Greg Lohr in the eighties. Super light - FRAGILE. Amazing performance but not a daily driver..
-
For that size board, s-glass plus a cf deck patch might make sense.
-
Thanks guys. It's 1.5lb Marko foam.
Bean I knew S was gonna come up. I've spoken to DW about it but it seems I'd have to source it from the East Coast which seems crazy. I guess I need to call some folks and see if they just don't list it on their sites. (I'm not buying a roll.)
Big 6-6-4 and 6-4 seems like a pretty solid board. I'd wrap all the 6 and the 4 would probably end at the rail (it's 30" around here mostly.)
I also need to call a buddy who glasses for a living, he might have a wide roll of 4 oz that he could sell me a few yards off of.
This is my first non-production/Cobra board and while I'm a lot easier on boards now, I don't wanna have to baby this one much. As long as I'm not sloppy, most anything will be much lighter than my 26lb factory board but that sandwich was nice for bumps and scrapes.
-
Fiberglass Supply now carries 44" 4oz Sglass, I believe. Problem with so wide is you have a lot of waste...but that could go for deck patch, fin patch, you just might have to piece a little. I think you'll want a deck patch. I don't have power surf so I do 2 1/2 (two full wrap layers and one full wrap that goes to 7-8" in front of handle) layers of 4oz S on top and two layers of the same on bottom, plus a fin patch area. I also do a deck patch extra after the 2 1/2 layers. And I use 2lb EPS. Boards seem light and strong to me. I've been using 14oz Sglass for the deck patch. It's 50" wide so I just use the full width and cut it as wide as the deck. Heavier of course than CF but I have it and it does the trick and I don't really notice the weight difference.
I have a bunch of off cuts of 4oz S that are around 8" wide and 8' long that I'd be happy to mail you a couple for deck patch, fin patch, whatever. Or if you'd like a 14 oz S deck patch I could mail that also, free of charge.
-
Assuming you're not going to bag this, you should consider wetting out the glass on a flat surface. That lets you get away with a lot heavier layup without turning the board into a heavy slug. I've been experimenting with doing all layers for a side simultaneously this way, aiming at 35% resin volume by weight. With the glass layers on a flat surface you can get the layers to incorporate smoothly without distorting the weave. I use a rubber roller to get all the air bubbles out, working from the middle out with each layer. Lay black plastic on top of the last layer. fold lightly back in half, then half again. Carry to the board, place it on the last fourth of the board, unfold, remove plastic, squeegee.
Yeah, I know, it's not the normal way, but I like the end result and you can be pretty accurate with the resin percentage.
If I was going to all the trouble of building my own board I'd use S-glass for sure.
-
Everyone is right about the S and if Fibreglass Hawaii has it, that's relatively easy then.
Should I still do some 6 oz and just put the S 4 oz over it or go 3 layers of 4oz up top and 2 on bottom. (I'm still thinking deck patch too. )
I think the JL 6,6,4 and 6,4 sounds solid. Pono, I took the table discussion over to a thread. You and DW's stuff needs to be shared unadulterated.
-
Try Jason Hendricks of Greenroom Board Co for the wide 4oz S cloth here in Cali. He had some late last year when I last talked to him. He is the West Coast distributor for the same company that DW uses. His pricing was the best I found. Jason@greenroomboardco.com
-
Actually it's DW's ideas, with a little stuff I added (the plastic sheet) from making CF race parts. When I need a big, flat piece of carbon sheet I put plastic over a piece of polished granite (I have tons of it, my shop used to be a granite and marble cutting outfit), wet out the plastic, put on a layer, wet out, then roll and repeat until I have the thickness I want. I only mix enough epoxy to make 40 percent by weight. Then lay on a sheet of glass, and a heavy piece of polished granite. The end result is flat, shiny, smooth, and strong as hell. Nothing to do with surfboards, of course.
-
When you guys suggest 6+6+4 on the deck, does it matter where the 4 oz goes? (Against the foam, sandwiched between the two layers of 6, or the top/outside layer?) Also, do you cover the entire deck with the three layers?
-
I just went all the way back to August 2014 on JL's FB page and couldn't find that series on construction. Do you think you saw it somewhere else?
Jimmy Lewis had a great series on construction on his facebook page recently.
-
I just spoke to Jason and the only thing he inventories now is the Greenroom resin.
Try Jason Hendricks of Greenroom Board Co for the wide 4oz S cloth here in Cali. He had some late last year when I last talked to him. He is the West Coast distributor for the same company that DW uses. His pricing was the best I found. Jason@greenroomboardco.com
-
I'm not sure about the order of layup. I'd guess the smoother 4 oz on top to make the fill coat less thick.
Thx for the info about green room.
I'll check with Fiberglass Hawaii for the bigger glass.
-
I'm not sure about the order of layup. I'd guess the smoother 4 oz on top to make the fill coat less thick.
You guessed right....
-
Look what showed up here today from the boys at Marko.
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag331/Bryson_Jones/Simmons%20SUP/29bfb8bf-f2d9-4660-898c-4b2227999599_zpsyhokdfb9.jpg)
-
Kuhl! So Bruddah have you decided on your glassing schedule et cetera et cetera! Inquiring minds want to know!
I went with 6 4 4 and 4 4 on my last custom..
-
Thanks.
If I was to use 4 oz S cloth only, how many layers top and bottom would you recommend on a 7' to 8'-6" long stringerless sup built with 1.5 lb EPS?
I'm not sure about the order of layup. I'd guess the smoother 4 oz on top to make the fill coat less thick.
You guessed right....
-
surfcowboy - I couldn't find 4 oz S cloth anywhere local that was wide enough but I found some 43" wide S Aerialite at Greenroom and Fiberglass Supply. The stuff at Greenroom is a deal at only $8.60 per yard plus shipping.
-
Look what showed up here today from the boys at Marko.
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag331/Bryson_Jones/Simmons%20SUP/29bfb8bf-f2d9-4660-898c-4b2227999599_zpsyhokdfb9.jpg)
You could have paid for more passes and it would have come out a little finer. Marko bought that CNC of a friend of mine years ago. It's does the job, but it's pretty outdated. I've had them cut a number of boards for me, and you have some detail sanding to do. Use a soft foam with some 80 grit and go very light with it. Then 120 grit and so on.
-
Oh man, thanks for the greenroom hookup. I thought you were saying he only stocked resin.
Big, I'm thinking that it will be 6-6-4 on top (w small extra 4 deck patch) and 6-4 on bottom with a fin patch for the quads. I am still 50/50 on going all 4oz. This may be all wrong but the extra thickness/resin "feels" better in my mind but that may be misleading.
A carbon strip on both sides to stiffen it up. It's looking like S4 and E6 unless I can source the S6. I'm checking all around. I can see that eventually as my skills come up I'll want to do carbon rails and such on these thinner boards (due to my size) but I'm not doing that on this one.
The tail is super thin and I want some strength back there. I'll post up the blank dims when I start my months long build thread. Lol.
Most likely going to be a 5 box ProBox install.
It's super exciting to just have the thing in my garage and get to geek out and measure it. I'll start sanding this weekend.
-
TD, I noticed. It's actually kinda fun for this one but yes, it's rough. It'll also be good for Instagram shots of me sanding it down so I look like a hipster. ;)
I made 6 new sanding blocks last week in prep and yeah on the handplanes I learned that less is more on sanding foam! Spend a lot more time looking and planning than sanding.
I am fascinated by sending a file and getting back a "thing." it's amazing.
-
Jason Hendricks is just a west coast rep for Greenroom resin only. You will need to contact the main company on the east coast for the cloth.
Oh man, thanks for the greenroom hookup. I thought you were saying he only stocked resin.
Big, I'm thinking that it will be 6-6-4 on top (w small extra 4 deck patch) and 6-4 on bottom with a fin patch for the quads. I am still 50/50 on going all 4oz. This may be all wrong but the extra thickness/resin "feels" better in my mind but that may be misleading.
A carbon strip on both sides to stiffen it up. It's looking like S4 and E6 unless I can source the S6. I'm checking all around. I can see that eventually as my skills come up I'll want to do carbon rails and such on these thinner boards (due to my size) but I'm not doing that on this one.
The tail is super thin and I want some strength back there. I'll post up the blank dims when I start my months long build thread. Lol.
Most likely going to be a 5 box ProBox install.
It's super exciting to just have the thing in my garage and get to geek out and measure it. I'll start sanding this weekend.
-
How did you make your sanding blocks? Did you make any with foam backing?
I made 6 new sanding blocks last week in prep
-
As for a local supplier of S glass, there are a few. The problem lies in the width. The 38" wide S is usually an 8oz cloth. The 6oz S is 30" cloth and the 4oz S is 27". If you want widths that are less popular (if you can find them) you'll be having it shipped from somewhere? Obviously the SUP widths are a problem. You can off-set your layers then do an extra runner on just the rails.
Here are a few local suppliers I use:
Coastal Composites (626) 930-1111 (Eric in sales) I buy CF and 2oz E glass from them. Call them about S glass.
Bashams surf shop (949) 361-2203 (Brad in the surf getto) I buy my resins, E glass and fin boxes here.
Here's a place in your neck of the woods:
http://www.fiberglasssource.com/sunshop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=340
BTW,
anyone wanting to stay with the trends ::) http://www.fiberglasssource.com/sunshop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1094
-
Fiberglass source/Surf supply is one of my go to places so I called them yesterday and they don't have the wide stuff. Thanks for the other contacts. I will call them.
When you say you can "off-set" your layers, are you saying you can lay two pieces on the board with the 43" wide part going fore and aft so there will be a seam where the two layers overlap?
As for a local supplier of S glass, there are a few. The problem lies in the width. The 38" wide S is usually an 8oz cloth. The 6oz S is 30" cloth and the 4oz S is 27". If you want widths that are less popular (if you can find them) you'll be having it shipped from somewhere? Obviously the SUP widths are a problem. You can off-set your layers then do an extra runner on just the rails.
Here are a few local suppliers I use:
Coastal Composites (626) 930-1111 (Eric in sales) I buy CF and 2oz E glass from them. Call them about S glass.
Bashams surf shop (949) 361-2203 (Brad in the surf getto) I buy my resins, E glass and fin boxes here.
Here's a place in your neck of the woods:
http://www.fiberglasssource.com/sunshop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=340
BTW,
anyone wanting to stay with the trends ::) http://www.fiberglasssource.com/sunshop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1094
-
One full length that hangs and wraps down one rail and one full length that hangs and wraps the other rail. Same on the top. Then add a runner along the rails that laps both sides all the way to the offset. The nose and tail rails will end up with a full extra layer.
BTW, I'm talking about when using the 27" and 30" widths. If you have 43"you'll have a bit of waste. Wastes even more epoxy if you're wet tabling it. Might want to cut it narrower first?
I might add, you got to be careful squeegee'g the fabric when you don't have two rails to keep it tight. If you get a pull or wrinkle while you're squeegee'g it out it sucks. You more than likely won't have a problem if you wet table it. The wet tabled fabric goes on almost pre-preg dry. You usually have a few dry spots you have to pour a little epoxy on while you squeegee it out. If you wet the fabric right on the board, the fabric will kind of float. This is where you'll run into lap problems.
-
Interesting. I just spoke to Eric at Coastal Composites and he said he sells tons of the 27" and 30" wide cloth to SUP guys so maybe they are doing what you described??
How wide would you make the "runner" and would the runner overlap the rail on the deck and the rail on the bottom equally?
One full length that hangs and wraps down one rail and one full length that hangs and wraps the other rail. Same on the top. Then add a runner along the rails that laps both sides all the way to the offset. The nose and tail rails will end up with a full extra layer.
BTW, I'm talking about when using the 27" and 30" widths. If you have 43"you'll have a bit of waste. Wastes even more epoxy if you're wet tabling it. Might want to cut it narrower first?
I might add, you got to be careful squeegee'g the fabric when you don't have two rails to keep it tight. If you get a pull or wrinkle while you're squeegee'g it out it sucks. You more than likely won't have a problem if you wet table it. The wet tabled fabric goes on almost pre-preg dry. You usually have a few dry spots you have to pour a little epoxy on while you squeegee it out. If you wet the fabric right on the board, the fabric will kind of float. This is where you'll run into lap problems.
-
I've only just run them straight down the middle and added the runner which lapped both sides evenly. It's only the mid section that doesn't get the lap. The front and back 1/4 length of the board gets a full lap even with the narrower fabric. I was suggesting the off-set as I think it might turn out cleaner. Layering an bunch of rail pieces just adds more steps and more laps to clean up. I mean more sanding and time too..... The next board I'm glassing is a 23" wide longboard so I won't have to deal with that issue, but I've been thinking about a better way to deal with the narrower fabric on SUP for a while. I'm wondering what others have done to deal with this?
-
Forget the Greenroom for the 43" wide 4 oz S cloth. I got erroneous information yesterday. I just spoke to the main guy there and he said they only sell full rolls which are $1000+. Sorry about that.
One interesting thing he told me is that they glass all of their sups with double 4 oz S top and bottom with a 6 oz deck patch plus footballs around the fin boxes. (I forgot to ask him if the deck patch was S or E but I'm assuming it was S.) I asked him how well they hold up and he said they are really strong and they have to be because those boards go to a rental place down south. They don't vacuum bag them either.
Oh man, thanks for the greenroom hookup.
-
They may be using 2# EPS too.
-
My first Rawson custom was with 2.0 foam, stringer, regular unleaded cloth, 664 64, great board that was flexible and absolutely BULLETPROOF..
-
I'm not totally clear on how you do this but I just started a new thread asking if people are glassing 28"+ wide sup's with cloth that's only 27" to 30" wide here http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,27268.0.html
I've only just run them straight down the middle and added the runner which lapped both sides evenly. It's only the mid section that doesn't get the lap. The front and back 1/4 length of the board gets a full lap even with the narrower fabric. I was suggesting the off-set as I think it might turn out cleaner. Layering an bunch of rail pieces just adds more steps and more laps to clean up. I mean more sanding and time too..... The next board I'm glassing is a 23" wide longboard so I won't have to deal with that issue, but I've been thinking about a better way to deal with the narrower fabric on SUP for a while. I'm wondering what others have done to deal with this?
-
Fiberglass Hawaii has 44" 4oz S glass and 38" 6oz E. Thus my plan for glassing 6-6-4 top.
No need to lap it over.
For my blocks I did 1x3 pine blocks in 11" and then 5.5" so I can use a sheet of sandpaper efficiently. I glue these down with spray cement.
I have 2 or 3 mid density foam ones that I just wrap the paper on those generally as it sticks. I need a sheet of screen for the rough in to put under a soft foam pad to just take off the ridges lightly.
I get tons of hard drives shipped to me for work so I just pull the various packing foams. But a trip to a foam supply will get you tons of off cuts for free or a couple of bucks.
-
Thanks for mentioning Fiberglass Hawaii because I forgot all about them.
Why are you going to use such wide cloth if you aren't going to wrap it around the rail?
The foam you're using for the sanding blocks is foam rubber, right?
Fiberglass Hawaii has 44" 4oz S glass and 38" 6oz E. Thus my plan for glassing 6-6-4 top.
No need to lap it over.
For my blocks I did 1x3 pine blocks in 11" and then 5.5" so I can use a sheet of sandpaper efficiently. I glue these down with spray cement.
I have 2 or 3 mid density foam ones that I just wrap the paper on those generally as it sticks. I need a sheet of screen for the rough in to put under a soft foam pad to just take off the ridges lightly.
I get tons of hard drives shipped to me for work so I just pull the various packing foams. But a trip to a foam supply will get you tons of off cuts for free or a couple of bucks.
-
I'm just buying what I can get. I'm gonna wrap all the layers except the deck and fin patches most likely.
I started with 220 screen but it was snagging and tearing. I moved to a sheet of 220 wrapped on a 4x9" piece of foam rubber (couch cushion type) that was good. But for the initial cut down, once I started getting the feel, I went to a 150 grit for the initial knock down. I'll finish it off with 220 or 320 before spackle.
I'm going slow so it's gonna take a few hours to finish it, whereas a pro would knock this out in an hour. But I'm having a ball so far. I'll start a build thread in a day or so when some photos build up.
-
Screens are really for doing rails and they take off a lot more than you think. Timmy Patterson showed me how to finishes a board that he got back from a CNC. He goes over the top and bottom with an 8" disc sander with the yellow soft pad. I think he had a 180 pad to start. That's what I've been using. Then he has another 8" yellow soft sanding disc he just holds with his hand. He also has a soft rectangular sanding pad that he does the rails and sharp contours with. He uses a micro plane to get the stringer down. He likes to get them below the foam line because the stringer will swell a little when you put epoxy on it. It took him about 20 minutes to detail one of his short boards. Timmy's a second generation shaper and has it down to a science.
-
I'll get some photos and a proper build thread going but TD, I'd say an SUP, if you got it dialed might take an hour or two.
I took about 6-8 hours but I was studying and moving super slow all by hand and no aggressive grits. The next one will be less than half that. I avoided power tools but even manual I can get it down to a couple hours. If you know the shape, it's faster but I was finding the shape on this one.
I used 120-150 grit on a soft foam pad then follow it up with 220. If something was gonna be flat, I finished it with an 11" wood block to get it dead flat. I learned my lesson on the hand planes. No dips or lumps allowed!
The concaves were weird but not that big of a deal. The rails leave a lot of room to mess up. I was trying not to ruin the really well shaped blank I had by being ham handed with the paper.
It was super fun all in all and yeah next time adding some power tools in, with care, will take it way down. The deck could be done in minutes. I'm having a ball. I wanna do a hand shape prone board now.
-
Have you found a cheaper source for the round soft yellow pads or will I have to bite the bullet and spend $30+ on one?
Did Patterson use dense foam for his soft rectangular shaped sanding pad that looks like an egg-crate on the side you hold?
He goes over the top and bottom with an 8" disc sander with the yellow soft pad. I think he had a 180 pad to start. That's what I've been using. Then he has another 8" yellow soft sanding disc he just holds with his hand. He also has a soft rectangular sanding pad that he does the rails and sharp contours with.
-
surfcowboy - This might be too late for you but Greenlight has a 20% off sale now until Sunday.
-
Have you found a cheaper source for the round soft yellow pads or will I have to bite the bullet and spend $30+ on one?
Did Patterson use dense foam for his soft rectangular shaped sanding pad that looks like an egg-crate on the side you hold?
He goes over the top and bottom with an 8" disc sander with the yellow soft pad. I think he had a 180 pad to start. That's what I've been using. Then he has another 8" yellow soft sanding disc he just holds with his hand. He also has a soft rectangular sanding pad that he does the rails and sharp contours with.
I don't remember exactly. It was probably 3 years ago. He's my neighbor, so I'll ask him next time I see him.
-
Glass all ordered.
Deck will be:
6oz 38" E glass X 2
4oz 30" S glass X1
Bottom will be:
6oz 38" E glass X 1
4oz 30" S glass X1
I'm going to not get full rail wraps but I couldn't easily find bigger 4oz S. I'm fine with it.
There will be a stripe of carbon tape down the deck and bottom for stiffness and I'll see how I feel about the tail rail but I'm strongly considering leaving them plain just to see what the flex is like. I can always add it later and cover it with some 2oz or something. This board is an experiment.
Hoping to glass this weekend, we will see, depending on how good the surf is.
-
Pics, cowboy, pics! Sounds very cool! I think everybody on here has more patience and pays more attention to detail than I do. Good inspiration! Pics! Let's see em'! You've been teasing us too long! And definitely a strong enough board. Have I said it yet? Pics, cowboy, pics!
-
Sorry, I forgot :)
-
Did you decide to omit a second layer of 6 oz on the deck because you're doing a strip of carbon down the middle?
Glass all ordered.
Deck will be:
6oz 38" E glass X 2
4oz 30" S glass X1
Bottom will be:
6oz 38" E glass X 1
4oz 30" S glass X1
I'm going to not get full rail wraps but I couldn't easily find bigger 4oz S. I'm fine with it.
There will be a stripe of carbon tape down the deck and bottom for stiffness and I'll see how I feel about the tail rail but I'm strongly considering leaving them plain just to see what the flex is like. I can always add it later and cover it with some 2oz or something. This board is an experiment.
Hoping to glass this weekend, we will see, depending on how good the surf is.
-
I lent 5 yards of 6oz and got 16 yards of 7.5oz in return with an option to buy another 16 yards at a discount. I will wet out a sample today to see if there are issues.
Would 7.5oz + 3k carbon (under pad deck patch) + 4oz top and 7.5oz + 4oz bottom be enough for a recreational flat water board with 1.5# foam and plywood stringer? Would the 4oz being 'S' versus 'E' be enough to swing a decision? Or go double 7.5 and skip the 4 ?
Thanks, J
-
Magenta, that says 6oz times 2 above. I've got the 3" stripe, and 6-6-4 going on it.
Jrandy, It's a tough call. I'm conservative and so I'd do the double 7.5 with a wet out table to keep it nice and lean on the resin. But I'd defer to TD or one of the more experienced guys on that one. I'm putting down 16oz (6-6-4) on mine with a deck patch where I stand (which I have to remember to do, making myself a note!) but I have no feel yet for how that layup will feel when standing.
On a flatwater board, if you're not standing there I know people go really light, but that's more racing and not a recreational board. If kids are messing with it, go big. lol
-
I lent 5 yards of 6oz and got 16 yards of 7.5oz in return with an option to buy another 16 yards at a discount. I will wet out a sample today to see if there are issues.
Would 7.5oz + 3k carbon (under pad deck patch) + 4oz top and 7.5oz + 4oz bottom be enough for a recreational flat water board with 1.5# foam and plywood stringer? Would the 4oz being 'S' versus 'E' be enough to swing a decision? Or go double 7.5 and skip the 4 ?
Thanks, J
I think your lay-up sounds good, jrandy. Especially with your stringer. My surf style boards are just 2 1/2 layers of 4 oz S on top without stringer and they're plenty strong. Granted they're not 12'6", but I think you're plenty covered. Please post up pics. We'd love to see your project!
-
I lent 5 yards of 6oz and got 16 yards of 7.5oz in return with an option to buy another 16 yards at a discount. I will wet out a sample today to see if there are issues.
Would 7.5oz + 3k carbon (under pad deck patch) + 4oz top and 7.5oz + 4oz bottom be enough for a recreational flat water board with 1.5# foam and plywood stringer? Would the 4oz being 'S' versus 'E' be enough to swing a decision? Or go double 7.5 and skip the 4 ?
Thanks, J
I agree. You'll be fine with that lay-up. Plus you have 1.5# foam which helps. The 3K is probably 5.7oz Plain weave? That will be plenty for under the deck pad.
-
Thanks everyone!
Yes, the 3K is 5.7 oz plain weave CF found online and ordered by phone. I went to the local supplier for some 4oz and sundries.
I did some tests with the 7.5oz: 2 square feet 'clear' over spackled foam and 8" x 12" over yellow and blue acrylic painted foam as an afterthought to use up the extra epoxy. Nothing fancy, just mix-pour-spread- and pull with a squeegee. The cloth looked ok getting lammed (other than feeling thick) but afterwards I saw some signs that I may have been a bit dry. The dry spots really show over the blue. Adhesion to the foam in both cases is good. I was not planning on a wet-out table or vacuum bagging, should I be rethinking this?
I'll put some more pictures of the build up in the 12'-6 x 30 design tips thread. -J
-
I read that S cloth is 20% stronger than E. (Although at Swaylocks Greg Loehr said there is only a 5% difference.)
Does anyone know how well a lighter all S cloth schedule would hold up verses an all E cloth schedule like this...
S CLOTH:
BOTTOM: Two layers of 4s
DECK: 4s + 4s + 4s deck patch
E CLOTH:
BOTTOM: 6e + 4e
DECK: 6e + 6e + 4e deck patch
-
Reinvigorating this one a year later.
Adding what I've learned from some other boards and prepping for the next build.
Review - Simmons was 6e-6e-4s deck (with another patch of 4s) and I've gotten some pretty good dents where I stand. (don't think that's uncommon for a non sandwich board.)
I'm considering a 4-4-4 with a 4 patch in standing area for this one or maybe some sort of wood lam in the standing area. (Don't want to over complicate so the jury is out, but..) 4-4-6 (all E) might also be an option with only the 6 wrapping the rails.
Bottom was 6-4 and I'm going 4-4 as I'm not that hard on my stuff.
Need to go check my notes on the haterade build and see what that was but that was plenty strong. The Simmons is near bulletproof and with better technique I'm aiming for lighter. Jury out on wet-out table but I'll probably do it again with something of this size if I can get a better table setup. (Saw Horses, what a concept?) I did Home Depot buckets and nearly broke my back last time.
There's something to be said for buying glass in bulk and just using the same stuff, so I may be a 4oz convert.
-
My Phoenix is 100% s glass, non-sandwich and developed defined standing channels. I have noticed that boards produced after mine tend to have CF deck patches. I'm not convinced that a CF patch is equal to a good sandwich though.
In my case the standing channels are non-issue/cosmetic and a fair trade-off for the light weight.
ed. (Oh crap, I'm contradicting my post May 2015 post)
-
My preference in order...Carbon, S2 Glass, E glass, Kevlar.
If it's a wave board it's usually S2glass. My personal experience has been S2 of equal weight laminate is much stronger stiffer and less prown to pressure ding than e-glass. By a fairly wide margin...considerably more than 5%. But if your building boards for a living it would only be human nature to down play materials that cut into your "margin". Plus the you can't sell as many boards if they last too long.
This is the IKEA generation that gets board with thing on increasing shorter time cycles. I have a sneeky suspicion those of us that have been truely bitten by the SUP bug get board with the shape long before the board wears out...if it's a decent board to start with.
The only reason I would use e-glass is because it's cheaper...or that's all you have access to...but with the web you can get anything you want no matter where you live...so much for that excuse🤑...
Keep in mind when your spending the time to build your own board the cloth is only part of the expense. I like to use the best stuff I can get my hands on...you never know if the next board you create is going to "the Magic board"...wouldn't it be a bummer if you built it like a throwaway test shape?
Plus you want to recoup some of your expense and the better you build it the more chance of getting a portion of your money out of it for the next build..,
If someone wants an all around shape, unless their adamant about building... its cheaper to buy...average person will pay so much for the materials it's not economical. Now if you want to build an exotic race board that's when it starts paying off...if you got the chops/shop/tools you can make a $4,500 full carbon race board for about $800-$900 in materials. Throw another $215-$ 325 if you want a full 3/16" divinycell wrap.
If your going to spend the most precious thing in life...your time...make it count 😏
-
Bean, we all change and grow man. ;) Wish more people could admit when they contradict themselves these days.
FL, Thank you. Can I ask, based on what tests do you make the call on the S glass? Not being contrary but my E glass boards are solid as a rock and a lot of pros really doubt the difference that S makes. I don't know but I'm asking. If you've owned similar boards in E and S or if you have owned a ton of boards or are a pro shaper, let me know. As I said, not challenging but really wanting specifics. Online all I see are mentions of this and specs but not a lot of stories or real experience of head to head info on S vs E.
I talk to a lot of pro glassers (they make more for exotic materials) and they don't really encourage spending the extra on a SUP. I could see it on a thin skinned short board but I'm going to have 3-4 layers where I stand and 2 to 4 layers on the rails. I'm not sure how much I'd notice if it was stiffer ( or even if I'd want that in a SUP.)
As to my time, I get that. I do this as a hobby, I'm gonna build something for fun. And I'm not really in it to be cheap but I don't want to pay more and deal with less manageable cloth (S is a lot stiffer to deal with) unless I'm getting a real benefit. I have enough S for deck patches or might buy some carbon to experiment with that as a patch. I already use carbon tape as a stringer replacement (though I'm considering a Hayden shapes style carbon rail for this one.)
I can't see E lasting any less long as long as the deck patch keeps the foot wells from delamming in a reasonable time. I'm pretty easy on boards. But I am concerned about landfill. (i am committed to stripping the glass and recycling my old foam, btw.)
Btw, I don't think I'd ever need Kevlar etc. in a board for myself, I'm just not thinking that high performance. If I was, I think I'd want that in a prone board over my SUP.
If you look back a lot of this was covered but I wanted to keep adding to the knowledge base here. Thanks for the feedback and FL if you have some stories to tell, I'd love to hear your experience.
-
Also forgot, most importantly. Can't find S glass wider than 30" anywhere. Most is 27" unless you buy a roll.
-
Also forgot, most importantly. Can't find S glass wider than 30" anywhere. Most is 27" unless you buy a roll.
I talked to the guys at Greenroon recently and they told me the wide S glass is getting hard to come by, and I wanted to buy a full roll. I bought a 42" tight weave 6 oz E glass from Thayercraft that I really like. And only $3 a yard shipped to your door. Wets out far easier than I would have thought and drapes nicely. I'll post a pic if anyone is interested.
-
Hit me with a shot of that E. As I started looking for glass to order I see that there was a reason I went 6 oz, it's the only glass that comes over 30".
I'm thinking at least a layer of 6 to wrap the rails with 4 oz over the top to smooth it.
Speaking of, I get bubbles in my lam in the 6oz bottom layer. Should I be rolling that or what? it was worse on the first board, wet out table method but even this last one had a spot or two.
-
Surfcowboy...Im happy to respond to your questions but I'm burried at work🚀 at the moment ...as soon as I get my head above water 🌊
-
On my most recent boards I kept it simple: 4+4 E glass bottom, 4+4 with 3/4 6oz deck patch or 4+6 with 3/4 4oz deck patch (all E glass) on top. Has worked very well for me.
-
Hit me with a shot of that E. As I started looking for glass to order I see that there was a reason I went 6 oz, it's the only glass that comes over 30".
I'm thinking at least a layer of 6 to wrap the rails with 4 oz over the top to smooth it.
Speaking of, I get bubbles in my lam in the 6oz bottom layer. Should I be rolling that or what? it was worse on the first board, wet out table method but even this last one had a spot or two.
Biggreen, I'd like to see what you're doing too.
On the current 12'-6" project I was concerned about bubbles, resin drain, and dry lamination. So I put the easy 4oz 'E' down first by hand to make a hard surface for working with this 7.5 oz 'E' I have which is a tight enough weave to make it harder to wet out.
On the bottom I did a wet-out of the 7.5oz cloth before putting it on the board, on the top I did 3 pours: one for the sunken deck, one for starboard stringer to rail, and one for port stringer to rail.
The wet-out went fine other than I trimmed the cloth first to save resin, which made placement difficult on the bottom. I used up all my working time with Kwik Kick moving the cloth and barely got it all down before it got too stiff to rework.
The multiple pour went OK too except for a couple of dry spots between the pours where the resin was was not wetted 100% through the fabric. I think this is caused by the first batch resin hitting the top of the cloth and it prevented the second and third batch from getting through to the bottom.
I am also considering a slower resin system for laminating SUP's and saving the KK for fill coats and smaller boards.
Overall this board one is 4'E'+7.5'E' each side with a 3K (6oz) plain weave carbon fiber deck patch that has an angled 2" lip on all four sides and some afterthought Vectornet transitions from glass to carbon, nose and tail. In discussion we concluded that my transisitons from carbon to glass were stress risers. I tacked the Vecto So I tacked some Vectornet on the top for kicks and giggles before the 7.5oz, which was not the best move in hindsight. I should have done them together to reduce the 'telegraphing' effect of the diamond weave and prevention of dry spots.
As always, I am not an expert, just telling what happened for me in the case it proves useful to others.
-
SUPFl thanks, trust me, I feel ya on the work thing. It's taken me almost a year to get this dang longboard out of my garage.
Jrandy, I did a poly multi pour recently and yeah, over lap is key I found. Also I did the same cloth cut to save resin on my first board and it bit me too. I now leave it square and just trim it a little.
I've moved to buying and extra bottle of slow hardener with my kits for lamming. Then I use the fast stuff for everything else. Way easier and then the fill and hot coats still go faster.
-
Good stuff guys!
I've shaped 20 sup's (CAD Files) this last year, and some surfboards and a couple kneeboards. Ed Angulo and my brother Jerry Fanning (RIP) helped inspire me to shape SUP's. I live in NY. for golf season (work), but I'm in Cali in the winter months. I'm chiming in because, I too am in search of the perfect lay up. I've had boards done by Cor-Vac, FL. Pure Glass - Future Flex, CA. Terance Brandt at Flagship Composites H.B. and Alan Beels in SD. CA.
The Cor-Vac's Inegra vacuum bagged is strong and very light. My 1st one got deck dents pretty fast 6/4 deck, so had the second one get an extra deck layer and that was key. The Future Flex is also light not quite as strong as the previous in the deck department, but again 2 layers etc. I had Terance do S2 6 bottom S2 6/4/4 deck with a carbon stringer and Vector Net 3/4 top and full bottom. This lay up has been the best but also the most costly, but is still very light, so you do get what you pay for. Alan Beels is into getting the board strong, so he did a fill coat, 8oz. top and bottom + 4/4 deck and Vector deck patch. Very strong and a bit heavier as expected. All of the boards I've done are 1.5# and stringer-less. None have broke so far;)
I've got a couple more in the works and was thinking of doing my own glassing, basement project for personal use etc. and was thinking of vacuum bagging and doing a little Vector and carbon also. The fall gets a little cold and boring so I'm up for the challenge!
-
Fanman, do it. It's a blast to play around with. I haven't done bagging yet but hand lama are fairly easy and I'm happy with the results. Especially using the wet out table to keep the resin ratio lean.
-
The vacom chould have two ways one taking of the epoxy that he can take back the others way is just help with hard places on the board and it was easy than what I think
-
im not sure how much dave daum reads this but i have been watching all his laminating vids on Facebook and instagram and i don't think there anyway you would describe his lams as lean,they look like they use a lot of resin but maybe that gives it a little more durability but i have only seen a few of his boards a long time ago.
i don't think there is a huge saving vac baging glass its, more for things like carbon with a looser weave were you want to compress it to reduce the volume of resin ore perhaps vector net were it can pool resin. The good thing about baking though is you do draw some resin into the blank so you fill some of the small gaps between the beads giving a better bond and less prone to taking on water if you get a ding.
i still use haven't found the need to use anything more fancy than good quality e glass on my surfboards.
-
Have had several boards from King's. Two vac bagged innegra, a heavy ( 10 oz log at my request), 664 66, 444 44, 4444 444. They also do vectra net, and carbon.
Many options available which I am sure is also true for any traditional shaped boards produced by major manufacturers. I know Infinity, L41, Kazuma, Rawson just to name a few offer options..
-
Great ideas and inspiration! Can't wait🏄
-
MrBig, how was that 4444 top? That is kind of what I'm thinking for the next one. Mostly 444 with a patch. How was that one?
-
im not sure how much dave daum reads this but i have been watching all his laminating vids on Facebook and instagram and i don't think there anyway you would describe his lams as lean,they look like they use a lot of resin but maybe that gives it a little more durability but i have only seen a few of his boards a long time ago.
i don't think there is a huge saving vac baging glass its, more for things like carbon with a looser weave were you want to compress it to reduce the volume of resin ore perhaps vector net were it can pool resin. The good thing about baking though is you do draw some resin into the blank so you fill some of the small gaps between the beads giving a better bond and less prone to taking on water if you get a ding.
i still use haven't found the need to use anything more fancy than good quality e glass on my surfboards.
Dave Daum has an engineering background and is a very tech guy. He keeps his V-bag set-up under wraps because very few glassers in the area V-bag. His race boards are light.
I feel the same about V-bagging only where it makes a noticeable difference. Carbon race boards with recessed foot wells the V-bag is optimal. A surfboard that's E or S glass, a hand layup is fine. Seal with spackle then a thin coat of epoxy w / micro balloons. Lightly sand and remove residue. Wet table and bake (100 deg all night). Repeat other side then Sand, sand, sand.......Remove residue (drag a stretched out piece of masking tape face down back and forth up and down the board, Hot coat and bake again.
-
MrBig, how was that 4444 top? That is kind of what I'm thinking for the next one. Mostly 444 with a patch. How was that one?
I was at my friends glass shop the other day and I was talking to him about the glassing schedule on a sup he had on a glassing stand. He was telling me the foam was 1.5# and the guy the board was for weighed about 215 lbs. He was going to add an extra layer of 6 in the standing area just because of the guys weight.
-
Vacuum bagging is pretty much a necessity for molds, or for compound curves where you need to get the fabric to behave. It's kind of overkill for ordinary boards except that you can squeeze a lot of resin out of anything oversaturated. If I want a part to be super light I use a perforated barrier over the peel ply and just sacrifice the breather. I get a slightly starved but fully adhered and incorporated layer. light and strong but not pretty and not waterproof. For water stuff I do a conventional wet layup on top of that layer with no prep. the texture is perfect for adhesion.
-
Cowboy, The 4444 is great! Same thickness as a 66 but much stronger and less prone to pressure dings dents and such. If you never are near the front of the board and are heavy, the 444 with a patch (either 4 or 6) works fine as well.
I am a lightweight and will step hard up there so I prefer the 4444!
Here on Cape Cod we have nasty shorebreak with rocks imbedded in the sand. A nasty combination to say the least. This is why I worry as much, if not more about glass strength on the bottom of my boards.
Jimmy Lewis posted that he glasses any custom SUPS he shapes 664 top and bottom. Strong and as he is a very experienced laminator i.e. knows how to get the resin OUT, not super heavy.
My understanding on Innegra, and the need for vac bagging it, is that it has a tendency to float. Ed Angulo, another very experienced laminator, confirmed that in another great conversation we had regarding Innegra.
I know Dave does it on his race boards, which also all use 1 oz foam. Crazy light, carbon cloth lay-ups.
My next surf sup is going to be of the carbon variety.
I feel blessed to have had conversations with some very experienced shapers, many of whom, also started, as laminators. Not uncommon in the "old days"!
I once had an ESA "disposable" contest board made from early open cell eps foam glassed 4 with a patch top, and 4 on the bottom. Light light light!! 4 pounds. Made by Greg Loehr back in the day!!
Here are some pics of New England board tests!!
-
Dang man, y'all are hard on boards lol. Thank you for all the info. It's truly a brain trust on here and much friendlier than the other build forums too.
I was considering going even lighter on my bottoms, but then again I surf mushy points and don't run into the rocks much.
I've got to find a source for 4oz wide glass. Backyarders don't often buy full rolls. My 4oz has all been deck and bottom covers 27" wide and then I lap with the 38" wide 6oz.
No matter what I want to do, for now I can only source a 644 / 64 with a deck patch. Need to go visit some laminator buddies and buy off of their rolls.
-
Cowboy, the best deal I found last year for 4 oz S when factoring in everything (shipping and sales tax) was at Fiberglass Hawaii.
-
Is it make better sup if you build him with not just carbon and glass more advanced innegra or carbon with Kevlar. Thanks
-
Keeping this one going. Just found a new source for wide S Glass.
http://stores.ebay.com/momentumcomposites/
Guys from New Mexico and I'm going to hit them up, they have wide glass of all types.