Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Wind Powered => Topic started by: dabigkahuna on July 22, 2014, 08:10:12 PM
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Are there any WindSUP's out there that could be considered an "early planer"? I tried my Starboard Avanti, then a Formula Windsurfer, now I'm wondering if there might be something half way between the two that's worth looking at?
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you want smthng. that planes earlier than Formula?
I doubt it exists...
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I've tried a few and found the 10'10'' Nalu the best.. Must be the channels..
http://vimeo.com/67433530
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Are there any WindSUP's out there that could be considered an "early planer"? I tried my Starboard Avanti, then a Formula Windsurfer, now I'm wondering if there might be something half way between the two that's worth looking at?
I chatted with Steve Gottlieb (Aerotech designer and Exocet importer) about this at his store maybe 1 1/2 years ago. We were both on the same page about windSUPs not getting it done windsurf wise. A more windsurf rocker would make them a lot more fun. I had just shaped myself one (windsurf rocker) and it was a blast.
He had just sailed some prototype Exocet's that had windsurf rockers and notched tails that made them SUP surf better than you would expect. I don't know the model names they were given, but with some asking around, you might be able to figure out what Exocet he was talking about. They would have been new to the 2014 lineup. Provided you don't mind the un-cool tail in the board when you SUP surf it. But hey, if it works good enough, what the heck.
After spending the last 1 1/2 years windsurfing my strapless windsurfer (looks like a SUP) we became curious about these new class of real windsurfers, with straps, that look like shortboard SUPs. Thin rails, flat decks, large deck pads. Same widths as SUPs.
They are believed by some, to be the future of board design. The reasoning is the much thinner boards, maintain the control and ease of use of narrow boards, while the width and short length provide nimble handling with early planing. The wife and I are sold on the concept. We sold our old narrow boards. We're now windsurfing boards we would have considered for kooks only and loving them. They are that good! Here is an old video talking about the concept of the design. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi6SuIselNM
We bought the equivalent from JP, called the Magic Ride. I've SUPed mine. The dimensions are identical to most mini-SIM sups. 7'10 x 29.9 wide. I did add a full SUP pad to ours. RRD got that part right with the large pad. JP got it wrong using pads just at the straps.
It's funny, but after windsurfing the Magic Rides and going back to our old Freestyle Wave JPs, we just hated the Freestyle Waves. They felt like trying to windsurf round logs. Standing so high up above the water, on a deck surface that felt completely round. The Magic Rides felt like our beloved SUPs. Flat decks, low to the water. So much more at home and comfortable. More like a surfboard under your feet versus a log. When the wind quits, doesn't matter. You still cruise upwind like a hero, just like you do on a windSUP.
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@DW - Sounds like you're thinking along the same lines that I am. My Avanti is 11'2"x36" x 230 liters. My Formula windsurfer is roughly 9' x 39" x 170 liters. What keeps my Avanti from planing is it's massive rocker, massive weight and fin configuration. I think I could SUP (on flat water) my Formula board but dragging around that 70 cm deep fin would be pretty limiting. And the Formula board would be worthless in any waves at all. I was wondering if there might be something somewhere in between the two. Just a small amount of rocker (to handle chop and some waves but not so much as to limit planing), wide enough for stability, and a fin box that supports deep fins. The RRD Firemove and that JP sound like they might be the ticket.
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When I test session SUPed my 118 Magic Ride, I just swapped the fin out for 10" wave sailing fin. It worked great.
If I ever go to the beach to windsurf and the wind dies, but the surf is good, and didn't have my real SUPs with me, I'd surf the Magic Ride and have a blast.
My Magic Ride is full vee bottom. It may explain part of what makes it so comfortable when it gets choppy sailing. And part of why it surfs so well for a windsurf rocker.
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hmmmmmmmm... Gotta try one.
True, my 11'2 Naish Nalu has way too much rocker to take off and plane (until I am standing on the fi and then 7/8's of the board is out of the water in a giant wheelie).
Which Firemove you reckon? 120L (29.5" wide)
I've got a place I can probably try the JP Magic Ride 118
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Anything bigger out there? I just checked the Magic Ride and Firemove and they both top out at around 130/140 liters. I'd really like to find something around 170 liters.
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Flat decks, low to the water. So much more at home and comfortable. More like a surfboard under your feet versus a log. When the wind quits, doesn't matter. You still cruise upwind like a hero, just like you do on a windSUP.
Hey DW --
Thanks to you (and everyone) for this thread -- this is highly relevant to me and, I expect, most windsurfers gone to SUP. Could you expound a little bit more on how well the ~120liter Magic Ride does in low wind? One of the things I love about my 12' Ron House custom is how easy it is to sail in up-and-down winds (no hula!) and getting back upwind to an offshore launch. The downside is the limited top end and long turnig radius (although they aren't bad). Do you find the thin, wide, short boards are good in highly gusty and/or low wind conditions?
Thanks!
Andy
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Could you expound a little bit more on how well the ~120liter Magic Ride does in low wind?
Andy
Planing threshold with a 6.9m is about where a 12m kite is. Probably 13 mph. As long as its gusting to 15mph, mixed with that 13, its fun. I'm 172 lbs right now.
The most enjoyable point for the wife and I, is really how well it does when the wind is crappy. I'm talking about plane a little, putt-putt a little and not care in the least that you're not planing. You still stay upwind! :D In the ocean with current! :D We up-haul with ease in huge rolling seas and no wind ;D ;D ;D My wife really loves that part. Me too actually. Oh, and no fancy footwork or board dancing required.
We stopped sailing SUPs completely.
During one of our recent ocean sessions, we were both talking about how we were really thermal cloud windsurfing the ocean. No wind, then blowing like stink. (normal conditions for lake sailors). We were certain, us or any other windsurfers that day, without those style boards, would have spent the day sitting on the beach.
Of course big windsurfers for guys who live on lakes have always been available, but those boards never worked in the ocean. They'd be out of control and expert windsurfers would hate them in the surf.
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Thanks for the information, DW - sounds like a really good option for me. Time to start saving my pennies!
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If I ever go to the beach to windsurf..., and didn't have my real SUPs with me, I'd surf the Magic Ride and have a blast.
DW, you are kidding , right? ;)
that scenario is hard to envision.... :D :D :D
with regards to the ease of uphauling this is mostly related to the width, not to the volume, IMHO
so is shlogging upwind, wide board, easy balance, plus so easy to step on windward rail which acts like a giant keel
a while ago I bought Fanatic Ray 130, it is 130 l, 73 cm wide. It is dubbed as "free race" and I was a bit afraid if my skill is enough...
turned out it is fantastic board. goes faster, much faster than anything else. jibes easily... because I go to the jibe with so much more speed when I flip I still have so much spedd...
I sail it with 7.0 Behaves really good in overpwering conditions, in chop (like I coulda be already on 6.0+100 liters). In short I was surprised and really happy... I guess I was underestimating my skills...
But with 8.5 it is a bit too small... when the wind dies... (when I am powered everything is hunkydorry). Tough to uphaul 8.5 in the chop when it just died for example.
So I just bought Fanatic Ray 145. It is 81 cm wide. The idea is to replace my Formula. My biggest sail is 8.5 and I hope it will work with Ray 145.
I off course loose early planning threshold, but extend my wind range when it blows. Formula is the early planner, but its wind range is so narrow - few more knots and it is getting really scary... (basically like any other board, it has a wind range, but it is very narrow)... when it really goes and flies from the smallest ramp, and lands, with a gunshot noise... or when it hits the bump... its like hitting the brake....
Of course my comments have nothing to do with WindSUP, and windsurfing in the ocean.
my wsrfng is all on the lake...
and I have no understanding of rocker, vee, thin rails....
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Alap,
When I load my truck up with windsurf gear and 4WD 4 miles on the beach to hit our windsurf spot, there are no SUPs on the truck. Too much hassle making room for them. But there is always room for 2 paddles. Of the windsurf boards I have tried to SUP, all were pretty awful. Except the Magic Ride. It's at least decent fun.
Agree, its something I would do rarely though. I'm not surf starved, or wind starved, since I live at the beach in NC. A state famous for wind and waves.
I also would never own a sail bigger than 6.9. Nobody around here needs one bigger. We just never go that long without wind.
Bigger boards and sails are like big kites. Pouring big money down a hole for little reward. If I lived inland I'd feel different.
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thats true, of course if you live in the area that requires a quiver of two or three sails thts great, and even better if the biggest you need is 6.9
its nice to live in the Gorge or on Maui, or in SF bay area.. or in NC...
but the original post was about light air sails, and light air boards, for the area that rarely sees wind, thats the reason I replied about Formula, 145 liters, 8.5 sail 9 (btw this 8.5 is Retro, practically all my sails are Retro, from 4.5 to 8.5)
Also agree that buying the equipment to cover outlier conditions is not the best investment, but we are not talking about investment here.
Yesterday I sailed 100 km winds. I forgot my 3.6 at home (junior Alzheimer?), and my smallest was 3.9 on 75 liters. Massively, massively overpowered. Multiple airs, in the lulls rode a dozen waves. not a single attempt to jibe (couldn't just sheet on the reach, oversheeting for the jibe would be simply impossible. just long (couple miles) reaches, dismount, wtrstrt, repeat...
Two hours of scary fun. Waves head high on the prairie lake. One friend was on 3.3 and another was on 3.1
Am I buying 3.3 or 3.1? may be... may be modern 3.5 to replace my old dacron 3.6 (my 3.9 is newer generation, few years, so I downhauled it really strong yesterday)
but with a clear understanding tat it will be used once in a few years... not the first item on my list...
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Anything bigger out there? I just checked the Magic Ride and Firemove and they both top out at around 130/140 liters. I'd really like to find something around 170 liters.
JP also makes the Xcite Ride Plus at 160 liters. For 2014 those were redesigned to be a bit thinner and wider than previous generations but not quite to the same extreme as the Magic Ride. But if you need more than the 132 liters from the largest MagicRide it's worth looking at. One other option is the Super Lightwind. it's a bit wider still (think of it as a cross between an Xcite Ride and a Formula board) but I've paddled it and because of the parallel rails and flat rocker it paddles well. It won't be as much fun to paddle in surf though because the width continues further back than it does in the Xcite Ride and especially the MagicRide.
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Are there any WindSUP's out there that could be considered an "early planer"? I tried my Starboard Avanti, then a Formula Windsurfer, now I'm wondering if there might be something half way between the two that's worth looking at?
I have the Exocet WindSUP 11'8". It is definitely an early-planing and fast board that is the closest I think anyone has come to makeing a true combination of a SUP and a great-planing formula type windsurfer. With the powerbox finbox and outboard footstrap positions you can put a big fin in it and sail it as if it were a slalom or formula style windsurfing board. With center footstraps or strapless it's good as a windsurfing waveboard (in mellow waves) and it sups pretty well, too.
Here's a video where I'm sailing it fast in flat water with a 9.5 sail. http://jimbodouglass.blogspot.com/2012/10/got-new-tractor-wheeeooo-doggies.html
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Are there any WindSUP's out there that could be considered an "early planer"? I tried my Starboard Avanti, then a Formula Windsurfer, now I'm wondering if there might be something half way between the two that's worth looking at?
I have the Exocet WindSUP 11'8". l
James, I've really enjoyed following your Blog over the years...your foray into kiting, then back again to windsurfing and SUP...
Welcome to the Standup Zone!
MAX
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James, really like your blog. If you had to choose 1 board for wind sup would it be the 11+ Exocet? Supplementary question, has anything better come along to sup sail in your opinion? - Cheers!
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Looking forward to some good sessions on my 8'11" Hammer WindSUP...
This was a SUPer lightwind sesh...rigged a 5.3m2...would have preferred my 5.8m2 Superfreak...but, was in my wifey's van...
Regardless, I think most all of the kiters packed it in...or, were in the process...
http://youtu.be/fS1wKahAK5s
Effortlessly goes to weather...pops on a plane...feels fast and slippery...and, on the wave face...well, quite frankly, there's nothing better that I have been on...
BTW, I've ridden the Exocets...I personally would rather have 3' less swing weight and don't need that length waterline...but, we can certainly build a custom Hammer at any length with a mast track that i know would give anything out there a run for it's money...
http://supsports.com/standup-paddle-boards/hammer-series/
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James, really like your blog. If you had to choose 1 board for wind sup would it be the 11+ Exocet? Supplementary question, has anything better come along to sup sail in your opinion? - Cheers!
James, really like your blog. If you had to choose 1 board for wind sup would it be the 11+ Exocet? Supplementary question, has anything better come along to sup sail in your opinion? - Cheers!
Hey Flathead,
The 11'8" is a heavy beast, but I think it's still the best all-around windsurf paddleboard out there. If I had to switch boards I'd probably just get the same board again, but in the lighter wood construction.
The length gives it lots of glide so it's smooth and fast in flatwater SUP and sub-planing windsurfing conditions. With the daggerboard down you can sail a very high angle into the wind, which is useful in a variety of situations such as "explore the lake," "get back upwind to catch another wave," "prevent beginner from drifting downwind," and "return to the beach when the wind shifts offshore."
The volume, width, rail shapes, large fin option, and outboard footstrap setup make it plane early and let it sail in full-speed "locked in" style over flat or bumpy terrain. Yet with a small fin and inboard footstraps it's loose enough to do fun turns on a swell or wave. Footstraps help a lot with the awkwardness of carrying a big heavy board and sail into and out of the surf.
It's nearest competition, which might be superior in some situations, would be the the Exocet Curve 11'5", which is 10 cm narrower and 50 liters less volume with no daggerboard. Very fast planing, nimble, and good at catching waves with sail power, but reportedly doesn't pick up waves as naturally with paddle power.
Another similar board is the 10'0" windsup, which I have yet to try. Same construction, footstrap setup and daggerboard features as the 11'8" but a lot shorter. Should have reduced swing weight and do better turns on waves.
Exocet has a 10'2" and 9'2" windsup with thruster fin setups and no daggerboards that some people love but others who like the 11'8 and 11'5 aren't as crazy about. Apparently they're really good on the wave but not as good at early planing and upwind sailing. I'd like to try one for myself.
Then there are a bazillion different sailable sups that have a more typical "surf rocker" tail without the exocet stair-step tail to enhance water release for planing. Some of them have flat enough rockers to plane when given a good breeze (AHD SeaLion and Wardog's Hammer look interesting) but my experience has been that they're pretty sluggish about going upwind and planing, so they're not really fun to sail unless you have good waves and/or lots of wind. And if you have lots of wind you might as well be on a true windsurfing shortboard.
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Then there are a bazillion different sailable sups that have a more typical "surf rocker" tail without the exocet stair-step tail to enhance water release for planing. Some of them have flat enough rockers to plane when given a good breeze (AHD SeaLion and Wardog's Hammer look interesting) but my experience has been that they're pretty sluggish about going upwind and planing, so they're not really fun to sail unless you have good waves and/or lots of wind. And if you have lots of wind you might as well be on a true windsurfing shortboard.
Aloha FWS,
I hear what you are saying...
I have over 3 decades of what speed, early planing, beating to weather, & windsurfing fun is all about...etc...;-)
I don't enjoy shlogging...stuck in molasses...holding up the laundry...pumping to fall off of a plane...etc...
I wouldn't have even bothered to mention my Hammer SUP design if I didn't think that it was a better mouse trap than what I've been on...not sluggish...and, it is very pleasurable to sail...let alone surf...seriously, this board is full of magic mojo...;-)
FWIW, I have been involved with WindSUP boards for 10 years...starting with prototypes before the 11'11" "Big Red"...the first production SUP with a mast foot option...
http://surfingsports.com/isla_vista_waves/index.html
http://surfingsports.com/longboard_wavesailing_cali/index.html
http://surfingsports.com/cali_longboard_wavesailing/index.html
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Thanks James. I sup sail a 2014 Fanatic Fly 11 6 (edit) in choppy conditions need an 8.6 (Aus. based in Singapore) - it works well handles chop and gybes easily. The only thing it does not do is release at the point that it feels it should when reaching full plane speed (fin) - not surprising given fin and tail lift. The Windsup looks like it does do this though - that would be a winner for me. I have several other sup boards and I really only want to sail a board of this style (did think Kona for a while) as I find myself in a location where this is really the only option to getting out every day/other day. I would not need the dagger board - but I can see it would be useful at times. Once again you are a wealth of knowledge and greatly appreciate you sharing what you know.
*Hammer board looks impressive also SUPsports.
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Windsurfing the Fly 11'6"
https://vimeo.com/120039451
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Hey flathead... +1 for Vinniecam :D
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Ha! thanks spookini - great little supping dog.
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James, just made noises to the supplier here to get a Windsup 11 8. Let you know how well it sails in Asia :-)
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The first SUP I ever bought was a slightly used 9 foot Starboard Extremists, I think it was Wardog's personal board. It was my intro to sup and I got addicted to surfing it, was so fun. Unfortunately for me, I couldn't get the thing to work so well as a windsurfer. It would hang in that annoying area between planing and not planing, you know, it felt like it was just about to jump on a plane and in light winds I couldn't get it "over the hump" to planing, even when there was enough wind where I could my real shortboard board to work. So I gave up on windsurfing SUPs, but it sounds like Wardogs Hammer may have overcome the hanging up problem and jumps on a plane. May be time to try windsupping again.
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Aloha J-Bird...
That SB was fun back in the day...but, agree with how annoying it's stickiness to plane was...felt to me that the mast foot connection was in the wrong place...
Forget the foot strap locations...not that they were needed...but, I did test them out...plus, the 50/50 soft rails had little bite...which hurt it's AOA...
The good news is that the Hammer blows it away as a SUP and a WindSUP...
I have the mast track location dialed...plus, as you know...1/2" of adjustment can be huge...
I have actually sailed it as a quad + 1...and, even in side-on breezes, it went to weather well...a real pleasure to sail...
The Hammer's SUPer deep concaves almost gives it a Hypersonic quality...really helps to get it up and going...nice acceleration...;-)
The rails are also totally dialed...one of the reasons that it nose rides beautifully with such small fins...
Spring is officially 4 weeks away...and, I have a couple of new GoPro mounts to capture some of the upcoming WindSUP action around here...
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Dubya-Dog:
As the Hammer's gets shorter, does the rear rocker profile change / increase? Just wondering if the 7'11" would get up under sail as well as some of the longer lengths? What about goin' upwind under low power?
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Dubya-Dog:
As the Hammer's gets shorter, does the rear rocker profile change / increase? Just wondering if the 7'11" would get up under sail as well as some of the longer lengths? What about goin' upwind under low power?
The 7'11" Hammer ends up with ~ 1/2" less nose and tail rocker than the 8'11" Hammer...very fast rocker lines...
You can see a couple of pretty good profile action pics below with Alyson riding the 7'11" Hammer...also. Rick on the 9'5" Hammer...
I have my Exocet Mini-Tanker down at the shop...260cm x 65cm @ 120 liters...8'6" x 26"...riding it and the 10'5" Kona in the pics...
I'll try and shoot a couple of comparison rocker pics...
http://surfingsports.com/exocet_konas/index.html
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I think these rocker shots with the Exocet Kona Mini-Tanker will help show why the Hammer is so fast...on a wave...or, sail assisted...let alone the extra help from the bottom hydrodynamics...
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WD, how much does Alyson in the pic weigh?
I'd love to go small as possible (board, that is) but wonder if for my fat ole self (160lbs), 8'5" would be better choice..
Mix of sailing and sus'ing. Equally challenged at both ???
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She's not tiny...but, my Hammer surfboard/SUP crossover floated her fine...
When I was over 200#, I could still ride the 7'11" x 31" Hammer...we've made smaller, thinner ones that were too much work for me at that weight...
I can design and build it at any dims and volume you want...but, I do keep CNC machine cuts of our 8 production sizes in stock to cut a couple of weeks off of the turnaround time...we just turned one out in 10 days! The planets aligned for this client...
I think the 8'5" for you would be a good size...especially, since you say that you're a bit challenged at both SUP and sailing...volume is your friend...;-)
It's a really fun board...constantly checked out of our demo fleet...very popular for us...
We've built an 8'5" with a mast track before...pics below...all of the black showing is actually exposed carbon...
I'd like to have one myself...but, my 8'11" is my "one design"...can't see carrying two WindSUP's that close in size in my already overloaded toy hauler...;-)
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I got a Sealion XL last spring. It feels like it would be easy to get on a full plane as you are getting powered more and more, but it is slow. HOWEVER ... It jumps onto a wave and feels great in very little wind. I am so stoked to have gotten 30 wave sailing sessions on this board for the season. Onshore, side-on, side, side-off, used it every way. For side shore, it's not going to really plane heading out, you do an effortless schlog, turn around and catch a wave coming in. I sailed some on-shore conditions where I pretty much stayed on a plane the whole time as long as I was in the wave zone.
For the last 10 years I just windsurfed when it was over 20mph, 5.3 sail on a 8'6 Naish wave. (I weigh in at 175 lbs, 6'4") Every other larger board I ever used just felt like crap to me.
I now have an inbetween range I would like to explore. Say winds enough to marginal waterstart, but less than 20. I sailed the Sealion in super light conditions, and got some great riding in. Problem is I would stay on the Sealion when it was getting near the 20mph area and its draggy. Some days footstraps seemed like they might be nice as well. I will keep the sealion for the sub 15mph days and paddlesurfing.
Thinking my answer is Goya 104 quad or Quattro 110 quad.
WindSupping kicks ass, being out when the kiters are marginal or going home when waves are good.
JP
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Jpeter, I have the 110 L Quattro Quad and it replaced my RRD 8'5 WasSUP. The WasSup was better for climbing over white water in 10 mph winds, but if the wind is 12-14 mph or I'm slogging at a spot with a decent channel the 110 L Quattro is far superior. Once I'm on a wave and my feet in the straps the apparent wind takes over and I can even pull off aerials in 10-12 mph. I demoed one of the very first versions of the Goya 104 about 6 years ago and at the time (coming from a fast planing FSW) wasn't impressed. But I've heard they made changes to the Goya in 2013 or 2014 that made it much livelier.
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Haven't had time to edit the video...coming soon...;-)
In the mean time here's some pics and frame grabs of a fun day out windSUP'n on the 8'11" Hammer...really fun board...planes up comfortably...sails like a dream...very foot steerable...responsive to rider input...goes to weather comfortably...at one point I tried to make it happen on my light air board the venerable Exocet Cross 118...never got in the foot straps...the Hammer took it in these side-on conditions by a country mile...
IMO, embodies all of the elements of the ultimate holy grail "one design"...
Responsive image gallery:
http://blog.surfingsports.com/2015/02/hammer-windsup.html
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Perfect sail for that. I love Superfreaks on any larger board. Caddillac power vs. Peaky Porsches of most sails. Not that I'm usually into Caddy's, but great on my shoulders.
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Perfect sail for that. I love Superfreaks on any larger board. Caddillac power vs. Peaky Porsches of most sails. Not that I'm usually into Caddy's, but great on my shoulders.
Yeppers...full agreement, Bill...I'm a full SUPerFreak fan...that Dacron Rasta Freak I was on today is 10 years old...;-)
Although, rigged with SUPer expensive 100% US made carbon mast and booms...I have a stash of those as well...but, unfortunately, no longer made as far as I know...:-(
http://surfingsports.com/isla_vista/index.html
http://surfingsports.com/isla_vista_longboard/index.html
I invested in America's Cup Cuben Fiber sail technology with the Aerotech Charge and Phantom line...sooo sooo lightweight...but, was discontinued because of the cost...fortunately, we still have 4 of them...the two bigger ones, our biggest sails...(6.2m2 & 6.8m2) only got rigged for the first time 2 and 3 years ago...;-)
So glad that we didn't leave then at our property in Mexico...or, at our Alaska in-law's storage locker on Maui...;-)
http://youtu.be/vjUjv_o4IgU
http://blog.surfingsports.com/2013/05/windsurfing-lake-lopez.html
http://blog.surfingsports.com/2013/07/windsurfing-lake-lopez-2.html
http://blog.surfingsports.com/2012/04/fun-day-at-the-lake.html
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Perfect sail for that. I love Superfreaks on any larger board. Caddillac power vs. Peaky Porsches of most sails. Not that I'm usually into Caddy's, but great on my shoulders.
I also sailed Deb's 5.0m2 Peace Freak for awhile on the 8'11" Hammer WindSUP early on...but, after several light puffy side-on breezes I decided to put up the 5.8m2 Rasta Freak...since it was only baffing...back & forth sailing...;-)
Howevers...I've had some epic sessions with her sail...;-)
Who doesn't love 5.0m2 sideoff down the line in perfect waves anywhere on the planet...pure heroin/champagne speedball...;-)
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Here's a vid clip showing the 8'11" Hammer easily planing up in light side-onshore choppy ocean conditions...
http://youtu.be/_0QmOG4nD1s
http://blog.surfingsports.com/2015/02/hammer-windsup.html
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In the "Hammer WindSup Video" thread Warren and i discussed the even better properties the SUP Sports Mallet would have for windsurfing, since it has even less rocker than the hammer.
Regarding the (my) Sealion XL i have the same impressions like jpeter, a good board, but some issues to improve.
Another thing i'd like to know if anybody has ever windsurfed a Simsup or a Tomo/Vanguard Shape?
The Simsup looks like a Slalomboard outline, the Tomo concept now will convert in the new Fanatic Stubby Waveboard.
What puzzles me most is that i know nothing about the rockerlines of these boards.
Warren said the Mallet would have a rockerline like his older Slalomboards, but how are the rockers exactly?
On the Pics the Mallet seems to have a flat middlesection but quite some tailrocker, whereas the Hammer has no tailkick despite the Chisseltail but a overall flatter rocker in the tail.
Slalomboards normally a dead flat in the tail, only having 1 - 2 mm tailkick.
Windsurfwaveboards usually have arround 1 - 3 cm of tailkick, using the method by putting a scale 1m from the tail.
Comparing or scaling outlines and rails is vissually possible looking at the pics and drawings.
But could anyone in the know enlighten me about the rockerlines, measurde with the same method of:
1. Windurfing Slalomboard
2. Windsurfing Waveboard (i could measure my Goya boards by myself if given the method)
3. Sealion XL (i could measure that by myself if given the method)
4. Classic 9' Wavesup e. g. Naish Mana / Hokua or Fanatic Allwave
5. Simsup
6. Sup Sports Mallet / Hammer (Warren?)
7. Others (just to learn more)
Thanx alot guys.
Alex
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Alex.
I hear you on the Tomo question.
If I had (have) one. ...I would drop a mast plug in there pronto.
Jager Stone has been on a Tomo-styled windsurf for a while (Dad shapes them), and he just changed sponsors....so yeah, I bet we see more next year.
In action: https://vimeo.com/76927274
The nose is probably more just a trick to get swing weight down, and the swallow tail keeps it wide.
I suspect the biggest impediment to a good sailing Tomo would be the rails (not boxy enough) and needing the right fin combo.....but a lot makes sense, and I suspect we will see more
My experiments have included a bunch of stuff but I'm happiest on a long board with glide because that's where I can have the most fun in offshore light winds....carrying speed to generate apparent wind.
The shorter stuff is not so much fun as I can plane up better on the trusty Cross 117, and anything less, I'm paddling. Would own a Sealion or a Hammer if I had any more room in or near the shed
I paddled a full-on Slalom 130, but decided no fun unless I changed fins....which I'm not going to do often with the Tuttle system.
Converted a Starboard Go to a quad!...super fun, but again it's like how much stuff do you want to drag to the beach?
Rockers?
That Hammer looks plenty flat....and the Minitanker was a good comparison.
I am not sure though that you should just look at rocker.....the rails for sailing are very important, and the last 2 feet of rocker has little to do with things unless it's coupled with the overall rocker and intended speed.
Slalom boards still have rocker, but they don't have to worry about nose kick for a wave-drop....in fact the nose just makes air drag when smoking along. So yeah like a 1" rise over 24"....but it ain't gonna turn at wave riding speeds because it's a box. And you dont' wanna turn on a wave at the speed it wants!!!
The classic wave sups are too much banana for me, but I can get the Laird smoking once I'm tucked in the curl with apparent wind.....
I like the Hammer look for a one board quiver, but my best sup sailing is in 45 degree offshore, and again, I go for the glide of a 10'6 Laird in that...I have a Munoz 11 with a mast box.....absolutely a giggle-board!....but somewhere around head high it gets redonkulous....
it all depends on how you feel on any given day....but sups and supsailing did make kites redundant.....UNLESS you want to talk about foils...I'm afraid that the kites will get the nod there for a while
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Aloha Alex,
I would rather not give out the dims, especially rocker dims on a schematic...too easily reproduced without monetizing my R&D...
With my CAD Shape 3DX file, my IP is protected to some extent because I can set a timer so that the file can't be opened past a certain date...
These graphics show a little of what you alluded to pertaining to bottom rocker lines...remember, there is also a deck rocker line...and, the rails help tie everything together...
Also, I hear "outcast" on the Cross 117...lots of time on it...then it's replacement, the Cross 118...epic times...
That's where my Hammer WindSUP bridges the gap between planing windsurfing and standup paddle surfing...would much rather be shlogging, bob and catch, on a Hammer than the Cross 118...
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Warren,
I do understand you, the rockerlinie is the real secret of magic boards.
I'll try to check if 3DX will work for him.
Regarding your comparative chart of the rocker profiles, the Mallet looks like it has a massive tailkick, but on the pics with the slalomboards it looks more flatish.
Do you plan to built yourself a Mallet windsup in the near future?
Otherwise the Hammer 8'11 or 8'5 would be the sure bet.
Could you compare the stabillity in chop of a Sealion XL, 9' x 29.75, 150 liters, to your sizes of Hammer and Mallet?
Regarding fastest planing: I'm playing with the idea of putting in a deeptuttle box as center box to use this board also with a Foil from Horue.
http://www.horue.fr/produits/
This would really fire the board up in light wind and flat water since as long as there are waves slog and ride doesn't bother me regarding the "slog" part, the board doesn't need to plan on the way out.
SUP + Foil is the next big thing at our french friends at AHD:
http://www.ahd-boards.com/models/sealion-wings-2/
Alex
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Sorry for the monolog, but i did measure my boards today to get a feeling for the Rockers:
Method: Put a 2 meter bar on the board so that it's sitting balanced on the board 1 meter from the tail, measure rocker at the tailend, second check for flat areas on the bottom:
Windsurfboards
Starboard Aero 127 , 9 mm rocker, flat area 60 cm, starting at the front of the finbox
Goya One 105, 22 mm rocker, flat area 60 cm , starting at the front of the finbox
Goya Custom Quad 94, 20 mm rocker, flat area 60cm, starting at the front of the finbox
SUP
Starboard Converse 9'0, 42 mm rocker, flat area 30cm, 85 - 115 cm from the tail
Sealion XL, 50 mm rocker, no flat area !!
Now it's clear to me why the Sealion XL doesn't plan that good!
Seems like a standard rockerline with a Fish outline, just some harder/fuller rails, hmm? Time for a rework of this shape????!!!
I have no measure of the Sealion 7'6 but this board did plan far better, and AHD says it has the flattest rocker.
Question remains how much rocker the other here mentioned boards have, esp. Mallet, Hammer, JP Magic Ride, Exocets etc.
Alex
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Hmm, this thing looks a fair bit like WD's Mallet....
http://www.surfertoday.com/windsurfing/11565-stubby-te-a-very-unusual-windsurf-board
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hmmmmm...;-)
I thought that I had posted a fairly lengthy reply to Alex on this thread a few days ago...must have timed out...
Do you plan to built yourself a Mallet windsup in the near future?
It actually started with a response to Alex by saying to not give my secret away...and, that the rocker line numbers won't be disclosed online...
Mast track on a Mallet and all bets are off...;-)
I also contrasted the Mallet design with kite race boards and Formula windsurf (FW) boards...super wide tails...
Why wide tails? Simply because they are faster to plane!
Just a matter of control...and, we know a hella lot more about fins and their placement on wide boards now than we ever have...;-)
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Hi Warren,
pitty, your detailed answer has gone, i highly appreciate your thoughts on this.
But exactly my thoughts on board designs, with designs like the Mallet SUP meets Windsurfing / Kiting, whereas the classic SUP Shapes with larger rockers are much more on the surfboard roots, like the rockers of the first windsurfboards 30 years ago, that didn't plane.
Your pics could be complemented with pictures of the Fanatic Stubby and the JP Slate or other Tomo SUPS, at least regarding concept and outline, but (i'm repetitive here) regarding rocker i don't know.
What makes me also think is your statement about volume in the Mallet thread, that the small volumes of the Tomo shapes can't defy physics, Archimedes is Archimedes as Colas said in the Aussie forum. I also think you need some volume, also or especially for windsuping in non planing conditions, it helps to get you out over the impact zone or for the occasional uphaul start in there.
Your Mallet and also the Simsups tend to have more volume than the Tomo concepts, i think this is relevant in choosing the shape concept for a "perfect" windsup.
Waiting for your first ride impressions on your Mallet windsup.
Do you also consider the Foil thing? Change Centerbox to Tuttle should be easy with your custom building.
Alex
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Sealion XL, 50 mm rocker, no flat area !!
I wonder how the Sealion 83 compares. I was intrigued by it, knowing where I am at with my XL and wondering about how much improvement by going smaller.
Thanks for the opinions on the Quatro 110 quad, I have heard nothing but praise about it. It's tough to be on the east coast usa. Unfortunately I would need to go to Maui to demo a few of these different boards. Will be on OBX in a few weeks, might get a chance to demo something down there.
With the rate of warming up around here, I might be sailing and paddling in New England by the time I return from NC.
Cheers, JP
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Hi Warren,
pitty, your detailed answer has gone, i highly appreciate your thoughts on this.
But exactly my thoughts on board designs, with designs like the Mallet SUP meets Windsurfing / Kiting, whereas the classic SUP Shapes with larger rockers are much more on the surfboard roots, like the rockers of the first windsurfboards 30 years ago, that didn't plane.
Your pics could be complemented with pictures of the Fanatic Stubby and the JP Slate or other Tomo SUPS, at least regarding concept and outline, but (i'm repetitive here) regarding rocker i don't know.
What makes me also think is your statement about volume in the Mallet thread, that the small volumes of the Tomo shapes can't defy physics, Archimedes is Archimedes as Colas said in the Aussie forum. I also think you need some volume, also or especially for windsuping in non planing conditions, it helps to get you out over the impact zone or for the occasional uphaul start in there.
Your Mallet and also the Simsups tend to have more volume than the Tomo concepts, i think this is relevant in choosing the shape concept for a "perfect" windsup.
Waiting for your first ride impressions on your Mallet windsup.
Do you also consider the Foil thing? Change Centerbox to Tuttle should be easy with your custom building.
Alex
Aloha Alex,
I concur...volume is your friend...;-)
You can get a nice view of the rocker and effective waterline of the 7'6" Mallet in pics below where it's nicely trimming on the wave face...Al is 190#...
This board is so fast in fun hollow beach break...amazing acceleration when you need it...
More pics in a responsive light box image viewer here:
http://blog.surfingsports.com/2015/03/76-mallet-sup.html
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Gone ahead and ordered the Exocet Windsup 11 8 a couple of weeks ago. Supplier says it will be the latest with some minor improvements and a delay is to be expected due to this. Interested to see what that might be - improved dagger board skirt maybe...could be nothing. Interested in any others that have this board that might like to share their experiences.
James do you have any more video of it sailing clips of this board. http://jimbodouglass.blogspot.sg/2012/10/got-new-tractor-wheeeooo-doggies.html
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That'd be my guess. Better daggerboard gasket that doesn't squirt water.
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James do you have any more video of it sailing clips of this board. http://jimbodouglass.blogspot.sg/2012/10/got-new-tractor-wheeeooo-doggies.html
Yes. Here's one where I'm sailing it in small waves and sideshore wind with a 6.8 sail and centered footstraps.
https://vimeo.com/78441080
Here's one where I'm sailing in small waves and side-offshore wind.
https://vimeo.com/78526206
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Thanks James, btw nice little duck jibe on the smaller board in the last vid. Got the news my Windsup 11 8 is on the way - should be here in a week. Looking forward to comparing it to the Fanatic 11 6 Fly that I currently sail.
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Had a killer Hammer WindSUP sesh yesterday with the 5.8m2 Rasta Freak...even the skinniest light air kiter on a 10m2 gave it a go and got it planing...that was a first for him with a WindSUP...he's tried a bunch, too...mine had too much volume for him...but, I will most likely be building him something in the 6' range...
Also, had a couple of days of perfect 5.0m2 sideoff before it went ballistic 3.0m2 each of the days...
http://blog.surfingsports.com/2015/04/big-sur-windsurfing.html
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New Windsup arrive today - took it for a spin in some slop and gusty weather - handled it like a boss!
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Fun looking board...
Here is a vid clip from a recent 5.8m2 day on the 8’11″ Hammer WindSUP from three different points of view…beach cam…mast mount…& mouth mount…
https://youtu.be/eY0CVCSmKYY
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Jpeter, I have the 110 L Quattro Quad and it replaced my RRD 8'5 WasSUP. The WasSup was better for climbing over white water in 10 mph winds, but if the wind is 12-14 mph or I'm slogging at a spot with a decent channel the 110 L Quattro is far superior. Once I'm on a wave and my feet in the straps the apparent wind takes over and I can even pull off aerials in 10-12 mph. I demoed one of the very first versions of the Goya 104 about 6 years ago and at the time (coming from a fast planing FSW) wasn't impressed. But I've heard they made changes to the Goya in 2013 or 2014 that made it much livelier.
Philn - I got the Quattro Quad 110 and have been putting it thru the paces. What has really surprised me is how good it feels when it gets windy. I have used it from the low end of the 5.7 to high end of the 4.7. It just doesn't feel like a 110L board. A fellow cape cod sailor has this board and thinks it's super slow/draggy. Maybe they changed it or just footstrap placement but it feels good to me. Sailed it sideshore and side/on so far. Put a set of Makani mini weed fins on it to deal with our local conditions.
JP
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Well I'm not sure it could be used as a SUP but Starboard is certainly not giving up on windsurfing. Here is a full planing inflatable sailboard;
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2lg54v_la-premiere-planche-windsurf-freeride-gonflable-full-planing_sport