Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Downwind and Racing => Topic started by: balance_fit on February 12, 2012, 06:31:31 PM
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Well, it has finally arrived ;D
After reading, researching, watching and asking, i pulled the trigger and after some weeks of anxiety, it has arrived ! Not without 2 beautiful pencil sized punctures underneath, thanks to the charismatic treatment it was subjected to while in transit. Punctures repaired and claim under way, it was time to test.
I chose a secluded, mangrove lined bay in the south coast of Puerto Rico, by the town of Salinas. Please see attached picture. I just wanted to be sure to test this board in calm conditions to get the feel for it. Thankfully, the wind that day was light, no more than 10 knots with some better gusts but no whitecaps.
In flat water: After some initial tipiness management which lasted around 10 minutes, i started to feel confident in this board's excellent secondary stability. Primary stability is comfortable for a 25" wide board, but I had to pay attention, specially at low speed. Interestingly, once over 5 kph, the board feels quite stable and urges one to power on.
I noticed how well this shape tracks with a beam wind. A little counter steering with paddle and leeward rail pressure and side winds were effectively dealt with.
In open waters: Ater 3 kms of paddlng I approached a section of open waters of about 1 km, in which 10 knot winds were blowing at about 45 degree angle to the bow and chop (1 ft ) threatened to change intended course, which was to a small offshore cay. Even facing several sections of confused waters due to boat wakes, it was easy to keep intended course and balance was never an issue. Did i mention this board is incredibly stiff? Hitting some bumps head on, i never noticed any vibration whatsoever !
"Downwind": i quote the word downwind here since the wind was so light, but, since small windswell could be used to one's advantage, may it qualify? Anyway, i feared stability would be an issue once running with the swell, but my worries were quickly dispelled once i set course for a 2.4 km section...downwind. Never did i need to slide my feet back in the footwells, which, by the way, were very comfy, and that bulbous nose just floats over the ramps ahead! The board averaged 8-9 kph and connected the tiny ramps so easily.
What else? I plan on a paddle session on my local inlet where ocean swell comes in through a small opening, after breaking on a shallow reef and reforming. All this with strong side to on shore winds. Quite a testing area !
Pictures coming soon...
I must thank Gary Stone from Paddleboard Specialists for having the patience to deal with my research process and all of my questioning, finding me an excellent deal on a new board and relieving my anxiety after showing him the puncture pictures.
May all be well
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It's a great board I'm getting more stoked each time I take mine out.
A trick these boards is to trust the secondary stability. I've had both the 25" and my old 27" heeled over until there is water coming over the side. Just keep paddling and you'll be fine ;D
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Secondary stability is a big deal on round hulls. You have to trust the fact that the thing is going to stop tipping and keep paddling. You also need good flexibility in your knees and ankles.
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balance_fit,
I'm glad you are happy with the board since I posted quite a bit how happy I was with ours when you were asking questions about the ACE.
I just put a GoPro mount on the nose of our board so I'll try to take some footage with it soon.
We have the AST version since it was a heck of a lot cheaper and we got it as mostly a flatwater training tool instead of a racing board. I do wonder how much more responsive the carbon version would be, but I like that the AST seems super strong and I'm not worried when I bonk it against the wall carrying it from the truck.
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It's a great board I'm getting more stoked each time I take mine out.
A trick these boards is to trust the secondary stability. I've had both the 25" and my old 27" heeled over until there is water coming over the side. Just keep paddling and you'll be fine ;D
Hi Kaihoe
The trust in the secondary stability came quite quickly, after some 10 minutes in the flatwater and even quicker once i went into somewhat rougher sections. Seems that over certain speed the board initial stability improves quite a bit, plus, the board becomes impervious to the moving waters underneath.
Keep paddling !
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Secondary stability is a big deal on round hulls. You have to trust the fact that the thing is going to stop tipping and keep paddling. You also need good flexibility in your knees and ankles.
Thankfully, the ACE's hull has a flat section underneath comprised of flat panels at each side of a shallow concave that runs from almost bow to fin. The flat sections have a hard edge just as the beam becomes wider, so the hard edges, for all practical purposes are tucked under water.
I remember my era of surfski paddling, when all i could muster was flatwater on an Epic V10...that was quite a round hull !! The ski had a wonderful, deep cockpit with very high sides, supposedly to add stability, until one fell off (Which i did quite often). Then, I became "cornish a la rotisserie" until i was able to stick my butt into the cockpit without turning over....never found a hint of secondary stability on that thing...
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balance_fit,
I'm glad you are happy with the board since I posted quite a bit how happy I was with ours when you were asking questions about the ACE.
I just put a GoPro mount on the nose of our board so I'll try to take some footage with it soon.
We have the AST version since it was a heck of a lot cheaper and we got it as mostly a flatwater training tool instead of a racing board. I do wonder how much more responsive the carbon version would be, but I like that the AST seems super strong and I'm not worried when I bonk it against the wall carrying it from the truck.
Hey !
Glad to hear you're having lots of fun on the ACE, seems that i'm on that track too! My sincere thanks to you and the other zoners who kindly instructed me about this board.
My GoPro is the old model, with a very narrow range of vision. I tried to take a short video with it from a headmount and only either bow or horizon could fit into the range of vision of the camera. Gotta get the newer model with a nice wider angle.
Originally i went for the AST model when starting to research, but, the shops i inquired didn't have the 14' x 25" in 2011 model and 2012 models were far into the future. They did have a 14' x 27" but i felt those 390 liters were just too much for a 160 lb paddler. Thankfully, Gary came to my rescue with an excellent deal on the brushed carbon. I will have to be very careful in handling but i'm very happy with it's stiffness and lighter weight.
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Hey balance_fit, so pleased that you got the Ace! PT Woody just recently got his carbon 2012 14 x 25 and I must admit I have board envy over my AST.....
The more I use mine the more I like it, only trouble is the speed spoils you for anything else, took out my Open Ocean a week or two ago and seriously wondered if I had weed on the fin for a while until I realised it was just the contrast to the Ace!
I used PT's custom 12'6 x 23.5 in a race a couple of weeks ago, tippy but really trucks and super light and fragile, it was one of EJ's boards shipped to Australia for a race.
I've found the brushed carbon boards to actually be really tough, in day to day use. Lot more technical to repair if you do get a ding though.
Video please ;)
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Hey balance_fit, so pleased that you got the Ace! PT Woody just recently got his carbon 2012 14 x 25 and I must admit I have board envy over my AST.....
The more I use mine the more I like it, only trouble is the speed spoils you for anything else, took out my Open Ocean a week or two ago and seriously wondered if I had weed on the fin for a while until I realised it was just the contrast to the Ace!
I used PT's custom 12'6 x 23.5 in a race a couple of weeks ago, tippy but really trucks and super light and fragile, it was one of EJ's boards shipped to Australia for a race.
I've found the brushed carbon boards to actually be really tough, in day to day use. Lot more technical to repair if you do get a ding though.
Video please ;)
Hey Jonathan !
Most of all i need to thank you for the super fun times i'm having on this sup. Your videos (and a couple of others too) and the detailed description of the board's performance with tips, comments, etc, were crucial to convince me of taking the step.
As you say, the speed is big time spoiler ! Been on it only 3 times so far but already have felt what it's capable of: freight train tracking, quick take off on bumps, great glide and....interestingly, stability ! This board rewards speed with stability, so, the faster one goes, the better it feels. Several local paddlers asked to demo it, and were impressed with the secondary stability. All said they though i was nuts to have ordered a 25" wide sup ! Changed opinions after paddling, though.... ::)
Regarding stability, I found a way of standing in the foot wells for increased stability when turning sideways against chop or swell: i hop back one step, toes flush with the rear drain hole and brace both feet against the outer side of the footwells. Wow, so easy to turn and stable ! Ah, not forgotten, so easy to turn ! Got no issues whatsoever with countersteering.
I had thought, based on my LK 14, that if i stepped back, on a pintail, i would suffer instability, so in my first outing i remained glued to the same stance for 7 km...ouch...but on my second outing i was able to catch some bumps and for the taste of it (not necessity since the bow won't pearl in small bumps) i stepped back and accidentally ended up in the mentioned stance...i sailed down many bumps and turned around for more several times... need to take the video for you guys to see !
I tested a very highly regarded sup from a reputable shaper after paddling the ACE on my 2nd outing. I understand you perfectly when you say that you felt weeds were hanging on the fin....i felt this sup slow and it seemed to generate a lot of friction in the water. It had a piercing nose with a square tail.
I'm happy with my board's toughness since it feels to be very well constructed. That said, the shippers managed to injure it on it's way here by the way of 2 tiny pencil point shaped holes. A local repairman, quite well regarded, repaired it and no issues so far.
PT's 12'6 x 23.5 must be a rocket, but a twitchy one ! That said, and having paddled the very sunken footwells of my ACE, i know no other board could touch PT's in flats.
Just for the sake of curiosity, since my ACE is 2011, how different is the 2012 model? Some local guys are already asking...my ACE is the first one ever in our waters.
I owe you guys pictures and video, haven't forgotten. Go Pro Hero upgrade in it's way. I attached 2 pictures of my local water spot, a flat water lagoon with access to an inlet where ocean swells break at the mouth and come inside at 2-3 feet at most. Lots of wind too ! This is where i paddle my cuasi downwinders locally...
Be well
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The 2011 and 2012 look very similar, I haven't paddled PT's yet. I think most of the change is to the tuck line, where the little sharp rail forms under the board where the curved outside of the board meets the flat bottom. Annabel Anderson said that her understanding was subtle changes to make it slightly more stable and release faster.
No doubt we will do a side by side comparison and post the photos soon.
I find that I tend to do little two legged jumps forward and back to trim the board onto the wave, PT and I went out last week in some very rough sea, paddling into the wind and waves then turning and catching the waves back in. He fell a couple of times riding the waves because I think he was staying forward and they were quite steep little troughs, the board accelerates so fast on a wave that even though it doesn't truly pearl it will slow down pretty fast if it hits the back of the wave in front. If its a really big wave getting your back foot onto the flat area behind the foot troughs lets you really surf it.
The other thing I do now is try to stay high on the wave and not let the board shoot down into the trough if I can avoid it, so paddle hard to catch the wave then just back off to let it stay high.
I have posted this brilliant video before and watched it many times, Oscar is the absolute downwind master.
Downwind with Oscar Chalupsky (http://vimeo.com/18363570)
That subtle approach not only saves energy but makes you so much faster and I find staying high lets you pick the best path to link runners. Such a wonderful board to learn the subtleties of catching runners.
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Excellent rockin' video !
It reminds me of the times i paddled a surfski and surfed, almost daily, surfski.info.....i do have an old video of me on my Fenn XT, if you want to see, although quite boring comparing to Chalupsky's !
The way these guys flow with the swells and keep such a hi speed just makes me drool...gotta watch it again.
I'm in the process of revisiting my old Hero camera, the standard version, to see if a wider angle lens can be affixed to the waterproof housing. I took a short clip on my LK from a headmount and it was dizzying. Only the bow of the board would show. Maybe a stern mount can solve this.
Now i'm really pumped up to go and take video !
Thanks for the cure (spanish anglicism for medicine "la cura")
Be well
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Wow, those doubles motor. The big O is a legend. 12 world championships (molokai's) if memory serves. And he would have had more but for the South African ban for a few seasons - in his prime no less. He's the man. Holy crap he makes that look so easy. He's still racing and winning, showing the next generation how it's done. Killer video. I like the text that goes with it too. Solid description of how to read swells.
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That Miller's Run(?) has some awesome conditions when its working.
The skis are moving so fast that there isn't the need to make a superhuman effort to catch a bump. The key is picking the line that will most efficiently get you through the next series of bumps, so your focus has to be a bit broader than down winding on a SUP.
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Hey L, just noticed how Oscar is bracing, he almost rests the paddle shaft on the edge of the boat, his shoulders are very low and engaged. I've been doing it with my arms higher in the air making my shoulders inherently less stable and more prone to injury. I'll try that tomorrow!
Sorry to turn this into another ski thread balance_fit :)
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Lots to learn from the Masters of the paddling disciplines...OC, surfski, prone paddleboarders, C1, etc, etc ! ;D
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I lay the blame of surfski showing up here squarely on Jonathan's shoulders ;D Maybe LPB too. I dunno.
Jonathan - I find that I brace my ski on the right side fairly regularly when I catch a glide. Most of the time not really digging in but letting it skip lightly on the water just for an extra touch of stability, and resting the core muscles. I'm wondering if that is a holdover from OC-1 where there was always the ama to prevent flipping to the right...?
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Ama's on the left ;)
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I lay the blame of surfski showing up here squarely on Jonathan's shoulders ;D
Guilty as charged :-[
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Ama's on the left ;)
True dat. The ama only prevents flipping to the left. WTF was I thinking?
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Just for the sake of curiosity, since my ACE is 2011, how different is the 2012 model? Some local guys are already asking...my ACE is the first one ever in our waters.
From what we can tell comparing 12'6"s the 2012 seems to have a bit more rocker and volume at the front and the pin tail carries more volume at the back by not tapering as aggressively. Supposedly these changes are to increase the stability. We have had one guy go back to the 2011 model because he didn't like the 2012 as much, but he's a smaller guy with really good balance ( paddles a 23 NEW as well)
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Just for the sake of curiosity, since my ACE is 2011, how different is the 2012 model? Some local guys are already asking...my ACE is the first one ever in our waters.
From what we can tell comparing 12'6"s the 2012 seems to have a bit more rocker and volume at the front and the pin tail carries more volume at the back by not tapering as aggressively. Supposedly these changes are to increase the stability. We have had one guy go back to the 2011 model because he didn't like the 2012 as much, but he's a smaller guy with really good balance ( paddles a 23 NEW as well)
Hi Kaihoe
It took me a couple of sessions in brisk waters to find the best position for stability in my 2011 ACE. I started standing quite ahead in the footwells, noticing the bow splashed too much and the initial stability was tricky, i went progressively backwards until the bow started 'hovering' over the water without splash, the board balanced out, and then i started to be more relaxed on it. In the process, i felt that bracing feet against sides of footwells helped quite a lot, specially when turning broadside to chop and wind. I ended up with toes flush with the aft drain hole, for my 165 lbs in general flatwater/chop paddling.
If the 14' models for 2012 are following similar design modifications as the 12'6", i understand this will make the board more versatile, increasing it's range of use into choppier waters. It just remains to be seen if these changes don't affect the ACE's excellent speed, tracking and ease of bump catching.
Interestingly, i tried yesterday to find where the 25 inches of beam my board is supposed to have are....could only find 24" and some fractions... :)
Will take some video today on my local paddling spot...hope my olde Standard GoPro, mounted at the stern, shows a good view.
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Ama's on the left ;)
True dat. The ama only prevents flipping to the left. WTF was I thinking?
I knew you didn't mean that (-: I have just flipped an OC1 to the right so many times it's burned in my head!
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Hi Kaihoe
It took me a couple of sessions in brisk waters to find the best position for stability in my 2011 ACE. I started standing quite ahead in the footwells, noticing the bow splashed too much and the initial stability was tricky, i went progressively backwards until the bow started 'hovering' over the water without splash, the board balanced out, and then i started to be more relaxed on it. In the process, i felt that bracing feet against sides of footwells helped quite a lot, specially when turning broadside to chop and wind. I ended up with toes flush with the aft drain hole, for my 165 lbs in general flatwater/chop paddling.
If the 14' models for 2012 are following similar design modifications as the 12'6", i understand this will make the board more versatile, increasing it's range of use into choppier waters. It just remains to be seen if these changes don't affect the ACE's excellent speed, tracking and ease of bump catching.
Interestingly, i tried yesterday to find where the 25 inches of beam my board is supposed to have are....could only find 24" and some fractions... :)
Will take some video today on my local paddling spot...hope my olde Standard GoPro, mounted at the stern, shows a good view.
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I've got a 12'6" NEW which is like the 2010 version of the Ace, just with a different name. When trying to find the ideal position to stand on the board, I like to get as much of the board's waterline engaged as possible. I figure this will result in less pushing of the water and better speed. For me, I stand near the front of the footwells on my board when in flat water. If I'm on a runner, I'll take 1 or 2 two-footed hops back to keep the nose from digging in to the wave in front.
I'm still working on riding the board in surf stance from the very back of the board and out of the foot wells. I find it very tricky standing on the tail of my board in surf stance. The 14' Ace has a flatter area behind the footwells that make it quite a bit easier to ride the tail in surf stance.
I think this board really excels in mild to moderate downwinders. It just seems to slip through the water effortlessly while letting you feel the bumps and paddle accordingly to catch them.
I have other boards that as fast or even faster in flat water but nothing is as much fun on a downwinder.
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Ama's on the left ;)
True dat. The ama only prevents flipping to the left. WTF was I thinking?
I knew you didn't mean that (-: I have just flipped an OC1 to the right so many times it's burned in my head!
Me too as to the flipping part. I think what I was trying to say was that the habit of keeping the paddle lightly bracing on the right when on a surfski is a holdover from OC-1. Never had to brace on the left on OC-1, and it feels a bit awkward on the ski.
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I've got a 12'6" NEW which is like the 2010 version of the Ace, just with a different name. When trying to find the ideal position to stand on the board, I like to get as much of the board's waterline engaged as possible. I figure this will result in less pushing of the water and better speed. For me, I stand near the front of the footwells on my board when in flat water. If I'm on a runner, I'll take 1 or 2 two-footed hops back to keep the nose from digging in to the wave in front.
I'm still working on riding the board in surf stance from the very back of the board and out of the foot wells. I find it very tricky standing on the tail of my board in surf stance. The 14' Ace has a flatter area behind the footwells that make it quite a bit easier to ride the tail in surf stance.
I think this board really excels in mild to moderate downwinders. It just seems to slip through the water effortlessly while letting you feel the bumps and paddle accordingly to catch them.
I have other boards that as fast or even faster in flat water but nothing is as much fun on a downwinder.
Hi Argosi
I like this ACE 14' x 25" the more i paddle it ! I've been able to find it's sweet spot in heavy chop up to 2 feet, in all directions.
In my case, standing in the front of the footwells results in less stability compared to standing flush with the rear drain hole. The most forward i get is flush with both drain holes for catching a bump. Maybe if the wind were stronger here i wouldn't need to go that much forward.
Haven't done a bona fide downwind on it yet, but on my local paddling spot i've been able to ride a few bumps. Quite easy to catch them and once planing, rock solid stability. These are small 2 footers, so i haven't needed to go further back than one small hop from my favored stance spot. I feel that if i didn't hop back the nose wouldn't pearl, but might lose perfect trim.
As you say, i feel this sup excells in moderate downwinders and i am planning on doing one of those in the next few weeks.
Just today, i filmed 46 minutes of video at my local spot, quite choppy, but impressive stability ! In the process of edition... :P
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Hey guys,
I find that I'm standing back by the handles on both my 14 and 12'6" if I go forward I seem to loose the glide. It interesting as the general wisdom round here is to stand as far forward as possible. I also find that I loose the stability if I stand right up the front when going downwind, so much so that I generally stay back and only go forward to drop down a wave. Then I have to run back really fast cause I accelerates down the wave so fast it's not funny ( and I end up in the water). I am running a bit more weight than balance_ fit about 200 lbs which makes the downwind trim and general balance challenging :o
As far as stability in chop goes we are paddling ACEs in everything. On Tuesday's race we where dealing with 3 to 4' waves and 10+ knots, at an angle across the course. The pure downwind boards where slightly faster on the downwind leg, but with the ACEs speed I could pull them in and pass them upwind. These boards really fly upwind in rough conditions, the tail releases down the back of waves. We've even got a couple of guys who have worked out how to surf them down the line of a swell ( the rest of us are stuck with straight shooting)
The 2012 changes seem to help with catching the larger swells, the increased rocker and volume at the front gives a bit more leeway on th drop before having to lift the bow.
Argosi, demo a recent 25. Guys stepping up from the NEW are finding the recent ACEs a lot faster....although we do have some 23 NEWs going really fast as well
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Hello again ACES
While into discovering where to stand for optimum trim, stability and lift I had a friend paddle besides me, checking bow and stern balance. It all comes together right around the back drain hole for my weight.
The ACE is a different shape than a piercing bow with a V bottom, so I feel that standing too far forward won't allow the entry concave to do it's work. I felt my ACE come alive when I hit my 'correct' position.
Will correlate the different positions on windless flats by GPS reference soon.
Still have lots to learn from it, but so far I'm very happy with it's behavior.
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Hey guys,
I find that I'm standing back by the handles on both my 14 and 12'6" if I go forward I seem to loose the glide. It interesting as the general wisdom round here is to stand as far forward as possible. I also find that I loose the stability if I stand right up the front when going downwind, so much so that I generally stay back and only go forward to drop down a wave. Then I have to run back really fast cause I accelerates down the wave so fast it's not funny ( and I end up in the water). I am running a bit more weight than balance_ fit about 200 lbs which makes the downwind trim and general balance challenging :o
As far as stability in chop goes we are paddling ACEs in everything. On Tuesday's race we where dealing with 3 to 4' waves and 10+ knots, at an angle across the course. The pure downwind boards where slightly faster on the downwind leg, but with the ACEs speed I could pull them in and pass them upwind. These boards really fly upwind in rough conditions, the tail releases down the back of waves. We've even got a couple of guys who have worked out how to surf them down the line of a swell ( the rest of us are stuck with straight shooting)
The 2012 changes seem to help with catching the larger swells, the increased rocker and volume at the front gives a bit more leeway on th drop before having to lift the bow.
Argosi, demo a recent 25. Guys stepping up from the NEW are finding the recent ACEs a lot faster....although we do have some 23 NEWs going really fast as well
Interesting to hear that the Ace is a bit slower downwind than some of the pure downwind boards in those relativelymild 10+ knot conditions. I would've thought that the Ace would be faster in mild to moderate downwind conditions. Curious to know which pure downwind boards performed better downwind.
As for upwind, I'm guessing that the Ace's relatively flat rocker compared with the downwind boards helped it there.
I'm riding a 23.5" wide 12'6" NEW. I'll be able to demo the 14'x25" 2012 Ace in April or May. Are the guys in your area on the 14' Ace or 12'6" Ace? I can see how the extra length of the 14' would help its speed compared with the 12'6" NEW.
Personally, I'll want to see how the 14'x25" Ace compares with my 12'6"x23.5" NEW.
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Hi Argosi
Looking back its probably a bit misleading. I think the downwind performance was due to my crap balance combining with leg cramps. The guys with more traditional rails had and easier time with the cross swell, don't think they were fundamentally faster though
Balance_fit. I've been trying out your foot position, it's too far back for me. I need to stand with my toes at the front hole or a little behind
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Hi guys
After re-reading Kaihoe's experience i, as Argosi did, also became curious. I share with you my thoughts in this respect.
Cramping on the legs is a sign of fatigue and wrecks balance, which is a very delicate mechanism to start out with, that's a fact.
On light downwind conditions with 3-4 foot swells the speeds achieved are not so quick as to stabilize the ACE in such swells. More stable downwind boards may have an edge here, specially if the ACE paddler is suffering cramps.
Upwind, since the speed of the paddling and the water rushing past add up, the ACE becomes stable and it's paddler is able to catch the downwind boards which are not efficient against wind and chop as the ACE is.
I base my opinion in that on my local paddling spot, i face many changes of point of wind and swell. Sometimes up, side or downwind, strong or light winds, flatter or choppier conditions.
I've found that the ACE, in flatwater from a dead start, starts to stabilize at around GPS referenced 5 km/hr. Against wind and chop, it stabilizes at less speed, because of the water rushing past. Sideways to the wind and swell is an exercise in concentration under 5 kph, improving as speed goes up. Pivot turning in chop, squat down ! Downwind, once on a swell, i feel very confident in the board's stability, it's rock solid.
I'm adding some clips to a video i will be posting later today. In it i include all points of wind and swell, so that the ACE's behavior can be appreciated in these conditions, under my inexperienced skinny legs.
Off to paddle
Ah, Kaihoe, i will keep searching for the best speed/stance relationship with GPS referenced info. Will keep you posted.
Be well
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My first video of the ACE in my local spot. An olde GoPro, narrow field of vision...should i upgrade ?
Choppy waters and winds in the 10-15 knot range. There's clips from 2 sessions, see if you can tell !
Being the 5th time i take the ACE out, i feel quite confident in it's stability for this conditions.
ACE DOG 1.wmv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3HTcp6c7T8#)
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Jeez it gets dark under those bridges.. ;D
DJ
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balance_fit--thanks for posting. It's nice to see another part of the world. Still morning here and I feel like I've already been to Puerto Rico, and Australia from DJ's thread. Saw Sweden last night. And LaPerouseBay's bathroom sink.
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Hi pdxmike
...you're welcome ! Will be posting videos more often in the future, to share the stoke !
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Hello to all
The following is for all curious about the footwells and pivot turning the ACE and for the sake of sharing my opinion with the other ACES.
This is part of a reply i wrote to a paddler in response to the above video in youtube. He inquired about my thoughts on the footwells and if i had problems pivot turning the ACE.
I like the footwells very much for several reasons: they allow me to feel the deepest part of the well, which is also the center of the board and it's most stable point; they raise as one slides back, increasing the leverage on the board fore and aft (handy when doing downwinders);they keep my knees and feet aligned while paddling, eliminating knee pain caused by unknowingly twisting one leg while paddling (also allowing a straighter catch);they also help to brace the feet against the outer well when in chop.
The footwells fade into a flat area aft of the "cockpit" without a center ridge. This spot allows one to place a foot sideways for surfing a swell or, pivot turning. Not that I need to go back there, because this board, with counterpressure and a slight angling of the blade, is able to draw a wide turn, even against the wind and chop, by just sliding back 6 inches from center paddling stance. For pivot turns, a full one foot back from center stance is all you need: why? It's a very narrow pintail, so the stern sinks easily as you weight it and, the fin is located almost 2 feet forward of the stern.
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Thanks for the video balance_fit. Hey, I was staying at a hotel right by that lagoon for a couple of days on New Year's Eve and New Year's Day. I called around trying to see if I could get a board rental but wasn't able to find one due to the holiday.
I've taken a couple of videos on my NEW and I prefer the view when the camera is mounted on the front of the board. When viewed from the front, I can see the swells more clearly - at least when I'm using my camera, which has a narrow field of view like your camera.
I've already posted it before but in case you didn't see it back then, here's a video I took last August on Lake Ontario:
Downwinder TWC to Centre Island Pier (21 mph NE wind) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYDynUZvaDc&feature=player_embedded#)
I was on my 12'6"x23.5" NEW.
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Excellent video Argosi !
I do remember having seen your video once, before i even became interested in the ACE. If i had seen it again, i would've bought the ACE even sooner ! Quite good swells at the lake...I see you have excellent balance, and you're on a 12'6" x 23.5" !
For me, paddling the ACE reminds me of when i used to inline skate a lot. Quite a bit of play in the ankles but always in balance. I feel that's the cue for paddling these designs, let it roll !
Next time you come down here, contact me, i'll set you up and we'll go for good paddling sessions.
I'm going to install another clip for a bow mount on my ACE. Let's see how it goes. This saturday promises good winds if the high pressure stays around ;D ;D ;D
Thanks for the video, be well
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I'm small and light so I have a reasonable chance to stay on my 23.5" board. If I get to San Juan, I'll let you know. Sure wouldn't mind paddling there now as we still have quite a bit of ice where I paddle.
Look me up if you're ever in Toronto as well.
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Balance_fit
Did you manage to do the GPS trial on your foot position? I find myself moving backwards and forwards and not getting as far back as you mentioned.
Also have you tried taking long (way past the feet) strokes on this board? The pin tail seems to like them
Cheers
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I see you have excellent balance, and you're on a 12'6" x 23.5" !
Funny you should mention that.
Have any of you taken the time to actually measure the width of your Ace/New? Curious thing, I currently have on loan from the distributor a 27" Ace demo for the time trials we are doing and it felt really wide compared with my 25. I measured the 27 and sure enough, the outer edges of the board at the widest point come in at an even 27". So I measured the 25. At the most, this board is 24" wide. WTF?
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I see you have excellent balance, and you're on a 12'6" x 23.5" !
Funny you should mention that.
Have any of you taken the time to actually measure the width of your Ace/New? Curious thing, I currently have on loan from the distributor a 27" Ace demo for the time trials we are doing and it felt really wide compared with my 25. I measured the 27 and sure enough, the outer edges of the board at the widest point come in at an even 27". So I measured the 25. At the most, this board is 24" wide. WTF?
Its the BMW nomenclature thing....call a 1.8 engined car a 320 because it 'goes' like a 2 litre car. Anyway if the called it a 14 x 24" no one would buy it ;D
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Balance_fit
Did you manage to do the GPS trial on your foot position? I find myself moving backwards and forwards and not getting as far back as you mentioned.
Also have you tried taking long (way past the feet) strokes on this board? The pin tail seems to like them
Cheers
Kaihoe !
Just coming back from a rather wild session. Only 2 paddlers braved the conditions today at our spot. The ACE was brilliant, allowing me to paddle against 23 knot winds to setup for the short dw and repeat the circuit some 10 times.
Haven't been able to do the test. It's been blowing nonstop here for several weeks now. But, i got some info.
The toes flush with the aft drains now has become my downwind running stance.(My balance has improved, actually)
I have migrated forward to toes flush with the fore drains for flats and catching bumps. Once on the bump, if not steering, a hop back to flush with aft drains. If steering is needed, opposite side foot goes flush with aft drains. If the bump becomes scary steep, a little hop further back is all i need.
If i try to catch bumps with my toes flush with the aft drains, the board just won't go or requires more exertion to take off. Hop forward to the fore drains, and fly.
Regarding paddling, i try to pull the blade out ahead of the feet, actually pulling it at the feet. I use a Werner Fuse, and if i pull further back it sounds like i'm lifting buckets..
Still got that GPS test in mind for when the winds subside....
Be well !
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I see you have excellent balance, and you're on a 12'6" x 23.5" !
Funny you should mention that.
Have any of you taken the time to actually measure the width of your Ace/New? Curious thing, I currently have on loan from the distributor a 27" Ace demo for the time trials we are doing and it felt really wide compared with my 25. I measured the 27 and sure enough, the outer edges of the board at the widest point come in at an even 27". So I measured the 25. At the most, this board is 24" wide. WTF?
I did the measuring too, while my wife looked at me and rolled her eyes ::) in disbelief....yes, it never gets even close to 25 inches wide ! No wonder it flies ! If someone ever told me that i would be paddling a 24 inch wide board i would have never believed it... this ACE won't cease to amaze me.
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Its the BMW nomenclature thing....call a 1.8 engined car a 320 because it 'goes' like a 2 litre car. Anyway if the called it a 14 x 24" no one would buy it ;D
True indeed, no one would dare climb on a 24 inch wide sup...the trick here is that this one is called a 25 inch wide but it 'goes' like a surfski and has the stability of a 28 inch wide...
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You're probably right Jonathan, they learned their lesson with the discontinued K14, which was 24" wide and no-one bought it. You'd have to be crazy to paddle a 24" wide board. ;D
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Roughly how much speed advantage does this have over an Open Ocean? 20% 30% (I know it depends on conditions and paddler. Your choice.)
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Roughly how much speed advantage does this have over an Open Ocean? 20% 30% (I know it depends on conditions and paddler. Your choice.)
Zacksc
This is a very open question ! I feel that the paddler needs to test ACE vs OO back to back, gps referenced, both in flats and bump to have a rough idea of speed for each in either conditions and quantify differences. And test extensively.
In general, from the design specs, the OO is designed to allow the paddler to be in better position to go faster in a rough, blown out downwind because of rocker and width. If the downwind is small and/or light wind, the paddler on an ACE may have the advantage, if balance isn't an issue.
Going against wind, light or harder, in flatter waters, the ACE should have an edge over the OO. If the waters get rough, confused or the paddler has issues with balance, the OO paddler may have the edge.
In general, balance challenged paddlers could have more stability on the OO which may translate to speed, the rougher it gets.
Then, there is the Coastal Runner, an OO with less rocker and same width, possibly faster than the OO in flats and moderate downwinds. In this conditions, if balance challenged, the ACE paddler could have difficulty and the CR may be the answer.
There's zoners much better qualified to talk about these models than me.
I come from paddling a LahuiKai Mitcho 14, an excellent shape, and although a bit more stable than the ACE in some situations (pivot turning) it's blown away by the ACE in straight line speed and small downwinds. So, the extra stability available in turns on the LK, although it might help in short courses with many buoy turns, is not enough of a factor in all other straight line speed considerations.
You need to test each and all other similar models available. If the conditions you paddle regularly are predictable and within a narrow range of wind and swell you will be able to hit the correct board shape easier. If conditions vary wildly, you might need 2 boards or favor the design that helps you the most to handle the hardest situations.
Be well
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Kaihoe !
Just coming back from a rather wild session. Only 2 paddlers braved the conditions today at our spot. The ACE was brilliant, allowing me to paddle against 23 knot winds to setup for the short dw and repeat the circuit some 10 times.
Haven't been able to do the test. It's been blowing nonstop here for several weeks now. But, i got some info.
The toes flush with the aft drains now has become my downwind running stance.(My balance has improved, actually)
I have migrated forward to toes flush with the fore drains for flats and catching bumps. Once on the bump, if not steering, a hop back to flush with aft drains. If steering is needed, opposite side foot goes flush with aft drains. If the bump becomes scary steep, a little hop further back is all i need.
If i try to catch bumps with my toes flush with the aft drains, the board just won't go or requires more exertion to take off. Hop forward to the fore drains, and fly.
Regarding paddling, i try to pull the blade out ahead of the feet, actually pulling it at the feet. I use a Werner Fuse, and if i pull further back it sounds like i'm lifting buckets..
Still got that GPS test in mind for when the winds subside....
Be well !
You've pretty much described where I stand, although I rarely get the far back, when I need my weight back I tend to lean back
BTW I had a chance to compare my 2011 with a 2012 the other day, the 2012 has better balance and feels lighter. My 2011 is tail heavy in comparison
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Balance_fit
Did you manage to do the GPS trial on your foot position? I find myself moving backwards and forwards and not getting as far back as you mentioned.
Cheers
Hi Kaihoe
Yesterday, while on a long, flat/choppy paddle session, i was able to get a flat windless spot and test gps speeds against stance positions.
I found better glide and speed with my toes flush with the front drain holes in pure windless flats.
Sliding back to toes halfway between drains didn't affect speed much but allowed for improved sidewind tracking.
Sliding back to toes flush with the rear drains (my favored small downwind stance so far)increased stability slightly but reduced glide and speed while increasing turning into side wind capability.
I weight 165 lbs...
Be well
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Roughly how much speed advantage does this have over an Open Ocean? 20% 30% (I know it depends on conditions and paddler. Your choice.)
Something like that ;D
We've had a good paddler/waterman running a variety of boards at the local sprint races, he's was running surf race/oo style boards and finishing mid-20s, jumped on a 12'6" ACE an finished 10th. Any top 10 finisher in that series would make a respectable showing in an elite race.
I have powered past stronger paddlers on OO style boards when I'm on the ACE, these are guys I wouldn't be able to keep up with on a comparable board
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Balance_fit
Did you manage to do the GPS trial on your foot position? I find myself moving backwards and forwards and not getting as far back as you mentioned.
Cheers
Hi Kaihoe
Yesterday, while on a long, flat/choppy paddle session, i was able to get a flat windless spot and test gps speeds against stance positions.
I found better glide and speed with my toes flush with the front drain holes in pure windless flats.
Sliding back to toes halfway between drains didn't affect speed much but allowed for improved sidewind tracking.
Sliding back to toes flush with the rear drains (my favored small downwind stance so far)increased stability slightly but reduced glide and speed while increasing turning into side wind capability.
I weight 165 lbs...
Be well
Balance,
My unscientific feel is I get bested glide standing about half way back, I go foward when I want to bust throguh chop going upwind, or for catching stuff and getting up to speed downwind. Once I'm at speed I tend to stay about half way between the drains. if I get much further back than that the board tends to stall. I'm 200lbs ......
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Balance_fit
Did you manage to do the GPS trial on your foot position? I find myself moving backwards and forwards and not getting as far back as you mentioned.
Cheers
Hi Kaihoe
Yesterday, while on a long, flat/choppy paddle session, i was able to get a flat windless spot and test gps speeds against stance positions.
I found better glide and speed with my toes flush with the front drain holes in pure windless flats.
Sliding back to toes halfway between drains didn't affect speed much but allowed for improved sidewind tracking.
Sliding back to toes flush with the rear drains (my favored small downwind stance so far)increased stability slightly but reduced glide and speed while increasing turning into side wind capability.
I weight 165 lbs...
Be well
Balance,
My unscientific feel is I get bested glide standing about half way back, I go foward when I want to bust throguh chop going upwind, or for catching stuff and getting up to speed downwind. Once I'm at speed I tend to stay about half way between the drains. if I get much further back than that the board tends to stall. I'm 200lbs ......
Excellent info Kaihoe
I still got to practice way more on my ACE. Haven't been on it 10 times yet ! Will be working with the 'between drains' stance positions and hopefully get another downwinder set to explore how it goes.
The truth is that this ACE really flies...
Be well
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Some more insight....
Just did an Offshore, cross/downwinder today SW 15+ knots on a NNW shoreline, and did the reverse run yesterday with a NE and 4 foot NE swell (our weather is nuts at the moment).
With the majority of the swell coming from the side I'm spending a lot of time with the opposite foot forward and steering the board on the bow (the funky displacement style steering where your pushing the outer fornt down to steer - like skis), when things are going well I have been back behind the drain holes. When I've lost the swell or genarlly not feeling it I've been along way foward. I even had my right foot psat the front of the foot well this morning.
And just for interest I did a quick measure on my 2011. The widest point is 24.5" inches
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Kaihoe
Looks like you got the ACE pretty well understood. In my case, 4 ft swells on a downwinder, even in the most perfect wind and swell match would be quite a challenge.
But your insight is very informative, and I should practice that stance whenever a similar combination of conditions arise here. Almost all downwinders I've done so far on the ACE are side offshore conditions in which the steering I favor is towards shore, at the expense of catching runs, for the sake of safety.
In some instances I've been able to chase a run by using a stance similar to yours. Even so, I've kept the reins held back on the ACE...just a bit of power downwind and the board seems to want to take off without me !
Be well