Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Gear Talk => Topic started by: BSLNoel on July 25, 2011, 07:39:45 AM
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Got an escort home from the police last night while out for a sunset paddle. Said I had to have a coast guard approved PFD and lights on my board. Leash would not suffice. Anyone ever deal with the light issue? I have a GoPro mount on the front, maybe I can mount something there.
What are the smallest approved PFDs I can bungee on the front?
TIA
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These PFDs are perfect for SUP.
Good luck
http://jupiterkiteboarding.com/store/paddleboarding-paddleboarding-pfds-c-199_563.html (http://jupiterkiteboarding.com/store/paddleboarding-paddleboarding-pfds-c-199_563.html)
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Here in AZ, we were told by the fuzz that the board serves as a PFD as long as you have a leash on. Any kids riding have to have a PFD though. I'd look and see if you can make that work. I'll take a leash anyday.
And on the light, we purchased a Kayalite Deck, Anchor and Stern Light for $40. I put a zip tie on the leash plug and it attaches perfectly to it. Was thinking of redoing the leash cord so I could just use that.
http://www.kayalu.com/k/kayalite-portable-LED-kayak-light-boat-light-deck-anchor-stern-light.php (http://www.kayalu.com/k/kayalite-portable-LED-kayak-light-boat-light-deck-anchor-stern-light.php)
Did see after that REI has a light with a suction cup base that I've seen on a lot of the sculls out there. Might grab one of these too.
http://www.rei.com/product/722830/paddlers-supply-company-led-kayak-deck-light-with-suction-cup-base (http://www.rei.com/product/722830/paddlers-supply-company-led-kayak-deck-light-with-suction-cup-base)
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Get a headlamp such as a petzl.... regs seems to call for a minimum of a light you can switch on prior to a collision....
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/index.php?pageName=Rule25 (http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/index.php?pageName=Rule25)
John
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Hey BSLNoel , check out www.wholesalemarine.com as they are a good source for suction cup mounted bow an stern lights .
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good topic - I tend to go out for evening paddles and have returned to the launch well past sunset. I do wear a waist belt pfd and I do carry a headlamp in my backpack but actually have not tested it yet. I might consider one of these stern lights especially if it can be taken off easily and wont mess with my board. I wonder if any can mount to a deck pad as my SB SUPer is completely covered. One of these Could prove worthy for night fishing.
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The suction cup bow light I have is great ($25). It has strobe settings and acts as a flashlight when removed from the mount. One important distinction is that the coast guard requires the light has to be visible 360 degrees. A directional headlamp may not be visible to craft outside of your view.
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Suggest you don't get anything for the bow of board; it's too low to water to be of any use and will ruin your night vision, even if red/grn suction cup battery powered type, effectively being more dangerous than no light at all.
Most laws for human-powered vessels just require a light, any light. Suggest a headlamp with red lens flip cover so you can put on high white beam when you see/hear a boat coming near and use red lens when you need close light. Or, a little maglite with lanyard for around your neck (where you can attach the whistle). You could duct-tape a cheap PFD to rear of board and that should satisfy that requirement. Above all, act friendly and compliant when confronted and that usually goes a long way with the authorities...usually. When it doesn't, not much to do but paddle in, and go out the next night with a different shift.
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That's my understanding, too. JC50. I looked it up a while ago. The only thing you need extra for being legal at night is a light (mine's white, which I believe is required, but I'm not sure) that can be turned on to make yourself visible to other traffic. There's no requirement for a light that stays on.
Of course if I were maui_husky out paddling in Lake Union at night, with boats going every direction, airplanes landing, etc. I'd want a suction cup light. Some kayakers use shielded ones that aren't visible 360 degrees, to protect their night vision. SUPs can use a shielded or directional light also, since it's not required (but you still need the light that you can turn on and aim at traffic when necessary).
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Had my first run-in about the PFD/SUP thingy last weekend. We were getting all the family members out on the ICW at a local boat ramp when (after about and hour of paddling) we were approached by an officer of the FWC. I have to admit the guy was really cool about it all and simply asked if we knew that SUPs were classified as "vessels" and therefore were exposed to the same rules as small boats, canoes and kayaks. No tickets were handed out, not even a formal warning, but he did advise us that they were going to start enforcing the rules on SUPs. We just packed it up for the day and thanked him for being so nice about it...
I did a lot of searching this board on PFD info/design and ended up buying 3 of the Stearns Belt PFD's at BassPro.com. They were around $59 each; plus they had the whistles for another $3.50, or so (don't forget the whistles-vbg)... Next time we paddle in the bays, rivers, or ICW of Florida, we'll be LEGAL... Paddle on, JD
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Nighttime paddling is very cool. Get out and try it!
more specifics on the regs:
After some research, the 360 rule I saw was taken from Texas regs (maybe other states, too). Washington has no specific laws beyond USCG's.
Texas:
"All vessels including motorboats, sailboats, canoes, kayaks, punts, rowboats, rubber rafts, or other vessels when not at dock must have and exhibit at least one bright light, lantern or flashlight visible all around the horizon from sunset to sunrise in all weather and during restricted visibility. "
National USCG regulations:
"Vessels under oars may display the lights prescribed for sailing vessels, but if not, must have ready at hand an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light to be displayed in sufficient time to prevent collision"
"sufficient time" : One thing to consider if you're paddling around boat traffic at night is that they can come up on you from behind pretty quickly (esp. if they don't see you). I started putting my light on the back for this reason (btw/ it is annoying to look at on the bow). Unless you're constantly looking back or trusting boaters to be vigilant, I wouldn't count on having sufficient time to turn on your light.
One way or another, do what's safe and have fun.
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When I rowed on San Francisco Bay starting in the dark, I wore a bike tail light fastened to the back of my hat. Plus, I wore those lighted arm bands that runners can wear. These have different settings, from always on to flashing. Be seen.
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I got a few of these off of Steepandcheap.com just for this purpose. Still haven't tried them yet.
http://www.departmentofgoods.com/princeton-tec-pilot-led-light (http://www.departmentofgoods.com/princeton-tec-pilot-led-light)
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maui_husky--you're right about not trusting boaters to be vigilant. In the Willamette last summer, this guy hit an island:
http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=8996.0 (http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=8996.0)
I figure that if someone can not notice an island, they might not notice me.
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Wait? Where are the guys crying about having to do this?
Are we growing up and realizing that we have a responsibility to be safe out on the water? Or is this one just so obvious even the purists can't argue it?
Surely not. ;)
Been out of the country, good to be home and good to see you guys on here.
I stuff a couple of light sticks in my PFD for if I'm caught out late so folks can hopefully not run me over.
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I'm not too happy about this being considered a vessel, mainly for storage reasons. It's a surfboard and I want to utilize the front of it. I don't want a PFD up there all of the time. I don't want to carry one out to the beach (really shallow bay in the Gulf of Mexico) when I'm letting my son push around my wife on the board. I don't want to have 2 PFDs on it when my son (who is already wearing one) and my wife pile on to go up river to a sandbar.
I just think there are tons of applications where the board IS being used as a flotation device. I understand there are others where it's used more as a boat too. In my original post I was using it as a boat, and for those times I will abide by the rules.
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I'm all for RATIONAL regulations. A light on your board at night is rational. A PFD attached to the nose with no leash is NOT. $389 fine on the Columbia is you don't have a PFD and whistle. But it's all OK if you tie those to the front leash plug and go out in the middle of mighty Columbia in 50 degree water, flowing at 5 mph with the wind blowing at 45 kts with no leash.
The PFD requirement as it stands is bureaucratic nonsense. A light at night is not.
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^^^ This man speaks the truth!
I have convinced the Police and Fire Dept. (who patrol our river here) that a leash and whistle are all you need.
They were both my idea - and were glad when I proposed a whistle as well as a leash.
Fox 40 makes an incredibly loud an tiny whistle - I keep it either in my trunks pocket or attache to my hydration pack.
A leash on moving water is a no brainer - and in reality it should be a no brainer on all water.
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The pfd issue resurfaces every few weeks here, as new people find out that they're required. And each time, someone new asks why a pfd should be required if you're leashed to your board, especially when that provides far more safety than a pfd attached to a board that can get away from you.
And it's still the question that has never been answered convincingly. Just about everyone here uses leashes voluntarily, and I bet everyone paddling at night would carry a light even if there were no requirement. There are also lots of people here who also wear pfds for safety, and would continue to even without a requirement. But nobody would ever strap a pfd onto their board for safety reasons. They only do it to meet the requirement.
I saw dozens of people on rental SUPs in Seattle last weekend, all with their el-cheapo pfds strapped to their boards. Some had leashes, some not. It looked ridiculous--they serve no purpose other than to meet the law. What are they going to do if they need flotation--pull themselves back to their board with their leash, then get on the board and put on the pfd? ???
I wish local jurisdictions here could act like they do in Easy Rider's case, and make their own policies based on common sense. Instead, they simply enforce the Coast Guard rule (as I assume they must, legally) even if they agree it makes no sense. And the leash-versus-pfd question never gets answered.
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Today I was told that paddlers in Newport Harbor have been stopped & given a warning for not having a pfd. I always wear a leash. I certainly have passed Harbor Patrol, waves exchanged, without being stopped. Has anyone here been stopped?
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I exchanged pleasantries with the county sheriff last week about 1/4 mile out in Lake Michigan. Calm day, wearing leash and whistle, no PDF. they basically told me to enjoy the beautiful morning. With that being said, I think i might invest in one of the waist belt PFDs just to error on the side of caution when I'm out on the "big lake".
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I had a little discussion yesterday with the cop who gave me a ticket a few weeks ago. I said "tell me this, say you're on a boat in the columbia all by yourself. The boat sinks. would you be happier to have a SUP board leashed to your ankle or a PFD around your waist". Took some prying, but he admitted he'd rather have the board to be on than be bobbing in 50 degree water (actually the river is pretty warm now, but what the heck).
And so would anyone who isn't a complete moron.
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I did an open water swim race in Seattle last weekend. For safety, the course was lined with kayaks and especially lifeguards on paddleboards. It's ironic that paddleboards are used as a rescue device/vehicle, but count as nothing when leashed to a paddler's ankle. It's also ironic that if the lifeguards had carried paddles, they could have been cited for not having pfds on board.
I noticed that all the lifeguards chose paddleboards--none were riding pfds.
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One person's rational regulation and another person's reality regarding safety are all dependent on the situation. One regulation across all environments and users rarely passes the common sense test in every case and falls far short of the intended purpose of the reg.
In some places, leashes are a hazard and the light requirement is enforced for purely bureaucratic reasons but I always wear a pfd when paddling. Since spring, there have been 3 to 4 drownings a month within 20 miles of my home. In all but two cases, pfds were not being worn and would have changed the outcome. People wading in the lake that don't know how to swim or diving off a boat are not required by these regulations to wear a pfd. Go figure ???
If sup is going to go inland as the hype would have us believe, pfd use among sup paddlers will need to become as common as pfd use in whitewater today. Death and injury in whitewater has been well documented and if for no other reason, a pfd helps to keep your lifeless body on the surface and provides something to grab on to by the swiftwater body recovery team. It is one thing for a surfer or paddler to pick up a sup and go because of the background experience in water. It is very different for some dude in Ohio to rent a sup and head to the lake or river without any understanding of the environment or his/her skills in it.
In my world, I'll take comfort in a pfd, helmet, knife, cold weather gear and maybe a throw rope for water sports all depending on the enviroment. The light and whistle aren't going to do me very much good.
I have a vested interest in my safety while on the water and really don't need the assistance of law enforcement or a legislator.
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Paddlieanything
I totally believe in not going unless you can self rescue.
I can't agree with the pfd requirement as the board attached is the best pfd unless, one becomes unconscious or incapable of floating a pfd will keep you face up. That is why I am for a pfd for most areas other than a surf zone. Its not any good unless its on.
The light is a limited visibility safety devise. At nite boating is a whole different story. High speeds which some do has caused great harm and death. Its really hard to read the water at nite with all the lites so I boat a lot slower in limited visibility than during lit conditions. A round white lite is required on a small vessel during limited visibility yet there have been to many accidents of bigger vessels properly lit by more than just a round lite, by others driving to fast.
Around here nite paddleing would be a bit dangerous. Not due to crowded conditions but more so because of harsh conditions and big fish. If I were to enjoy a nite paddle the conditions would have to be just right and I would have a round white lite, a whistle and a pfd, possibly a hand held gps and vhf would also be on board and someone would know when to expect me back and where I am going to be. A bit more than required but all necessary for personal safety.
I have a vested interest in my safety while on the water and really don't need the assistance of law enforcement or a legislator.
Hopefully we will never need le but I am sure glad they are there to help.
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Whenever I have a brush with "the law", I always follow my arguments with this phrase. ;D
And so would anyone who isn't a complete moron.
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I paddle on a big lake and haven't been approached by the "law" yet; I carry a pfd strapped to my board just in case. The leash makes sense to me now. As you can see from this picture the lake is pretty big (this pic is about the center of the largest part of the lake and is in the middle of my 8.63 mile route.) This is just after sunrise. I have a light that clips to the brim of my cap that I have on prior to sun up. Don't know if that would be any good in the eyes of the law but it makes me feel a little better thinking other boaters can see me.
Will
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Around here nite paddleing would be a bit dangerous. Not due to crowded conditions but more so because of harsh conditions and big fish.
Big fish? Leaping onto the board? Bumping the board from below? :)
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I'd love to hear of a situation where a PFD attached to a SUP is of any use at all other than keeping you from being fined. That would take some creative writing.
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maybe when you stumble and land face-first on it....
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You'd think that when the Coast Guard created the regulations affecting SUPs that at some point a group sat down and discussed what regulations would make sense for SUPs from a safety standpoint. But there was no requirement that that ever happened, nor any reason to believe that it did.
Instead, the discussion was limited to whether SUPs met the existing definition of "vessels". Once it was determined that they did, then the Coast Guard applied the existing regulations for vessels to them. It's nice to think that there was a review at that point to determine if those regulations made sense or promoted safety when applied to SUPs, but I've never seen anything showing that the Coast Guard felt that was even relevant.
Then when people complained (like Strand Leper and the HPWA) complain, or make a reasonable request that allows leashes as an alternative to pfds, the Coast Guard either ignores them, or defends the "vessel" classification. But to my knowledge, the Coast Guard has never bothered to even argue that the regulations make sense from a safety standpoint, let alone show that they do.
And all the local authorities that enforce regulations also just do that based on the Coast Guard regulations, with the few exceptions people have posted.
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PB, I agree completely that a pfd taped to the deck of a sup is useless from a safety standpoint. I also question the benefits of those over priced waist worn inflatable pfds and those crap $2 orange C.G. approved pfds.
The C.G. by nature is bureaucratic. I've heard from those that manufacture pfds that it cost them between 20 and 30 thousand dollars to get their new designs C.G. approved. Silly really, considering those people designing and manufacturing pfds are also using and testing them in real world environments.
A leash substitute for a pfd is a bit silly as well. I could see the jet ski community arguing that they don't need a pfd if the rider is leashed to the vessel hell you can ride a motorcycle in some states without a helmet.
In a nutshell, it is a law enforcement issue. Whereas I would prefer that they focus on crimes against people and property, they would rather focus on writing citations as tools of the nanny state such as the $150 ticket from the DNR ranger for paddling without a flashlight on an deserted mountain lake.
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I'd love to hear of a situation where a PFD attached to a SUP is of any use at all other than keeping you from being fined. That would take some creative writing.
BTW: Congrats on going over 5k posts, Bill... That's amazing! Paddle (and post) on, JD
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This discussion highlights the fact that we as SUP users need to be more involved in getting these regulations changed.
To date the complaints have been many, but outside of the efforts of the HPWA, the actions of zone members been minimal at best. The fines are only going to increase as the sport grows and more people are on the water, so we need to make some noise to keep the attention on the issue.
Rather than complain about it, help out the HPWA and take the few minutes required to send an email to your local municiple and federal representative outlining the stupidity of the regulation as most people don't understand it until it is explained to them and then the light comes on.
I'm actively working on the Canadian equivalent as fines have started to surface here this year. To date, I don't think anyone has even bothered to bring up the topic in Canada as it hasn't been an issue until recently. My local federal representative and several levels of Transport Canada have all been served now though, so we'll wait to see if they recognize the foolishness of their ways.
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Here's a man trying to change the system in Canada. Bob Purdy and Paddle for the Planet is spearheading an effort to have the Canadian Marine Advisory Council (CMAC) and Transport Canada recognize the use of a standup paddleboard as a suitable safety alternative when used in combination with a standard surf-style board leash as it provides the user with a readily accessible, inherently buoyant safety device that reduces the likelihood of personal injury or death in a manner that exceeds the level of safety afforded to the user under the current requirement of a PFD (worn or not) and no board leash.
If you're American and an avid SUPer, I'm sure you can also follow the directions and email the council to help the cause and your fellow SUPers up north.
http://www.paddlefortheplanet.ca/pfd-2012/ (http://www.paddlefortheplanet.ca/pfd-2012/)