Author Topic: Surf Stance Issues On Smaller Board - Three steps forward two steps back  (Read 11006 times)

seadart

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Another thing that Erik does is flick his board away with his feet.
He takes the lip bouncing the board into him, out of the equation....a great way to stay safe.

If you surf in California line-ups I don't recommend kicking the board away from you to ditch the board in the break ....  not going to keep you safe from the  prone boardies and not very diplomatic for the rest of us on SUPS.

surfafrica

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It may be interesting to note that Creek (Rick) often paddles on his heel side when going for a wave. He's the only one I know who does this. I've tried it and still can't figure out how he makes it work.

Ha! I'm a toe-side paddler for sure.  In this clip, I was going to turn toward the toe side as usual, but the wave clearly called for me to paddle toward the heal side.  I remember thinking as I approached the wave "this feels weird, but Creek swears by it".  Clearly didn't work out too well for me!

https://youtu.be/SjDzfd-Z6lg
50 years old, 5'7", 150 lbs, intermediate
Infinity RNB: 7'6 x 28, 95 L https://goo.gl/SqlWR4
Kronos LB: 8'10 x 26.5, 84 L https://goo.gl/4iQdps
Kronos Nano: 7'4 x 26, 81 L https://goo.gl/kAM8W6

Night Wing

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@surfafrica

Just curious as always.

In the video, you seem to be on a long length board. If you don't me asking, what is the length of the board as well as the width of the board you were surfing?
Blue Planet Duke: 10'5" x 32" x 4.5" @ 190 Liters (2 Dukes)
Sup Sports Hammer: 8'11" x 31" x 4" @ 140 Liters
SUP Sports One World: 11'1" x 30" x 4.5" @ 173 Liters
CJ Nelson Parallax: 9'3" x 23 1/2" x 3 3/16" @ 78.8 Liters (prone surfing longboard; Thunderbolt Technologies build in Red construction)

surfafrica

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In the video, you seem to be on a long length board. If you don't me asking, what is the length of the board as well as the width of the board you were surfing?

That's my new 8'10 x 26.5, 84 L longboard.  That clip was one of my first waves on it in surf bigger than waist high (hence the elegant nose dive at the end!).

Here's my review of it after my first week:

http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,30640.msg349266.html#msg349266
50 years old, 5'7", 150 lbs, intermediate
Infinity RNB: 7'6 x 28, 95 L https://goo.gl/SqlWR4
Kronos LB: 8'10 x 26.5, 84 L https://goo.gl/4iQdps
Kronos Nano: 7'4 x 26, 81 L https://goo.gl/kAM8W6

Night Wing

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@surfafrica

In your video, it seemed your new Kronos was much longer than 8'10" and wider than (26.5"). The video gave me the impression your Kronos was at least a 10' or longer and I was guessing the width was much more than (26.5").

BTW, that was a nice review with a nice shot of the underside of your new Kronos in the link you provided. Do you have a link to where you got your new Kronos from?
Blue Planet Duke: 10'5" x 32" x 4.5" @ 190 Liters (2 Dukes)
Sup Sports Hammer: 8'11" x 31" x 4" @ 140 Liters
SUP Sports One World: 11'1" x 30" x 4.5" @ 173 Liters
CJ Nelson Parallax: 9'3" x 23 1/2" x 3 3/16" @ 78.8 Liters (prone surfing longboard; Thunderbolt Technologies build in Red construction)

Badger

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NW, if you watch the video again and imagine him laying prone on the board it should give you a better perspective of the board length.

I think the fact that the board is so narrow makes it look like a longer board.
Kalama E3 6'1 x 23" 105L
Axis HPS 980 / PNG 1300
Sunova Flow  8'10 X 31"  119L
Me - 6'0" - 165lbs - 66yo

Night Wing

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When I first saw the video, I didn't realize his 8'10" Kronos is just 1" shorter in length than my 8'11" Hammer. But my Hammer is 31" wide. The narrower 26.5" width of his Kronos sure did make his board seem longer to me.
Blue Planet Duke: 10'5" x 32" x 4.5" @ 190 Liters (2 Dukes)
Sup Sports Hammer: 8'11" x 31" x 4" @ 140 Liters
SUP Sports One World: 11'1" x 30" x 4.5" @ 173 Liters
CJ Nelson Parallax: 9'3" x 23 1/2" x 3 3/16" @ 78.8 Liters (prone surfing longboard; Thunderbolt Technologies build in Red construction)

surfafrica

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NW, I don't want to hijack this thread. I'll post board info in the review thread. But ya, with its width and me being a small guy, the board looks bigger than it is.

I joke about failing on the heel side paddle, but it is something I want to work on this year. I like to "paddle to the peak" when catching waves. I think having the option to confidently paddle on both sides into a wave would awesome. As of now, I'm way more confident on my toe side.

50 years old, 5'7", 150 lbs, intermediate
Infinity RNB: 7'6 x 28, 95 L https://goo.gl/SqlWR4
Kronos LB: 8'10 x 26.5, 84 L https://goo.gl/4iQdps
Kronos Nano: 7'4 x 26, 81 L https://goo.gl/kAM8W6

surfafrica

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I like the way Erik mixes in casual turns, like slow carve building to a "whip" at the end.... very stylish and fun to watch.

Another thing that Erik does is flick his board away with his feet.
He takes the lip bouncing the board into him, out of the equation....a great way to stay safe.

I agree on both counts. I really like his style.  And maybe kicking your board away isn't a good idea at a busy break, but if there is nobody around, I'm a big fan of it too.  I hate falling into the pit with my board churning nearby.

50 years old, 5'7", 150 lbs, intermediate
Infinity RNB: 7'6 x 28, 95 L https://goo.gl/SqlWR4
Kronos LB: 8'10 x 26.5, 84 L https://goo.gl/4iQdps
Kronos Nano: 7'4 x 26, 81 L https://goo.gl/kAM8W6

RATbeachrider

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As stated prior .... practice, practice and more practice.  It will click for you.  I do a surf stance, whether on the 7'7x27 or the 9'0x28 (nose rider SUP), when standing and waiting and when paddling for wave. 

Califoilia

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While this is a few years old from around the time 9' boards were considered "small"...it did help me understand some of the nuances of the differences between "float" and "stability", and how I changed my foot placement, and preconceived volume "requirements" in order to go smaller, and smaller while still being able to paddle around comfortably without tiring myself out too fast, and shortening my sessions.  Anyway, from Corran....

Quote from: Corran Addison
More volume = more stable... (in the traditional sense of course). Add volume and width and its even more stable. Instability comes from a rail diving down, the board sinking and then you loosing balance and falling off. Volume, and volume away from the center line, increases stability.

It takes 8lbs of pressure to sink one gallon of air. Lets assume for this purpose that your board is pure air (no material to make the foam as its close enough for this). If you weigh 200lbs, you need a MINIMUM of 100ltr in your board to have neutral floatation. This is just to float you with the very top of the board right at water level.

Now, stability is not the same as float, but they are related. Stability comes from the ability of the board to "push back" at you when you push down on it. at 100ltr, 50lts is on each side of the stringer. So it takes 100lbs of pressure (weight if you like) to push the right rail into the water. If you're standing centered on the board you're good. As you loose balance (lets say to the right) so you transfer more than 50% of your weight to that rail. Now you have more weight on the rail than the volume is able to push back against, and so it sinks. The more it sinks, the more you loose your balance, and the more weight you transfer onto that already sunk rail, and it sinks more... and more... until you either fall over, OR the "center" of the boards volume passes the 'tilt" point and it flips over (and then you fall).

However, its not that simple. Its not just about how much volume is on each side of the stringer. its also about how FAR it is from the stringer (moment arm), and how much of it is how far from the stringer.

If 70% of my right sides volume is within the first 6" of the board (measured away from the stringer) and only 30% is 15" from the stringer (on a 30" wide board), and I'm standing 10" away from the stringer, then my foot is already outside of the area that has the most foam/floatation. Therefore less pressure (weight) is required to sink the rail.

So... a board that has a lot of rocker, or a lot of outline curve, is going to have less volume out away from the stringer to push back at me than a board with wide ends, low rocker (low rocker engages that volume sooner as its already on the waters surface - rockered boards have a certain amount of the volume lifted out of the water and it only engages after the board starts to lean over). Boards with pinched rails and deck crown are going to have less volume to push back at you.

So... what does this mean?

A 25" wide 9' board that has wide ends and a flat deck with full rails and is 100ltr will be more stable than a 30" wide 9' board with dramatically pulled in ends and pinched rails that has 120ltrs.

But this is overly simplistic... standing height affects stability. For every 1/2" you move up, you need to add on average about 1" per side of width )this is dependent on rocker, width, outline and so on, but its about this) to have the same overall stability, so you get quickly reducing returns on increased volume from increased thickness. Also, as your board gets shorter, so you introduce a new dimension of instability  -end to end sinking which compounds the side to side instability. As you get closer to the "critical" volume for your weight (you and board combined) so reduction in length has an exponential affect on overall stability, and thus moving more volume towards the ends of the board becomes paramount to maintaining that stability.

One solution is to stand closer to the stringer. While this puts you in a position of feeling like you're always "slightly wobbly", its also harder for you to put the kind of pressure on the rails that causes them to sink, as your weight is centered.  Closer feet, kung fu style, will allow you to have much less instability as you're not pushing out on the rails. Pulled in ends, more rocker, pinched rails are all benefits of a tight standing stance as YOU loose YOUR moment-arm of pressure to push on the rails, and thus the board needs less of that moment-arm to push back.

Wide boards, wide ends, flat decks, full rails, low rocker ALL increase stability if you stand with a wide flat stance. The downside is a massive reduction in board performance. As your stance narrows, so you can quickly reduce volume, and more significantly, reduce how far that volume is located away from the central part of the board, and thus shape the board, with a view of more surfing in mind rather than paddling (stability) in mind.

Make sense?

Corran

Narrow stance lets you have a smaller, narrower more progressive shape overall.
Long story short...the closer you're able to keep your feet/weight to the centerline of your board, the more "volume" you have outside your COG to "push up" against any weight you start tipping to one side or the other, and thus the ability to make a lesser volumed board feel more stable. 

Also, height is also a big deciding factor.  So if/when you start feeling yourself tipping or losing your balance.....get down now!  Lower your COG as quickly as possible, and you'll find yourself squatted down on your board, but at least on two feet still....in order to recover/regain your balance with your paddle ("outrigger"), then slowly stand, and continue off on your way again.
Me: 6'1"/185...(2) 5'1" Kings Foil/Wing Boards...7'10 Kings DW Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm if/when the proning urges still hit.

Eagle

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"Closer feet, kung fu style, will allow you to have much less instability as you're not pushing out on the rails."

"Narrow stance lets you have a smaller, narrower more progressive shape overall."

"Long story short...the closer you're able to keep your feet/weight to the centerline of your board, the more "volume" you have outside your COG to "push up" against any weight..."

^ All valid for me as well.  Especially beneficial on narrower boards like the AS23.  Only time anywhere near the edge is angling cutting into a wave DW to maintain control.
Fast is FUN!   8)
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PonoBill

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Took me a long time to learn that when you're feeling unstable, move your feet closer together. When I see newbs braced out with their feet on the rails I want to tell them what to do, but I know it won't work. The first time Dave Kalama told me to move my feet closer together I thought "easy for you to say".
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

seadart

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SanoSUp  Thanks for that post from Corran, yup I have figured out that keeping your feet closer to the center of the board and keeping low is key.   I've noticed watching the best SUP surfers and they all get their feet centered over the center line and very much in a " short boarder " stance.   The spirit is willing but the flesh is week.  I do notice I am gradually getting the hang of it,  and just when I think I am going to break through we have a really choppy day and I am back to weeble-woble take offs. It's a lot more challenging than a long board but much bigger rush when you get it right.


robcasey

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While sliding or jumping about, make sure your paddle is in the water engaged. This means either you're paddling even with short cadence strokes, or you're doing a sweeping brace, meaning sweeping the blade in a forward sweeping motion on the water surface hydroplaning with the leading edge up.  Obviously if you're on a wave that momentum provides stability for easier footwork.  And as one mentioned below, try a semi-surf staggered stance, so not 100% on stringer, more a mix of surf stance and paddling stance (flatwater stance). 

Tips for the sweeping brace..
http://stokemagazine.blogspot.com/2016/10/stay-drier-with-sweeping-brace.html
Rob Casey
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