Author Topic: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards  (Read 10140 times)

ukgm

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #135 on: March 20, 2017, 02:32:03 PM »
Yep.  Strength is one aspect.  But power application to the paddle blade propelling your board forward is key for sure.  If one wants to be more competitive and faster -> simply just drop kgs of fat and put on kgs of muscle mass.  Plus improve balance and endurance and nutrition blah blah blah.  Easy peasy really.  Just that most do not want to do this is all.  Or maybe cannot.  But weight is just a singular issue.  Strength and power and low BF really are important determinants.

This needs to be measured but if it's anything like swimming or cycling, it's not a strength issue as the applied forces are comparably small. Dropping excess weight is good but putting on excess muscle (for what is fundamentally an aerobic sport) is a bad idea.
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Eagle

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #136 on: March 20, 2017, 02:58:56 PM »
Yeah would agree that "excess" muscle is a bad idea ie big muscled BB.  But if under-muscled and more fatted up with too much IMTG and excess blubber -> then adding muscle mass is a good idea.  Most peeps fall in this category.  I lost about 25 lbs of fat about 3 yrs ago really quite easily - and my DEXA kinda looks like the 20yo kid before he gained 20 kgs.  My point for my age is also below the -2SD line.  Best thing ever for my health.  Hands down.  Makes any sport I do now so much easier -> without a doubt.

A quick way to measure is count the # of muscle ups or pull ups over your chin.  Another is to see how much you can unrack and squat or DL.  Is rough and dirty but works ok for a simple strength indicator.  You do need muscle mass for power etc.
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ukgm

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #137 on: March 20, 2017, 03:55:35 PM »
Yeah would agree that "excess" muscle is a bad idea ie big muscled BB.  But if under-muscled and more fatted up with too much IMTG and excess blubber -> then adding muscle mass is a good idea.  Most peeps fall in this category.  I lost about 25 lbs of fat about 3 yrs ago really quite easily - and my DEXA kinda looks like the 20yo kid before he gained 20 kgs.  My point for my age is also below the -2SD line.  Best thing ever for my health.  Hands down.  Makes any sport I do now so much easier -> without a doubt.

A quick way to measure is count the # of muscle ups or pull ups over your chin.  Another is to see how much you can unrack and squat or DL.  Is rough and dirty but works ok for a simple strength indicator.  You do need muscle mass for power etc.

Age in, I'd disagree. It's an aerobic sport and the applied forces are low. Paddlers would be better served working on their aerobic engine. It's not a strength sport.
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Eagle

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #138 on: March 20, 2017, 05:25:58 PM »
Was thinking that the aerobic side of the equation was a given from my perspective.  Most I know are fit and have really good endurance.  Many run marathons and ultras.  You can see in the images posted that many lose huge amts of muscle mass over time.  Normally that muscle mass is swapped directly for fat mass.  And huge weight gain.  That is just the reality for the huge majority.  Sarcopenia and fat gain.

Certainly those that have poor endurance need to ramp that aspect up as well.  With 70% OW or obese -> says a lot about the health of the majority.  Main concern really is fat mass loss then muscle retention then endurance.  No need for endurance if there is no muscle mass.  Little Finn is a good example of small muscle mass with very low body fat and good endurance.  Once that boy fills out with more muscle mass -> he will probs be a major force.

Until then -> his low body fat and aerobic endurance will only take him so far.  But obviously every circumstance is different.  Some need muscle.  Some need endurance.  Most need to lose fat mass.  My wife has really good endurance and balance -> but lacks muscle mass for example.  So there is no definitive single answer.
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gzasinets

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #139 on: March 20, 2017, 09:18:51 PM »
Agree with Eagle here. Strength/weight ratio is very important. Squat 315 and deadlift 400 and you will paddle faster. Want to train endurance- lift weights in 20+ plus rep range and develop your slow twitch muscles. Running or whatever else 99% of folks are doing to improve their endurance will mostly lead to muscle loss/skinny fat look. It is a proven fact. Funny that people buy into the idea of cardio training - where as heart is the most trained muscle in our bodies and it does not need more training. Work on building more metachondria ;)
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ukgm

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #140 on: March 21, 2017, 12:18:31 AM »
Agree with Eagle here. Strength/weight ratio is very important. Squat 315 and deadlift 400 and you will paddle faster. Want to train endurance- lift weights in 20+ plus rep range and develop your slow twitch muscles. Running or whatever else 99% of folks are doing to improve their endurance will mostly lead to muscle loss/skinny fat look. It is a proven fact. Funny that people buy into the idea of cardio training - where as heart is the most trained muscle in our bodies and it does not need more training. Work on building more metachondria ;)

I think people are using strength and power synonymously which makes this discussion confusing. We need to be talking about power (a product of applied force and cadence). Most of the statements above feel a bit like 1970's sports science. For a start:

1) its not just about the heart, its about aerobic economy. Plus once you get past 35 seconds, an activity is powered mainly by your aerobic system. Your ATP and high force isn't much use past the first 6 or 7 seconds and specificity is needed so if the weights training you are doing is applied at a slower rate than paddling, its not going to contribute helpfully.
2) Peoples vo2 max for a start declines after 30 and gets worse after 40. This requires aerobic orientated fitness work to hang onto.
3) Show me any proof that squats and deadlifts lead to faster paddling.
4) Be aware of natural selection - if you want to look at anecdotes alone,, the only elite world class distance paddler I can recall that is of the strong and powerful build is Booth..... and without knowing his vo2 max, we don't know how relevant that is. The rest are small and skinny. The right type of physiology is starting to assert itself. It's about functional levels of strength.
5) Get your weight down. It's a power to weight issue, not a strength to weight issue. It's no good being able to apply huge levels of force if your cadence drops too far to apply it.
6) Does weight training have benefits ? Sure. I do it. However, unless you have imbalance or you're getting older (and I acknowledge your point Eagle - its why I weight train for general health purposes) and if your training time is limited, it would be better spent on the water.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 12:58:50 AM by ukgm »
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ukgm

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #141 on: March 21, 2017, 12:19:31 AM »
Agree with Eagle here. Strength/weight ratio is very important. Squat 315 and deadlift 400 and you will paddle faster. Want to train endurance- lift weights in 20+ plus rep range and develop your slow twitch muscles. Running or whatever else 99% of folks are doing to improve their endurance will mostly lead to muscle loss/skinny fat look. It is a proven fact. Funny that people buy into the idea of cardio training - where as heart is the most trained muscle in our bodies and it does not need more training. Work on building more metachondria ;)

I think people are using strength and power synonymously which makes this discussion confusing. We need to be talking about power (a product of applied force and cadence). Most of the statements above feel a bit like 1970's sports science. For a start:

1) its not just about the heart, its about aerobic economy. Plus once you get past 35 seconds, an activity is powered mainly by your aerobic system. Your ATP and high force isn't much use past the first 6 or 7 seconds and specificity is needed so if the weights training you are doing is applied at a slower rate than paddling, its not going to contribute helpfully.
2) Peoples vo2 max for a start declines after 30 and gets worse after 40. This requires aerobic orientated fitness work to hang onto.
3) Show me any proof that squats and deadlifts lead to faster paddling.
4) Be aware of natural selection - if you want to look at anecdotes alone,, the only elite world class distance paddler that is of the strong and powerful build is Booth..... and without knowing his vo2 max, we don't know how relevant that is. The rest are small and skinny.
5) Get your weight down. It's a power to weight issue, not a strength to weight issue. It's no good being able to apply huge levels of force if your cadence drops too far to apply it. So what if it makes you skinny ? You're paddling for performance, not for vanity.
6) Does weight training have benefits ? Sure. I do it. However, unless you have imbalance or you're getting older (and I acknowledge your point Eagle - its why I weight train for general health purposes), your training time would be better spent on the water.

On this subject, for those looking to do weights, I would also recommend faster lifting - i.e. being able to move weights with faster speeds - and plyometrics too. For those in their 20's-40's, training should be specific to the needs of the sport.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 12:56:51 AM by ukgm »
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ukgm

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #142 on: March 21, 2017, 12:22:35 AM »
Was thinking that the aerobic side of the equation was a given from my perspective.  Most I know are fit and have really good endurance.  Many run marathons and ultras.  You can see in the images posted that many lose huge amts of muscle mass over time.  Normally that muscle mass is swapped directly for fat mass.  And huge weight gain.  That is just the reality for the huge majority.  Sarcopenia and fat gain.

Certainly those that have poor endurance need to ramp that aspect up as well.  With 70% OW or obese -> says a lot about the health of the majority.  Main concern really is fat mass loss then muscle retention then endurance.  No need for endurance if there is no muscle mass.  Little Finn is a good example of small muscle mass with very low body fat and good endurance.  Once that boy fills out with more muscle mass -> he will probs be a major force.

Until then -> his low body fat and aerobic endurance will only take him so far.  But obviously every circumstance is different.  Some need muscle.  Some need endurance.  Most need to lose fat mass.  My wife has really good endurance and balance -> but lacks muscle mass for example.  So there is no definitive single answer.

I would suggest regular and consistent training of any kind would help the most. The problem is that paddlers who want to train go out for a paddle but often don't go out to train. I do take your point on muscle mass loss and age (it's why I do it) but I feel that many paddlers are assuming having more muscle is going to make them faster paddlers. No. Maximum development of their aerobic engine is going to make them faster.
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mr_proper

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #143 on: March 21, 2017, 01:51:38 AM »
Interesting discussion. I think I am not unfit with 52 years, 193 cm and 92 kg. I have enough strength, I can paddle at least 90 minutes with more than 90% of the maximum heart rate and am still slow. Seems also the lack of paddle technic to be.
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Area 10

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #144 on: March 21, 2017, 04:39:01 AM »
OK sports performance experts, can someone please explain to me how Kai Lenny did this?

http://www.supracer.com/video-kai-lenny-stand-up-paddleboarding-race/

It seems to me that something very important for understanding flat water short distance speed occurred here. I'm just not sure what. "Kai is a freak" might be true, but it's not an explanation.

yugi

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #145 on: March 21, 2017, 05:13:14 AM »
Itís called skillz.

Something I thought was remarkably missing from the conversation so far. Clearly skills are the factor that make the biggest difference in SUP racing.

BTW: Rider weight and height clearly are factors in what board can be ridden.

ukgm

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #146 on: March 21, 2017, 05:30:05 AM »
OK sports performance experts, can someone please explain to me how Kai Lenny did this?

http://www.supracer.com/video-kai-lenny-stand-up-paddleboarding-race/

It seems to me that something very important for understanding flat water short distance speed occurred here. I'm just not sure what. "Kai is a freak" might be true, but it's not an explanation.

Possibly that he has a well developed anaerobic threshold and is physiolgically biased to such short punchy efforts ? (his surfing background may well be a clue). A 4 minute effort is a vo2 max exhaustive test so that may well give an indication of his physiological profile. His stroke rate was very high which means he'd have a great vo2 max and level of efficency I would argue. Force increases isn't going to create the ability to up to a high cadence - it's aerobic conditioning.

He also has a very good power to weight by the looks of things.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 05:35:57 AM by ukgm »
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yugi

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #147 on: March 21, 2017, 05:34:42 AM »
...
Possibly that he has a well developed anaerobic threshold and is physiolgically biased to such short punchy efforts ? (his surfing background may well be a clue). A 4 minute effort is a vo2 max exhaustive test so that may well give an indication of his physiological profile.

...

Which would of course explain his wins in Molokai 2 Oahu

ukgm

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #148 on: March 21, 2017, 05:37:51 AM »
...
Possibly that he has a well developed anaerobic threshold and is physiolgically biased to such short punchy efforts ? (his surfing background may well be a clue). A 4 minute effort is a vo2 max exhaustive test so that may well give an indication of his physiological profile.

...

Which would of course explain his wins in Molokai 2 Oahu

Potentially. If you're fit, you're fit. Bear in mind an Olympic track cyclist racing over 3-4 minutes will still train for upto 6 hours and that will generate huge amounts of fitness. Bear in mind though that M2O has a major technical component so its not really an apples to apples comparison. It's pretty unusual for an athlete to be great at a 4 minute duration and not have that translate up to much longer durations.
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ukgm

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Re: A little speed testing SB AllStar 14x23 and other boards
« Reply #149 on: March 21, 2017, 05:54:31 AM »
Itís called skillz.

Clearly skills are the factor that make the biggest difference in SUP racing.


I'd be generally interested to know what this is based on. If you're talking surf races or downwinders, I can understand. If you're talking uncomplicated distance races, sure technique is a major factor. However, in a sport that isn't well developed yet, the events duration and physiological requirements will mean that in the short term, fitness differences are going to sort the pecking order out. You can't be a world class distance paddler any more with an average physiology. It's certainly the biggest issue in weekend warrior races I feel. Whether they want to or not isn't important but many paddlers just aren't putting the miles in.
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