Author Topic: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]  (Read 344489 times)

SUP Leave

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 530
    • View Profile
Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1110 on: March 23, 2017, 05:19:18 PM »

Good stuff Tom and PDX.

You guys are giving the patent argument for socialized healthcare. My argument is that as a culture and civilization we as individuals hold ourselves to a higher standard, buy insurance, pay our bills, and donate to charities. Your argument is that we are already paying for the poor and sick through rising costs at hospitals and tax funded subsidies (charity at gunpoint), so why not make sure everyone gets pretend insurance (because that is what it is when it is forced). It is obviously a persuasive argument because that is where we are headed.  So if that is the direction, then eliminate health insurance altogether. Make hospitals just like police and fire - paid for out of your taxes without a bunch of phony insurance.

The unsaid part of the argument is that the government knows what is best for us. I wouldn't let Paul Ryan walk my dog.

The argument of me coughing on you is a single-episode type of occurrence that while entirely possible, can't possibly hold up as an argument for why we need to mandate insurance. I am fully insured and I won't go to the Dr. until I am at deaths door. Health insurance coverage does not protect me from you. As you said the law does in some ways -  I mean people are trying to sue McDonalds for making them fat. Having health insurance doesn't make you healthier, it just makes you insured. Being educated makes you healthy, having a cop arrest someone who is going to mug you makes you healthy, being saved from a burning building makes you healthy.

The argument about access to health insurance is just weird to me. We already provide access to health care, PDX is right if you have an axe in your head, you can walk into any ER and get fixed. If you can't pay, the hospital eats it, and raises their rates to cover it. Hospitals in poor areas get subsidized for that kind of thing. Of course that makes the ER into a gigantic mess with people going there for primary care.

Real access to health insurance would mean that insurer's would want to insure me and try to get my business so that I could get the best program for me. Right now when we call our insurance salesperson. She is like "OK in your state and with your business size, you can get these 3 kinds of insurance, and they all cost $545 per employee. What would you like?" Which is my whole point - if you are on welfare you have aid, if you are on SS you have aid, if you are working poor you have to get on with company that provides health care. Since there are only 3 choices, there is really no competition or incentive to provide better or cheaper insurance.

Make paddleboarding great again!

pdxmike

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 6186
    • View Profile
Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1111 on: March 23, 2017, 06:27:50 PM »
SUP Leave--I agree with a lot of what you say.  I'm more libertarian than anything else--not a fan of government being involved in anything unless it's really necessary, so don't like the idea of more government involvement in health care. 

I work for myself so have my own insurance and can afford it, but many people cannot.  Costs are getting ridiculous.  It's like housing in cities where the median income household falls far short of the cost of median housing, and people are paying half or more of their income for crappy housing. But with healthcare, you can't solve that by moving.  Yes, you can (hopefully) find an employer who will pay your insurance, but you're still paying for it in the form of it being an enormous part of your compensation.  If you're paying half your income for housing, and a quarter (or at least some large amount) for health insurance, that doesn't leave much, and you don't have to be financially irresponsible or lazy to find yourself in that position.

You're right, the coughing argument isn't the important argument for mandating coverage. But the costs of insurance when only half the people are buying it is.  Or, you go towards universal coverage.

And like you said, we're already heavily subsidizing healthcare, either through hospitals being subsidized for providing care, subsidizing insurance, etc.  It's nowhere near an unmeddled market.

Even the idea of shopping around for medical procedure costs and finding the best price isn't anything like buying a shirt or a car.  It's one thing if it's a planned, straightforward procedure you're planning ahead for, but lots of care isn't for those things.  You can't say, "Wait, hold off on that tourniquet, I want to shop around!"  Neither can a doctor always know how much something will cost ahead of time. 

Basically it's a mess, and the old ideas like "you could afford insurance if you didn't eat out (or upgrade your phone) so often" no longer work (and not saying you or anyone else here is saying that).   A lot of people are also at the point they feel it's not even worth trying, and they have some validity to that position.




PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 25864
    • View Profile
Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1112 on: March 23, 2017, 07:02:41 PM »
I think most folks looking at this issue look at solutions in a scope they can feel comfortable with. 3.2 Trillion dollars is a bit unimaginable, but you have to grasp that before you can think constructively about solutions.



Effectively double what any other country pays as a percent of GDP, and triple what they pay per capita. Yeah, I know, Switzerland at 12 percent isn't half of the US at 17. Except Switzerland has a GDP of 700 billion. We ought to see a quantity discount, and we don't.

The question "why" has a lot of answers. Some of them centered around the simple fact that the USA is the technology feeder for pretty much everywhere else. That doesn't mean all the innovation happens here, in fact, the Rest of World innovation certainly outstrips the USA. But if you are going to actually use those innovations and make money from them, then you have to filter them through the USA, because that's where the money is.

A second answer is the expectation level of US patients insured by their company. These patients represent a big part of the total expenditure. Do any of them wait for an MRI or other expensive diagnostic procedure? Absolutely not. In diagnosing my double vision, the ophthalmologist said "the standard of care for double vision used to be, "wait nine weeks to see if it cleared up, and then do an MRI. But now we do an MRI right away because if we don't, and there's a malignancy, we get sued, and we lose."

Patients in a single-payer healthcare system rarely have access to lawsuits for malpractice. Even when the standard of care is deficient. One of the costs of doing business if you want your insurance to be half of what you currently pay--you can't win the lottery in court.

You can make a mathematically reasonable case that the difference between healthcare in the UK and the US is mostly malpractice lawsuits. the numbers get reasonably close--okay, not really, but the curve looks similar. Shooting lawyers might be one of the most useful solutions. I suggest we start with lawyers who are politicians. You might wonder how long this idea has been around. Certainly since Shakespeare wrote Henry VI in 1591.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 07:18:27 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 25864
    • View Profile
Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1113 on: March 23, 2017, 07:54:44 PM »
Looking for some good news? There's a 48 percent drop in planned coal plants worldwide this year. The free market might actually be more important than government in saving the environment. I read a somewhat convoluted study recently that makes a case for alternative energy already being cheaper than electricity from thermal plants if government subsidies for fuel and transport are eliminated. The funky part of the study is transportation, claiming some big subsidies for coal transport (trains) and pipelines that I couldn't verify. I think the study is overly optimistic, but the gap is narrowing. Add smartgrids and the world changes pretty suddenly.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

headmount

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 5750
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1114 on: March 23, 2017, 11:32:03 PM »
There's a word tossed around when speaking of Russians, 'oligarchy'.  It kinda sounds nice, like  monarchy or something regal.  The reality is the Russian government is run by an ex KGB who is a virtual mob boss of a country full of heavy duty gangsters.  These guys are no better than Columbian drug lords and a big part of their business is laundering rubles into dollars.

This pic is from the Zone.

johnysmoke

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
    • View Profile
Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1115 on: March 24, 2017, 07:03:37 AM »
Looking for some good news? There's a 48 percent drop in planned coal plants worldwide this year. The free market might actually be more important than government in saving the environment. I read a somewhat convoluted study recently that makes a case for alternative energy already being cheaper than electricity from thermal plants if government subsidies for fuel and transport are eliminated. The funky part of the study is transportation, claiming some big subsidies for coal transport (trains) and pipelines that I couldn't verify. I think the study is overly optimistic, but the gap is narrowing. Add smartgrids and the world changes pretty suddenly.
That is encouraging, have also seen that around recently.
Saw this floating around recently, not sure if it's bs or not.
http://www.physics-astronomy.com/2015/02/lockheed-martins-new-compact-fusion.html?m=1#.WNUK0iMpBnH
SIC F14
Bark Eliminator
C4 Beachboy

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 25864
    • View Profile
Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1116 on: March 24, 2017, 07:56:29 AM »
How come you get the good ads? All I get is Makai, KeNalu, SUPSports and Erectile Dysfunction ads.

Smoke--no doubt we'll have fusion generation some day. But it's probably still a long way off. Cool concept though. High beta is ultimate goal of all the fusion research. Certainly not bullshit, but as the senor scientist says--high risk, high payoff project. Meaning it might not work. But if it does, yeah, the world changes quickly. Interesting that they are viewing the gas turbine plants as partners. That means they don't plan to use the heat to generate steam as the first step--they'd output superheated air and spin the turbine. A lot of the newer gas turbine plants are combined cycle, meaning they spin the hot air turbine like a jet engine, then take the waste heat and make steam to spin a steam turbine. There are 100 to 500 mw gas turbines all over the place. Replacing the gas source with hot air direct from fusion would be the quickest way to implement fusion generation. Very cool, very efficient, very cost-effective.

These skunk works guys are badass.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 08:12:27 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

mrbig

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2465
    • View Profile
Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1117 on: March 24, 2017, 08:05:44 AM »
Controlled thermo nuclear fusion. My junior high science fair project. It's just around the corner.

On another note there are several US startups in China, our NRC regs make next to impossible to do research on cleaner, safer fission, that are developing and testing completely different fission technology..
Let it come to you..
SMIK 9'2" Hipster Mini Mal
SMIK 8'8" Short Mac Freo Rainbow Bridge
SMIK 8'4" Hipster Twin
King's 8'2" Accelerator SharkBoy

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 25864
    • View Profile
Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1118 on: March 24, 2017, 08:21:54 AM »
Big--yup, friends of mine are involved in several, as is my former boss, who I guess counts as a friend. NRC regs are tough, regs alone means perhaps 20 times less for the cost of prototyping in China vs. here in the US. But if you're going to sell them to the USA then it's kind of a pay me now or pay me later thing. Good designs for high-safety, low diversion potential fission plants have been around a long time, there just hasn't been a real market. In theory, you could build them without a containment structure and locate them almost anywhere. In practice, no fricken' way in the US of A.

China is probably the market.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

pdxmike

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 6186
    • View Profile
Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1119 on: March 24, 2017, 10:02:07 AM »
This pic is from the Zone.
Wow, I can almost hear her saying, "Moose and squarel".

headmount

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 5750
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1120 on: March 24, 2017, 12:46:15 PM »
From David Brooks, conservative columnist and very good writer... on the current Ryan/Trumpcare health care bill

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/24/opinion/the-trump-elite-like-the-old-elite-but-worse.html

J-Bird

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 373
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1121 on: March 24, 2017, 12:59:19 PM »
Natasha, Dahling.

SUP Leave

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 530
    • View Profile
Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1122 on: March 24, 2017, 02:22:20 PM »
The healthcare bill has become Trumps first big political failure. He is going to come out blaming everyone, even though Ryan is on his side, I got a feeling Ryan and Preibus will be the first two under the bus - Bannon is going to skate scot-free. I feel like Ryan will get his first tweet from TD over the weekend.

Good for the house conservatives standing up to the pile of garbage of the AHCA. Bad, for house conservatives - Trump is going to start working from the other side of the aisle. I would not be surprised to see our first nationalized healthcare bill to be called Trumpcare. It will be hilarious to see people on the left who want nationalized healthcare begin to hate it because of the person pushing for it.

Trump has said today - he is going to let O'care implode and then pick up the pieces after the D's start to come to him, but I have a feeling that he is already starting with the D's. He is going to try to be the savior of the health of the country - staying true to his (and Bannon's) populist roots.
Make paddleboarding great again!

headmount

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 5750
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1123 on: March 24, 2017, 02:28:28 PM »
The healthcare bill has become Trumps first big political failure. He is going to come out blaming everyone, even though Ryan is on his side, I got a feeling Ryan and Preibus will be the first two under the bus - Bannon is going to skate scot-free. I feel like Ryan will get his first tweet from TD over the weekend.

Good for the house conservatives standing up to the pile of garbage of the AHCA. Bad, for house conservatives - Trump is going to start working from the other side of the aisle. I would not be surprised to see our first nationalized healthcare bill to be called Trumpcare. It will be hilarious to see people on the left who want nationalized healthcare begin to hate it because of the person pushing for it.

Trump has said today - he is going to let O'care implode and then pick up the pieces after the D's start to come to him, but I have a feeling that he is already starting with the D's. He is going to try to be the savior of the health of the country - staying true to his (and Bannon's) populist roots.

What about the immigration ban reject?  That was the first failure.  "You'll be winning so much, you won't be able to stand it."

Area 10

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4057
    • View Profile
Re: What a got damn shitshow. [warning politics]
« Reply #1124 on: March 24, 2017, 02:46:30 PM »
Has Trump had ANY successes yet?

 


SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal